It doesn't really matter if the review was written by a trans person or not, it's glaringly idiotic regardless and not worth any further consideration. Just because someone is trans doesn't mean we just have to sit and nod while they talk nonsense.
You're 100% right that simply being a thing doesn't (or shouldn't) grant a pass or privilege to have their words unquestioned. You should, in fact, take everything (including anything I say) with a level of rational skepticism.
However, it's not right to expect anyone to take your declaration of the OP's feelings to be idiotic on your word alone. You haven't explained why it's "glaringly idiotic" or why it's "not worth any further consideration". Everything is worth consideration, and your post comes across as a hostile, dismissive way of silencing people.
You don't have to agree with everyone, but at least be respectful. Why should anyone respect you otherwise?
It doesn't really matter if the review was written by a trans person or not, it's glaringly idiotic regardless and not worth any further consideration. Just because someone is trans doesn't mean we just have to sit and nod while they talk nonsense.
You're 100% right that simply being a thing doesn't (or shouldn't) grant a pass or privilege to have their words unquestioned. You should, in fact, take everything (including anything I say) with a level of rational skepticism.
However, it's not right to expect anyone to take your declaration of the OP's feelings to be idiotic on your word alone. You haven't explained why it's "glaringly idiotic" or why it's "not worth any further consideration". Everything is worth consideration, and your post comes across as a hostile, dismissive way of silencing people.
You don't have to agree with everyone, but at least be respectful. Why should anyone respect you otherwise?
It doesn't really matter if the review was written by a trans person or not, it's glaringly idiotic regardless and not worth any further consideration. Just because someone is trans doesn't mean we just have to sit and nod while they talk nonsense.
I agree that trans status doesn't mean we should give their opinion more clout. If they're trans and demonstrate greater understanding about the issue, then sure. For that reason, I'm uncertain that digging into a person's trans identity is useful? About a dozen trans women joined the forums since last week. We're not all going to post our surgeon's letters.
Someone could dig around for "proof" for a lot of people, but many of us don't wear it on our sleeves. Most of my family doesn't know (only my brother, I think), a few close friends I've discussed it with, and a few internet forums where it has no way of meddling in my personal life. I currently have no intention of pursuing sexual reassignment (it's prohibitively expensive and, currently, I feel it's not far enough along in effectiveness to make me happy) and though a part of me really wants to undergo hormonal therapy, that too is expensive and would complicate my life more than I'd like (my father really doesn't need the stress, and while he'd still love me, it'd be rough on him).
So aside from digging around certain on-subject talks on a select few forums (like the Paizo forums), you'd never find anything about it on my facebook (which gets very little activity from me because social media isn't really my tea of choice).
Exactly. There's no need to speculate on anyone's gender/sexuality. Trans people might have something interesting to say about the portrayal in the game of a trans character that could easily pass non-trans people by, but this "review" doesn't make the slightest attempt to do that, but instead rants on exactly the same "political agenda" nonsense that didn't make sense the first time it was brought up and still doesn't.
Edit : that was in reply to typo tilly. But it should also explain why the review is glaringly idiotic. Like, hate, or indifferent to trans characters being in a game, the idea that one was added as part of an insidious political agenda is tinfoil hat stuff. But do I seriously have to defend that? Is crap like this "review" really the level of debate here?
Eh, I wouldn't be so certain about that actually being a transgendered person. GamerGate and specifically a certain segment (4/8 chan) of its supporters have a history of using sock puppets. They did that against feminists on twitter a while back with the #banfathersday hoax and a ton of them were busted for using stolen photos (often from stock photo sites) and fake information. So yeah, until I see a facebook page and can confirm its actually a transgendered person, I usually take these things with a grain of salt. If you want to give your argument credibility the easiest way to do it is to pretend to be a member of the group being discussed.
