The way Gwyndolin is presented. The use of "he/him/his" pronouns on items such as the Darkmoon Seance Ring and referring to her as Gwyn's son, raised as a daughter because of her connection to the moon.
This would not be an appropriate approach with Mizhena as she is unambiguously presented as a woman.
The two characters aren't really very comparable at all.
I think that speaks volumes. One, she just was, and that was that. The other...well, not so much.
Nope. She's not presented as transgender. She's presented as a man who was raised as a woman. Masculine pronouns were used to describe her. The two characters are not comparable in this sense.
I mean, when think about how they were presented. One feels like "Here's a character and stuff, who happens to be trans", versus "Here's a trans, who also happens to be a character and stuff", and that's actually one of the issues I've got with it.
Neither characterization is correct. The game never presents Gwyndolin as anything but a man who was raised as a girl because connection to the moon, which is deemed feminine. Gwyndolin is not presented as a trans character, nor is she widely perceived by the Dark Souls fandom as a transgender character. I personally see her as trans, but that's my own interpretation of the character, and the reason I use feminine pronouns.
Further, Mizhena's representation is not "Here's a trans person, who happens to be a character and stuff." Her representation is an NPC cleric who provides healing etc. for your party. If you question her about her name you can find out she's trans. However, it does not come up again, and certainly does not come up in the three quests she's connected to.
In the D&D game with the character Victoria (I mentioned earlier), the fact she happened to be transgendered was just a minor trait to the character and initially wasn't given any more measure or attention than the party's Paladin was for being a dude (at least until one of the PCs decided that she was going to try to get her some instantaneous magic to allow her to flip the coin).
Mizhena's transition is a minor part of the character, mentioned in response to questioning, but otherwise not elaborated upon.
"Nope. She's not presented as transgender. She's presented as a man who was raised as a woman. Masculine pronouns were used to describe her. The two characters are not comparable in this sense."
"Transgender means your gender identity differs to some extent (from partially to completely) from your sex assigned at birth."
I don't see how you can say Gwyndolin not trans. Clearly it was acknowledged at birth his gender is male. However, when you meet Gwyndolin, it's clearly female. Can you explain the disconnect?
"Nope. She's not presented as transgender. She's presented as a man who was raised as a woman. Masculine pronouns were used to describe her. The two characters are not comparable in this sense."
"Transgender means your gender identity differs to some extent (from partially to completely) from your sex assigned at birth."
I don't see how you can say Gwyndolin not trans. Clearly it was acknowledged at birth his gender is male. However, when you meet Gwyndolin, it's clearly female. Can you explain the disconnect?
I did not say Gwyndolin was or was not trans. I said for the umpteenth time that the fans largely do not see Gwyndolin as a trans character. In my post previous to this one I linked to a discussion on this topic wherein you can find Dark Souls fans happily insisting that Gwyndolin is not transgender and that people who see her as transgender are terrible. Here, I'll link it again for you.
I also said that I personally see Gwyndolin as transgender but that is not the perspective offered by the game Dark Souls (wherein she is consistently referred to with masculine pronouns and described as Gwyn's son) nor the interpretation the majority of Dark Souls fans take from the game.
That is why there is no outcry over Gwyndolin being transgender - very few people see her as transgender.
Now please, stop trying to shift the goalposts over to whether or not Gwyndolin is transgender. That's not what you asked. What you asked is why she didn't prompt an outcry, and I have answered you about a half-dozen times already. The question you asked has nothing to do with whether Gwyndolin is transgender, but rather how the fans viewed her and how that drove their reactions to the game.
The way Gwyndolin is presented. The use of "he/him/his" pronouns on items such as the Darkmoon Seance Ring and referring to her as Gwyn's son, raised as a daughter because of her connection to the moon.
This would not be an appropriate approach with Mizhena as she is unambiguously presented as a woman.
The two characters aren't really very comparable at all.
I think that speaks volumes. One, she just was, and that was that. The other...well, not so much.
Nope. She's not presented as transgender. She's presented as a man who was raised as a woman. Masculine pronouns were used to describe her. The two characters are not comparable in this sense.
I mean, when think about how they were presented. One feels like "Here's a character and stuff, who happens to be trans", versus "Here's a trans, who also happens to be a character and stuff", and that's actually one of the issues I've got with it.
Neither characterization is correct. The game never presents Gwyndolin as anything but a man who was raised as a girl because connection to the moon, which is deemed feminine. Gwyndolin is not presented as a trans character, nor is she widely perceived by the Dark Souls fandom as a transgender character. I personally see her as trans, but that's my own interpretation of the character, and the reason I use feminine pronouns.
