I actually prefer the mage, dwarf, and (can't believe I'm saying this), elf stories because it doesn't toss everything on the same narrative. My biggest problem with bg1 is quite literally every freaking thing was about you. If we take the last part of @Gallenger statement and attach it to bg 1, more than half of your companions possess no real reason to join you, nor have any real reason to put their lives on the line chasing after sarevok. In DAO, they all have a reason to fight with the GW, the blight is a continent level threatening force which kills indiscriminately. While Sarevok... was meticulous in his details, which meant he wouldn't have been a danger to literally half of the companions you could pick from.
Even characters like Nalia or Dynaheir who PC places their life on the line to save, what I never understood is this; ok I did this x/y/z thing to help or save you. This placed my life on the line (ignoring that it is perfectly ok for others to give me gold and items for dong the exact same thing). In exchange, they decided to help you, maybe out of a code of honor or just to pay back the debt they now owe.
Now this is the thing after you drag them through the same level if not (more than likely) a much more dangerous situation, how is the debt or the code of honor not settled? I mean with Gynaheir, you have to fight gnolls to save her. How is her debt not clear after dragging her through either of the mines, the second I might add nearly drowns us all alive? How is it not cleared after she helps me fight a mage ogre or two? How am I not indebted to my entire team for dragging them through Durlag's Tower?
With some characters like Viconia, I get it, they are there with you for protection. Which makes no freaking sense, seeing how I'm pretty sure the life of an adventurer in any fantasy story is far from shrouded in mystery and the greater the exploit the more of a target the group should actually become, regardless of being good or evil, which in fact is kind of the opposite of what viconia needs.
I've gotten way off point, here...
The point I feel if they joined every origin story to Logan, it would've felt forced, ESPECIALLY with how mages are controlled and not allowed in real world politics, not allowed to own land, not even allowed to even love (seriously this was the whole reason you broke into still the friend's phylactery so he could run away with the priestess.) Making Logan a personal mission for Alister alone (unless you are a human noble of course), was the best way to handle that honestly. Even with that said, the betrayal is a strong connection to logan since... you know... you were supposed to die there as well. He even sent assassins after you once he realized you survived. They quite literally hammer "go after logan" into you like every other action.
I actually prefer the mage, dwarf, and (can't believe I'm saying this), elf stories because it doesn't toss everything on the same narrative. My biggest problem with bg1 is quite literally every freaking thing was about you. If we take the last part of @Gallenger statement and attach it to bg 1, more than half of your companions possess no real reason to join you, nor have any real reason to put their lives on the line chasing after sarevok. In DAO, they all have a reason to fight with the GW, the blight is a continent level threatening force which kills indiscriminately. While Sarevok... was meticulous in his details, which meant he wouldn't have been a danger to literally half of the companions you could pick from.
Well just looking at BG NPC:
Ajantis, Xan, Monty & Xzar, Jaheria & Khalid were all sent their respective organizations to look into the iron crisis plaguing the sword coast. Their quest aligned with yours.
Kagain's business of operating a caravan escort service also hinges on the bandit raids stopping as soon as possible. (or at least, the most profitable type)
Imoen is the only family you have left, and there really wasn't any where else for her to go since the gatekeeper won't let either of you in again.
Dynheir & Minsc are in the region investigating Alaundo's prophecy. Tagging along with someone from Candlekeep maybe a good start for them.
Edwin pledges his service to you for a year for helping him with his witch problem. Being lawful, he will (and does) stick to that contract.
Kivan, Branwen, and Yeslick are all after minor villains in the game due to past transgressions. Kivan doesn't get his revenge to till the last battle. Yeslick, not till Candlekeep. Branwen gets hers early, but being a cleric of Tempus (God of Battles), it is fitting for her to stick with you as you sew chaos along the coast.
Faldorn is a tricky one, as she should really never leave cloakwood. Perhaps she realizes the real villians were not in the mine, but in the comfort of their city towers.
Garrick, intrigued by how you handled Silke, decides to follow you around. You are his muse for him to create his next epic ballad.
Viconia really isn't safe on her own, and she realizes this. Traveling with a party that not only saved her, but accepted her is her own course of action.
Eldoth & Skie are using you in much the same way. It is easier to hide (and exploit others) when you are travelling with well armed companions.
Safana and Coran are about adventure. Safana doesn't care where you take her, as long as it is exciting. Coran on the hand, asks you to join him on an adventure and then when you bring him into the city, you see his past life catching up with him, which brings you on a different adventure.
Quayle and Tiax I think are just glad they have someone to follow around and spout their wisdom to.
Alora and Shar-teel are the only two that don't seem to fit IMO. Shar-teel at least wagers her sword arm in a dual (much like Edwin) but I am not seeing why Alora would follow you. Everyone else has their own motive.
@deltago I'd just like to add that Alora joins you late in the story and it's a quite short time for her to think about wether she should stay in the party .
Another thing that's great about BG1's villains is that they have ambitions and are actually accomplishing things. So many other games fall into the trap of the villains sitting in place while you're slowly fighting your way to them. In BG you won't feel like you're the only active player on the Sword Coast.
Another thing that's great about BG1's villains is that they have ambitions and are actually accomplishing things. So many other games fall into the trap of the villains sitting in place while you're slowly fighting your way to them. In BG you won't feel like you're the only active player on the Sword Coast.
But I do kinda feel like the only person getting things done in the Sword Coast. Where are the rest of the adventuring parties stopping a mad cleric? Taking down a guard cursed by a sword? Stopping a kobald manipulator in a cave? What the heck is Elminster doing besides being cryptic half-the-time? He's a freakin' epic level wizard! He could stop almost all these threats by farting in their general direction.
Why do I need to escort Monty and Xzar from their obviously wrong location down to Nashkel? Surely if they were told to go that way, the were given proper directions and orders to do so as fast as possible. If the Iron Crisis is such a crisis, why was Khalid and Jaheira just lounging about in the Friendly Arm instead of heading down to the source? Surely that would be considered more important than waiting on someone who may or may not ever head that way? And then you draft him into your own little problems?
The only way things seem to get down on the Sword Coast is that you take your rag-tag band of whomever and make them do what they say they'd do. They're too lazy too other wise.
