People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason.
The problem people have is that LGBT characters need a "reason" to be present in the first place. How come you don't need a reason to be straight?
Because, at least in the United States, roughly 3.8% of Americans self-identify as LGBT. 3.8%. Think on that number. Now, when you think about developers adding new party members, characters, etc, being like "Yeah! We have a transgender character and 2 gays, 3 bisexuals, and a lesbian!) I'm thinking... wow. Diversity quotas are so high that we're massively over-representing LGBT, here.
According to the 2015 Gallup poll that measured the amount of population that identify as LGBT, Americans *think* that 23% of the population is LGBT. Again, massive disparity from the 3.8% reality. Could this be from the massive diversity push in media? Ensuring that LGBT characters are present in nearly every game/movie/tv show/book? Possibly!
So this brings me back to the point of "why do LGBT characters need a reason to be present?", and "why don't you need a reason to be straight?". So, why? Because statistics! Statistically, if you have 20 available party members in a video game, if we're going by IRL numbers, approximately 0-1 of them would be LGBT.
So, to answer the first question of why they need a reason, it's because they statistically wouldn't likely be present. So if you're going to add an LGBT character, give them a heck of a reason to be there! Write them well, and for the love of Tempus, don't make the entire party herosexual like Dragon Age 2 did, because it's jarring and out of place.
And to answer the second question of "How come you don't need a reason to be straight?" Again, statistics. If 96.2% of people are statistically straight, it's very likely that, when you walk into the local tavern searching for some extra muscle to bring along on your journey, a vast, vast majority of those adventurers would, in fact, be straight.
Conceded. Say someone disagrees with you. Does he not has the right to state "I don't think a classic game is the proper medium to encourage that argument"? Bear in mind I am not saying you have to agree or in any way be persuaded by said argument or to even address it. The question remains, why doesn't said people have the right to state their opinion on the matter?
If the developers didn't want the discussion to be about it (which I will continue to maintain is mostly not) why did they made those statements in an interview? Why put it into the game at all?
Freedom of speech goes both ways: If you want to make these points in the game, in the PR and press, you're welcome to. You also must accept there will be resistance, dissent and different opinions. You don't get to present this arguments uncontested, a reasonable person would address the arguments something I see you're attempting to do. Yet look at how many people are telling me to "give up" and calling dissent "religious bigots" because they cannot concede someone might disagree.
-Yes, that person does have that right to dissent and say that BG isn't the right vehicle for social/political statements to be made.
-Yes, I think Amber Scott wanted this discussion, otherwise she wouldn't have made the statements she made.
-Yes, both sides have Freedom of Speech, for sure. Those in favor have that right to support Beamdog, those who don't have the right to criticize, and hopefully everyone learns something from the whole ordeal (LOLDOUBTFUL).
The liberal left is generally open to the LBGT community and most liberals are agnostic or atheist (though there are religious liberals as well).
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason. Thanks to quasi-religious people who think it is a "moral imperative" to do so.
Yes, there may be many liberal who also hate how the LBGT material was presented. And they might doc the game a point or two in their review for that.
I doubt it is liberals giving the game 0's or 1's in huge numbers because of the LBGT content. Minusing a point or two for the presentation of the LBGT content is fair and many liberals may do just that.
Giving the ENTIRE game a 1 or 0 because it has LBGT content shows that you are most likely against the LBGT community for religious or political reasons. Most likely you are a conservative Christian Republican voter if you give the game a 0 because it has a trans character.
How? I already showed you people have other reasons for the low rating, mostly technical issues and bad writing. You're just begging the question using ridiculous stereotypes when again, I haven't seen a SINGLE review even mentioning religion when we know religious fundamentalists have no problem in constantly mentioning it. Please stop engaging in baseless character assassination.
Most reviews I've seen giving the game a 1 or a 0 mention the LBGT content. Most liberals aren't so offended by LBGT content to give the ENTIRE GAME a 0. If a liberal found the content presented poorly, they might minus a point or two from their review.
But people against the LBGT agenda for religious or political reasons are giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 because of their religious or political reviews (they are against the LBGT agenda for either political or religious reasons).
As I've already stated multiple times, there are MANY fair criticisms of the game.
But 90% of the reviews with a 1 or 0 SPECIFICALLY mention the trans character or LBGT content because they are OFFENDED by that content for religious or political reasons.
1) Actually is not most: it's some but among the most popular reviews, specially on steam, only some even mention it or mention it only to point out that they do not care about it or have issues with it.
2) Those who DO specifically mention it is usually very clearly as it pertains to poor writing and characterization that feels overall out of place in the context of this game. You can disagree with their view surely, but most people make it clear that they have no problem with the LGBT community and some of us are critical while being part of said "community" by virtue of sexual orientation or identity
3) 95% of statistics are usually made up on the spot. So I am afraid that I must see your empirical data which you either created fantastically fast or I must take your 90% estimation with a grain of salt, after all I previously conceded that I haven't read or counted all reviews (just what I considered significative, feel free to disagree) and you likely haven't either.
4) Disregard 1, 2 and 3. You're still presenting a false equivalency here: just because some people might not like LGBT content does not automatically or remotely make them conservative or religious or even political.
Nobody is offended at the character itself. You simply cannot offer evidence to the contrary and since you're making the extraordinary claim that you know they're offended and not only that but specifically because of religious of political reasons, you really have to do better than stating it without evidence, otherwise you're just as lacking in logical reasoning as the religious people you seem to have such a distaste for with your empty claims that replace "God exists because I say so" with "Bigots exist because I say so" with nothing to back such a claim at all.
Just give it up already. It's already obvious what the bigoted trolls are doing. Your paper-thin arguments trying to support such bigotry are a joke.
Let's hope these bigoted trolls don't ruin BG3 for us. Bunch of f*cking cry-babies, I swear...
Have you ever though that you may be a bigot?
I am a bigot when it comes to trolls attempted to sabotage the possibility of BG3. All such trolls are scum.
I hate internet trolls. There! I said it! I want all internet trolls to burn in hell!!!!!
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason.
The problem people have is that LGBT characters need a "reason" to be present in the first place. How come you don't need a reason to be straight?
Wrong. The problem is when a character shouts "I'M LGBT+!" without it having any affect on the plot. None of the other characters say "I'M STRAIGHT!" at any point, you're just assuming that they're straight / gay / whatever orientation you assume. As has been stated many, many times, people aren't upset by the characters existence, but by the horrible way it was put in the game.
Uh, no. It's not wrong. The person I was responding to (and others) literally just said that LGBT characters need a reason to exist. Just because you're not saying it doesn't mean nobody else is.
And again, how would you know the character is trans if they didn't mention it?
