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  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,822
    it might have been due to my game bugging out and not getting that much of M'Khiin's banter and quest related stuff when i used her.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    Ah yeah, that might be it. One gripe I do have about SoD is that a lot of the companions kinda require you to bring them with you all the time or you'll miss out on stuff. I remember having to do a massive reload back to an early save after I'd screwed something up with Neera's companion quest and the final encounter just wouldn't trigger properly.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,301
    It's the same with the romances, you only see all dialogues if you have the romance interest with you in all areas (or are very, very lucky). SoD gives us this cool camp with all NPCs to switch to and fro and then uses incrementing romance trigger variables coupled to specific areas.

    Sorry for beging OT a second time. The thread was supposed to be about something nice. -.-

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,454
    @Zaxares "IIRC, Corwin was indeed planned to show up in BG2 with a squad of Flaming Fist, and there would have been an option to convince Corwin of your innocence, and possibly even get her to join your party. I suspect this would have also opened the door to provide a more suitable resolution for the Skie-Soultaker storyline."

    That's exactly it. Andrew Foley revealed in an interview that was basically how Soultaker was gonna be resolved. It seemed like a decent sized questline too. On one of the later livestreams (which Beamdog doesn't do anymore) it was also revealed that the dagger would be found on a return trip to a ruined Chateu Irenicus, where somone else has taken up residence after Irenicus left. What information we have sounds so interesting that I'm honestly kinda mad that this never came to fruition.
    I kinda wanna start poking @AndrewFoley to pull a Gaider and help the community realize this with a mod. But I don't wanna annoy him. Consider this my gentle nudge Mr. Foley! You've done some of my favorite video game writing in recent years. Thanks you so much for bringing us Mkhiin!

    JuliusBorisovAerakarlolien
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 664
    The overall continuity is a bit of a mess now since they couldn't finish the Soultaker plot satisfactorily. In hindsight using Irenicus probably wasn't a good idea if they weren't absolutely sure they were allowed to conclude it properly, but we'll see...Maybe there is a possibility of an ascension similar mod to iron out the holes that SoD weren't allowed to close. Though from Andrews posts about SoDs overall developement. I think some of the blame falls on how they chose to handle some of the plot stubs in the first place.

    An overall complaint I have about Beamdogs characters is that while the writing improved overall with the new SoD characters...They aren't that good at writing evil characters or even handling them in party banters.

    There's only so much you can do about Dorns character, before goes completely over the top in BG2 and he didn't have anything interesting going for him in Dragonspear... Hexxat is..well hexxat :s

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,454
    @batoor I think you missed the point of this thread.

    elminster
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 664
    edited August 21
    I think you've seen me post often enough both negative and positive(which I even had in that post) to know where I stand on this and if you're worried about scaring Andrew away. I'm sure he's heard far worse...

    The framework of a good story is in SoD and it's enjoyable.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 845
    M'Khiin is cool. I really like her. Now I'm glad that most party members left, because I probably wouldn't have dumped anyone to take her along, and would have missed out on an interesting character. It's worth the -2 rep, even for a paladin.

    ThacoBelltypo_tilly
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 347
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,301
    PsicoVic wrote: »
    They are not Bioware.

    Care to elaborate?

  • CicatrixCicatrix Member Posts: 12
    batoor wrote: »
    An overall complaint I have about Beamdogs characters is that while the writing improved overall with the new SoD characters...They aren't that good at writing evil characters or even handling them in party banters.

    There's only so much you can do about Dorns character, before goes completely over the top in BG2 and he didn't have anything interesting going for him in Dragonspear... Hexxat is..well hexxat :s

    I was also frustrated that Dorn and Hexxat are "EVIL" instead of "evil" like Viconia. But people who want a party made up of real evil monsters didn't have many options before.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    Ehh, I don't know if I'd count Hexxat as being EVIL with a capital E. (Dorn certainly is though!) It seems that the consequences of Hexxat's vampiric curse are really downplayed in BG2; we never see her actually going out to hunt civilians for blood (although companion banter does allude to this), and we don't know if she actually kills her victims or simply drinks from them. Her behaviour in general appears more Neutral, a sort of "I'll get the job done" pragmatism that nonetheless doesn't show her otherwise going out of her way to cause pain and suffering (a hallmark of Evil characters) in her line of work.

    typo_tilly
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,454
    @Zaxares Hexxat freely admits to being a serial killer that targets young women. Capital "E" evil.

  • CicatrixCicatrix Member Posts: 12
    For me the objection is that Hexxat and Dorn don't make sense in a neutral party with characters like Jaheira or Haer'Dalis much less a good character like Imoen. From a RP perspective they only work in an all-evil party.

    But you can flip that around and say that the vanilla game has too many characters that would never work in an all-evil party. BG2EE gives you access to 5 or 6 evil characters for a party of unholy mauraders if that's your thing.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Zaxares Hexxat freely admits to being a serial killer that targets young women. Capital "E" evil.

    Hmm, I don't recall ever having that conversation with her. Does it only come up in her romance dialogues?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,454
    Zaxares wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Zaxares Hexxat freely admits to being a serial killer that targets young women. Capital "E" evil.

    Hmm, I don't recall ever having that conversation with her. Does it only come up in her romance dialogues?

    No, I never romanced her. But I did constantly argue with her in the run I used her. You probably need to actively push her to get it. Maybe you need to be She freely admits to killing everyone that she feeds on, and that she likes to target young women. She also constantly tries to act like SHE is the victim despite this. Only Nalia calls her out on it.