(I'm well aware this is a programming limitation for back in the day, but still, nothing gets done until you decide it should be done, not others.)
I'm guessing the reason why you don't see other adventurers taking down evil clerics and such is because:
1. You won't hear about problems that have already been solved.
2. The chance of running into a fight scene on a tiny section of the map, just in time to see a five-minute battle in progress, is rather low.
And maybe those stray magic items and gold you find just lying around are actually the leftovers from adventurers clashing with monsters. Say, a gang of kobolds ambushes a mage with a wand and kills him, but doesn't know how to use the wand, so they just throw it away. Hence the random wand you find sitting in the middle of nowhere.
But I do kinda feel like the only person getting things done in the Sword Coast. Where are the rest of the adventuring parties stopping a mad cleric? Taking down a guard cursed by a sword? Stopping a kobald manipulator in a cave? What the heck is Elminster doing besides being cryptic half-the-time? He's a freakin' epic level wizard! He could stop almost all these threats by farting in their general direction.
To be fair, being a large tract of wilderness full of adventures for the specific party you happen to be running is what the Sword Coast setting is for. It's an intentionally vaguely defined stretch of countryside that can have basically whatever the DM wants in it for the convenience and enjoyment of the group he's running.
I would say that good villains are not the only factor separating BG from other RPGs. This PnP feel when I roll a character and see the dice in action into my combat log is unprecedented.
As for DAO (and DAI), I've loved those games for many things, but maybe most of all for companions. Yes, BG gives us wonderful companions as well, with the likes of Minsc, Edwin and Viconia staying in our hearts and minds for many years. But the quality, with which companions are written in DAO (and DAI), is the best for me.
When I said you're not the only player accomplishing things, I was specifically referring to the villains, e.g. the Iron Throne and Sarevok, and their vast network of underlings. I didn't mean other entities whose goals might align with yours. In essence, there are other adventurers and mercenaries around, it's just that most of them are more concerned with the bounty on your head than with wandering the Sword Coasts doing good deeds for anyone in need. And to be honest, I'm glad other adventuring groups don't go around completing quests that could be done by me, because from a game design perspective I don't see how it could be done in a way that wouldn't distract and frustrate me to no end.
Jaheira and Khalid have a really good reason to stand around in the main room of the Friendly Arm Inn: they were asked by their old companion and friend Gorion to meet him there. They subsequently drag you along on their quest because it was his will for them to look over you.
As for Xzar and Montaron, give them a break. One of them is quite literally insane and the other can only move at half speed.
I actually prefer the mage, dwarf, and (can't believe I'm saying this), elf stories because it doesn't toss everything on the same narrative. My biggest problem with bg1 is quite literally every freaking thing was about you. If we take the last part of @Gallenger statement and attach it to bg 1, more than half of your companions possess no real reason to join you, nor have any real reason to put their lives on the line chasing after sarevok. In DAO, they all have a reason to fight with the GW, the blight is a continent level threatening force which kills indiscriminately. While Sarevok... was meticulous in his details, which meant he wouldn't have been a danger to literally half of the companions you could pick from.
Well just looking at BG NPC:
Ajantis, Xan, Monty & Xzar, Jaheria & Khalid were all sent their respective organizations to look into the iron crisis plaguing the sword coast. Their quest aligned with yours.
Kagain's business of operating a caravan escort service also hinges on the bandit raids stopping as soon as possible. (or at least, the most profitable type)
Imoen is the only family you have left, and there really wasn't any where else for her to go since the gatekeeper won't let either of you in again.
Dynheir & Minsc are in the region investigating Alaundo's prophecy. Tagging along with someone from Candlekeep maybe a good start for them.
Edwin pledges his service to you for a year for helping him with his witch problem. Being lawful, he will (and does) stick to that contract.
Kivan, Branwen, and Yeslick are all after minor villains in the game due to past transgressions. Kivan doesn't get his revenge to till the last battle. Yeslick, not till Candlekeep. Branwen gets hers early, but being a cleric of Tempus (God of Battles), it is fitting for her to stick with you as you sew chaos along the coast.
Faldorn is a tricky one, as she should really never leave cloakwood. Perhaps she realizes the real villians were not in the mine, but in the comfort of their city towers.
Garrick, intrigued by how you handled Silke, decides to follow you around. You are his muse for him to create his next epic ballad.
Viconia really isn't safe on her own, and she realizes this. Traveling with a party that not only saved her, but accepted her is her own course of action.
Eldoth & Skie are using you in much the same way. It is easier to hide (and exploit others) when you are travelling with well armed companions.
Safana and Coran are about adventure. Safana doesn't care where you take her, as long as it is exciting. Coran on the hand, asks you to join him on an adventure and then when you bring him into the city, you see his past life catching up with him, which brings you on a different adventure.
Quayle and Tiax I think are just glad they have someone to follow around and spout their wisdom to.
Alora and Shar-teel are the only two that don't seem to fit IMO. Shar-teel at least wagers her sword arm in a dual (much like Edwin) but I am not seeing why Alora would follow you. Everyone else has their own motive.
Ajantis, Xan, Monty & Xzar, Jaheria & Khalid can do that with or without you, and speaking technically they are all more seasoned than charname, so I a wet noodle could do what he did in the first mine, I don' see why they couldn't. Jaheria and Khalid have a more valid reason sine Gorion actually asked the to look after charname, so they didn't even need to be brought up
Kagain, again I don't see why he has to stay with you all the way until fighting sorevok, we stop the bandit raids long before that confrontation and others usually just toss gold or items at charname for fighting much worse. So, kagain going beyond the bandit raid with charname to fight charnames big brother is eh.
Imeon, did you really mention Imeon? REALLY? Out of all the companions, you really felt the need to give a reason why his sister basically needed to be there? I think that I actually feel insulted now...
Dynheir & Minsc, AGAIN, didn't need Charname to do this unless they actually knew that charname was somehow directly connected or the iron shortage was actually directly connected to the prophecy or felt that this was something that would reach their homeland eventually. This would actually take time and energy AWAY from their actual quest!
Edwin just like Imeon, didn't even need to be mentioned.
