Something just came to me. Interestingly, there is a trans character in Dark Souls. For some reason, that never threw up a shitstorm. Perhaps, and I mean just maybe, there is something wrong with the presentation of the character in this game.
Dark Souls is an action game, not a real RPG game. It's written off as a RPG game but you know what I mean. Most players of those kind of games just skip lines and follow the quest arrow or some crap. I bet most players didn't even notice there was a transgender Npc.
Can you clarify, then? Because it certainly reads like you're saying that if nobody said boo about Dark Sun Gwyndolin, there must be something wrong with Mizhena to have evoked that kind of reaction.
@shawne I am not saying it definitely is so, I'm saying thought should be given. Why is Mizhena having this effect while other trans character in games are not?
Now people are going to be cyberstalking others to make sure they're who they say they are... Crazy. I think it's time to move on and for people on both sides to stop using the game as their ideological battleground.
Yes, when one side has a history of creating fake accounts who claim to be part of the group being discussed, it becomes necessary to confirm. They put themselves in this situation by using dishonest tactics like sockpuppets in the first place.
The last time someone showed me evidence of why "SJWs are bad people and must be punished" I got:
* Links to troll blogs that were run by anti-social justice types * Links to joke posts * Links to people saying SJWs were horrible people out to ruin anything * And a laundry list of actions that were not actually that bad taken in context
I have yet to see a well-argued case for so-called "SJWs" existing, let alone being such horrible people.
I explained it a few pages back pretty well, they are evil. They want equality which most would think is good, but in a lore driven game it's horrible.
#1. How is it horrible? You're still just making statements about things and people being horrible, evil, awful, etc... You're not actually explaining why, which is the important thing.
@shawne I am not saying it definitely is so, I'm saying thought should be given. Why is Mizhena having this effect while other trans character in games are not?
But other trans characters are, that's the point. Ask David Gaider about Krem, he'll tell you. Or ask the creator of Read Only Memories why the game was mocked and labeled a "SJW Game" because it included two minor characters who were trans women (sound familiar?)
The only reason older characters like Birdo, Poison and Flea aren't "controversial" is because you're supposed to laugh at them. Hell, you're supposed to laugh at Edwina. The only thing that's changed is that transgender characters aren't the butt of the joke anymore, and a certain subsection of people don't know how to handle that.
@Mephiston87: OK, I went back and read a bunch of your earlier comments, and I think I have a better idea about where you're coming from. Your heart seems much closer to the right place than I had assumed. Here's my very serious advice for you: stop talking about how much you hate "SJWs" all the time. They don't exist the way you're imagining them, and you're antagonizing people you would otherwise find common ground with by constantly returning to that theme. No one I've seen here is campaigning for the future you're worried about, and the people here who want more representation in games generally have broader reasons and goals for that. Honestly, I think their core values probably aren't all that far from your own.
Sjw is a messy term but since the gamer gate crap, sjw in gaming terms has become about equality whether it's races or sexes or whatever. That's why it's just easier to say equality because each group seems to want something, and the only way to make them All 100 percent happy would be equality. Some companies have nailed it perfectly like the elder scrolls series, you basically have everything in them and it's well done. But there are few games that can allow such equality within their lore. Sjw's don't care about lore. They just want equality. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is my understanding.
Well, from my point of view, the GamerGate side doesn't actually care about Lore either. I think that is just one of the many shields they hide behind so they can complain about diversity in games while avoiding being called bigots. The reality is that most of the time Lore isn't actually a problem. People say the transgendered character in this game goes against Lore but the person who created the entire world in which this game is set said transgendered people exist within that world. I'm pretty sure he is more of an expert on his own creation than any of us. I'm seeing the same type of nonsense when they complain about diversity in movies, like with The Force Awakens. We had people complaining that a black guy can't be a storm trooper because they are clones. So being the star wars expert that I am, I point out to them that the storm troopers and clone troopers are not the same and that the Empire stopped using clones in favor of human recruits.