I'll look into this Jinx person and see if I can find anything.
lol No. I'm just saying its easier to believe its a real person if they have a facebook page with friends, a background, job, etc... You know, some type of actual verification that the person is probably who they claim to be...
the point is, they don't have to be trans, they can actually be the gender, unlike the real world where medical science is the limit, a good wizard can make anyones request a reality
Yeah, disagree with the OP or no (and I do disagree with it), I think it's a bad thing to question someone's trans "credentials". Sure, GGers have and no doubt still do use fake accounts pretending to be women, POCs, and so forth, but there's more harm done in questioning whether someone who disagrees with Mizhena's inclusion is "really" trans than good. It suggest that a trans person can't possibly think that, but of course they can have as wide an array of opinions as anyone else.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Now people are going to be cyberstalking others to make sure they're who they say they are... Crazy. I think it's time to move on and for people on both sides to stop using the game as their ideological battleground.
Now people are going to be cyberstalking others to make sure they're who they say they are... Crazy. I think it's time to move on and for people on both sides to stop using the game as their ideological battleground.
In a setting where nearly any hedge wizard worth a spit could cast polymorph, why would there be actual transgender, they would just go get a spell cast and actually be what they want, hell why stop at transgender, you can transpecies, pretty much whatever you want, all you need is coin and a wizard.
Why does everyone assume that didn't happen?
The dialogue is, essentially, "I was born a boy, but I realized I really felt like a woman, so, you know, here I am." It's actually pretty reasonable to think that her parents spent her wizard college tuition savings on a Polymorph + Permanency, and that's why she had to join the clergy.
The story is actually completely ambiguous, and actually fits the Forgotten Realms setting *perfectly.* It's actually really, really good writing in that respect.
Funny how people keep coming on these boards saying stuff like, "trans people don't belong in this setting!" But think about it: the setting is completely imaginary. Aside from the words specifically written by Beamdog or Bioware or Ed Greenwood, people's idea of what belongs in the setting is actually a perfect window into their own feelings and imagination. Saying "trans people have no place in this setting" is literally the same as saying "I prefer to imagine a world where trans people don't exist."
Well, because there's nothing necessarily to indicate that it did, I suppose. People react to what they've been given. You can't fault people for that. Making up a plausible story is fanfiction at best, and no more or less accurate than just taking it at face value.
Most of the complaints I've seen have been about the off the cuff nature, the poor reaction, lack of missed opportunity, and for some (such as myself) the fact it gets tiring that this stuff is polluting something that we love.
You know, I strongly believe that part of the reason it feels wrong in Baldur's Gate for a lot of people is because of the ideological warfare going on everywhere in the media. When you can't pick up a newspaper without hearing people's opinions about Caitlyn Jenner, or whether or not North Carolina (my home state) is just a bunch of backwards redneck assholes because there's controversy over where you can use the toilet, well...you don't want to open up Baldur's Gate and get slapped with an NPC who feels really forced on you (especially given the fact you cannot be rude to the NPC concerning her story).
And part of the reason that makes people feel uncomfortable is because of posts like yours that disparage them for feeling uncomfortable. Or those calling them bigots, or dismissing their feelings, etc. That helps nobody. Least of all people who are the subject matter.
There are two sides to every coin and we can't accurately appraise it unless we look at both. Being nice to people wouldn't kill anyone.
especially given the fact you cannot be rude to the NPC concerning her story
I find this a puzzling attitude. Throughout all the Infinity Engine games, even the wordy Planescape Torment, you are thrown into many conversations where you have a limited range of responses that don't cover every possible reaction in even a broad sense. Certainly there are conversations in all the games where I'm not 100% satisfied with the answers you can give for every character. I want my wizard-slayer to have the chance to insult every wizard I meet, or my dwarf to be able to threaten every elf, and I can't. But it's an RPG trope that BG happily buys into.
Yet, people only really start to notice this and demand it be done differently when the option missing is "being shitty to someone who might be trans".
EDIT: I don't really mean to come across so bitchy, but the way people have gone crazy finding fault over a minor character, yet ignored those same faults that have been littered throughout all the infinity engine games beforehand, does suggest it's something specific to that character that's the real problem.
On a side note, in the same D&D game with the kumiho, one of the NPCs actually was transgendered. We were playing with a Pathfinder core, and permanency isn't compatible with things like alter self or polymorph, so that wasn't a route the character had taken. The character was simply passing with their Disguise skill, and there was some pretty deep stuff involved with the character over the course of the game.