Kevin, doesn't know that the person he wants revenge on will appear on the same path as charname; you are using the omnipresent eye of the player to actually create that connection. Unless you provide me source information that states Kivan knows that his quest runs parallel to the charname. Maybe there is text selection where charname states toKivan before he joined that he plans on destroying the bandits, don't remember off of the top of my head. I do remember that he is just a random guy standing there, though.
Faldorn is not a tricky one; she is even more poorly written one.
Garrick is eh.
Viconia, I've already addressed Viconia... and even already explained how she is not safe with or with the party, even less safe with charname's party when you take into account how any times he tosses everyone in life or death situations, how many times he has been trapped in dangerous places, and the fact his party is building fame.
Eldoth & Skie, incorrect; it is actually easier to hide when you hide in plain sight or under people noses, not when one is traveling by a group of adventures who is gaining fame through exploits, especially one who is dealing with the BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN THE LAND AND OVER THROWS A COUP! They could've use Charname to travel to a smaller more isolated town and lived there together. Staying with a group literally, has not real logical gain beyond wanting to constantly travel.
Safana and Coran are two more that didn't need to really be mentioned.
Quayle and Tiax I've never used these two so I have no comment.
Shar-teel is the one who makes more sense than everyone yu actually mentioned! (not counting the ones who didn't need to be mentioned). She has something to prove to herself and to EVERYONE. Which is why she has this level of bravado about her, she was moe than likely in the woods for days and eventually ran out of food, water, and gold. So she saw charname and saw a chance to make some by issuing a challenge and offering up the only thing she felt she had left to offer.
Brandwin didn't even need to be mentioned.
Alora and Yeslik i actually can't remember that well so... yea. Half of your reasoning actually don't hold that well and in fact have reasons why they SHOULDN'T OR DIDN'T NEED to join charname.
@DragonKing , in case you've tried the BG NPC project then you might remember that they have actually tried to solve your questioning by adding banters/dialogues that explain the npc's reasons for joining and staying with the party. Kagain, for instance, is given a dialogue at the end of Chapter 3 (bandit camp) where he questions you wether he should stay or leave now that the bandits have been dealt with.
I went through everyone to be thorough. Upon some of the points you raised:
Kivan
First conversation: "What foolishness takes city dwellers this far from civilization?" "We are adventures on the look out for evil to smite." "...similar quest. I have been hunting the bandits in the region for the past few months." "We'll help you against the bandits, but only if you tell us why you've spent months hunting them" "Their leader, an ogre named Tazok, took the life of someone very dear to me."
So Kivan is actually recruiting you to hunt the bandits with him. It should also be known, that Kivan is on a timer. If you don't get to the bandit section in time, he'll leave to do his own thing.
Eldoth
They aren't on the run per say. They want to get ransom for holding Skie captive. You can't do that if you are in some back water village. They also want to show a sign of strength when walking into the guarded area where they go collect the money. Hard to do, without the muscle (you).
Skie will run away if Eldoth isn't in the party with you. Eldoth will also leave the party if you do not go and recruit Skie. So once again, he has his own motives.
By the time you recruit them, the game centers around the city of Baldur's Gate (with only one stop back at Candlekeep). You aren't (or shouldn't be) travelling as much.
Monty & Xzar It is safer to travel in numbers. Besides, you and imoen make nice little pack mules.
Xan Was captured while attempting to look into the iron crisis. He was doomed if he attempted to do it alone. (and a good indication that other parties have been active before you left Candlekeep).
Dynha & Minsc Once again, they could attempt to do their quest without you, but look how that ended up. They were separated, lost and afraid. Having a local (even a wet noodle such as yourself) around may be in their best interest.
Alaundo's prophecy "chaos will be sewn across the land" part may have to do with the brewing war between Amn and the Sword Coast. Looking into the causes of this war (the iron shortage) might lead them in the right direction (which it does as, SPOILER, both you and saravok are children of bhaal).
Ajantis
Ajantis (where he is located) seems to be heading to the FAI to recruit help with his mission. As stated before, safety in numbers.
Jah & Khalid
Actually disappear if you do the Nashkel mines before meeting them. They don't stick around. They are also not there to look into the iron shortage, they are there to meet you. They just hear about the iron shortage while waiting for you, and being meddling harpers, want to investigate.
Kagain
Is all about greed. Look how much wealth you have accumulated while taking down the bandits. Sticking with you is profitable, and he will do so as long as it remains that way.
@DragonKing , in case you've tried the BG NPC project then you might remember that they have actually tried to solve your questioning by adding banters/dialogues that explain the npc's reasons for joining and staying with the party. Kagain, for instance, is given a dialogue at the end of Chapter 3 (bandit camp) where he questions you wether he should stay or leave now that the bandits have been dealt with.
@DJKajuru I have tried it, but MODs are fan made, which means they aren't canon. Anything that happens in a mod, no matter how lore accurste that isn't directly from the source material, is still fan made. So even though bhaal had many children; if if all the dead bhallspawn was able to pull at their lost energy to come back as sone super bhaal spawn to try and kill Charname, is still fan made despite all of the bhaalspawn are part of the canon and the dead coming back to life is still part of the canon and charname is part pf the canon.
I went through everyone to be thorough. Upon some of the points you raised:
Kivan
First conversation: "What foolishness takes city dwellers this far from civilization?" "We are adventures on the look out for evil to smite." "...similar quest. I have been hunting the bandits in the region for the past few months." "We'll help you against the bandits, but only if you tell us why you've spent months hunting them" "Their leader, an ogre named Tazok, took the life of someone very dear to me."
So Kivan is actually recruiting you to hunt the bandits with him. It should also be known, that Kivan is on a timer. If you don't get to the bandit section in time, he'll leave to do his own thing.
Eldoth
They aren't on the run per say. They want to get ransom for holding Skie captive. You can't do that if you are in some back water village. They also want to show a sign of strength when walking into the guarded area where they go collect the money. Hard to do, without the muscle (you).
Skie will run away if Eldoth isn't in the party with you. Eldoth will also leave the party if you do not go and recruit Skie. So once again, he has his own motives.
By the time you recruit them, the game centers around the city of Baldur's Gate (with only one stop back at Candlekeep). You aren't (or shouldn't be) travelling as much.
Monty & Xzar It is safer to travel in numbers. Besides, you and imoen make nice little pack mules.