Its pretty irritating when people start screaming about Lore while not actually having a clue what they are talking about... lol
"trans person responds to the trans npc situation"
This looks a lot like when a guy steps in and before stating his opinion, he says "I've been in the military for 20 years, served in Iraq, South Korea, I got a medal of honor, I gave my sweat and tears to my country and fought for your freedom, and now my opinion is bla bla bla"
Is it really that horrible if there are as many black protagonists as white protagonists?
Like your idea of what's going on is a laughable conspiracy theory, but you are seriously saying that the ~sinister SJW agenda~ is to get more representation for marginalized groups like it's something horrible that should never happen.
This says a lot about your perspective. Makes it clear what you really think.
So you think there should be more Asians and black people in the lord of the rings games? You think Scientology should be brought to medieval games? You think my colony space station that has grown from 3 Asian peoples gene's should somehow produce black and white people too?
Pulled this up for a platform to stand on.
In the war of orcs and dwarves the seven houses of the dwarves united to aid the longbeards. This included three dwarven houses located in the Far East where Asian ethnic-ish groups were dominant. I, for one, thought that it would have been very interesting to have Asian type dwarves from there.
No they shouldn't be randomly placed in, but with the right context it could really add to the game world.
I do agree with much of the OPs comments and opinions but at the same time agree with some of the other posts criticizing some of what she said.
While I agree that trans characters can and should be included, I dont really feel that the way this one was included was correct. I understand through the other posts that there was a limit into how much could be said and agree with the few posts that stated that this could have been done with lore more in mind and they way it was written comes off as a politically correct version of what should be said and sticks out and comes across much faster than what the average trans person would out themselves outside of any political activist setting, at least as far as Ive witnessed from my own experience, sans one time where I asked someone out and they came out with it fairly quickly after.
It seems to be from other posts the character came partially out of boredom from writing normative characters but was limited to how much could be written but really didnt go into much thought of what it would do for and against the trans community, or what peoples perception would be of how it was written and didnt really discuss why it wasnt written with lore more in mind rather than just give a transplaining introduction to the issue without a very limited amount of background. Maybe it could have been handled better maybe nothing more than a hello in the first chapter. When you have to ask her favors in quests maybe a bit more chummy conversations, and let the information out over time. It would seem that a key component that was missed was getting to know the hero over time before just coming out with the information.
We have real issues that need addressing, but we end up with stupid stuff like "manspreading"
I think you've said you live in the Bible Belt, so I assume that you have personal space to spare. I wouldn't expect you to understand the rage induced by this egregious violation of the unwritten Law of the Subway.
Except every picture I've ever seen that someone's taken to show the dreaded "manspreading", it's when there are plenty of open seats, and it ignores women with their bags and stuff spread out next to them, often in the same pictures. And we've got public transportation here too, thanks.
Also, as I noted, vitriolic terms like "mansplaining", which you didn't mention.
More seriously, if it wasn't already clear that "SJW" is a made-up term for imagined boogeymen, then I hope this clues everyone in.
Oh no? In this very thread (right here), a poster is rude; hateful; insulting; and hurtful; intentionally so; readily responding at me instead of to me; called me anti-trans (there's a certain problem with that line of reasoning...); made assumptions about my person because of a controversy going on in my state; lectured me that games should have trans people in them (I never said they shouldn't, I said I don't want to be somebody's political agenda or forced on others, because that only breeds contention that we have to deal with in our own lives; and I said that I was disappointed that it was so matter o' fact and a missed opportunity); and I sit here now, listening to someone lecture me on how I don't understand public transportation because of where I live (like we don't have public transportation, or places where there is limited space and everyone has to sit next to each other politely).
You say they don't exist. However, many of us see them everyday. I've been on the receiving end of their "help" before. Again, it goes back to the old adage, "Don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining".