The character, Victoria, was a vampire and actually began as an antagonist (she was the right hand of a bigger bad) who eventually defected to the party's side after several encounters (she got stomped by the party each time they got into it) and one of her "sisters" (in the coven sense) was the ward of the party's Paladin.
One of the PCs set out to find an instantaneous (e.g. cannot be dispelled) to right her situation. It was, I felt, quite charming and it was nice when they succeeded. But the character was a person first. The party didn't even realize Victoria was actually once Victor and still technically male until quite a while later, and only after one of the other coven vampires sort-of-teased her about it (after accidentally calling her Victor), and even still it was quite a ways into the character's existence in the campaign before it became a thing.
One of my other tg friends was playing in the game (the "sister" in the coven in fact) and she was nothing but elated by Victoria's presence, and was a big part of getting Victoria over to "team PC-Party". If Victoria had have been just matter o' fact about it, she wouldn't have been nearly as enamored with her.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You call me saying "writers admittance" as distortion and lies? Really? How can I distort and lie about 2 words that I didn't even go into detail about?
You sir are a liar. You hurt my internet feelings.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You call me saying "writers admittance" as distortion and lies? Really? How can I distort and lie about 2 words that I didn't even go into detail about?
You sir are a liar.
What are the various other problems then? Please can you explain in detail, especially why each problem is detrimental to the game?
especially given the fact you cannot be rude to the NPC concerning her story
I find this a puzzling attitude. Throughout all the Infinity Engine games, even the wordy Planescape Torment, you are thrown into many conversations where you have a limited range of responses that don't cover every possible reaction in even a broad sense. Certainly there are conversations in all the games where I'm not 100% satisfied with the answers you can give for every character. I want my wizard-slayer to have the chance to insult every wizard I meet, or my dwarf to be able to threaten every elf, and I can't. But it's an RPG trope that BG happily buys into.
Yet, people only really start to notice this and demand it be done differently when the option missing is "being shitty to someone who might be trans"
Because with most NPCs you typically at least have the good option, neutral option, evil option, sarcastic/funny option, unless it's to a line of dialog that is really short or without note, such as a Y/N question. You can tell NPCs to shut up, make fun of them, call them insane, be sarcastic with them, yadda-yadda. You can tell Imoen that you don't need her looking over your shoulder. You can tell Nalia she's being a naive brat (paraphrased), and your party of NPCs often have some off-putting things to say in a number of situations.
(Hell, I'd wonder what a pre- and post-curse Edwin would have said about this.)
But...you're pretty much just given the option to talk about something else, politely compliment her name, etc. It's very bland and you don't even get the option to just be generally skeptical or something (like you do with Neera in Beregost).
It comes off as very odd, and when combined with the media wars going on outside of the game, well...whether intentional or not, it does look awfully suspect.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You call me saying "writers admittance" as distortion and lies? Really? How can I distort and lie about 2 words that I didn't even go into detail about?
You sir are a liar.
What are the various other problems then? Please can you explain in detail, especially why each problem is detrimental to the game?
See as I said majority of people don't know what the problems are about, do some research and come back before you call people liars. Your a meany.
But thankyou for making my point.
Pro Tip when entering a discussion/debate don't pick a side then ask the opposing side for information on why you chose a side.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You call me saying "writers admittance" as distortion and lies? Really? How can I distort and lie about 2 words that I didn't even go into detail about?
You sir are a liar.
What are the various other problems then? Please can you explain in detail, especially why each problem is detrimental to the game?
See as I said majority of people don't know what the problems are about, do some research and come back before you call people liars. Your a meany.
But thankyou for making my point.
Sorry bud, but I haven't made any point for you. You've avoided giving any real detail in what you've said so far, and it makes you look like a bit of a troll, but I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to engage you in an actual conversation.
I've played the game and didn't have nearly as bad a time as all you lot complaining seem to have. There were a quite a few bits I thought could be better, but I definitely enjoyed the game overall. Apparently I was wrong to enjoy it though, according to people like you.