Xan Was captured while attempting to look into the iron crisis. He was doomed if he attempted to do it alone. (and a good indication that other parties have been active before you left Candlekeep).
Dynha & Minsc Once again, they could attempt to do their quest without you, but look how that ended up. They were separated, lost and afraid. Having a local (even a wet noodle such as yourself) around may be in their best interest.
Alaundo's prophecy "chaos will be sewn across the land" part may have to do with the brewing war between Amn and the Sword Coast. Looking into the causes of this war (the iron shortage) might lead them in the right direction (which it does as, SPOILER, both you and saravok are children of bhaal).
Ajantis
Ajantis (where he is located) seems to be heading to the FAI to recruit help with his mission. As stated before, safety in numbers.
Jah & Khalid
Actually disappear if you do the Nashkel mines before meeting them. They don't stick around. They are also not there to look into the iron shortage, they are there to meet you. They just hear about the iron shortage while waiting for you, and being meddling harpers, want to investigate.
Kagain
Is all about greed. Look how much wealth you have accumulated while taking down the bandits. Sticking with you is profitable, and he will do so as long as it remains that way.
@deltago Kivan I am perfectly aware of that, but you kill Tazok long before you learn of your bhaalspawn brother, and afterwards he has no obligations to continue to fight your problem. Again, like you side; he is recruiting you to do x, like EVERY OTHER QUEST of that nature.
Eldoth Yes you can, have ransom notes delivered via messenger would actually be a lot smarter, and a lot safer than hanging around with a group of adventures, and based on what you just said. Nothing they have charname do comes close to the level of danger they go through if they travel back to candle's keep with him. Literally the equivalent exchange there isn't even fair. Also the word you're looking for is extortion, because that is literally what their plan was, but just to make sure I'm not overlooking anything about their companion quest; I googled it.
The worst charname deals with is 3 measly guards, compared to... Doppelgangers, Ghast, phase spiders, greater doppelganger and so on that Eldoth and Ski would have to deal with following Charname instead of simply paying him some could for doing something so simple, hell something that he could lie through if he has high enough reaction. Now granted, they won't know that they have to fight those types of things if they stick with him, but they do know he is an adventure or a similar type of character due to the very location that you actually find Eldoth which is the third cloakwoods.
Monty & Xzar Yes... up until you find out what is going on in the Nashkel mines, which again was their job. The have no obligations beyond that! Their job was to investigate, not interfere... and you figure out that it was being poisoned very early into the game. You can argue that they stick around because they want to learn by "who", but the"who" isn't implied and thus is just player speculations on why they remain.
Xan I completely forgot Xan was even a thing, I have no comment what so ever about Xan.
Ajantis He is actually a lawful paladin there trying to prove his worth and end the bandit operation. (yep, I just googled him to remember him.) He is just as simple as shar-teel, he is just trying to be mister do good and if you're playing a lawful character than I understand perfectly well why he sticks around. The task placed before him with the group will definitely "prove his worth",
Dynheir & Minsc Again, they staying makes no freaking sense, The only reason they are there is part of Minsc's Dajemma! They literally have no stake in the iron shortage, no stake in the bandit raid, and nothing to gain from sticking with the group that in fact makes Misc Dajemma even harder than it needs to be seeing how Charname's group is jumping head first into the exact type of trouble that could get Dynheir killed and cause him to fail. Safety in numbers only works when the numbers themselves are actually attempting to be safe. I mean, look how well it turned out when they were on their own you say, isn't like anything bad happened to them while they were traveling with charn... oh wait!
Ding, ding, ding, that was a low blow! But seriously, they shouldn't have even stuck around seeing how it actually endangered the dajemma. There was no self-discovery for Minsc staying with Charname, even after Dynheir died and he realized he couldn't return him. He tried to cling to the past by asking Mrs what shut up about my wings to become his witch instead of using the experience and pain to try to grow. That is a different discussion all together.
Jah & Khalid What are you even talking about here? I even said, "Jaheria and Khalid have a more valid reason sine Gorion actually asked them to look after charname," I made no claim that they were there for the mines or any other reason. In fact, I even said they didn't need to be mention because its obvious why they would stick around with Charname to the end. The only connection I made between those two and the mines is that they are more seasoned the charname who is still a wet noodle when we do the mines; this means they technically could do it on their own without charname's help do to their experience and technically should be a lot higher in level than they are when you even recruit them.
Kagain If you're evil, its a lot more profitable honestly, because you're willing to do more things that actually gets you more money whether or not it gains you praise. Like the ahnks, your told not to kill more than a specific amount but you aren't penalized for farming the crap out of them. Yet, a lawful good character wouldn't farm more that the specific amount, unless the player doesn't give 2 ish about the role playing aspect at that moment.
@DragonKing Actually, you do not kill Tazok until literally the last fight of the game.
*EDIT* If you really want to insist on canon, as far as WotC are concerned, the games are non-canon. There are a lovely set of novels (it actually hurt to type that) that lay it out for you.
@DragonKing Actually, you do not kill Tazok until literally the last fight of the game.
*EDIT* If you really want to insist on canon, as far as WotC are concerned, the games are non-canon. There are a lovely set of novels (it actually hurt to type that) that lay it out for you.
I continue to say that head-canon is the best canon.
When you have NPCs like Baldur's Gate does there's an implication that more is being said and going on than the player actually sees. Although, there are some things you can find out for yourself, the characters are kept to a minimum (hence why so many are stereotypes - since stereotypes get across their meaning without too much explanation).
If you cast charm person on Dyanheir before freeing her, she explains that they've come from Rashemen to investigate the prophecies of Alaundo and Minsc is basically her bodyguard during this investigation - your PC not only rescues Dynheir, but obviously would know quite a lot about the prophecies of Alaundo being from Candlekeep. If they were to be found later in the game it may even be patently obvious to the PC that he/she is involved directly in the prophecies which would make you *very* good to hang around for Dynheir and by extension Minsc. Minsc's right of passage is only to guard his witch while she does important stuff (which just so happens to be investigating a prophecy which the PC is involved in directly).
That's basically why the cannon party is Minsc + Dynheir, Imoen, Khalid and Jaheira - because they all have the *most* motivation to stay with the PC regardless of circumstance.