Having it be relevant to the story is "having a reason". Derp. As for "how would you know"? Again, if it's not relevant to the plot, IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE MENTIONED. It doesn't matter if you're mentioning that they're gay, trans, Muslim, Satanist, fundamentalist Christian, etc - unless it's relevant to the plot, you do not put political content into a game unless you want people to be annoyed. I don't think Beamdog can afford for SoD to flop, but it looks like that's where things are heading due to 1) the horribly buggy release and 2) them insulting anyone who isn't happy with the game, regardless of their stated reason.
The liberal left is generally open to the LBGT community and most liberals are agnostic or atheist (though there are religious liberals as well).
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason. Thanks to quasi-religious people who think it is a "moral imperative" to do so.
Yes, there may be many liberal who also hate how the LBGT material was presented. And they might doc the game a point or two in their review for that.
I doubt it is liberals giving the game 0's or 1's in huge numbers because of the LBGT content. Minusing a point or two for the presentation of the LBGT content is fair and many liberals may do just that.
Giving the ENTIRE game a 1 or 0 because it has LBGT content shows that you are most likely against the LBGT community for religious or political reasons. Most likely you are a conservative Christian Republican voter if you give the game a 0 because it has a trans character.
How? I already showed you people have other reasons for the low rating, mostly technical issues and bad writing. You're just begging the question using ridiculous stereotypes when again, I haven't seen a SINGLE review even mentioning religion when we know religious fundamentalists have no problem in constantly mentioning it. Please stop engaging in baseless character assassination.
Most reviews I've seen giving the game a 1 or a 0 mention the LBGT content. Most liberals aren't so offended by LBGT content to give the ENTIRE GAME a 0. If a liberal found the content presented poorly, they might minus a point or two from their review.
But people against the LBGT agenda for religious or political reasons are giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 because of their religious or political reviews (they are against the LBGT agenda for either political or religious reasons).
As I've already stated multiple times, there are MANY fair criticisms of the game.
But 90% of the reviews with a 1 or 0 SPECIFICALLY mention the trans character or LBGT content because they are OFFENDED by that content for religious or political reasons.
1) Actually is not most: it's some but among the most popular reviews, specially on steam, only some even mention it or mention it only to point out that they do not care about it or have issues with it.
2) Those who DO specifically mention it is usually very clearly as it pertains to poor writing and characterization that feels overall out of place in the context of this game. You can disagree with their view surely, but most people make it clear that they have no problem with the LGBT community and some of us are critical while being part of said "community" by virtue of sexual orientation or identity
3) 95% of statistics are usually made up on the spot. So I am afraid that I must see your empirical data which you either created fantastically fast or I must take your 90% estimation with a grain of salt, after all I previously conceded that I haven't read or counted all reviews (just what I considered significative, feel free to disagree) and you likely haven't either.
4) Disregard 1, 2 and 3. You're still presenting a false equivalency here: just because some people might not like LGBT content does not automatically or remotely make them conservative or religious or even political.
Nobody is offended at the character itself. You simply cannot offer evidence to the contrary and since you're making the extraordinary claim that you know they're offended and not only that but specifically because of religious of political reasons, you really have to do better than stating it without evidence, otherwise you're just as lacking in logical reasoning as the religious people you seem to have such a distaste for with your empty claims that replace "God exists because I say so" with "Bigots exist because I say so" with nothing to back such a claim at all.
Just give it up already. It's already obvious what the bigoted trolls are doing. Your paper-thin arguments trying to support such bigotry are a joke.
Let's hope these bigoted trolls don't ruin BG3 for us. Bunch of f*cking cry-babies, I swear...
I do not subscribe to "listen and believe" tactics. I am also mostly unfaced by pointless name calling as it serves only to deflate your own arguments.
So, care to explain how people are bigoted trolls because they mostly state "This game has tons of bugs, multiplayer barely works, and the shoe-horn an agenda with poor writing that doesn't lands in the context of the game"
Assuming most people mention all 3 things, how do you go from "The political statement seems like it cause of bad writing" to "I am a Christian/Muslim biggot who thinks transexuals are evil sinners henceforth I am downvoting"
Do you answer all questions on views you don't agree with simply by saying "These bigoted trolls are harassing me" without actually addressing any of their points all of the time? Do you really have so little confidence in the strength of your position that you can't even coherently explain why this people, who NEVER MENTION RELIGION AT ALL are religious bigots and conservatives and whatever other term you want to unfairly and baselessly throw around?
If anything, you're showing how you're willing to shoe horn the arguments to be only about politics (as much as the developers are doing so) instead of actually addressing honest criticism like this game it's just overall shitty, buggy, poorly written.
Almost every review I've seen giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. They are giving it a 1 or 0 because they don't agree with the LBGT agenda. This is obvious for all to see.
There are also legitimate reviews out there that are not positive about the game, but the VAST majority are trolls attacking the game because they don't support the LBGT community. This is obvious. Quit pretending this isn't the case - you are not convincing anyone (not even yourself).
Citing the content does not equate with being a bigot or against the LGBT community. Saying it's "quite obvious" isn't an argument. Most people actually do not involve themselves in gender politics at all for good or ill. They're respectful of others, even support gay marriage, equal rights. They just think there's a time and a place for those arguments and do NOT agree that a classic game really conducts said discussions or points, particularly when it is in their opinion done poorly.
So as much as you dislike the idea, I do not think must people want to be dragged into this discussion and it is precisely because they get called "religious bigots" that "hate the LGBT community" since it's easier (yet highly intellectually dishonest) to lump all of your opposition together within a nice niche instead of accepting some people disagree with how it was handled in the game
And again, how would you know the character is trans if they didn't mention it?
They can mention it, but I'd personally like to see some trust established in the MC and party, IMO. Perhaps if the party's reputation is high enough, and they do a quest for Mizrena, or they establish benevolence through a series of dialogue options, the player is rewarded with finding out that Mizrena is transgender.
However, if the player's reputation is more evil, or if the player is rude to Mizrena in dialogue, she won't share the reason behind why her birth name no longer suited her. These would be more subtle touches, and to me, I'd appreciate that.
Faerun isn't always a nice place, just like our world. Undoubtedly there's racism, sexism, and I'm sure there is some measure of transphobia as well. I'd imagine Mizrena, were she a well written character, would want to play her cards closer to her chest, in case the MC and party are a malevolent crew.
Hope this clears up that question, and why I think Mizrena was poorly written.
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason.
The problem people have is that LGBT characters need a "reason" to be present in the first place. How come you don't need a reason to be straight?
Because, at least in the United States, roughly 3.8% of Americans self-identify as LGBT. 3.8%. Think on that number. Now, when you think about developers adding new party members, characters, etc, being like "Yeah! We have a transgender character and 2 gays, 3 bisexuals, and a lesbian!) I'm thinking... wow. Diversity quotas are so high that we're massively over-representing LGBT, here.