I'm asking you what the problems are because I want to understand from someone who didn't enjoy the game why they are so against it. Did you find the "trans" controversy to be a bit ridiculous when you actually met the character? What did you think of the questionable ethics of the coalition? What were the good fights?
I'm asking you because I've read some of the problems other people have complained about, but mostly it's all this cult-like nonsense about SJWs that barely talks about the gameplay or experience. I want you as someone who has played the game to tell me as someone who has played the game what exactly it is that I missed that is so bad, in detail.
You know, I strongly believe that part of the reason it feels wrong in Baldur's Gate for a lot of people is because of the ideological warfare going on everywhere in the media. When you can't pick up a newspaper without hearing people's opinions about Caitlyn Jenner, or whether or not North Carolina (my home state) is just a bunch of backwards redneck assholes because there's controversy over where you can use the toilet, well...you don't want to open up Baldur's Gate and get slapped with an NPC who feels really forced on you (especially given the fact you cannot be rude to the NPC concerning her story).
People have posted numerous other examples from the original game where charname doesn't get a dialogue option to be rude to NPCs talking to them. Why, pray tell, is this one so different?
Because people feel that if they find out someone is transgendered and they can't be rude to them, they're being forced to accept this person as a PC and in real life.
Boo. Effing. Hoo.
(Also, you have to inquire about the NPC not once, but twice to get the story. There is nothing indicating "click here for progressive feels, y'all!" near them. In what way, realistically, can be it be considered "forced"? Quite the contrary, it would be appropriate to say it is "hidden".)
And part of the reason that makes people feel uncomfortable is because of posts like yours that disparage them for feeling uncomfortable. Or those calling them bigots, or dismissing their feelings, etc. That helps nobody. Least of all people who are the subject matter.
There are two sides to every coin and we can't accurately appraise it unless we look at both. Being nice to people wouldn't kill anyone.
There is no need to treat "people who are comfortable with trans characters being in a game" and "people who are uncomfortable with trans characters being in a game" as moral and intellectually equal sides. They aren't. The first side is right, and the second side is wrong. Period.
Now, the world is what it is, popular media is what it is, and I don't feel being in the second group makes you or anyone else necessarily a terrible person. You are quite possibly, even likely, not "evil". But you are in the wrong.
The inclusion of trans people in a setting is not ideological anything. It is a reflection of real life, where trans people also exist. All settings that are intended to reflect real life should have trans people - it should be the default, not exceptional. And the people who oppose this are, again, wrong.
It's true that not everyone is very nice and considerate in pointing this out. I am sorry if you feel like people are turning you into a bigot, because I don't assume in real life you're actively anti-trans simply due to your posts here. But if you're going to be honest with yourself, you know perfectly well which side got ugly and nasty first and to a much greater degree. And if you are uncomfortable, just imagine how uncomfortable a trans person might feel seeing the sort of things that have been and continue to be said just on this forum, to say nothing of the wider internet, in the past week. Like the video of killing Mizhena that got so much support on Youtube, or various posters who keep coming in here and saying awful things until they get banned.
That is a lot of bad juju, and in the midst of that, can you blame progressive and moderate posters for not really paying a lot of heed to your feelings? Particularly when it wasn't until this post that you even started talking about your personal situation and why it feels that you're unfairly under attack?
Anyway, I do feel for you. I'm sure it sucks feeling under attack just for where you live, and I can understand why you'd feel a trans character in a classic old-school-style game would be unexpected and unwelcome to you, under these circumstances. But regardless of those reasons, you are still wrong to feel uncomfortable. It doesn't make you the worst person in the world, a Nazi, or a bigot... but you are still wrong, and I can't compromise on that just because I sympathise with your situation.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You call me saying "writers admittance" as distortion and lies? Really? How can I distort and lie about 2 words that I didn't even go into detail about?
You sir are a liar.
What are the various other problems then? Please can you explain in detail, especially why each problem is detrimental to the game?
See as I said majority of people don't know what the problems are about, do some research and come back before you call people liars. Your a meany.
But thankyou for making my point.
Sorry bud, but I haven't made any point for you.
I've played the game and didn't have nearly as bad a time as all you lot complaining seem to have. There were a quite a few bits I thought could be better, but I definitely enjoyed the game overall. Apparently I was wrong to enjoy it though, according to people like you.
