Mechanically I thought Siege of Dragonspear was much, much, much better than BGEE and BG2EE. Both the new items and the new NPC's were genuinely enjoyable to play, and Beamdog did a great job of adding new items that boosted underpowered classes. If I had to pick a single thing it would be the NPC's.
Corwin, Glint and M'Khiin are all great additions to an adventuring group, and I didn't feel forced to bring them along just to explore new content as I did with Neera and Rasaad. (I haven't tried Voghiln, so I can't comment.) Corwin is maybe a tiny bit too powerful, but only in her role of filling enemies with arrows. Glint is the ultimate utility character. M'Khiin is a little underpowered but not so much as to make her a waste of group xp like Rasaad is.
I really like SoD and am very glad it exists. Whenever I play it, it feel like a notch up in quality from the original game in many ways. I like how it manages to integrate memorable sidequests with an urgent and fairly linear plot. It feels like IWD done right. Fighting the green dragon with a low level party is one of my more memorable BG moments, as is the quest with the Dwarven lich.
I really like the kit-specific equipment. It's such a great way to address balance issues without tampering with the base mechanics.
What I don't like is the general dislike that people seem to have towards SoD. I never understood it myself. I remember there being some sort of a controversy when it came out, but I can't remember what it was about...
[Googles Siege of Dragonspear controversy]
Oh, apparently there was a minor NPC that identifies as transgender and people took it as LGBT tokenism. Oh for the love of Lathander... Don't tell me this is what got people up in arms
Ah, I think I've just met her. I thought it was very matter-of-fact, just mentioning that her parents raised her as a boy, until they found out that she was actually a woman. Interesting what gets people into fights these days.
Oh, apparently there was a minor NPC that identifies as transgender and people took it as LGBT tokenism. Oh for the love of Lathander... Don't tell me this is what got people up in arms
Ah, I think I've just met her. I thought it was very matter-of-fact, just mentioning that her parents raised her as a boy, until they found out that she was actually a woman. Interesting what gets people into fights these days.
It was a real shame that the release of SoD was hijacked by some pretty despicable trolls. Maybe I am being naive but I do feel that the world has moved on somewhat over the last couple of years and I like to think that if they tried it again today they would be banished back to their basements where they belong.
It was a real shame that the release of SoD was hijacked by some pretty despicable trolls.
Indeed. I remember my first encounter with a couple of them in an online discussion, where I rated SoD roughly 2.5 out of 10. The exact wording of my comment escapes me, but it was along the lines of dreary writing, less than interesting potential party members etc.
Well, that naturally progressed into 4 people concluding that I was transphobic scum (that wording did however imprint on me). I naturally asked what the hell they were on about, which led to a four-pronged rant about how despicable people like me were for hating on someone called Mizhena, of whom I did not know jack at the time and had in fact not made any mention of.
I never managed to convince that quartet that I had no flipping idea who that computerized individual was right then. Naturally, I did after a couple of runs, but knowing that still hasn't changed my mind. I still think SoD is a total waste of time, even though that particular stance apparently is a big no-no in certain circles. Besides, I've yet to encounter any of the really die-hard fans online, who won't eventually end up posing the unyielding statement "SoD isn't great = I hate gender minorities", if only you bother to discuss that particular topic with them long enough without agreeing with them indiscriminately.
Which is why I've stopped doing that pretty much all together. The fecal matter always impacts the ventilator.
I thought the writing was generally very good. I thought they really captured the voices of the existing characters and I Ioved what they did with Skie. The only one of the new characters I have tried so far is Corwin but I really liked her (so much so that I would regard her as a first pick party member for future playthroughs). I thought the dungeons were fun and exciting. I did have a couple of very big problems - there was way too much Hooded Man and nowhere near enough Imoen - but when I was playing I felt like I was playing Baldur's Gate and I would say that is no mean feat to pull off.
The writing style was very different from the original games, but I think that's unavoidable for a modern game.
Many of the conventions of fanfiction have seeped into professional writing today. But in fairness Leo Tolstoy did a lot of the same stuff - most notably using himself as a Mary Sue character in all of his books. Siege of Dragonspear is at least better than stuff like the last few seasons of Dr. Who.