Further, Mizhena's representation is not "Here's a trans person, who happens to be a character and stuff." Her representation is an NPC cleric who provides healing etc. for your party. If you question her about her name you can find out she's trans. However, it does not come up again, and certainly does not come up in the three quests she's connected to.
In the D&D game with the character Victoria (I mentioned earlier), the fact she happened to be transgendered was just a minor trait to the character and initially wasn't given any more measure or attention than the party's Paladin was for being a dude (at least until one of the PCs decided that she was going to try to get her some instantaneous magic to allow her to flip the coin).
Mizhena's transition is a minor part of the character, mentioned in response to questioning, but otherwise not elaborated upon.
I stand corrected. I didn't remember seeing it when DA3 came out.
I suspect it was a lot less of an outcry that this whole thing, though. Anyway, I liked Krem.
Well a couple things: The topic was rehashed over and over on the Bioware forum much as Mizhena's been hashed over here. Also, Krem is a transgender man and typically they experience less discrimination, hatred, and violence than transgender women. That is, transgender women are treated worse than transgender men, and they are treated badly more frequently. It's not a surprise if a transgender woman receives a nastier reception than a transgender man.
1. You and I both agree Gwyndolin is trans 2. You and I both agree there was no controversy 3. There was no controversy due to the way Gwyndolin was presented 4. Ergo, there is a problem with the presentation of Mizhena
I stand corrected. I didn't remember seeing it when DA3 came out.
I suspect it was a lot less of an outcry that this whole thing, though. Anyway, I liked Krem.
Well a couple things: The topic was rehashed over and over on the Bioware forum much as Mizhena's been hashed over here. Also, Krem is a transgender man and typically they experience less discrimination, hatred, and violence than transgender women. That is, transgender women are treated worse than transgender men, and they are treated badly more frequently. It's not a surprise if a transgender woman receives a nastier reception than a transgender man.
Mizhena is getting stick from transgendered players too, I have noticed. the character just isn't executed well. Plain and simple.
As for the rest of your post, I will just take your word for it.
1. You and I both agree Gwyndolin is trans 2. You and I both agree there was no controversy 3. There was no controversy due to the way Gwyndolin was presented 4. Ergo, there is a problem with the presentation of Mizhena
That is a complete distortion of what I have told you. It doesn't matter what you or I think about Gwyndolin, what matters is what the majority of fans think, and what they think is that Gwyndolin is not transgender.
People aren't going to blow up over a character that they don't see as trans.
@BelleSorciere That's not twisting your words. You said you think G is trans and you said there was no controversy. How is that twisting words? Come on now.
@BelleSorciere That's not twisting your words. You said you think G is trans and you said there was no controversy. How is that twisting words? Come on now.
Now you're being disingenuous.
I also didn't say there was no controversy. You said there was no controversy, and I accepted that because I couldn't find evidence of a controversy and provided you an explanation as to why there apparently was not a controversy. You have ignored every single word I have written of explanation and latched onto me saying that I personally think that Gwyndolin is trans in order to undeservedly leap to your conclusion that there is something wrong with Mizhena's presentation.
I spelled it out for you several times. Try rereading what I wrote and not twisting my words to support your personal contention. What I wrote does not support your conclusion.
Krem in Dragon Age 3 was a superb character. Happened to be a transgendered person too.
No outcry over that one.
Really? Lets ask google... 2 sec later... well that didn't take long:
Example 1 Is Krem in the game just to be transgender? Yes, she's there just to promote that SJW crap, same with Dorian's quest being there just to show how homophobic his folks are. That was awful since I expected something more srs and turned out it's just some stupid crap about son feeling offended about his folks feeling offended about their son being homosex.
Game may as well be named Feminism & SJW Age instead of Dragon Age
Example 2 The game gets really preachy during one scene where Krem is present. Almost all the options get you lectured about Krem's gender identity.
Hey this one looks familiar example 3: I feel like Bioware have watered down certain evil choices in regard to player role-play. I mean you can certainly murder, but they've removed any choice to be a dick to queer people. You can't disapprove of Krem and you can't say mean words to Dorian about him being gay. I remember an article talking about how Bioware deliberately wanted the player character to be understanding, and not malicious. Which just shoe horns in the developer's morality into the game.
Example 4 Ok...First off..I'm gay and fully support the Trans community...But I just properly watched the cutscene in game where Krem explains his situation. The whole way that Iron bull was like, "You are a MAN Krem" and we support you...did not feel natural. It really did feel like they wanted to get the point across...which I have no issue with..but it was just all a bit blunt and obvious...