According to the 2015 Gallup poll that measured the amount of population that identify as LGBT, Americans *think* that 23% of the population is LGBT. Again, massive disparity from the 3.8% reality. Could this be from the massive diversity push in media? Ensuring that LGBT characters are present in nearly every game/movie/tv show/book? Possibly!
So this brings me back to the point of "why do LGBT characters need a reason to be present?", and "why don't you need a reason to be straight?". So, why? Because statistics! Statistically, if you have 20 available party members in a video game, if we're going by IRL numbers, approximately 0-1 of them would be LGBT.
So, to answer the first question of why they need a reason, it's because they statistically wouldn't likely be present. So if you're going to add an LGBT character, give them a heck of a reason to be there! Write them well, and for the love of Tempus, don't make the entire party herosexual like Dragon Age 2 did, because it's jarring and out of place.
And to answer the second question of "How come you don't need a reason to be straight?" Again, statistics. If 96.2% of people are statistically straight, it's very likely that, when you walk into the local tavern searching for some extra muscle to bring along on your journey, a vast, vast majority of those adventurers would, in fact, be straight.
Conceded. Say someone disagrees with you. Does he not has the right to state "I don't think a classic game is the proper medium to encourage that argument"? Bear in mind I am not saying you have to agree or in any way be persuaded by said argument or to even address it. The question remains, why doesn't said people have the right to state their opinion on the matter?
If the developers didn't want the discussion to be about it (which I will continue to maintain is mostly not) why did they made those statements in an interview? Why put it into the game at all?
Freedom of speech goes both ways: If you want to make these points in the game, in the PR and press, you're welcome to. You also must accept there will be resistance, dissent and different opinions. You don't get to present this arguments uncontested, a reasonable person would address the arguments something I see you're attempting to do. Yet look at how many people are telling me to "give up" and calling dissent "religious bigots" because they cannot concede someone might disagree.
-Yes, that person does have that right to dissent and say that BG isn't the right vehicle for social/political statements to be made.
-Yes, I think Amber Scott wanted this discussion, otherwise she wouldn't have made the statements she made.
-Yes, both sides have Freedom of Speech, for sure. Those in favor have that right to support Beamdog, those who don't have the right to criticize, and hopefully everyone learns something from the whole ordeal (LOLDOUBTFUL).
Doubtful surely, but if this exchange between us shows me anything is that it is not impossible.
Almost every review I've seen giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. They are giving it a 1 or 0 because they don't agree with the LBGT agenda. This is obvious for all to see.
There are also legitimate reviews out there that are not positive about the game, but the VAST majority are trolls attacking the game because they don't support the LBGT community. This is obvious. Quit pretending this isn't the case - you are not convincing anyone (not even yourself).
Just because people are opposed to politics being awkwardly crammed into a 20 year old game does not make them troll. That just makes them someone who wants a consistent experience without having unnecessary political bullshit put in just so that some jackass at the developer can feel "special".
Having it be relevant to the story is "having a reason". Derp.
Again, do I need to bring up all the crap people say and do in Bioware games that has nothing to do with the story?
What does Salvanas have to do with the story? All he does is talk about girls and hit on female party members. He has no bearing on anything, so what gives him the right to walk around being all straight and whatnot?
Again, if it's not relevant to the plot, IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE MENTIONED. It doesn't matter if you're mentioning that they're gay, trans, Muslim, Satanist, fundamentalist Christian, etc - unless it's relevant to the plot, you do not put political content into a game unless you want people to be annoyed.
Huh. I didn't realise that just existing as a gay person was a political thing now. Has anyone told them?
The liberal left is generally open to the LBGT community and most liberals are agnostic or atheist (though there are religious liberals as well).
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason. Thanks to quasi-religious people who think it is a "moral imperative" to do so.
Yes, there may be many liberal who also hate how the LBGT material was presented. And they might doc the game a point or two in their review for that.
I doubt it is liberals giving the game 0's or 1's in huge numbers because of the LBGT content. Minusing a point or two for the presentation of the LBGT content is fair and many liberals may do just that.
Giving the ENTIRE game a 1 or 0 because it has LBGT content shows that you are most likely against the LBGT community for religious or political reasons. Most likely you are a conservative Christian Republican voter if you give the game a 0 because it has a trans character.
How? I already showed you people have other reasons for the low rating, mostly technical issues and bad writing. You're just begging the question using ridiculous stereotypes when again, I haven't seen a SINGLE review even mentioning religion when we know religious fundamentalists have no problem in constantly mentioning it. Please stop engaging in baseless character assassination.
Most reviews I've seen giving the game a 1 or a 0 mention the LBGT content. Most liberals aren't so offended by LBGT content to give the ENTIRE GAME a 0. If a liberal found the content presented poorly, they might minus a point or two from their review.
But people against the LBGT agenda for religious or political reasons are giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 because of their religious or political reviews (they are against the LBGT agenda for either political or religious reasons).
As I've already stated multiple times, there are MANY fair criticisms of the game.
But 90% of the reviews with a 1 or 0 SPECIFICALLY mention the trans character or LBGT content because they are OFFENDED by that content for religious or political reasons.
1) Actually is not most: it's some but among the most popular reviews, specially on steam, only some even mention it or mention it only to point out that they do not care about it or have issues with it.
2) Those who DO specifically mention it is usually very clearly as it pertains to poor writing and characterization that feels overall out of place in the context of this game. You can disagree with their view surely, but most people make it clear that they have no problem with the LGBT community and some of us are critical while being part of said "community" by virtue of sexual orientation or identity
3) 95% of statistics are usually made up on the spot. So I am afraid that I must see your empirical data which you either created fantastically fast or I must take your 90% estimation with a grain of salt, after all I previously conceded that I haven't read or counted all reviews (just what I considered significative, feel free to disagree) and you likely haven't either.
4) Disregard 1, 2 and 3. You're still presenting a false equivalency here: just because some people might not like LGBT content does not automatically or remotely make them conservative or religious or even political.
Nobody is offended at the character itself. You simply cannot offer evidence to the contrary and since you're making the extraordinary claim that you know they're offended and not only that but specifically because of religious of political reasons, you really have to do better than stating it without evidence, otherwise you're just as lacking in logical reasoning as the religious people you seem to have such a distaste for with your empty claims that replace "God exists because I say so" with "Bigots exist because I say so" with nothing to back such a claim at all.
Just give it up already. It's already obvious what the bigoted trolls are doing. Your paper-thin arguments trying to support such bigotry are a joke.
Let's hope these bigoted trolls don't ruin BG3 for us. Bunch of f*cking cry-babies, I swear...