The justifications for the rest of the cast are indeed less well fleshed out, but that's just the nature of the game. When you have NPCs in your RPG you can either take the "less is more" approach where they say very little and the player basically writes a significant portion of the story in their head or where they say a *lot*. Neither approach is necessarily better than the other. It's also fairly clear in BG that *some* of the NPCs are meant to have weaker motivations for staying with the player because the designers expected you to pick up and drop at least some NPCs at various points throughout the game and, I assume, they didn't want to discourage this behavior by making every NPC have super important reasons for staying with you.
For a game like BG, where the gameplay mostly focuses on exploring the Sword Coast and unraveling the plot (typically through exploration), a lot of character stories *could* detract from that experience, or at the very least would've absorbed resources. Whereas a game like Mass Effect 2 is basically *all* about the characters (NPCs) and character interaction and development, so character driven narratives form a significant portion of the gameplay, and are symbiotic with the plot. Torment is another example of how fleshed-out NPC interactions with the PC go hand-in-hand with the gameplay. Since the actual gameplay of Torment is learning (reading) about the setting and your character's place in it. BG exists outside of that realm since the character development of the PC is not really the focus of the plot or gameplay.
@DragonKing Actually, you do not kill Tazok until literally the last fight of the game.
*EDIT* If you really want to insist on canon, as far as WotC are concerned, the games are non-canon. There are a lovely set of novels (it actually hurt to type that) that lay it out for you.
@thedamages Yes I'm pretty sure 90% of the forum is and has been aware of this for a while now! But, I'm also sure when we talk bg on these forums, we are talking about THE GAMES and not the novel everyone hates; so even if I didn't already know that the games weren't canon because of the novel. It is still quite a mute point since we are talking about the game.
Also which one is Tazok again, I was thinking he was the named one you actually killed in the bandit camp when you attacked it.
Digressing back to the original plot, one of the things I loved best about Baldur's Gate 1 is that at first glance it's NOT a world threatening apocalypse. It makes perfect sense that the PC is involved instead of Elminster and Drizzle Tits. The scale is small and personal. I've seen enough attempts to shoehorn level one PCs into the heart of existence from Bioware, the scale of BG 1 I love
@DragonKing Actually, you do not kill Tazok until literally the last fight of the game.
*EDIT* If you really want to insist on canon, as far as WotC are concerned, the games are non-canon. There are a lovely set of novels (it actually hurt to type that) that lay it out for you.
Thedamages Yes I'm pretty sure 90% of the forum is and has been aware of this for a while now! But, I'm also sure when we talk bg on these forums, we are talking about THE GAMES and not the novel everyone hates; so even if I didn't already know that the games weren't canon because of the novel. It is still quite a mute point since we are talking about the game.
Also which one is Tazok again, I was thinking he was the named one you actually killed in the bandit camp when you attacked it.
Tazok isnt in the camp if you full assault it.
He is in the camp if you get one of the bandits to bring you to it, where he does fight you, but runs to cloakwood before you can finish him off.
He is one of the goons in the final battle though.
BG's plot may not be world ending, but it sure isn't just small and personal either. The plot concerns the entirety of your little corner of the world. Sarevok is purposefully pursuing war between BG and the much bigger and more powerful Amn and isn't intending to even try to win, just to make sure that as many people as possible suffer and die in what is essentially one humungous sacrifice to Bhaal. Sarevok isn't after some noble position or worldly power, he isn't some petty dictator or warlord who'll be content oppressing and ruling over BG. He is intending to cover the entirety of the Sword Coast in blood - with the massmurder of thousands and thousands being the actual goal - so yeah, it may not be apocalyptic scale, but we're talking some damn big stakes here.
I recently bought DA:Origins when it was on sale at GOG and have been playing it for the very first time. I've apparently completed 26% of the game (or so it tells me), and I've really enjoyed a number of things about it, including the story, characters, and dialogues. However, one serious drawback to the game that I've encountered (and which may ultimately discourage me from continuing to play it) is the combat, which feels more akin to action-oriented games like IWD or Diablo than a story-driven game like BG1 - in other words, the game just keeps throwing waves of the same nameless thugs, mages, and/or demons at you, instead of presenting you with individually unique and memorable enemies and encounters. I find that when games do this (like Pillars), the combat comes to feel very repetitive, even tedious, as though it were an impediment or distraction to experiencing the story rather than an integral part of the story itself. Practically every time that I step into a new room now, I think to myself, " *sigh* Oh goodie, yet ANOTHER room full of nameless thugs/mages/demons, etc. ..." This isn't to say that the battles aren't still challenging, but the game's "method" of challenging you is to simply increase the volume of nameless thugs that are thrown at you. On top of that, this kind of repetitive/tedious combat will usually seriously diminish the replay value of a game for me.
By contrast, like many things about BG1, the combat emphasized quality over quantity - instead of endless waves of nameless goons, you encounter individually memorable enemies like Silke, Nimbul, Bassilus, Brage, Davaeorn, etc., who have their own unique abilities, personas, and in some cases, even backstories. For me, many of these characters are almost iconic. Even after all these years, I still get apprehensive about guys like Tarnesh, Nimbul, and Davaeorn, since battles against them are often very unpredictable - they can just as easily kill you as you can kill them. IMO, it's one of the standout qualities of BG1 that still separates it from other RPGs that have come along since then.
Anyone else here feel the same way?
I would give an answer, but honestly the one you said.. couldn't have said it any better than you did.
Amazing thread worthy of a bit of Necropotency, particularly as I am currently making my first playthrough of DA Origins&Awakening [Ultimate Ed] One point that has not been touched upon is the curious effect that the presence of such pests as Xvarts, Tasloi, Kobolds [particularly the Smurf-Xvarts] add to the BG1 game.
It is like suddenly transitioning from awesome plot-lines being conjured out of thin air, if one is so fortunate as never to have heard of the whole Baalspawn theme, swirling in mists...and suddenly everyone is cracking fart-jokes. Simply that emotional and narrative dynamic range is a masterpiece.
If only they had given Imoen a few more well-crafted dialog lines, similar to the complexity of the structure built into your first meeting with her in Candlekeep. A natural-born wisecracker that could have really been developed a bit more, but then her very last minute emptiness also worked because it allowed my RP imagination unlimited scope for speculations.