I actually kinda laughed a bit. So just to be clear..it's the writing I have issue with..not the situation. All a bit....just too tryhard for me.
Example 5 DA:I not only wasn't fresh, new, or made sense within the context of the story (see Krem) but is mostly influenced by this whole politically correct acceptance of the gay and trans community. I am all for support, but when your game-play stops being about the game and starts being about some real life political agenda it starts to be a problem.
Honestly it is more offensive to me that they are trying to force it rather than let it progress as it naturally should. It is like being the token black guy. Nobody thinks you are progressive or edgy for having a token black guy.
Example 6 I hated Iron Bull and Krem's stories and stopped playing DA:I shortly after meeting them, though I did know about them. They ruin everything I loved to love and hate about the qunari of Origins and DA2. They are blatant pandering with their nonsense. I'd be a-OK with a trans character-- not the idea that qunari would ever tolerate that.
Whether Gwyndolin is defined as trans specifically is of little concern. What concerns me, however, is that the character is clearly a character who does not fit into the traditional sexual binary scheme of male/female, which means that by all accounts, if it were simply a hatred of "the other"; Gwyndolin's lack of masculinity; or even "traps"; then it should stir "bigots" into a frenzy.
By your explanation, fans look at the character who doesn't fit into a traditional gender role*, but they just see Gwyndolin. That's fantastic! That's exactly the sort of thing that I'd love to see more of. It's just quiet acceptance for being what it is. People don't think of Gwyndolin as trans, even if they know Gwyndolin is a dude who was raised, looks like, and lives as a woman. They just think of Gwyndolin as Gwyndolin.
That's fawkin' awesome.
Gaming culture is actually very accepting, but in a "don't rock our boat" sort of way. If you're not trying to cram stuff down people's throats, they'll often accept the pill willingly. Especially if the pill is delicious and full of vitamins.
*: I've no issues with the traditional gender roles. A lot of it seems strongly rooted in biology as much as culture, and there's nothing wrong with just naturally falling into one of these traditional gender roles. In fact, many of us wish that we could with 100% satisfaction.
Example 4 Ok...First off..I'm gay and fully support the Trans community...But I just properly watched the cutscene in game where Krem explains his situation. The whole way that Iron bull was like, "You are a MAN Krem" and we support you...did not feel natural. It really did feel like they wanted to get the point across...which I have no issue with..but it was just all a bit blunt and obvious...
I actually kinda laughed a bit. So just to be clear..it's the writing I have issue with..not the situation. All a bit....just too tryhard for me.
Example 5 DA:I not only wasn't fresh, new, or made sense within the context of the story (see Krem) but is mostly influenced by this whole politically correct acceptance of the gay and trans community. I am all for support, but when your game-play stops being about the game and starts being about some real life political agenda it starts to be a problem.
Honestly it is more offensive to me that they are trying to force it rather than let it progress as it naturally should. It is like being the token black guy. Nobody thinks you are progressive or edgy for having a token black guy.
They think of Gwyndolin as a man. That's not ~fawkin' awesome~ when referring to a character that could be seen as a transgender woman. That is, in fact, pretty terrible. If Gwyndolin can be described as a transgender woman, then her identity as a woman is being erased by this "acceptance" you call fawkin' awesome.
Also, I believe the Japanese version of the game refers to Gwyndolin with feminine pronouns, but the vast majority of English speaking players haven't been exposed to that. I have no idea what the Japanese fans' reaction to the character has been, either.
Krem in Dragon Age 3 was a superb character. Happened to be a transgendered person too.
No outcry over that one.
No matter how he she was written, in the end, it was but a political statement. No outcry because he was the first transgender npc to tell us stuff in depth? The problem isn't one transgender npc, the problem is one transgender npc per game with nothing but teaching us what it is to be a transgender, when we buy games written "fantasy" on it.
@BelleSorciere Let me rephrase: you said you think G is trans and *agreed* there was no controversy. Sorry, I guess I was twisting your words.
But what I actually said was that the majority of fans don't view the character as a transgender woman - they view her as a man. There's not going to be controversy in response to a character people don't see as a trans character.
Krem in Dragon Age 3 was a superb character. Happened to be a transgendered person too.
No outcry over that one.
No matter how he she was written, in the end, it was but a political statement. No outcry because he was the first transgender npc to tell us stuff in depth? The problem isn't one transgender npc, the problem is one transgender npc per game with nothing but teaching us what it is to be a transgender, when we buy games written "fantasy" on it.
Clearly. When so many people are complaining not because of transgenderism but because of being fed a political agenda, well...that sucks, and they're not all lying. I'd imagine few of them are, actually.