I generally avoid the romances is Baldur's Gate because I find them cringeworthy but I really enjoyed the Corwin romance. It was very well written and I thought it added a lot to the scenario.
i've only done neera's and corwin's. they are both pretty good. especially neera's which i think is much better then the first half of hers in bg 2.
i just wish they were longer. yeah i know sod is not that long of a game but only having 5 love talks seems to short.
@Verticor, I don't know what arguments you've gotten into in the past, but nobody here is going to tell you you're a horrible human being because you didn't like SoD. I know of only one person who acted that way towards SoD's critics on this forum, and we banned that person for just that behavior.
It sounds like you were mistaken for one of Mizhena's numerous transphobic enemies. I'm guessing it was hard to see your criticisms for what they were because the vast majority of SoD's critics when the game came out were folks who did take issue with Mizhena first and foremost--not the folks who didn't even know who she was.
At any rate, the controversy has died down and you're not going to get put to the torch for not liking SoD.
if anything this forum is the only place where people can be civil about sod. i remember reading a youtube comment saying sod should be forgotten because it was trash.
you can't win. if you defend sod your a fan boy and your just part of an echo chamber
if you say it sucks you get what happened with Verticor.
Yeah, unfortunately there's extremists on both sides that makes trying to play a mediator next to impossible.
I've mentioned it elsewhere before, but in general I was quite pleased with the SoD experience. I confess I thought most of the companions fairly forgettable and a bit one-dimensional (although M'Khiin's writing is amazing, and I thought Corwin was interesting for breaking new ground as a "working class single mother", not the type you'd normally see going off on adventures. Also, that scene where Skie wakes you up is just pure hilarity "Are you awake?" "I am now..."), but Beamdog has great talent at "showing, not telling", such as the side-encounter where you witness the aftermath of a battle between a certain stranger and a battlesquad of Spellsingers. Little touches like the large crowds in Baldur's Gate or the Bridgefort drawbridge being lowered made me smile at how much we can push the Infinity Engine these days. I also thought the music was very well done (and it didn't surprise me to see that it was Sam Hulick's work. I THOUGHT the style sounded familiar!)
And of course, it was just plain old awesome to go on more adventures with the gang from BG1. I only wish Imoen could have joined you (yes, I'm aware there's a mod for that), and although I didn't get to see it personally due to choices I made during the plot, I was amused at the inclusion of a line that gives a nod to those of us who always wanted an Imoen romance.
I generally avoid the romances is Baldur's Gate because I find them cringeworthy but I really enjoyed the Corwin romance. It was very well written and I thought it added a lot to the scenario.
i've only done neera's and corwin's. they are both pretty good. especially neera's which i think is much better then the first half of hers in bg 2.
i just wish they were longer. yeah i know sod is not that long of a game but only having 5 love talks seems to short.
I do recall there were some very long pauses between the dialogues but I was told at the time that this was because they were triggered by the screen you were on rather than the time that had passed.
@Zaxares Can you clarify the nod? I've never seen it either.
Certainly!
If your choices in SoD were Neutral to Evil, the Dukes sentence you to death, but a thief comes to spring you in the night, who reveals that they were hired by Imoen to free you, and depending on your dialogue choices, he can remark about how he thinks the two of you are lovers. You can reply by saying that you're friends and (and that being more would be weird), just sorta act surprised (perhaps at the thought that maybe Imoen likes you as more than a friend), or that you don't really care for Imoen at all.
corwin is a nice representation of a " normal' person in a dnd game.
Yep. I just wish that her resolution at the end of SoD was nicer if you picked the Heroic path through the game.
When Corwin speaks to you in the jail, no matter your relationship with her, even if you romanced her, she believes you to be guilty and advises you to confess your guilt and allow yourself to be hanged so as to spare the city further turmoil. That... does not strike me as the behaviour of a Lawful Good person; a Lawful Neutral character maybe, but it seems SO out of character for her, especially if you romanced her!