    Kilivitz
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    Mmm, maybe I simply didn't have her in my party long/often enough for the banters to emerge. I just brought her along for her missions and then dropped her once they were done.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,586
    A bear killing a dear and eating it; Neutral.
    A cat playing with a mouse for hours, slowly tormenting it and then finally eating it; Neutral.
    A vampire that was made undead against her will and kills and eat a humanoid for self-preservation; Evil.
    Etc etc..

    The alignment system has always been stupid, will always be stupid and should never be taken for anything more than a RP gimmick. It was created with Humans at the centre where everything non-human are 'different'.

    Hexxat has evil alignment, hence she is evil. No RL logic can ever be applied to the games, just roll with it.

    Permidion_StarkJuliusBorisov
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    A vampire doesn't necessarily need to kill its victim during feeding though. Newly created vampires often do, usually because they're still flush with the bloodlust and the ecstasy that feeding brings (D&D vampires often claim that this joy they get from feeding is the only "pleasure" they can ever feel anymore as undead) and don't stop drinking even after they're actually "full". I haven't had a chance yet to dig deeper into Hexxat's dialogue files, so I still don't know what her behaviour and motivations during feeding are like. If she does indeed kill her victims while feeding, knowing that she didn't have to, that would definitely make her evil.

    megamike15ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,454
    @Skatan That logic only works if animals have the mental capacity to consciously resist instinct. Morality doesn't really apply to nature. Animals can't really comprehend morality, its about survival and instinct.

    Where Hexxat falls into evil, is that she can empathize. She is capable of knowing how her targets feel, can understand that she is causing suffering and ending a life selfishly, and chooses to continue to do so for her own satisfaction. She chooses to kill people, she doesn't even really try to limit her killing or to try and target criminals, the sick, those dying, etc. She goes out fo her way to target young women, despite nothing requiring her to do so. She is an unashamed serial killer. She is evil, because she CHOOSES to commit evil.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,586
    edited August 26
    I know to little of FR lore about vampires to make any assumptions @ThacoBell, so I can't really debate what you say. But I woulnd't be surprised if Vampires stop being human; thinking like humans, having human morality, when they indeed stop being human. Applying human morality on something that isn't human, is that the way to determine alignment? As said though, the alignment system was created around the human center, thus it is probably created to do just that. And that's exactly why I would not bother debating Hexxat's alignment because the game says she's evil, so she's evil. Her actions, her dialogue, has nothing to do with that. It's an absolute, not subjective.

    Personally, I've played with Hexxat twice IIRC, and I can't recall those things you state. I was rather under the impression she was kinda just doing what she needed to survive, but perhaps those things you mention do only come across proceeding down certain dialogue paths.

    Edit: Straying off topic again, and I guess I'm to blame for that :) Perhaps if this continue I will move them into a separate new thread instead.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,454
    @Skatan Spoiler tagged for the sake of the thread :D
    Hexxat is human enough to bemoan her existence as a vampire and can empathize enough to start a romance with the player. Its not like her psyche has changed to the point of being alien. She likes to justify her actions by playing the victim, while giving zero regard for HER victims. She will go on about how being a vampire is torture and unfait, yet does everything she can to prolong that existence. Nalia calls her out on this beautifully.

    Back on topic: Rasaad as a character is not only some of the best EE writing, but some of the best writing in the games in general.

    Skatan
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,586
    @ThacoBell Did you get to this dialogue by arguing against her? I guess perhaps my characters have been to "nice" in their responses and kinda accepted her, maybe that's why I never got to see that side of her.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,454
    Skatan wrote: »
    @ThacoBell Did you get to this dialogue by arguing against her? I guess perhaps my characters have been to "nice" in their responses and kinda accepted her, maybe that's why I never got to see that side of her.

    Oh yes. We did not get along at all. Its a wonder she never just up and left.

    Skatan
  • CicatrixCicatrix Member Posts: 12
    Hexxat could choose to feed on non-sentient animals or on evil people (much like a good-aligned Bhaalspawn that murders evil creatures.) She chooses instead to target the young women she finds sexually attractive. That is what makes her difficult to accept in a party with Imoen, whereas I could accept Viconia, Kagain or Korgan in a party with Imoen.

    But I don't want to take away from my general point that the new characters in Siege of Dragonspear were generally as good or better than the characters in the vanilla games. At least in my opinion.

    ThacoBell
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    Cicatrix wrote: »
    Hexxat could choose to feed on non-sentient animals or on evil people (much like a good-aligned Bhaalspawn that murders evil creatures.)
    The second part, yes, but in D&D, vampires MUST feed from other sapient races. According to Van Richten's Guide to Vampires, a vampire can, in desperate circumstances, survive on animal blood, but the vampire Van Richten was interrogating likened it to having to eat rotten and spoiled meat to survive. It doesn't "satisfy" the undead cravings of the vampire, and the vampire gets more and more desperate for human(oid) blood until it eventually goes berserk and attacks the nearest possible humanoid it can find.

    This is also why vampires invariably turn evil, because no matter how noble the soul of the person they were before, they eventually get corrupted by the negative energies and the demands of their new existence. They may feel guilt and shame over their first kill, but after the hundredth kill, it's like "add it to the pile, what's another one?" A truly good character who was turned into a vampire would seek to reverse their curse at once, not try to embrace their new existence.

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