Sexism in The Original Baldur's Gate?
Sleepwalk
Member Posts: 30
Before I begin, I recommend that everyone read this article about what the developers and writers of at Beamdog think of Baldur's Gate and where they think the game should go. http://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-back-baldur-s-gate-after-17-years-1768303595 It'd probably be helpful to read the reaction Baldur's Gate fans had in the comments section as well.
That being said, I'd like to specifically address what was said here by the writer Amber Scott:
I wonder if it's possible in Amber Scott's mind for a character to be sexually promiscuous and female without it being sexist. If I had to guess, the answer would be no, which is striking. Why is it bad for a woman to be sexual? Secondly, women who express sexuality or who are sexually promiscuous is something that is seen in the real world so shouldn't there be characters in video games based on these types of women? Thirdly, I wonder if Amber's beliefs here extend to the idea of a character that is male and a pervert? Or a male and sexually promiscuous?
I also wonder if Amber Scott has a problem with the idea of jokes being made at the expense of men in video games. More importantly, however, in an RPG that is supposed to be its own little world with different rules (e.g. magic and dragons exist) wouldn't it make sense for sexism or racism to exist in the way other evils exist in these little worlds? For instance, murder exists in Baldur's Gate. Should that be removed because it's morally wrong? My point is I believe the ideal aim for a RPG is to make it as realistic as possible (without getting rid of fun stuff like magic) and to give players the option of doing what they want. Isn't that the purpose of role-playing games? Isn't that how one creates an interesting and believable world? Look at World of Warcraft: it's all about racism through and through.
As for the details of Amber's claims, isn't it strange that she believes Jaheira is an example of a sexist character? My first impression of the character back when I was a teenager was that she is a strong and independent woman. I actually thought her husband may have been the sexist character! He seemed incredibly weak and whiny. Regardless, just because a character is whiny and weak and male doesn't necessarily mean that character is sexist against men. It just means that character is whiny and weak and male. The time where there might be an issue is if it is a general rule "All or most female characters are weak" or "All or most male characters are weak" then there might be something going on. However! What if the story or imagined world called for that? Would it be sexist then? I'd say no, not in the context of that story or world. There are flawed characters in every world or story. When they're female (or male) that isn't sexism. That's art imitating reality. Imagine a game or story where every single female character (or male) was perfect for the sake of, what, political correctness? Geez, that's sad and boring. I like my characters in videogames as complex as people in real life, thank you.
That being said, I'd like to specifically address what was said here by the writer Amber Scott:
If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that],” said writer Amber Scott. “In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, ‘No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.’ In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.”Please read the following without taking it as an concession to any of the details of Amber's claims. I'm just trying to address the logic of her claims.
I wonder if it's possible in Amber Scott's mind for a character to be sexually promiscuous and female without it being sexist. If I had to guess, the answer would be no, which is striking. Why is it bad for a woman to be sexual? Secondly, women who express sexuality or who are sexually promiscuous is something that is seen in the real world so shouldn't there be characters in video games based on these types of women? Thirdly, I wonder if Amber's beliefs here extend to the idea of a character that is male and a pervert? Or a male and sexually promiscuous?
I also wonder if Amber Scott has a problem with the idea of jokes being made at the expense of men in video games. More importantly, however, in an RPG that is supposed to be its own little world with different rules (e.g. magic and dragons exist) wouldn't it make sense for sexism or racism to exist in the way other evils exist in these little worlds? For instance, murder exists in Baldur's Gate. Should that be removed because it's morally wrong? My point is I believe the ideal aim for a RPG is to make it as realistic as possible (without getting rid of fun stuff like magic) and to give players the option of doing what they want. Isn't that the purpose of role-playing games? Isn't that how one creates an interesting and believable world? Look at World of Warcraft: it's all about racism through and through.
As for the details of Amber's claims, isn't it strange that she believes Jaheira is an example of a sexist character? My first impression of the character back when I was a teenager was that she is a strong and independent woman. I actually thought her husband may have been the sexist character! He seemed incredibly weak and whiny. Regardless, just because a character is whiny and weak and male doesn't necessarily mean that character is sexist against men. It just means that character is whiny and weak and male. The time where there might be an issue is if it is a general rule "All or most female characters are weak" or "All or most male characters are weak" then there might be something going on. However! What if the story or imagined world called for that? Would it be sexist then? I'd say no, not in the context of that story or world. There are flawed characters in every world or story. When they're female (or male) that isn't sexism. That's art imitating reality. Imagine a game or story where every single female character (or male) was perfect for the sake of, what, political correctness? Geez, that's sad and boring. I like my characters in videogames as complex as people in real life, thank you.