I'm asking you what the problems are because I want to understand from someone who didn't enjoy the game why they are so against it. Did you find the "trans" controversy to be a bit ridiculous when you actually met the character? What did you think of the questionable ethics of the coalition? What were the good fights?
I'm asking you because I've read some of the problems other people have complained about, but mostly it's all this cult-like nonsense about SJWs that barely talks about the gameplay or experience. I want you as someone who has played the game to tell me as someone who has played the game what exactly it is that I missed that is so bad, in detail.
No.1 your meany poo poo head, no.2 it's very complex. You would have a far easier time if you just YouTube it they have the facts on hand. Asking for someone to explain it on forums will require me to gather information and facts which I cbfd doing. Never trust someone explaining something like this with txt typing and without facts. Also not a single person has said u can't enjoy the game.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You call me saying "writers admittance" as distortion and lies? Really? How can I distort and lie about 2 words that I didn't even go into detail about?
You sir are a liar.
What are the various other problems then? Please can you explain in detail, especially why each problem is detrimental to the game?
See as I said majority of people don't know what the problems are about, do some research and come back before you call people liars. Your a meany.
But thankyou for making my point.
Sorry bud, but I haven't made any point for you.
I've played the game and didn't have nearly as bad a time as all you lot complaining seem to have. There were a quite a few bits I thought could be better, but I definitely enjoyed the game overall. Apparently I was wrong to enjoy it though, according to people like you.
I'm asking you what the problems are because I want to understand from someone who didn't enjoy the game why they are so against it. Did you find the "trans" controversy to be a bit ridiculous when you actually met the character? What did you think of the questionable ethics of the coalition? What were the good fights?
I'm asking you because I've read some of the problems other people have complained about, but mostly it's all this cult-like nonsense about SJWs that barely talks about the gameplay or experience. I want you as someone who has played the game to tell me as someone who has played the game what exactly it is that I missed that is so bad, in detail.
No.1 your meany poo poo head, no.2 it's very complex. You would have a far easier time if you just YouTube it they have the facts on hand. Asking for someone to explain it on forums will require me to gather information and facts which I cbfd doing. Never trust someone explaining something like this with txt typing and without facts. Also not a single person has said u can't enjoy the game.
I don't want to know what some wanker off youtube thinks, I want to know what you think. Can you at least summarise your grievances for me?
EDIT:
Pro Tip when entering a discussion/debate don't pick a side then ask the opposing side for information on why you chose a side.
It's quite hard to have a discussion/debate if the opposing side won't tell you what their opinions actually are and why they hold those opinions. Especially if it's your "side" that is trying to achieve some sort of change. Pro. Tip.
I think most people don't seem to know what this is all about, why are people posting and thinking the trans character is the only cause of this? Female character changes, minsc and ethics, mansplaining, devs attitude, writers admittance.
Because it was and is the single most talked-about thing and the catalyst for the hate campaign directed at the game.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You call me saying "writers admittance" as distortion and lies? Really? How can I distort and lie about 2 words that I didn't even go into detail about?
You sir are a liar.
What are the various other problems then? Please can you explain in detail, especially why each problem is detrimental to the game?
See as I said majority of people don't know what the problems are about, do some research and come back before you call people liars. Your a meany.
But thankyou for making my point.
Sorry bud, but I haven't made any point for you.
I've played the game and didn't have nearly as bad a time as all you lot complaining seem to have. There were a quite a few bits I thought could be better, but I definitely enjoyed the game overall. Apparently I was wrong to enjoy it though, according to people like you.
I'm asking you what the problems are because I want to understand from someone who didn't enjoy the game why they are so against it. Did you find the "trans" controversy to be a bit ridiculous when you actually met the character? What did you think of the questionable ethics of the coalition? What were the good fights?
I'm asking you because I've read some of the problems other people have complained about, but mostly it's all this cult-like nonsense about SJWs that barely talks about the gameplay or experience. I want you as someone who has played the game to tell me as someone who has played the game what exactly it is that I missed that is so bad, in detail.