I do not subscribe to "listen and believe" tactics. I am also mostly unfaced by pointless name calling as it serves only to deflate your own arguments.
So, care to explain how people are bigoted trolls because they mostly state "This game has tons of bugs, multiplayer barely works, and the shoe-horn an agenda with poor writing that doesn't lands in the context of the game"
Assuming most people mention all 3 things, how do you go from "The political statement seems like it cause of bad writing" to "I am a Christian/Muslim biggot who thinks transexuals are evil sinners henceforth I am downvoting"
Do you answer all questions on views you don't agree with simply by saying "These bigoted trolls are harassing me" without actually addressing any of their points all of the time? Do you really have so little confidence in the strength of your position that you can't even coherently explain why this people, who NEVER MENTION RELIGION AT ALL are religious bigots and conservatives and whatever other term you want to unfairly and baselessly throw around?
If anything, you're showing how you're willing to shoe horn the arguments to be only about politics (as much as the developers are doing so) instead of actually addressing honest criticism like this game it's just overall shitty, buggy, poorly written.
Almost every review I've seen giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. They are giving it a 1 or 0 because they don't agree with the LBGT agenda. This is obvious for all to see.
There are also legitimate reviews out there that are not positive about the game, but the VAST majority are trolls attacking the game because they don't support the LBGT community. This is obvious. Quit pretending this isn't the case - you are not convincing anyone (not even yourself).
Citing the content does not equate with being a bigot or against the LGBT community. Saying it's "quite obvious" isn't an argument. Most people actually do not involve themselves in gender politics at all for good or ill. They're respectful of others, even support gay marriage, equal rights. They just think there's a time and a place for those arguments and do NOT agree that a classic game really conducts said discussions or points, particularly when it is in their opinion done poorly.
So as much as you dislike the idea, I do not think must people want to be dragged into this discussion and it is precisely because they get called "religious bigots" that "hate the LGBT community" since it's easier (yet highly intellectually dishonest) to lump all of your opposition together within a nice niche instead of accepting some people disagree with how it was handled in the game
Pike down Screech. I've heard enough of your whining already.
Yes, there are legitimate criticisms of the game.
However, there are a LARGE number of non-legitimate reviews giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 and SPECIFICALLY citing the LBGT content as the reason for the negative review. Use your eyeballs and read the reviews. This point cannot be argued - it is there for everyone to see. Most reviews giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. Just go look!
Now quit bothering me Screech. I am only stating what is obvious.
Disclaimer: I haven't actually bought SoD, nor am I really planning to at least until the major bugs are ironed out. I'm commenting only on the screenshots/arguments put out so far.
That said, some of these arguments are really spurious. In BG1, we have the totally-not-4th-wall-breaking Maple Willow Aspen who goes on a rant about her name as well. And literally blows up if you ask a question. So complaints that a character talks about him/herself when asked about his/her name are weird, to say the least.
Now that I think about it, though I've never changed my name, sometimes after introducing myself I go into the history of my weird last name (Anglicization of an Asian surname. Britain colonized EVERYTHING, it seems...) just because it's freaking acceptable smalltalk. I did this in an interview two days ago, and it didn't seem odd whatsoever to either me or the person interviewing me.
IMO, this is really a non-issue. Even, maybe especially as a Christian, I can disagree with choices and positions of others and still acknowledge them as human beings (or other race, as this is in fact a fantasy game.) A bit more upset with Jaheira and Safana changes, but that's more because my policy is to respect characters someone else made.
Did anyone else catch how deftly the haters pivoted from "it's bad because the game is trying to force an agenda of tolerance toward transgender people on me" to "it's bad because the game didn't do a good enough job pushing an agenda of tolerance toward transgender people" ?
That is some grade-A trolling, there. Pull up a seat, everyone - this is going to be a good show.
Believe me, as a pivot point, I feel it. It's a mix of 'they shouldn't have done it at all' and 'they should have done it better'.
I can't help but feel that if people were truly outraged not over the character's inclusion but rather the method of inclusion, they would be making suggestions on how to change it so the trans character is included respectively. Everyone who's slamming it hasn't even thought that maybe the developer would be willing to change it, especially if there were good suggestions.
Of course, it's human nature to belly ache rather than solve and improve? -_-
Understandeable sentiment, yet these reviews are usually short and consise, not the best place to address that, i.e. I only gave an example on this thread from Witcher 3 about one such masterfully done character. While I do not expect the scope of this DLC to be even close to what CDProjektRed did, the writing of that hunter NPC character however was actually something that could have easily be done here to organically introduce the fact that this character was transexual.
I understand that there still would have been criticism, a lot of criticism in fact. However I would honestly be on the other side of this argument if it was done better and if people were still fixed on it (for as much as they are, since there's PLENTY of technical issues criticism too)
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason.
The problem people have is that LGBT characters need a "reason" to be present in the first place. How come you don't need a reason to be straight?
Wrong. The problem is when a character shouts "I'M LGBT+!" without it having any affect on the plot. None of the other characters say "I'M STRAIGHT!" at any point, you're just assuming that they're straight / gay / whatever orientation you assume. As has been stated many, many times, people aren't upset by the characters existence, but by the horrible way it was put in the game.
Uh, no. It's not wrong. The person I was responding to (and others) literally just said that LGBT characters need a reason to exist. Just because you're not saying it doesn't mean nobody else is.
And again, how would you know the character is trans if they didn't mention it?
Having it be relevant to the story is "having a reason". Derp. As for "how would you know"? Again, if it's not relevant to the plot, IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE MENTIONED.
Absolute disagree. There is a thing called 'world-building' and it involves making the player immersed in the world that they're adventuring in. It remains in question if Beamdog achieved this with Mizrena (I vote no, she's poorly done.), but suggesting that the world needs to bend around the will of the plot and only the plot is a farce.
We don't always have to know that the blacksmith's daughter is a bit of a slut. We don't have to know that the nobleman serves food to the homeless in disguise. We don't have to know that the guard only went into service because he has a family back home and the harvest was bad.
But it's little touches like those that give the appearance of a living breathing world, and while we don't have to know it, our stories are more the richer for them.
The liberal left is generally open to the LBGT community and most liberals are agnostic or atheist (though there are religious liberals as well).
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason. Thanks to quasi-religious people who think it is a "moral imperative" to do so.
Yes, there may be many liberal who also hate how the LBGT material was presented. And they might doc the game a point or two in their review for that.
I doubt it is liberals giving the game 0's or 1's in huge numbers because of the LBGT content. Minusing a point or two for the presentation of the LBGT content is fair and many liberals may do just that.