Post edited by Sleepwalk on
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Comments
this is some crazy talk. that can of worms should have never been opened.
I will say though that I see an inherent problem with looking for negative gender-specific qualities in characters, calling it sexist, and then trying to remove it. This is because sometimes women are nagging. Sometimes men are arrogant. Or sometimes the reverse is true. I see nothing wrong with the idea of there being characters in video games representing these types of people. Just imagine a world where video game developers and writers avoided nagging female characters or arrogant male characters simply because they're seen as politically incorrect.
Just for a few highlights of your post (I'm too tired of this debate to do much more right now)
Is an inhenrently sexual character necessarily bad?
I'd say no, but the problem is more with a character who would be nothing but sexual. A character that is so one dimensional doesn't seem very realist to me. With the old bg1 npcs having about twenty lines of dialogue, tops, you'd be hard pressed to make them more than one diemensional, though. Thus we have characters such as domineering wife, man-hating feminist, wimpy wuss, greedy dwarf, crazy barbarian and vengeful hunter. And sultry seductress.
But when the beamdog team went and expanded (some of) these characters in SOD, I think they were entirely right in trying to give these characters more depth, simply because no one is as one-dimensional as the old npcs were. How they developped these characters is ultimately their call : because there was nothing more to Safana than sultry seductress, she could be expanded in any possible way.
As for whether the Realms should have sexism and racism, I think the question is moot, for two reasons :
_As you said, it is its own little world, which can or cannot include whatever you want from the real world. That is, whatever Ed Greenwood and WotC want.
_Secondly, it does include that. Elves are basically crazy racist, toward drows for example. And drows are crazy sexist. The question you are asking is should the setting reflect that sexism/racism in some particular story (like Safana's) and that is, ultimately, the writer's call.
Meanwhile, in the article you quoted and that is well known on this forum, right after the paragraph in the OP goes another one:
“I got to write a little tender, romance-y side quest for Khalid and Jaheira where you could learn a little bit about how their marriage works and how they really feel about each other.”
This small phrase completely illustrates the statement in the previous paragraph, but this phrase is often omitted when referring to this article.
When saying "Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy" Amber referred to the following lines by Jaheira in BG1:
(on the Khalid's Death): "Blast it Khalid! You die! I swear you'll never hear the end of it!"
JAHEIRA: Khalid, my dear, 'twould take a sailor to untie that tongue.
KHALID: Please J-Jaheira, you needn't be so...s-so...
JAHEIRA: Insufferable?
KHALID: Yes, that's definitely it!
Source:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/11692/list-of-npc-interactions-banters
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/12045/npc-interaction-and-banter-guide-ok-finished
As you can see, these lines illustrate relations between Jaheira and Khalid in a comedy way, with Jaheira shown as an "insufferable" wife.
So in order to make their relations more deep, the developers created a romance quest for Khalid and Jaheira, so that everyone could see much more about their feeling to each other.
As for Safana, I illustrated her character in BG1 and SoD in a detailed post here - https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/760231/#Comment_760231. The developers didn't change her character, they expanded her several lines in BG1 to a fully written character.
Noone in Beamdog ever said that "it is bad for a woman to be sexual". In fact, new SoD lines for Safana are very sexual, as are the new lines for Viconia.
But when the facts are twisted (and the often are) in regards to that Kotaku interview, it creates a situation of negativity, completely unneeded in the first place.
But all that aside, there's definitely sexism in Baldur's Gate. Take, for example, the fact that every single female party member in BG2 has to be rescued. A lot of the men do too, of course, but not every single one. Or the fact that the entire cast of plot enemies in BG1 includes a whopping three women, all of whom are consorts to male villains. That seems like a way bigger deal to me than the fact that some characters with only a few lines are caricatures.
I really don't get this attitude, claiming that sexism and racism is a thing of the past.
- Marrital rape was legal in Germany still 1997
- Female voting became universal in all cantons only in 1991
- 13% of US citiziens still disapprove of interracial marriage. In 2000 it was about 33%
Do you really think all the people holding these opinions just went away or died in that short a time? I have seen active racism and sexism in public and at work, both in subtle way and in an obvious "in your face" way.@OP:
Obviously it is possible to have promiscious and sensual women, without it being sexist. Hell, Safana still has those traits in SoD. It becomes a problem, when this is basically all that defines the character.