What's worse is that if you played through SoD heroically and the Dukes decide to exile you in secret, that's the LAST thing that Corwin ever says to you. If you picked the Neutral/Evil path, there's one last encounter in the sewers where Corwin leads a squad of Flaming Fist to stop you after your escape is discovered, and depending on your dialogue choices, you can convince her to side with you against her fellow Flaming Fist. I wish the player had a chance to see this even if you took the Heroic path, because it otherwise leaves a very sour taste in the mouth about Corwin.
Corwin tells the PC to take the blame so the city can go back to peace regardless of whether she thinks the PC did the murder or not. This is evident if you read the journal entry after the encounter.
This is so not LG and totally destroyed the whole NPC for me. Corwin is unplayable for me if I ever finish SoD again. I truly regret the dev's choice to put this drama there for drama's sake. Also, as you said, if you romanced her and played heroic (get the good/evil ending and not the assassin path), this is the last thing you hear from her.
@Zaxares Thanks! As for the Corwin thing, there is a dialogue path where Corwin believes you to be innocent, but says she can't do anything for you. Its a lot sadder in my opinion, Your lovers at that point, but she feels helpless to save you.
@Verticor No one will burn you at the stake for not liking SoD, but I WILL look at you like a disappointed father
Hell, if you think that was bad, you should've seen some of the reactions, if you claimed that SoD would have been infinitely better, if it had been executed TotSC-style. As in modules in the style of Durlag's Tower, Werewolf Isle or something similar, and yet completely separated from the general storyline concluded with Sarevok bleeding his guts out on a temple floor. Stuff you could do or completely skip at your own leisure without tampering one bit with the story line.
That stance put a whole new meaning to "You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself".
@Verticor No one will burn you at the stake for not liking SoD, but I WILL look at you like a disappointed father
Hell, if you think that was bad, you should've seen some of the reactions, if you claimed that SoD would have been infinitely better, if it had been executed TotSC-style. As in modules in the style of Durlag's Tower, Werewolf Isle or something similar, and yet completely separated from the general storyline concluded with Sarevok bleeding his guts out on a temple floor. Stuff you could do or completely skip at your own leisure without tampering one bit with the story line.
That stance put a whole new meaning to "You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself".
The good thing about the Beamdog forums is that you can make that kind of argument here. I have argued that very idea myself: some people disagreed with me but no one threw their toys out of their pram. I have given parts SoD a right good slagging in my time ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/66080/imoen-massive-spoilers-massive-rant/p1 ) but no one ever suggested I didn't have a right to my opinion. I think you will find the moderation here is very even-handed: unless you are actually going out of your way to upset people no one is going to deny you a voice.
Seriously, if you want to make a list of everything you hated about SoD go right ahead (but since this particular thread is titled "Say something nice about beamdog or SOD" it might be polite to temper it with a bit of praise or start a different thread.)
@Zaxares Thanks! As for the Corwin thing, there is a dialogue path where Corwin believes you to be innocent, but says she can't do anything for you. Its a lot sadder in my opinion, Your lovers at that point, but she feels helpless to save you.
I thought there was something kind of tragic about the Corwin romance and I liked the way it played out even if it felt frustrating (I only tried one ending). I wish there was some kind of continuation in BG2. I felt wierdly concerned and responsible for the future of her daughter Rohma. It would be nice to find out she was doing okay.
@Permidion_Stark Yeah, I am super disappointed that the teased bringing of SoD npcs to BG2 never happened. I really connected with Corwin, Glint, and Mkhiin. While Glint is almost certainly fine, I really wanna know that Corwin and Rohma are doing okay. Not to mention that the last we ever see of Mkhiin is her running away in a panic as the only person who ever treated her well is being arrested for murder.
The good thing about the Beamdog forums is that you can make that kind of argument here. I have argued that very idea myself: some people disagreed with me but no one threw their toys out of their pram. I have given parts SoD a right good slagging in my time ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/66080/imoen-massive-spoilers-massive-rant/p1 ) but no one ever suggested I didn't have a right to my opinion. I think you will find the moderation here is very even-handed: unless you are actually going out of your way to upset people no one is going to deny you a voice.