Giving the ENTIRE game a 1 or 0 because it has LBGT content shows that you are most likely against the LBGT community for religious or political reasons. Most likely you are a conservative Christian Republican voter if you give the game a 0 because it has a trans character.
How? I already showed you people have other reasons for the low rating, mostly technical issues and bad writing. You're just begging the question using ridiculous stereotypes when again, I haven't seen a SINGLE review even mentioning religion when we know religious fundamentalists have no problem in constantly mentioning it. Please stop engaging in baseless character assassination.
Most reviews I've seen giving the game a 1 or a 0 mention the LBGT content. Most liberals aren't so offended by LBGT content to give the ENTIRE GAME a 0. If a liberal found the content presented poorly, they might minus a point or two from their review.
But people against the LBGT agenda for religious or political reasons are giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 because of their religious or political reviews (they are against the LBGT agenda for either political or religious reasons).
As I've already stated multiple times, there are MANY fair criticisms of the game.
But 90% of the reviews with a 1 or 0 SPECIFICALLY mention the trans character or LBGT content because they are OFFENDED by that content for religious or political reasons.
1) Actually is not most: it's some but among the most popular reviews, specially on steam, only some even mention it or mention it only to point out that they do not care about it or have issues with it.
2) Those who DO specifically mention it is usually very clearly as it pertains to poor writing and characterization that feels overall out of place in the context of this game. You can disagree with their view surely, but most people make it clear that they have no problem with the LGBT community and some of us are critical while being part of said "community" by virtue of sexual orientation or identity
3) 95% of statistics are usually made up on the spot. So I am afraid that I must see your empirical data which you either created fantastically fast or I must take your 90% estimation with a grain of salt, after all I previously conceded that I haven't read or counted all reviews (just what I considered significative, feel free to disagree) and you likely haven't either.
4) Disregard 1, 2 and 3. You're still presenting a false equivalency here: just because some people might not like LGBT content does not automatically or remotely make them conservative or religious or even political.
Nobody is offended at the character itself. You simply cannot offer evidence to the contrary and since you're making the extraordinary claim that you know they're offended and not only that but specifically because of religious of political reasons, you really have to do better than stating it without evidence, otherwise you're just as lacking in logical reasoning as the religious people you seem to have such a distaste for with your empty claims that replace "God exists because I say so" with "Bigots exist because I say so" with nothing to back such a claim at all.
Just give it up already. It's already obvious what the bigoted trolls are doing. Your paper-thin arguments trying to support such bigotry are a joke.
Let's hope these bigoted trolls don't ruin BG3 for us. Bunch of f*cking cry-babies, I swear...
I do not subscribe to "listen and believe" tactics. I am also mostly unfaced by pointless name calling as it serves only to deflate your own arguments.
So, care to explain how people are bigoted trolls because they mostly state "This game has tons of bugs, multiplayer barely works, and the shoe-horn an agenda with poor writing that doesn't lands in the context of the game"
Assuming most people mention all 3 things, how do you go from "The political statement seems like it cause of bad writing" to "I am a Christian/Muslim biggot who thinks transexuals are evil sinners henceforth I am downvoting"
Do you answer all questions on views you don't agree with simply by saying "These bigoted trolls are harassing me" without actually addressing any of their points all of the time? Do you really have so little confidence in the strength of your position that you can't even coherently explain why this people, who NEVER MENTION RELIGION AT ALL are religious bigots and conservatives and whatever other term you want to unfairly and baselessly throw around?
If anything, you're showing how you're willing to shoe horn the arguments to be only about politics (as much as the developers are doing so) instead of actually addressing honest criticism like this game it's just overall shitty, buggy, poorly written.
Almost every review I've seen giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. They are giving it a 1 or 0 because they don't agree with the LBGT agenda. This is obvious for all to see.
There are also legitimate reviews out there that are not positive about the game, but the VAST majority are trolls attacking the game because they don't support the LBGT community. This is obvious. Quit pretending this isn't the case - you are not convincing anyone (not even yourself).
Citing the content does not equate with being a bigot or against the LGBT community. Saying it's "quite obvious" isn't an argument. Most people actually do not involve themselves in gender politics at all for good or ill. They're respectful of others, even support gay marriage, equal rights. They just think there's a time and a place for those arguments and do NOT agree that a classic game really conducts said discussions or points, particularly when it is in their opinion done poorly.
So as much as you dislike the idea, I do not think must people want to be dragged into this discussion and it is precisely because they get called "religious bigots" that "hate the LGBT community" since it's easier (yet highly intellectually dishonest) to lump all of your opposition together within a nice niche instead of accepting some people disagree with how it was handled in the game
Pike down Screech. I've heard enough of your whining already.
Yes, there are legitimate criticisms of the game.
However, there are a LARGE number of non-legitimate reviews giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 and SPECIFICALLY citing the LBGT content as the reason for the negative review. Use your eyeballs and read the reviews. This point cannot be argued - it is there for everyone to see. Most reviews giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. Just go look!
Now quit bothering me Screech. I am only stating what is obvious.
If by "stating the obvious" you mean repeating ad nauseum, nope that is still not an argument. Neither is the name calling. I do not accept "Well it's obvious" when I keep telling you how it is not. You'd be better off by saying "I disagree with you" even if you do not present any specific response at all, yet you must reiterate the same statement and insult over and over, why? You think being pointlessly condescending will make your "well it's obvious!" point even more valid?
Regardless even though I am a longtime lurker I am basically a new user here, but I did in fact read the site rules, I suggest you do likewise please and just disagree with me for unspecified reasons if you must.
I just looked up the Safana part and found a quote by Amber Scott about how it was sexist that she was a sex object.
Huh? What gives her the right to slut shame Safana? I guess Salvanas is going to be the next character censored from the game for being a sexist stereotype? What absurd logic.
This is much more annoying that any of the things people are complaining about here. Safana isn't even an original character.
I posted my honest review on Steam (which I was going to do eventually anyway), saying 8/10 as my personal rating, and it's already gotten 30 people giving it a thumbs down, with only 3 giving thumbs up in less than an hour. I can't believe how ridiculous people are being about this. Maybe the Westboro Baptist Church was recruited to bring down Dragonspear's downfall...
It is pretty obvious that the two of you are not going to convince each other one way or the other. The past four pages of this thread have essentially been the two of you saying the same things again and again. Maybe its better to just call it off?
The liberal left is generally open to the LBGT community and most liberals are agnostic or atheist (though there are religious liberals as well).
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason. Thanks to quasi-religious people who think it is a "moral imperative" to do so.
Yes, there may be many liberal who also hate how the LBGT material was presented. And they might doc the game a point or two in their review for that.
I doubt it is liberals giving the game 0's or 1's in huge numbers because of the LBGT content. Minusing a point or two for the presentation of the LBGT content is fair and many liberals may do just that.