Speculations about a slightly irksome kid-sister ~that eventually turned out to be about, well, what Imoen actually was all along.
That being said, the emotional power of the characters, world and narratives of DAO have a wrenching power that is enormous. From the very first moment I saw Morrigan poised atop the steps, emerging nonchalantly from a portentous ruin full of untapped meanings, I knew she would have a place in my Mind-Spirit for the rest of my life.
But then I also had a full-size poster of Xena: Warrior-Queen for almost 10 years!!!! Cheers!
PS: I am playing Human Noble Male DW Rogue Bard/Assassin with an intended party including Alistair, Leilana and Morrigan. Currently about to hit Lothering for the first time. Including just enough Archery skills [Arrow of Slaying] to clearly be a bit of a misfit that nevertheless is an alternate gambit that is well more than GOOD ENOUGH and just might wind up filling a tactical whole that the geniuses have overlooked.
I agree with the original poster. In fact, BG1 not only provides "living" villains, but also allies such as Narlen Darkwalk, who are not party members, but who may (or may not) come to the aid of the party for their own reasons. Gorpel Hind is another one that I wish they had developed even more. It is very true that the enemies in Dragon Age become very repetitive and uninteresting despite their increasing power and graphic ugliness. Bottom line, I replayed BG1 way more than DA, and this is one big reason why.
Comments
Even characters like Nalia or Dynaheir who PC places their life on the line to save, what I never understood is this; ok I did this x/y/z thing to help or save you. This placed my life on the line (ignoring that it is perfectly ok for others to give me gold and items for dong the exact same thing). In exchange, they decided to help you, maybe out of a code of honor or just to pay back the debt they now owe.
Now this is the thing after you drag them through the same level if not (more than likely) a much more dangerous situation, how is the debt or the code of honor not settled? I mean with Gynaheir, you have to fight gnolls to save her. How is her debt not clear after dragging her through either of the mines, the second I might add nearly drowns us all alive? How is it not cleared after she helps me fight a mage ogre or two? How am I not indebted to my entire team for dragging them through
Durlag's Tower?
With some characters like Viconia, I get it, they are there with you for protection. Which makes no freaking sense, seeing how I'm pretty sure the life of an adventurer in any fantasy story is far from shrouded in mystery and the greater the exploit the more of a target the group should actually become, regardless of being good or evil, which in fact is kind of the opposite of what viconia needs.
I've gotten way off point, here...
The point I feel if they joined every origin story to Logan, it would've felt forced, ESPECIALLY with how mages are controlled and not allowed in real world politics, not allowed to own land, not even allowed to even love (seriously this was the whole reason you broke into still the friend's phylactery so he could run away with the priestess.) Making Logan a personal mission for Alister alone (unless you are a human noble of course), was the best way to handle that honestly. Even with that said, the betrayal is a strong connection to logan since... you know... you were supposed to die there as well. He even sent assassins after you once he realized you survived. They quite literally hammer "go after logan" into you like every other action.
Ajantis, Xan, Monty & Xzar, Jaheria & Khalid were all sent their respective organizations to look into the iron crisis plaguing the sword coast. Their quest aligned with yours.
Kagain's business of operating a caravan escort service also hinges on the bandit raids stopping as soon as possible. (or at least, the most profitable type)
Imoen is the only family you have left, and there really wasn't any where else for her to go since the gatekeeper won't let either of you in again.
Dynheir & Minsc are in the region investigating Alaundo's prophecy. Tagging along with someone from Candlekeep maybe a good start for them.
Edwin pledges his service to you for a year for helping him with his witch problem. Being lawful, he will (and does) stick to that contract.
Kivan, Branwen, and Yeslick are all after minor villains in the game due to past transgressions. Kivan doesn't get his revenge to till the last battle. Yeslick, not till Candlekeep. Branwen gets hers early, but being a cleric of Tempus (God of Battles), it is fitting for her to stick with you as you sew chaos along the coast.
Faldorn is a tricky one, as she should really never leave cloakwood. Perhaps she realizes the real villians were not in the mine, but in the comfort of their city towers.
Garrick, intrigued by how you handled Silke, decides to follow you around. You are his muse for him to create his next epic ballad.
Viconia really isn't safe on her own, and she realizes this. Traveling with a party that not only saved her, but accepted her is her own course of action.
Eldoth & Skie are using you in much the same way. It is easier to hide (and exploit others) when you are travelling with well armed companions.
Safana and Coran are about adventure. Safana doesn't care where you take her, as long as it is exciting. Coran on the hand, asks you to join him on an adventure and then when you bring him into the city, you see his past life catching up with him, which brings you on a different adventure.
Quayle and Tiax I think are just glad they have someone to follow around and spout their wisdom to.
Alora and Shar-teel are the only two that don't seem to fit IMO. Shar-teel at least wagers her sword arm in a dual (much like Edwin) but I am not seeing why Alora would follow you. Everyone else has their own motive.
Why do I need to escort Monty and Xzar from their obviously wrong location down to Nashkel? Surely if they were told to go that way, the were given proper directions and orders to do so as fast as possible. If the Iron Crisis is such a crisis, why was Khalid and Jaheira just lounging about in the Friendly Arm instead of heading down to the source? Surely that would be considered more important than waiting on someone who may or may not ever head that way? And then you draft him into your own little problems?
The only way things seem to get down on the Sword Coast is that you take your rag-tag band of whomever and make them do what they say they'd do. They're too lazy too other wise.
(I'm well aware this is a programming limitation for back in the day, but still, nothing gets done until you decide it should be done, not others.)
1. You won't hear about problems that have already been solved.
2. The chance of running into a fight scene on a tiny section of the map, just in time to see a five-minute battle in progress, is rather low.
And maybe those stray magic items and gold you find just lying around are actually the leftovers from adventurers clashing with monsters. Say, a gang of kobolds ambushes a mage with a wand and kills him, but doesn't know how to use the wand, so they just throw it away. Hence the random wand you find sitting in the middle of nowhere.
As for DAO (and DAI), I've loved those games for many things, but maybe most of all for companions. Yes, BG gives us wonderful companions as well, with the likes of Minsc, Edwin and Viconia staying in our hearts and minds for many years. But the quality, with which companions are written in DAO (and DAI), is the best for me.