Seriously, if you want to make a list of everything you hated about SoD go right ahead (but since this particular thread is titled "Say something nice about beamdog or SOD" it might be polite to temper it with a bit of praise or start a different thread.)
Hey! I did, in fact, praise it. I fully acknowledge that it might need a little work, but still.
i feel beamdog did intend to flesh these characters out more had they been allowed to make that bg 2 expansion pack. besides corwin who i feel was intended to be one of the canon sod companions as she has alot of dialogue compared to the rest of the new npcs. the rest feel under developed. especially volhgin and Mkhiin. Glint has alot of funny banter but his character is really basic. he never got a jan moment where we realized there was more to him behind the joking around.
Siege of Dragonspear shows us who the characters are -with things like M'Khiin complaining about the ghosts in the spider cave- while BG:EE and BG2:EE did more to tell us about who the characters are with backstories and personal quests. Personally I found that much more natural. People talk to their co-workers about the challenges they are facing in the present far more than they talk about their life stories.
IIRC, Corwin was indeed planned to show up in BG2 with a squad of Flaming Fist, and there would have been an option to convince Corwin of your innocence, and possibly even get her to join your party. I suspect this would have also opened the door to provide a more suitable resolution for the Skie-Soultaker storyline.
I'm surprised that you felt M'Khiin was an underdeveloped character though. Of all the companions, she has the perhaps most interjections and special quest-linked banter. Aside from Corwin, I felt that M'Khiin was the one I learned the most about as a person; where she comes from, why she left her clan, her sense of alienation among her own kind etc.
Comments
Corwin, Glint and M'Khiin are all great additions to an adventuring group, and I didn't feel forced to bring them along just to explore new content as I did with Neera and Rasaad. (I haven't tried Voghiln, so I can't comment.) Corwin is maybe a tiny bit too powerful, but only in her role of filling enemies with arrows. Glint is the ultimate utility character. M'Khiin is a little underpowered but not so much as to make her a waste of group xp like Rasaad is.
Ah, I think I've just met her. I thought it was very matter-of-fact, just mentioning that her parents raised her as a boy, until they found out that she was actually a woman. Interesting what gets people into fights these days.
It was a real shame that the release of SoD was hijacked by some pretty despicable trolls. Maybe I am being naive but I do feel that the world has moved on somewhat over the last couple of years and I like to think that if they tried it again today they would be banished back to their basements where they belong.
Indeed. I remember my first encounter with a couple of them in an online discussion, where I rated SoD roughly 2.5 out of 10. The exact wording of my comment escapes me, but it was along the lines of dreary writing, less than interesting potential party members etc.
Well, that naturally progressed into 4 people concluding that I was transphobic scum (that wording did however imprint on me). I naturally asked what the hell they were on about, which led to a four-pronged rant about how despicable people like me were for hating on someone called Mizhena, of whom I did not know jack at the time and had in fact not made any mention of.
I never managed to convince that quartet that I had no flipping idea who that computerized individual was right then. Naturally, I did after a couple of runs, but knowing that still hasn't changed my mind. I still think SoD is a total waste of time, even though that particular stance apparently is a big no-no in certain circles. Besides, I've yet to encounter any of the really die-hard fans online, who won't eventually end up posing the unyielding statement "SoD isn't great = I hate gender minorities", if only you bother to discuss that particular topic with them long enough without agreeing with them indiscriminately.
Which is why I've stopped doing that pretty much all together. The fecal matter always impacts the ventilator.
Many of the conventions of fanfiction have seeped into professional writing today. But in fairness Leo Tolstoy did a lot of the same stuff - most notably using himself as a Mary Sue character in all of his books. Siege of Dragonspear is at least better than stuff like the last few seasons of Dr. Who.
It isn't a standoff. Did you mean standpoint?
i've only done neera's and corwin's. they are both pretty good. especially neera's which i think is much better then the first half of hers in bg 2.
i just wish they were longer. yeah i know sod is not that long of a game but only having 5 love talks seems to short.