No.1 your meany poo poo head, no.2 it's very complex. You would have a far easier time if you just YouTube it they have the facts on hand. Asking for someone to explain it on forums will require me to gather information and facts which I cbfd doing. Never trust someone explaining something like this with txt typing and without facts. Also not a single person has said u can't enjoy the game.
I don't want to know what some wanker off youtube thinks, I want to know what you think.
Because I'm benevolent I'll summarise, a 20 year old game is art it's also a legacy, I grew up with it. The statue of David is a naked guy with his penis flapping in the Wind, an endless source of sjw's complain about it. As weird as it may be it's still art, they don't change it because it's old and meant something(I'm guessing). If a sjw bought that statue and gave him a bigger penis or added pants that is wrong. Same goes for bg games, they are art. sure beamdog can spruce them up and restore them with "enhanced editions" as restorers maintain the statue of David. But they don't go changing things like adding pants and covering up the penis which is what beamdog is doing. They maintain the lore.
Because I'm benevolent I'll summarise, a 20 year old game is art it's also a legacy, I grew up with it. The statue of David is a naked guy with his penis flapping in the Wind, an endless source of sjw's complain about it. As weird as it may be it's still art, they don't change it because it's old and meant something(I'm guessing). If a sjw bought that statue and gave him a bigger penis or added pants that is wrong. Same goes for bg games, they are art. sure beamdog can spruce them up and restore them with "enhanced editions" as restorers maintain the statue of David. But they don't go changing things like adding pants and covering up the penis which is what beamdog is doing. They maintain the lore.
Typing this made me laugh.
So what are the changes that constitute the pants on David? Give me the meat of your argument - it's all very well to say "they changed some things and I don't like those changes", but a real argument would be to list all the things you disliked to this extent, the reasons why you disliked them, and why you think they are inappropriate to a Baldur's Gate game. I already know you don't like some things, you don't need to tell me that again with a tortured metaphor.
I think 90% of what Beamdog has done has been excellent, and I'm really pleased they've resurrected the game I also grew up with. I'd like to see them produce more IE/BG games.
The biggest problem I had with SoD was
the Temple of Bhaal quest. I thought this was a really good opportunity to tell a really interesting story that would give real insight into the protagonist's history
but it ended up being dull and going nowhere. I like the Shaman class but it could do with a bit more tweaking. I thought the scenes with
Irenicus were really good - at first I thought it was a terrible idea to introduce him before BG2 because part of what makes him such a compelling villain is that he comes out of nowhere, but the writing for him was great
Because I'm benevolent I'll summarise, a 20 year old game is art it's also a legacy, I grew up with it. The statue of David is a naked guy with his penis flapping in the Wind, an endless source of sjw's complain about it. As weird as it may be it's still art, they don't change it because it's old and meant something(I'm guessing). If a sjw bought that statue and gave him a bigger penis or added pants that is wrong. Same goes for bg games, they are art. sure beamdog can spruce them up and restore them with "enhanced editions" as restorers maintain the statue of David. But they don't go changing things like adding pants and covering up the penis which is what beamdog is doing. They maintain the lore.
Typing this made me laugh.
So what are the changes that constitute the pants on David? Give me the meat of your argument - it's all very well to say "they changed some things and I don't like those changes", but a real argument would be to list all the things you disliked to this extent, the reasons why you disliked them, and why you think they are inappropriate to a Baldur's Gate game.
I think 90% of what Beamdog has done has been excellent, and I'm really pleased they've resurrected the game I also grew up with. I'd like to see them produce more IE/BG games.
The biggest problem I had with SoD was
the Temple of Bhaal quest. I thought this was a really good opportunity to tell a really interesting story that would give real insight into the protagonist's history
but it ended up being dull and going nowhere. I like the Shaman class but it could do with a bit more tweaking. I thought the scenes with
Irenicus were really good - at first I thought it was a terrible idea to introduce him before BG2 because part of what makes him such a compelling villain is that he comes out of nowhere, but the writing for him was great
and that justified the earlier inclusion to me.