Because (generally) people really aren't so hateful and bigoted, but nobody wants to get preached at.
Krem in Dragon Age 3 was a superb character. Happened to be a transgendered person too.
No outcry over that one.
Really? Lets ask google... 2 sec later... well that didn't take long:
Example 1 Is Krem in the game just to be transgender? Yes, she's there just to promote that SJW crap, same with Dorian's quest being there just to show how homophobic his folks are. That was awful since I expected something more srs and turned out it's just some stupid crap about son feeling offended about his folks feeling offended about their son being homosex.
Game may as well be named Feminism & SJW Age instead of Dragon Age
Example 2 The game gets really preachy during one scene where Krem is present. Almost all the options get you lectured about Krem's gender identity.
Hey this one looks familiar example 3: I feel like Bioware have watered down certain evil choices in regard to player role-play. I mean you can certainly murder, but they've removed any choice to be a dick to queer people. You can't disapprove of Krem and you can't say mean words to Dorian about him being gay. I remember an article talking about how Bioware deliberately wanted the player character to be understanding, and not malicious. Which just shoe horns in the developer's morality into the game.
Example 4 Ok...First off..I'm gay and fully support the Trans community...But I just properly watched the cutscene in game where Krem explains his situation. The whole way that Iron bull was like, "You are a MAN Krem" and we support you...did not feel natural. It really did feel like they wanted to get the point across...which I have no issue with..but it was just all a bit blunt and obvious...
I actually kinda laughed a bit. So just to be clear..it's the writing I have issue with..not the situation. All a bit....just too tryhard for me.
Example 5 DA:I not only wasn't fresh, new, or made sense within the context of the story (see Krem) but is mostly influenced by this whole politically correct acceptance of the gay and trans community. I am all for support, but when your game-play stops being about the game and starts being about some real life political agenda it starts to be a problem.
Honestly it is more offensive to me that they are trying to force it rather than let it progress as it naturally should. It is like being the token black guy. Nobody thinks you are progressive or edgy for having a token black guy.
Example 6 I hated Iron Bull and Krem's stories and stopped playing DA:I shortly after meeting them, though I did know about them. They ruin everything I loved to love and hate about the qunari of Origins and DA2. They are blatant pandering with their nonsense. I'd be a-OK with a trans character-- not the idea that qunari would ever tolerate that.
Those are comments from individuals. You can find stuff like that for any character in any game.
What I meant was a huge collective outcry, and people banding up to try and sink the game because of it.
@BelleSorciere The supposed fact that some people choose to view this trans character as male in no way invalidates my argument, come to think of it.
EDIT: I suppose we have arrived at the root of people's annoyance: the writer of SoD forces you to adopt their views as your (character's) own. The writer of Dark Souls does not.
@BelleSorciere The supposed fact that some people choose to view this trans character as male in no way invalidates my argument, come to think of it.
Oh so the fact that people don't view a character as trans in no way invalidates your claim that the character was received better as a trans character? If people don't view a character as trans, they're not going to react to the character as trans.
To perhaps put it more clearly, if you design a character who is a transgender woman, and the majority of fans see her as a man, what you've got is a failure. That failure may be due to how you presented the character (for example, using masculine pronouns everywhere), it may be due to prejudice, it may be a combination of the two. But it's not a good example of how to create a successful transgender character.
Comments
No outcry over that one.
Further, Mizhena's representation is not "Here's a trans person, who happens to be a character and stuff." Her representation is an NPC cleric who provides healing etc. for your party. If you question her about her name you can find out she's trans. However, it does not come up again, and certainly does not come up in the three quests she's connected to.
Have a link on the topic of whether Gwyndolin is seen as a transgender character or not. Mizhena's transition is a minor part of the character, mentioned in response to questioning, but otherwise not elaborated upon. Now that isn't true at all. Have a link. Have another one.
"Nope. She's not presented as transgender. She's presented as a man who was raised as a woman. Masculine pronouns were used to describe her. The two characters are not comparable in this sense."
"Transgender means your gender identity differs to some extent (from partially to completely) from your sex assigned at birth."
I don't see how you can say Gwyndolin not trans. Clearly it was acknowledged at birth his gender is male. However, when you meet Gwyndolin, it's clearly female. Can you explain the disconnect?
I also said that I personally see Gwyndolin as transgender but that is not the perspective offered by the game Dark Souls (wherein she is consistently referred to with masculine pronouns and described as Gwyn's son) nor the interpretation the majority of Dark Souls fans take from the game.
That is why there is no outcry over Gwyndolin being transgender - very few people see her as transgender.