Giving the ENTIRE game a 1 or 0 because it has LBGT content shows that you are most likely against the LBGT community for religious or political reasons. Most likely you are a conservative Christian Republican voter if you give the game a 0 because it has a trans character.
How? I already showed you people have other reasons for the low rating, mostly technical issues and bad writing. You're just begging the question using ridiculous stereotypes when again, I haven't seen a SINGLE review even mentioning religion when we know religious fundamentalists have no problem in constantly mentioning it. Please stop engaging in baseless character assassination.
Most reviews I've seen giving the game a 1 or a 0 mention the LBGT content. Most liberals aren't so offended by LBGT content to give the ENTIRE GAME a 0. If a liberal found the content presented poorly, they might minus a point or two from their review.
But people against the LBGT agenda for religious or political reasons are giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 because of their religious or political reviews (they are against the LBGT agenda for either political or religious reasons).
As I've already stated multiple times, there are MANY fair criticisms of the game.
But 90% of the reviews with a 1 or 0 SPECIFICALLY mention the trans character or LBGT content because they are OFFENDED by that content for religious or political reasons.
1) Actually is not most: it's some but among the most popular reviews, specially on steam, only some even mention it or mention it only to point out that they do not care about it or have issues with it.
2) Those who DO specifically mention it is usually very clearly as it pertains to poor writing and characterization that feels overall out of place in the context of this game. You can disagree with their view surely, but most people make it clear that they have no problem with the LGBT community and some of us are critical while being part of said "community" by virtue of sexual orientation or identity
3) 95% of statistics are usually made up on the spot. So I am afraid that I must see your empirical data which you either created fantastically fast or I must take your 90% estimation with a grain of salt, after all I previously conceded that I haven't read or counted all reviews (just what I considered significative, feel free to disagree) and you likely haven't either.
4) Disregard 1, 2 and 3. You're still presenting a false equivalency here: just because some people might not like LGBT content does not automatically or remotely make them conservative or religious or even political.
Nobody is offended at the character itself. You simply cannot offer evidence to the contrary and since you're making the extraordinary claim that you know they're offended and not only that but specifically because of religious of political reasons, you really have to do better than stating it without evidence, otherwise you're just as lacking in logical reasoning as the religious people you seem to have such a distaste for with your empty claims that replace "God exists because I say so" with "Bigots exist because I say so" with nothing to back such a claim at all.
Just give it up already. It's already obvious what the bigoted trolls are doing. Your paper-thin arguments trying to support such bigotry are a joke.
Let's hope these bigoted trolls don't ruin BG3 for us. Bunch of f*cking cry-babies, I swear...
I do not subscribe to "listen and believe" tactics. I am also mostly unfaced by pointless name calling as it serves only to deflate your own arguments.
So, care to explain how people are bigoted trolls because they mostly state "This game has tons of bugs, multiplayer barely works, and the shoe-horn an agenda with poor writing that doesn't lands in the context of the game"
Assuming most people mention all 3 things, how do you go from "The political statement seems like it cause of bad writing" to "I am a Christian/Muslim biggot who thinks transexuals are evil sinners henceforth I am downvoting"
Do you answer all questions on views you don't agree with simply by saying "These bigoted trolls are harassing me" without actually addressing any of their points all of the time? Do you really have so little confidence in the strength of your position that you can't even coherently explain why this people, who NEVER MENTION RELIGION AT ALL are religious bigots and conservatives and whatever other term you want to unfairly and baselessly throw around?
If anything, you're showing how you're willing to shoe horn the arguments to be only about politics (as much as the developers are doing so) instead of actually addressing honest criticism like this game it's just overall shitty, buggy, poorly written.
Almost every review I've seen giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. They are giving it a 1 or 0 because they don't agree with the LBGT agenda. This is obvious for all to see.
There are also legitimate reviews out there that are not positive about the game, but the VAST majority are trolls attacking the game because they don't support the LBGT community. This is obvious. Quit pretending this isn't the case - you are not convincing anyone (not even yourself).
Citing the content does not equate with being a bigot or against the LGBT community. Saying it's "quite obvious" isn't an argument. Most people actually do not involve themselves in gender politics at all for good or ill. They're respectful of others, even support gay marriage, equal rights. They just think there's a time and a place for those arguments and do NOT agree that a classic game really conducts said discussions or points, particularly when it is in their opinion done poorly.
So as much as you dislike the idea, I do not think must people want to be dragged into this discussion and it is precisely because they get called "religious bigots" that "hate the LGBT community" since it's easier (yet highly intellectually dishonest) to lump all of your opposition together within a nice niche instead of accepting some people disagree with how it was handled in the game
Pike down Screech. I've heard enough of your whining already.
Yes, there are legitimate criticisms of the game.
However, there are a LARGE number of non-legitimate reviews giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 and SPECIFICALLY citing the LBGT content as the reason for the negative review. Use your eyeballs and read the reviews. This point cannot be argued - it is there for everyone to see. Most reviews giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. Just go look!
Now quit bothering me Screech. I am only stating what is obvious.
If by "stating the obvious" you mean repeating ad nauseum, nope that is still not an argument. Neither is the name calling. I do not accept "Well it's obvious" when I keep telling you how it is not. You'd be better off by saying "I disagree with you" even if you do not present any specific response at all, yet you must reiterate the same statement and insult over and over, why? You think being pointlessly condescending will make your "well it's obvious!" point even more valid?
Regardless even though I am a longtime lurker I am basically a new user here, but I did in fact read the site rules, I suggest you do likewise please and just disagree with me for unspecified reasons if you must.
Good riddance Screech!!! Don't let the door hit you on the way out! Glad to see you have been banned.
Huh? What gives her the right to slut shame Safana? I guess Salvanas is going to be the next character censored from the game for being a sexist stereotype? What absurd logic.
This is much more annoying that any of the things people are complaining about here. Safana isn't even an original character.
"Slut shaming?" wtf are you talking about? A "character" whose sole personality in BG1 was a handful of suggestive voice lines is kind of a sex object yes in the sense that she had no personality outside of it.
Safana is still as flirty in SOD as she was in BG1, there's just substance behind it now since she actually has character and her "sultriness" is properly characterized.
Jaheira and Safana didn't change much, from what I saw.
Jaheira is still tough and assertive. Safana is still flirty, but she's also tougher now? She turns Coran out on his ear when you meet her.
Being realistic, Safana hardly had a personality before SoD other than a sultry voiceset? Most BG1 characters have no personality except memorable quotes and sayings!
Maybe people have been running BGNPC project for so long that they forget that very little talking happens without that mod.
Jaheira and Safana didn't change much, from what I saw.