And what a surprise, this Jinx person has their account set on private and they have only posted in that one thread they made. Yeah, i'd say its a safe bet that this was yet another sockpuppet trying to give the GG argument some credibility. What they don't realize is that having someone say they are LGBT, black, female, or whatever doesn't automatically give the argument credibility.
Something just came to me. Interestingly, there is a trans character in Dark Souls. For some reason, that never threw up a shitstorm. Perhaps, and I mean just maybe, there is something wrong with the presentation of the character in this game.
Dark Souls is an action game, not a real RPG game. It's written off as a RPG game but you know what I mean. Most players of those kind of games just skip lines and follow the quest arrow or some crap. I bet most players didn't even notice there was a transgender Npc.
I have watched more Dark Souls LPs than is humanly reasonable and while every LPer I watched was aware that Gwyndolin was raised as a girl, none of them expressed the view that they saw her as transgender. It looks like the community consensus on Gwyndolin is not that she is trans, but that she was raised as a girl because of her connection to the moon.
Dark Souls is as much an action RPG as Diablo is, which is to say it fits in the category.
Dave Gross wrote Hexxat's story; Andrew Foley wrote her dialogue; Phil Daigle oversaw her implementation. Amber Scott wasn't even working for Beamdog at that point.
@BelleSorciere Doesn't trans mean that your gender identity is opposite to your biological one?
Transgender means your gender identity differs to some extent (from partially to completely) from your sex assigned at birth. There are more genders than "man" and "woman" and it says a lot that people consistently place those genders in opposition (as you did in your question).
I have watched more Dark Souls LPs than is humanly reasonable and while every LPer I watched was aware that Gwyndolin was raised as a girl, none of them expressed the view that they saw her as transgender.
I have watched more Dark Souls LPs than is humanly reasonable and while every LPer I watched was aware that Gwyndolin was raised as a girl, none of them expressed the view that they saw her as transgender.
That sounds delightful.
It was delightful. I enjoy Dark Souls and I enjoy LPs. It's not boring for seeing the same places and same bosses over and over again because the youtubers' personalities and commentary styles are the point.
Now Bloodborne...if I could find someone who did an LP with anything but the saw cleaver, I would be happy.
@BelleSorciere So how is G not trans by that definition?
Fact is, the "trans" adjective cannot really apply here. Because it's an other world, with others rules. We can say she is a "gender conformity challenging" character maybe (i dont really like this term, but it seems to be the better in this case), not in regard of her own world rules, but in regard to our one.
It's not the same thing but look like Bridget from Guilty Gear XX, because words are shaped for our own world it not really fit very good some fictional situation.
@BelleSorciere So how is G not trans by that definition?
I haven't said whether Gwyndolin is or is not trans. What I have said is that I don't think Dark Souls fans as a collective see her as trans. That's one possible reason why there wasn't any reaction to her presence in Dark Souls as compared to Mizhena, Krem, etc.
The way Gwyndolin is presented. The use of "he/him/his" pronouns on items such as the Darkmoon Seance Ring and referring to her as Gwyn's son, raised as a daughter because of her connection to the moon.
This would not be an appropriate approach with Mizhena as she is unambiguously presented as a woman.
The two characters aren't really very comparable at all.
The way Gwyndolin is presented. The use of "he/him/his" pronouns on items such as the Darkmoon Seance Ring and referring to her as Gwyn's son, raised as a daughter because of her connection to the moon.
This would not be an appropriate approach with Mizhena as she is unambiguously presented as a woman.
The two characters aren't really very comparable at all.
I think that speaks volumes. One, she just was, and that was that. The other...well, not so much.
I mean, when think about how they were presented. One feels like "Here's a character and stuff, who happens to be trans", versus "Here's a trans, who also happens to be a character and stuff", and that's actually one of the issues I've got with it.