It sounds like you were mistaken for one of Mizhena's numerous transphobic enemies. I'm guessing it was hard to see your criticisms for what they were because the vast majority of SoD's critics when the game came out were folks who did take issue with Mizhena first and foremost--not the folks who didn't even know who she was.
At any rate, the controversy has died down and you're not going to get put to the torch for not liking SoD.
you can't win. if you defend sod your a fan boy and your just part of an echo chamber
if you say it sucks you get what happened with Verticor.
I've mentioned it elsewhere before, but in general I was quite pleased with the SoD experience. I confess I thought most of the companions fairly forgettable and a bit one-dimensional (although M'Khiin's writing is amazing, and I thought Corwin was interesting for breaking new ground as a "working class single mother", not the type you'd normally see going off on adventures. Also, that scene where Skie wakes you up is just pure hilarity "Are you awake?" "I am now..."), but Beamdog has great talent at "showing, not telling", such as the side-encounter where you witness the aftermath of a battle between a certain stranger and a battlesquad of Spellsingers. Little touches like the large crowds in Baldur's Gate or the Bridgefort drawbridge being lowered made me smile at how much we can push the Infinity Engine these days. I also thought the music was very well done (and it didn't surprise me to see that it was Sam Hulick's work. I THOUGHT the style sounded familiar!)
And of course, it was just plain old awesome to go on more adventures with the gang from BG1.
This is, like, the best threat I ever heard.
I do recall there were some very long pauses between the dialogues but I was told at the time that this was because they were triggered by the screen you were on rather than the time that had passed.
Certainly!
Yep. I just wish that her resolution at the end of SoD was nicer if you picked the Heroic path through the game.
What's worse is that if you played through SoD heroically and the Dukes decide to exile you in secret, that's the LAST thing that Corwin ever says to you. If you picked the Neutral/Evil path, there's one last encounter in the sewers where Corwin leads a squad of Flaming Fist to stop you after your escape is discovered, and depending on your dialogue choices, you can convince her to side with you against her fellow Flaming Fist. I wish the player had a chance to see this even if you took the Heroic path, because it otherwise leaves a very sour taste in the mouth about Corwin.
This is so not LG and totally destroyed the whole NPC for me. Corwin is unplayable for me if I ever finish SoD again. I truly regret the dev's choice to put this drama there for drama's sake. Also, as you said, if you romanced her and played heroic (get the good/evil ending and not the assassin path), this is the last thing you hear from her.
Hell, if you think that was bad, you should've seen some of the reactions, if you claimed that SoD would have been infinitely better, if it had been executed TotSC-style. As in modules in the style of Durlag's Tower, Werewolf Isle or something similar, and yet completely separated from the general storyline concluded with Sarevok bleeding his guts out on a temple floor. Stuff you could do or completely skip at your own leisure without tampering one bit with the story line.
That stance put a whole new meaning to "You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself".
The good thing about the Beamdog forums is that you can make that kind of argument here. I have argued that very idea myself: some people disagreed with me but no one threw their toys out of their pram. I have given parts SoD a right good slagging in my time ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/66080/imoen-massive-spoilers-massive-rant/p1 ) but no one ever suggested I didn't have a right to my opinion. I think you will find the moderation here is very even-handed: unless you are actually going out of your way to upset people no one is going to deny you a voice.
Seriously, if you want to make a list of everything you hated about SoD go right ahead (but since this particular thread is titled "Say something nice about beamdog or SOD" it might be polite to temper it with a bit of praise or start a different thread.)
I thought there was something kind of tragic about the Corwin romance and I liked the way it played out even if it felt frustrating (I only tried one ending). I wish there was some kind of continuation in BG2. I felt wierdly concerned and responsible for the future of her daughter Rohma. It would be nice to find out she was doing okay.
Hey! I did, in fact, praise it. I fully acknowledge that it might need a little work, but still.
I'm surprised that you felt M'Khiin was an underdeveloped character though. Of all the companions, she has the perhaps most interjections and special quest-linked banter. Aside from Corwin, I felt that M'Khiin was the one I learned the most about as a person; where she comes from, why she left her clan, her sense of alienation among her own kind etc.