Jaheira and Khalid have a really good reason to stand around in the main room of the Friendly Arm Inn: they were asked by their old companion and friend Gorion to meet him there. They subsequently drag you along on their quest because it was his will for them to look over you.
As for Xzar and Montaron, give them a break. One of them is quite literally insane and the other can only move at half speed.
Kagain, again I don't see why he has to stay with you all the way until fighting sorevok, we stop the bandit raids long before that confrontation and others usually just toss gold or items at charname for fighting much worse. So, kagain going beyond the bandit raid with charname to fight charnames big brother is eh.
Imeon, did you really mention Imeon? REALLY? Out of all the companions, you really felt the need to give a reason why his sister basically needed to be there? I think that I actually feel insulted now...
Dynheir & Minsc, AGAIN, didn't need Charname to do this unless they actually knew that charname was somehow directly connected or the iron shortage was actually directly connected to the prophecy or felt that this was something that would reach their homeland eventually. This would actually take time and energy AWAY from their actual quest!
Edwin just like Imeon, didn't even need to be mentioned.
Kevin, doesn't know that the person he wants revenge on will appear on the same path as charname; you are using the omnipresent eye of the player to actually create that connection. Unless you provide me source information that states Kivan knows that his quest runs parallel to the charname. Maybe there is text selection where charname states toKivan before he joined that he plans on destroying the bandits, don't remember off of the top of my head. I do remember that he is just a random guy standing there, though.
Faldorn is not a tricky one; she is even more poorly written one.
Garrick is eh.
Viconia, I've already addressed Viconia... and even already explained how she is not safe with or with the party, even less safe with charname's party when you take into account how any times he tosses everyone in life or death situations, how many times he has been trapped in dangerous places, and the fact his party is building fame.
Eldoth & Skie, incorrect; it is actually easier to hide when you hide in plain sight or under people noses, not when one is traveling by a group of adventures who is gaining fame through exploits, especially one who is dealing with the BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN THE LAND AND OVER THROWS A COUP! They could've use Charname to travel to a smaller more isolated town and lived there together. Staying with a group literally, has not real logical gain beyond wanting to constantly travel.
Safana and Coran are two more that didn't need to really be mentioned.
Quayle and Tiax I've never used these two so I have no comment.
Shar-teel is the one who makes more sense than everyone yu actually mentioned! (not counting the ones who didn't need to be mentioned). She has something to prove to herself and to EVERYONE. Which is why she has this level of bravado about her, she was moe than likely in the woods for days and eventually ran out of food, water, and gold. So she saw charname and saw a chance to make some by issuing a challenge and offering up the only thing she felt she had left to offer.
Brandwin didn't even need to be mentioned.
Alora and Yeslik i actually can't remember that well so... yea. Half of your reasoning actually don't hold that well and in fact have reasons why they SHOULDN'T OR DIDN'T NEED to join charname.
Upon some of the points you raised:
Kivan
First conversation:
"What foolishness takes city dwellers this far from civilization?"
"We are adventures on the look out for evil to smite."
"...similar quest. I have been hunting the bandits in the region for the past few months."
"We'll help you against the bandits, but only if you tell us why you've spent months hunting them"
"Their leader, an ogre named Tazok, took the life of someone very dear to me."
So Kivan is actually recruiting you to hunt the bandits with him. It should also be known, that Kivan is on a timer. If you don't get to the bandit section in time, he'll leave to do his own thing.
Eldoth
They aren't on the run per say. They want to get ransom for holding Skie captive. You can't do that if you are in some back water village. They also want to show a sign of strength when walking into the guarded area where they go collect the money. Hard to do, without the muscle (you).
Skie will run away if Eldoth isn't in the party with you.
Eldoth will also leave the party if you do not go and recruit Skie. So once again, he has his own motives.
By the time you recruit them, the game centers around the city of Baldur's Gate (with only one stop back at Candlekeep). You aren't (or shouldn't be) travelling as much.
Monty & Xzar
It is safer to travel in numbers. Besides, you and imoen make nice little pack mules.
Xan
Was captured while attempting to look into the iron crisis. He was doomed if he attempted to do it alone. (and a good indication that other parties have been active before you left Candlekeep).
Dynha & Minsc
Once again, they could attempt to do their quest without you, but look how that ended up. They were separated, lost and afraid. Having a local (even a wet noodle such as yourself) around may be in their best interest.
Alaundo's prophecy "chaos will be sewn across the land" part may have to do with the brewing war between Amn and the Sword Coast. Looking into the causes of this war (the iron shortage) might lead them in the right direction (which it does as, SPOILER, both you and saravok are children of bhaal).
Ajantis
Ajantis (where he is located) seems to be heading to the FAI to recruit help with his mission. As stated before, safety in numbers.
Jah & Khalid
Actually disappear if you do the Nashkel mines before meeting them. They don't stick around. They are also not there to look into the iron shortage, they are there to meet you. They just hear about the iron shortage while waiting for you, and being meddling harpers, want to investigate.
Kagain
Is all about greed. Look how much wealth you have accumulated while taking down the bandits. Sticking with you is profitable, and he will do so as long as it remains that way.
I have tried it, but MODs are fan made, which means they aren't canon. Anything that happens in a mod, no matter how lore accurste that isn't directly from the source material, is still fan made. So even though bhaal had many children; if if all the dead bhallspawn was able to pull at their lost energy to come back as sone super bhaal spawn to try and kill Charname, is still fan made despite all of the bhaalspawn are part of the canon and the dead coming back to life is still part of the canon and charname is part pf the canon.
@deltago
Kivan
I am perfectly aware of that, but you kill Tazok long before you learn of your bhaalspawn brother, and afterwards he has no obligations to continue to fight your problem. Again, like you side; he is recruiting you to do x, like EVERY OTHER QUEST of that nature.
Eldoth
Yes you can, have ransom notes delivered via messenger would actually be a lot smarter, and a lot safer than hanging around with a group of adventures, and based on what you just said. Nothing they have charname do comes close to the level of danger they go through if they travel back to candle's keep with him. Literally the equivalent exchange there isn't even fair. Also the word you're looking for is extortion, because that is literally what their plan was, but just to make sure I'm not overlooking anything about their companion quest; I googled it.