Jaheira is still tough and assertive. Safana is still flirty, but she's also tougher now? She turns Coran out on his ear when you meet her.
Being realistic, Safana hardly had a personality before SoD other than a sultry voiceset? Most BG1 characters have no personality except memorable quotes and sayings!
Ah, I'm basing this only on the quotes I saw. I hope they didn't change things too much. There is a place for a wide variety of personality types in Baldur's Gate, if the new powers that be are going to change existing characters to fit their own preferences it will be removing from the game.
Honestly, I think the soundsets said a lot about the characters' personalities. Just because they were limited in number, most of the lines were very revealing (mainly because they were such colorful characters). You knew what Minsc was about, you knew what Edwin was about, you knew what Coran was about. They were not elaborate but they were clear. Making Safana no longer a teasing, sexually manipulative pirate would be a radical departure from what we understood both from her limited dialogue and the story in her biography about the pirate captain.
Jaheira and Safana didn't change much, from what I saw.
Jaheira is still tough and assertive. Safana is still flirty, but she's also tougher now? She turns Coran out on his ear when you meet her.
Being realistic, Safana hardly had a personality before SoD other than a sultry voiceset? Most BG1 characters have no personality except memorable quotes and sayings!
Maybe people have been running BGNPC project for so long that they forget that very little talking happens without that mod.
yeah before bg2 and that mod the npcs in baldurs gate were flat and one dimensional. so at face value pre sod safana was just a flirt.
The liberal left is generally open to the LBGT community and most liberals are agnostic or atheist (though there are religious liberals as well).
People you are arguing with are mostly liberals as well. They don't care about LGBT, they just dislike methods used to promote it. Like forcing LGBT characters into everything for no good reason. Thanks to quasi-religious people who think it is a "moral imperative" to do so.
Yes, there may be many liberal who also hate how the LBGT material was presented. And they might doc the game a point or two in their review for that.
I doubt it is liberals giving the game 0's or 1's in huge numbers because of the LBGT content. Minusing a point or two for the presentation of the LBGT content is fair and many liberals may do just that.
Giving the ENTIRE game a 1 or 0 because it has LBGT content shows that you are most likely against the LBGT community for religious or political reasons. Most likely you are a conservative Christian Republican voter if you give the game a 0 because it has a trans character.
How? I already showed you people have other reasons for the low rating, mostly technical issues and bad writing. You're just begging the question using ridiculous stereotypes when again, I haven't seen a SINGLE review even mentioning religion when we know religious fundamentalists have no problem in constantly mentioning it. Please stop engaging in baseless character assassination.
Most reviews I've seen giving the game a 1 or a 0 mention the LBGT content. Most liberals aren't so offended by LBGT content to give the ENTIRE GAME a 0. If a liberal found the content presented poorly, they might minus a point or two from their review.
But people against the LBGT agenda for religious or political reasons are giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 because of their religious or political reviews (they are against the LBGT agenda for either political or religious reasons).
As I've already stated multiple times, there are MANY fair criticisms of the game.
But 90% of the reviews with a 1 or 0 SPECIFICALLY mention the trans character or LBGT content because they are OFFENDED by that content for religious or political reasons.
1) Actually is not most: it's some but among the most popular reviews, specially on steam, only some even mention it or mention it only to point out that they do not care about it or have issues with it.
2) Those who DO specifically mention it is usually very clearly as it pertains to poor writing and characterization that feels overall out of place in the context of this game. You can disagree with their view surely, but most people make it clear that they have no problem with the LGBT community and some of us are critical while being part of said "community" by virtue of sexual orientation or identity
3) 95% of statistics are usually made up on the spot. So I am afraid that I must see your empirical data which you either created fantastically fast or I must take your 90% estimation with a grain of salt, after all I previously conceded that I haven't read or counted all reviews (just what I considered significative, feel free to disagree) and you likely haven't either.
4) Disregard 1, 2 and 3. You're still presenting a false equivalency here: just because some people might not like LGBT content does not automatically or remotely make them conservative or religious or even political.
Nobody is offended at the character itself. You simply cannot offer evidence to the contrary and since you're making the extraordinary claim that you know they're offended and not only that but specifically because of religious of political reasons, you really have to do better than stating it without evidence, otherwise you're just as lacking in logical reasoning as the religious people you seem to have such a distaste for with your empty claims that replace "God exists because I say so" with "Bigots exist because I say so" with nothing to back such a claim at all.
Just give it up already. It's already obvious what the bigoted trolls are doing. Your paper-thin arguments trying to support such bigotry are a joke.
Let's hope these bigoted trolls don't ruin BG3 for us. Bunch of f*cking cry-babies, I swear...
I do not subscribe to "listen and believe" tactics. I am also mostly unfaced by pointless name calling as it serves only to deflate your own arguments.
So, care to explain how people are bigoted trolls because they mostly state "This game has tons of bugs, multiplayer barely works, and the shoe-horn an agenda with poor writing that doesn't lands in the context of the game"
Assuming most people mention all 3 things, how do you go from "The political statement seems like it cause of bad writing" to "I am a Christian/Muslim biggot who thinks transexuals are evil sinners henceforth I am downvoting"
Do you answer all questions on views you don't agree with simply by saying "These bigoted trolls are harassing me" without actually addressing any of their points all of the time? Do you really have so little confidence in the strength of your position that you can't even coherently explain why this people, who NEVER MENTION RELIGION AT ALL are religious bigots and conservatives and whatever other term you want to unfairly and baselessly throw around?
If anything, you're showing how you're willing to shoe horn the arguments to be only about politics (as much as the developers are doing so) instead of actually addressing honest criticism like this game it's just overall shitty, buggy, poorly written.
Almost every review I've seen giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. They are giving it a 1 or 0 because they don't agree with the LBGT agenda. This is obvious for all to see.
There are also legitimate reviews out there that are not positive about the game, but the VAST majority are trolls attacking the game because they don't support the LBGT community. This is obvious. Quit pretending this isn't the case - you are not convincing anyone (not even yourself).
Citing the content does not equate with being a bigot or against the LGBT community. Saying it's "quite obvious" isn't an argument. Most people actually do not involve themselves in gender politics at all for good or ill. They're respectful of others, even support gay marriage, equal rights. They just think there's a time and a place for those arguments and do NOT agree that a classic game really conducts said discussions or points, particularly when it is in their opinion done poorly.
So as much as you dislike the idea, I do not think must people want to be dragged into this discussion and it is precisely because they get called "religious bigots" that "hate the LGBT community" since it's easier (yet highly intellectually dishonest) to lump all of your opposition together within a nice niche instead of accepting some people disagree with how it was handled in the game
Pike down Screech. I've heard enough of your whining already.