In the D&D game with the character Victoria (I mentioned earlier), the fact she happened to be transgendered was just a minor trait to the character and initially wasn't given any more measure or attention than the party's Paladin was for being a dude (at least until one of the PCs decided that she was going to try to get her some instantaneous magic to allow her to flip the coin).
Comments
#2. Explain how it goes against the Lore.
The only reason older characters like Birdo, Poison and Flea aren't "controversial" is because you're supposed to laugh at them. Hell, you're supposed to laugh at Edwina. The only thing that's changed is that transgender characters aren't the butt of the joke anymore, and a certain subsection of people don't know how to handle that.
Its pretty irritating when people start screaming about Lore while not actually having a clue what they are talking about... lol
This looks a lot like when a guy steps in and before stating his opinion, he says "I've been in the military for 20 years, served in Iraq, South Korea, I got a medal of honor, I gave my sweat and tears to my country and fought for your freedom, and now my opinion is bla bla bla"
To each their own heroes I suppose.
In the war of orcs and dwarves the seven houses of the dwarves united to aid the longbeards. This included three dwarven houses located in the Far East where Asian ethnic-ish groups were dominant. I, for one, thought that it would have been very interesting to have Asian type dwarves from there.
No they shouldn't be randomly placed in, but with the right context it could really add to the game world.
While I agree that trans characters can and should be included, I dont really feel that the way this one was included was correct. I understand through the other posts that there was a limit into how much could be said and agree with the few posts that stated that this could have been done with lore more in mind and they way it was written comes off as a politically correct version of what should be said and sticks out and comes across much faster than what the average trans person would out themselves outside of any political activist setting, at least as far as Ive witnessed from my own experience, sans one time where I asked someone out and they came out with it fairly quickly after.
It seems to be from other posts the character came partially out of boredom from writing normative characters but was limited to how much could be written but really didnt go into much thought of what it would do for and against the trans community, or what peoples perception would be of how it was written and didnt really discuss why it wasnt written with lore more in mind rather than just give a transplaining introduction to the issue without a very limited amount of background. Maybe it could have been handled better maybe nothing more than a hello in the first chapter. When you have to ask her favors in quests maybe a bit more chummy conversations, and let the information out over time. It would seem that a key component that was missed was getting to know the hero over time before just coming out with the information.
Also, as I noted, vitriolic terms like "mansplaining", which you didn't mention. Oh no? In this very thread (right here), a poster is rude; hateful; insulting; and hurtful; intentionally so; readily responding at me instead of to me; called me anti-trans (there's a certain problem with that line of reasoning...); made assumptions about my person because of a controversy going on in my state; lectured me that games should have trans people in them (I never said they shouldn't, I said I don't want to be somebody's political agenda or forced on others, because that only breeds contention that we have to deal with in our own lives; and I said that I was disappointed that it was so matter o' fact and a missed opportunity); and I sit here now, listening to someone lecture me on how I don't understand public transportation because of where I live (like we don't have public transportation, or places where there is limited space and everyone has to sit next to each other politely).
You say they don't exist. However, many of us see them everyday. I've been on the receiving end of their "help" before. Again, it goes back to the old adage, "Don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining".
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197977132426
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197977132426/posthistory/
Its amazing how these accounts are usually new or have no posting history other than when a controversy happens.
Dark Souls is as much an action RPG as Diablo is, which is to say it fits in the category.
Now Bloodborne...if I could find someone who did an LP with anything but the saw cleaver, I would be happy.
It's not the same thing but look like Bridget from Guilty Gear XX, because words are shaped for our own world it not really fit very good some fictional situation.
This would not be an appropriate approach with Mizhena as she is unambiguously presented as a woman.
The two characters aren't really very comparable at all.
In the D&D game with the character Victoria (I mentioned earlier), the fact she happened to be transgendered was just a minor trait to the character and initially wasn't given any more measure or attention than the party's Paladin was for being a dude (at least until one of the PCs decided that she was going to try to get her some instantaneous magic to allow her to flip the coin).