Now please, stop trying to shift the goalposts over to whether or not Gwyndolin is transgender. That's not what you asked. What you asked is why she didn't prompt an outcry, and I have answered you about a half-dozen times already. The question you asked has nothing to do with whether Gwyndolin is transgender, but rather how the fans viewed her and how that drove their reactions to the game.
I suspect it was a lot less of an outcry that this whole thing, though. Anyway, I liked Krem.
In conclusion
1. You and I both agree Gwyndolin is trans
2. You and I both agree there was no controversy
3. There was no controversy due to the way Gwyndolin was presented
4. Ergo, there is a problem with the presentation of Mizhena
As for the rest of your post, I will just take your word for it.
People aren't going to blow up over a character that they don't see as trans.
Stop twisting my words.
I also didn't say there was no controversy. You said there was no controversy, and I accepted that because I couldn't find evidence of a controversy and provided you an explanation as to why there apparently was not a controversy. You have ignored every single word I have written of explanation and latched onto me saying that I personally think that Gwyndolin is trans in order to undeservedly leap to your conclusion that there is something wrong with Mizhena's presentation.
I spelled it out for you several times. Try rereading what I wrote and not twisting my words to support your personal contention. What I wrote does not support your conclusion.
Example 1
Is Krem in the game just to be transgender? Yes, she's there just to promote that SJW crap, same with Dorian's quest being there just to show how homophobic his folks are. That was awful since I expected something more srs and turned out it's just some stupid crap about son feeling offended about his folks feeling offended about their son being homosex.
Game may as well be named Feminism & SJW Age instead of Dragon Age
Example 2
The game gets really preachy during one scene where Krem is present. Almost all the options get you lectured about Krem's gender identity.
Hey this one looks familiar example 3:
I feel like Bioware have watered down certain evil choices in regard to player role-play. I mean you can certainly murder, but they've removed any choice to be a dick to queer people.
You can't disapprove of Krem and you can't say mean words to Dorian about him being gay.
I remember an article talking about how Bioware deliberately wanted the player character to be understanding, and not malicious. Which just shoe horns in the developer's morality into the game.
Example 4
Ok...First off..I'm gay and fully support the Trans community...But I just properly watched the cutscene in game where Krem explains his situation. The whole way that Iron bull was like, "You are a MAN Krem" and we support you...did not feel natural. It really did feel like they wanted to get the point across...which I have no issue with..but it was just all a bit blunt and obvious...
I actually kinda laughed a bit. So just to be clear..it's the writing I have issue with..not the situation. All a bit....just too tryhard for me.
Example 5
DA:I not only wasn't fresh, new, or made sense within the context of the story (see Krem) but is mostly influenced by this whole politically correct acceptance of the gay and trans community. I am all for support, but when your game-play stops being about the game and starts being about some real life political agenda it starts to be a problem.
Honestly it is more offensive to me that they are trying to force it rather than let it progress as it naturally should. It is like being the token black guy. Nobody thinks you are progressive or edgy for having a token black guy.
Example 6
I hated Iron Bull and Krem's stories and stopped playing DA:I shortly after meeting them, though I did know about them. They ruin everything I loved to love and hate about the qunari of Origins and DA2. They are blatant pandering with their nonsense. I'd be a-OK with a trans character-- not the idea that qunari would ever tolerate that.
By your explanation, fans look at the character who doesn't fit into a traditional gender role*, but they just see Gwyndolin. That's fantastic! That's exactly the sort of thing that I'd love to see more of. It's just quiet acceptance for being what it is. People don't think of Gwyndolin as trans, even if they know Gwyndolin is a dude who was raised, looks like, and lives as a woman. They just think of Gwyndolin as Gwyndolin.
That's fawkin' awesome.
Gaming culture is actually very accepting, but in a "don't rock our boat" sort of way. If you're not trying to cram stuff down people's throats, they'll often accept the pill willingly. Especially if the pill is delicious and full of vitamins.
*: I've no issues with the traditional gender roles. A lot of it seems strongly rooted in biology as much as culture, and there's nothing wrong with just naturally falling into one of these traditional gender roles. In fact, many of us wish that we could with 100% satisfaction.
Also, I believe the Japanese version of the game refers to Gwyndolin with feminine pronouns, but the vast majority of English speaking players haven't been exposed to that. I have no idea what the Japanese fans' reaction to the character has been, either.
Because (generally) people really aren't so hateful and bigoted, but nobody wants to get preached at.
What I meant was a huge collective outcry, and people banding up to try and sink the game because of it.
EDIT: I suppose we have arrived at the root of people's annoyance: the writer of SoD forces you to adopt their views as your (character's) own. The writer of Dark Souls does not.
Basic logic.