It may have been accidental, but there is too much coincidence for a large enough of the player base to realise that an agenda is being pushed. I already highlighted the majority of the we can call them "coincidences" if u prefer. There is also writers outright saying they are an sjw and will never hesitate to put sjw agendas in her/his(avoiding names) writing and that they don't card about whether it suits or not.
So to summarise it could be just a big coincidence, all this stuff has happened. But for me personally I smell a serious amount sjw agenda being pushed. And like with all games it's not stopped asap it will destroy the ip. If they want to continue to push the agenda make a new game not related, atleast then people chose that agenda it's not tricked/forced on them.
For Me It Was the female overhauls and minsc talking about gamer gate ethics that were more agenda pushing and sacrilegious then the transsexual.
Comments
However, it's not right to expect anyone to take your declaration of the OP's feelings to be idiotic on your word alone. You haven't explained why it's "glaringly idiotic" or why it's "not worth any further consideration". Everything is worth consideration, and your post comes across as a hostile, dismissive way of silencing people.
You don't have to agree with everyone, but at least be respectful. Why should anyone respect you otherwise?
So aside from digging around certain on-subject talks on a select few forums (like the Paizo forums), you'd never find anything about it on my facebook (which gets very little activity from me because social media isn't really my tea of choice).
Edit : that was in reply to typo tilly. But it should also explain why the review is glaringly idiotic. Like, hate, or indifferent to trans characters being in a game, the idea that one was added as part of an insidious political agenda is tinfoil hat stuff. But do I seriously have to defend that? Is crap like this "review" really the level of debate here?
The transsexual is just one of the catalysts.
Most of the complaints I've seen have been about the off the cuff nature, the poor reaction, lack of missed opportunity, and for some (such as myself) the fact it gets tiring that this stuff is polluting something that we love.
You know, I strongly believe that part of the reason it feels wrong in Baldur's Gate for a lot of people is because of the ideological warfare going on everywhere in the media. When you can't pick up a newspaper without hearing people's opinions about Caitlyn Jenner, or whether or not North Carolina (my home state) is just a bunch of backwards redneck assholes because there's controversy over where you can use the toilet, well...you don't want to open up Baldur's Gate and get slapped with an NPC who feels really forced on you (especially given the fact you cannot be rude to the NPC concerning her story).
And part of the reason that makes people feel uncomfortable is because of posts like yours that disparage them for feeling uncomfortable. Or those calling them bigots, or dismissing their feelings, etc. That helps nobody. Least of all people who are the subject matter.
There are two sides to every coin and we can't accurately appraise it unless we look at both. Being nice to people wouldn't kill anyone.
Yet, people only really start to notice this and demand it be done differently when the option missing is "being shitty to someone who might be trans".
EDIT: I don't really mean to come across so bitchy, but the way people have gone crazy finding fault over a minor character, yet ignored those same faults that have been littered throughout all the infinity engine games beforehand, does suggest it's something specific to that character that's the real problem.
The character, Victoria, was a vampire and actually began as an antagonist (she was the right hand of a bigger bad) who eventually defected to the party's side after several encounters (she got stomped by the party each time they got into it) and one of her "sisters" (in the coven sense) was the ward of the party's Paladin.
One of the PCs set out to find an instantaneous (e.g. cannot be dispelled) to right her situation. It was, I felt, quite charming and it was nice when they succeeded. But the character was a person first. The party didn't even realize Victoria was actually once Victor and still technically male until quite a while later, and only after one of the other coven vampires sort-of-teased her about it (after accidentally calling her Victor), and even still it was quite a ways into the character's existence in the campaign before it became a thing.
One of my other tg friends was playing in the game (the "sister" in the coven in fact) and she was nothing but elated by Victoria's presence, and was a big part of getting Victoria over to "team PC-Party". If Victoria had have been just matter o' fact about it, she wouldn't have been nearly as enamored with her.
Everything else, aside from the Minsc line, is after-the-fact justification for what had already been done. Usually accompanied by distortion and lies, such as you saying "writers admittance".
You sir are a liar. You hurt my internet feelings.
(Hell, I'd wonder what a pre- and post-curse Edwin would have said about this.)