And the "sexism might exist as a bad thing in the realms" things also misses the point. That could justify a female character being treated badly by other characters, but not the game depicting a character in a sexist way.
I don't have an issue with Amber Scott expanding upon the romance between Khalid and Jaheira... but I do have an issue with her thinking Baldur's Gate possessed sexism and needed to be corrected. Moreover, it's pretty obvious to me that Amber Scott thinks Jaheira's nagging is a sexist stereotype.
They addressed it in SoD and expanded these characters, so that Safana had something more than being just a sex object, and Jaheira showing her love towards Khalid.
So Amber didn't think "Baldur's Gate possessed sexism and needed to be corrected" to the degree many people who refer to that article say.
Actually, let's examine that a bit more closely. In BG1, I can think of three major instances of overtly sexual female NPCs (Safana, Shoal, Desreta), and two major instances of overtly sexual male NPCs (Coran, Eldoth). Of those, all of the female characters direct their flirtations towards Charname, regardless of Charname's gender, and neither of the male characters do so. Now, I certainly don't mind the idea that a woman could be attracted to both men and women. But when all the sexual women are attracted to the player character, regardless of gender, and none of the sexual men are, you have to think about why that is. Hint: It's because the designers assumed that only straight guys were playing their game. And that, right there, is where the sexism is in Baldur's Gate.
First of all I wasn't saying anything remotely similar to "racism and sexism are belong to past today". I was saying about very destructive mindset many people have. It's reasonable to deal with racism and sexism where it exist, but not seeking it where it doesn't.
About your three points:
- It's 2016, not 1997. Almost 20 years of difference - the issue is solved by the law. Of course, there will still be rapist, but currently rape is punishable crime. In Germany too, regardless of circumstances.
- Again, it's 2016 now. 25 years have passed since then. Not an issue anymore.
- Statistics are all good, but I would be more interested in the methodology of said statistic, in interpretation of said statistic by group that conducted this research and in the reasons why people answered like they did. It would be also nice from you to state when the 13% held place. It is important for interpretation.
Now, racism, sexism and prejudices will always exist. The thing is, in the western societies the problem does not lies withing society as a whole, but in individuals. In those people you mentioned still exist and live today.
There are places where women are treated like a dirt (any place where sharia is applied) or where they are considered inferior to men (in China, for example), yet people are more focused on sexism in videogames (often having very shallow basis on it) than facing real issues. It should be pretty clear why I think creating another topic for non-existed issue is pointless. Especially since it has been discussed over and over again.
Now, the PC gaming audience is more diverse because gaming in general has become more mainstream; however, if I had to guess, the audience is probably still predominately male and straight.
Safana isn't just the woman that flirts with all the male NPCs. She is fleshed out more than what the orginial game provided.
So let's not get angry at reality. There's nothing wrong with the majority of Baldur's Gate players being straight men and it makes perfect sense to cater to them more than smaller groups who play Baldur's Gate. That's not to say there shouldn't be something for everyone, but to pretend all groups are of equal size is ridiculous and not sensible from a business perspective.
You think it is ok to ridicule, exclude and isolate minorities because they are in the minority of players?
It is not as if developers are not focusing their attention on straight males. They are doing that while still including others while making game design decisions. It really isn't affecting a typical gamers experience with the product.
All I have to do is simply state "I'm gay", and certain people will start yelling "Gaaaa, too much information, stop shoving it down my throat!"
Which is actually a hilarious unintended double entendre of an expression when you think about it.
A female character being sexualized isn't inherently sexist. A character having -only- that character trait is. The problem was solved by leaving that trait intact, but adding other traits as well.
I was merely saying straight men were the main audience of Baldur’s Gate back in 1998 and I believe they still are. Consequently, it makes little sense to, for instance, build the game as though 25% of the audience are gay, 25% of the audience are straight, 25% of the audience are transgender, 25% of the audience are bi; and 100% of the audience is extremely left-wing. It just doesn’t make sense any way you slice it. From a gameplay perspective nor from a business perspective. It only makes sense if the goal is to push an agenda... and Amber has admitted that she has an agenda. I would apply the same logic if I were discussing a game that attracted mostly gay men.
And I’m really suppressing myself here because there is more to it than even this. Just Google Amber Scott and SJW to see what I mean. She clearly has a political agenda.