Yes, there are legitimate criticisms of the game.
However, there are a LARGE number of non-legitimate reviews giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 and SPECIFICALLY citing the LBGT content as the reason for the negative review. Use your eyeballs and read the reviews. This point cannot be argued - it is there for everyone to see. Most reviews giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. Just go look!
Now quit bothering me Screech. I am only stating what is obvious.
If by "stating the obvious" you mean repeating ad nauseum, nope that is still not an argument. Neither is the name calling. I do not accept "Well it's obvious" when I keep telling you how it is not. You'd be better off by saying "I disagree with you" even if you do not present any specific response at all, yet you must reiterate the same statement and insult over and over, why? You think being pointlessly condescending will make your "well it's obvious!" point even more valid?
Regardless even though I am a longtime lurker I am basically a new user here, but I did in fact read the site rules, I suggest you do likewise please and just disagree with me for unspecified reasons if you must.
I disagree with you.
I believe that the vast majority of the reviews giving SOD a 1 or 0 (most of which explicitly state they are doing so because of the trans character and LBGT content) are doing so because they do not like the LBGT community, and for no other reason. I would argue that most of these people are trolls who are attacking the game because of their political or religious views (they EXPLICITLY state they are giving it a 1 or 0 because they don't like the LBGT content).
I am sorry I called you Screech. You are in fact not Screech from Saved by the Bell.
You believing that is to me a more reasonable statement that you asserting it for fact so that's fair enough and I do agree to disagree.
Faerun isn't always a nice place, just like our world. Undoubtedly there's racism, sexism, and I'm sure there is some measure of transphobia as well. I'd imagine Mizrena, were she a well written character, would want to play her cards closer to her chest, in case the MC and party are a malevolent crew.
You know there's such a thing as pride pins, right? You say it's poor, unrealistic writing for someone to wear this kind of thing on their sleeve, but some people literally wear it on their sleeve, or at least their lapel. A character being vocal about their identity is not, in itself, bad writing. It just says something about their outlook.
Also, still not clear on why dragons and magic are acceptable departures from reality, but "too many LGBTs" is not.
Comments
-Yes, I think Amber Scott wanted this discussion, otherwise she wouldn't have made the statements she made.
-Yes, both sides have Freedom of Speech, for sure. Those in favor have that right to support Beamdog, those who don't have the right to criticize, and hopefully everyone learns something from the whole ordeal (LOLDOUBTFUL).
I hate internet trolls. There! I said it! I want all internet trolls to burn in hell!!!!!
So as much as you dislike the idea, I do not think must people want to be dragged into this discussion and it is precisely because they get called "religious bigots" that "hate the LGBT community" since it's easier (yet highly intellectually dishonest) to lump all of your opposition together within a nice niche instead of accepting some people disagree with how it was handled in the game
However, if the player's reputation is more evil, or if the player is rude to Mizrena in dialogue, she won't share the reason behind why her birth name no longer suited her. These would be more subtle touches, and to me, I'd appreciate that.
Faerun isn't always a nice place, just like our world. Undoubtedly there's racism, sexism, and I'm sure there is some measure of transphobia as well. I'd imagine Mizrena, were she a well written character, would want to play her cards closer to her chest, in case the MC and party are a malevolent crew.
Hope this clears up that question, and why I think Mizrena was poorly written.
Just because people are opposed to politics being awkwardly crammed into a 20 year old game does not make them troll. That just makes them someone who wants a consistent experience without having unnecessary political bullshit put in just so that some jackass at the developer can feel "special".
What does Salvanas have to do with the story? All he does is talk about girls and hit on female party members. He has no bearing on anything, so what gives him the right to walk around being all straight and whatnot? Huh. I didn't realise that just existing as a gay person was a political thing now. Has anyone told them?
Yes, there are legitimate criticisms of the game.
However, there are a LARGE number of non-legitimate reviews giving the ENTIRE GAME a 1 or 0 and SPECIFICALLY citing the LBGT content as the reason for the negative review. Use your eyeballs and read the reviews. This point cannot be argued - it is there for everyone to see. Most reviews giving the game a 1 or 0 cite the LBGT content. Just go look!
Now quit bothering me Screech. I am only stating what is obvious.
That said, some of these arguments are really spurious. In BG1, we have the totally-not-4th-wall-breaking Maple Willow Aspen who goes on a rant about her name as well. And literally blows up if you ask a question. So complaints that a character talks about him/herself when asked about his/her name are weird, to say the least.
Now that I think about it, though I've never changed my name, sometimes after introducing myself I go into the history of my weird last name (Anglicization of an Asian surname. Britain colonized EVERYTHING, it seems...) just because it's freaking acceptable smalltalk. I did this in an interview two days ago, and it didn't seem odd whatsoever to either me or the person interviewing me.
IMO, this is really a non-issue. Even, maybe especially as a Christian, I can disagree with choices and positions of others and still acknowledge them as human beings (or other race, as this is in fact a fantasy game.) A bit more upset with Jaheira and Safana changes, but that's more because my policy is to respect characters someone else made.
I understand that there still would have been criticism, a lot of criticism in fact. However I would honestly be on the other side of this argument if it was done better and if people were still fixed on it (for as much as they are, since there's PLENTY of technical issues criticism too)
We don't always have to know that the blacksmith's daughter is a bit of a slut. We don't have to know that the nobleman serves food to the homeless in disguise. We don't have to know that the guard only went into service because he has a family back home and the harvest was bad.
But it's little touches like those that give the appearance of a living breathing world, and while we don't have to know it, our stories are more the richer for them.
Regardless even though I am a longtime lurker I am basically a new user here, but I did in fact read the site rules, I suggest you do likewise please and just disagree with me for unspecified reasons if you must.
Huh? What gives her the right to slut shame Safana? I guess Salvanas is going to be the next character censored from the game for being a sexist stereotype? What absurd logic.
This is much more annoying that any of the things people are complaining about here. Safana isn't even an original character.
It is pretty obvious that the two of you are not going to convince each other one way or the other. The past four pages of this thread have essentially been the two of you saying the same things again and again. Maybe its better to just call it off?
Safana is still as flirty in SOD as she was in BG1, there's just substance behind it now since she actually has character and her "sultriness" is properly characterized.
Honestly, I think the soundsets said a lot about the characters' personalities. Just because they were limited in number, most of the lines were very revealing (mainly because they were such colorful characters). You knew what Minsc was about, you knew what Edwin was about, you knew what Coran was about. They were not elaborate but they were clear. Making Safana no longer a teasing, sexually manipulative pirate would be a radical departure from what we understood both from her limited dialogue and the story in her biography about the pirate captain.
Also, still not clear on why dragons and magic are acceptable departures from reality, but "too many LGBTs" is not.