But...you're pretty much just given the option to talk about something else, politely compliment her name, etc. It's very bland and you don't even get the option to just be generally skeptical or something (like you do with Neera in Beregost).
It comes off as very odd, and when combined with the media wars going on outside of the game, well...whether intentional or not, it does look awfully suspect.
But thankyou for making my point.
Pro Tip when entering a discussion/debate don't pick a side then ask the opposing side for information on why you chose a side.
I've played the game and didn't have nearly as bad a time as all you lot complaining seem to have. There were a quite a few bits I thought could be better, but I definitely enjoyed the game overall. Apparently I was wrong to enjoy it though, according to people like you.
I'm asking you what the problems are because I want to understand from someone who didn't enjoy the game why they are so against it. Did you find the "trans" controversy to be a bit ridiculous when you actually met the character? What did you think of the questionable ethics of the coalition? What were the good fights?
I'm asking you because I've read some of the problems other people have complained about, but mostly it's all this cult-like nonsense about SJWs that barely talks about the gameplay or experience. I want you as someone who has played the game to tell me as someone who has played the game what exactly it is that I missed that is so bad, in detail.
Because people feel that if they find out someone is transgendered and they can't be rude to them, they're being forced to accept this person as a PC and in real life.
Boo. Effing. Hoo.
(Also, you have to inquire about the NPC not once, but twice to get the story. There is nothing indicating "click here for progressive feels, y'all!" near them. In what way, realistically, can be it be considered "forced"? Quite the contrary, it would be appropriate to say it is "hidden".) There is no need to treat "people who are comfortable with trans characters being in a game" and "people who are uncomfortable with trans characters being in a game" as moral and intellectually equal sides. They aren't. The first side is right, and the second side is wrong. Period.
Now, the world is what it is, popular media is what it is, and I don't feel being in the second group makes you or anyone else necessarily a terrible person. You are quite possibly, even likely, not "evil". But you are in the wrong.
The inclusion of trans people in a setting is not ideological anything. It is a reflection of real life, where trans people also exist. All settings that are intended to reflect real life should have trans people - it should be the default, not exceptional. And the people who oppose this are, again, wrong.
It's true that not everyone is very nice and considerate in pointing this out. I am sorry if you feel like people are turning you into a bigot, because I don't assume in real life you're actively anti-trans simply due to your posts here. But if you're going to be honest with yourself, you know perfectly well which side got ugly and nasty first and to a much greater degree. And if you are uncomfortable, just imagine how uncomfortable a trans person might feel seeing the sort of things that have been and continue to be said just on this forum, to say nothing of the wider internet, in the past week. Like the video of killing Mizhena that got so much support on Youtube, or various posters who keep coming in here and saying awful things until they get banned.
That is a lot of bad juju, and in the midst of that, can you blame progressive and moderate posters for not really paying a lot of heed to your feelings? Particularly when it wasn't until this post that you even started talking about your personal situation and why it feels that you're unfairly under attack?
Anyway, I do feel for you. I'm sure it sucks feeling under attack just for where you live, and I can understand why you'd feel a trans character in a classic old-school-style game would be unexpected and unwelcome to you, under these circumstances. But regardless of those reasons, you are still wrong to feel uncomfortable. It doesn't make you the worst person in the world, a Nazi, or a bigot... but you are still wrong, and I can't compromise on that just because I sympathise with your situation.
EDIT: It's quite hard to have a discussion/debate if the opposing side won't tell you what their opinions actually are and why they hold those opinions. Especially if it's your "side" that is trying to achieve some sort of change. Pro. Tip.
Typing this made me laugh.
I think 90% of what Beamdog has done has been excellent, and I'm really pleased they've resurrected the game I also grew up with. I'd like to see them produce more IE/BG games.
The biggest problem I had with SoD was
So to summarise it could be just a big coincidence, all this stuff has happened. But for me personally I smell a serious amount sjw agenda being pushed. And like with all games it's not stopped asap it will destroy the ip. If they want to continue to push the agenda make a new game not related, atleast then people chose that agenda it's not tricked/forced on them.
For Me It Was the female overhauls and minsc talking about gamer gate ethics that were more agenda pushing and sacrilegious then the transsexual.