The worst charname deals with is 3 measly guards, compared to... Doppelgangers, Ghast, phase spiders, greater doppelganger and so on that Eldoth and Ski would have to deal with following Charname instead of simply paying him some could for doing something so simple, hell something that he could lie through if he has high enough reaction. Now granted, they won't know that they have to fight those types of things if they stick with him, but they do know he is an adventure or a similar type of character due to the very location that you actually find Eldoth which is the third cloakwoods.
Monty & Xzar
Yes... up until you find out what is going on in the Nashkel mines, which again was their job. The have no obligations beyond that! Their job was to investigate, not interfere... and you figure out that it was being poisoned very early into the game. You can argue that they stick around because they want to learn by "who", but the"who" isn't implied and thus is just player speculations on why they remain.
Xan
I completely forgot Xan was even a thing, I have no comment what so ever about Xan.
Ajantis
He is actually a lawful paladin there trying to prove his worth and end the bandit operation. (yep, I just googled him to remember him.) He is just as simple as shar-teel, he is just trying to be mister do good and if you're playing a lawful character than I understand perfectly well why he sticks around. The task placed before him with the group will definitely "prove his worth",
Dynheir & Minsc
Again, they staying makes no freaking sense, The only reason they are there is part of Minsc's Dajemma! They literally have no stake in the iron shortage, no stake in the bandit raid, and nothing to gain from sticking with the group that in fact makes Misc Dajemma even harder than it needs to be seeing how Charname's group is jumping head first into the exact type of trouble that could get Dynheir killed and cause him to fail. Safety in numbers only works when the numbers themselves are actually attempting to be safe. I mean, look how well it turned out when they were on their own you say, isn't like anything bad happened to them while they were traveling with charn... oh wait!
Ding, ding, ding, that was a low blow! But seriously, they shouldn't have even stuck around seeing how it actually endangered the dajemma. There was no self-discovery for Minsc staying with Charname, even after Dynheir died and he realized he couldn't return him. He tried to cling to the past by asking Mrs what shut up about my wings to become his witch instead of using the experience and pain to try to grow. That is a different discussion all together.
Jah & Khalid
What are you even talking about here? I even said, "Jaheria and Khalid have a more valid reason sine Gorion actually asked them to look after charname," I made no claim that they were there for the mines or any other reason. In fact, I even said they didn't need to be mention because its obvious why they would stick around with Charname to the end. The only connection I made between those two and the mines is that they are more seasoned the charname who is still a wet noodle when we do the mines; this means they technically could do it on their own without charname's help do to their experience and technically should be a lot higher in level than they are when you even recruit them.
Kagain
If you're evil, its a lot more profitable honestly, because you're willing to do more things that actually gets you more money whether or not it gains you praise. Like the ahnks, your told not to kill more than a specific amount but you aren't penalized for farming the crap out of them. Yet, a lawful good character wouldn't farm more that the specific amount, unless the player doesn't give 2 ish about the role playing aspect at that moment.
*EDIT* If you really want to insist on canon, as far as WotC are concerned, the games are non-canon. There are a lovely set of novels (it actually hurt to type that) that lay it out for you.
If you cast charm person on Dyanheir before freeing her, she explains that they've come from Rashemen to investigate the prophecies of Alaundo and Minsc is basically her bodyguard during this investigation - your PC not only rescues Dynheir, but obviously would know quite a lot about the prophecies of Alaundo being from Candlekeep. If they were to be found later in the game it may even be patently obvious to the PC that he/she is involved directly in the prophecies which would make you *very* good to hang around for Dynheir and by extension Minsc. Minsc's right of passage is only to guard his witch while she does important stuff (which just so happens to be investigating a prophecy which the PC is involved in directly).
That's basically why the cannon party is Minsc + Dynheir, Imoen, Khalid and Jaheira - because they all have the *most* motivation to stay with the PC regardless of circumstance.
The justifications for the rest of the cast are indeed less well fleshed out, but that's just the nature of the game. When you have NPCs in your RPG you can either take the "less is more" approach where they say very little and the player basically writes a significant portion of the story in their head or where they say a *lot*. Neither approach is necessarily better than the other. It's also fairly clear in BG that *some* of the NPCs are meant to have weaker motivations for staying with the player because the designers expected you to pick up and drop at least some NPCs at various points throughout the game and, I assume, they didn't want to discourage this behavior by making every NPC have super important reasons for staying with you.
For a game like BG, where the gameplay mostly focuses on exploring the Sword Coast and unraveling the plot (typically through exploration), a lot of character stories *could* detract from that experience, or at the very least would've absorbed resources. Whereas a game like Mass Effect 2 is basically *all* about the characters (NPCs) and character interaction and development, so character driven narratives form a significant portion of the gameplay, and are symbiotic with the plot. Torment is another example of how fleshed-out NPC interactions with the PC go hand-in-hand with the gameplay. Since the actual gameplay of Torment is learning (reading) about the setting and your character's place in it. BG exists outside of that realm since the character development of the PC is not really the focus of the plot or gameplay.
Yes I'm pretty sure 90% of the forum is and has been aware of this for a while now! But, I'm also sure when we talk bg on these forums, we are talking about THE GAMES and not the novel everyone hates; so even if I didn't already know that the games weren't canon because of the novel. It is still quite a mute point since we are talking about the game.
Also which one is Tazok again, I was thinking he was the named one you actually killed in the bandit camp when you attacked it.
He is in the camp if you get one of the bandits to bring you to it, where he does fight you, but runs to cloakwood before you can finish him off.
He is one of the goons in the final battle though.
=-)
game.
It is like suddenly transitioning from awesome plot-lines being conjured out of thin air, if one is so fortunate as never to have heard of the whole Baalspawn theme, swirling in mists...and suddenly everyone is cracking fart-jokes. Simply that emotional and narrative dynamic range is a masterpiece.
If only they had given Imoen a few more well-crafted dialog lines, similar to the complexity of the structure built into your first meeting with her in Candlekeep. A natural-born wisecracker that could have really been developed a bit more, but then her very last minute emptiness also worked because it allowed my RP imagination unlimited scope for speculations.
Speculations about a slightly irksome kid-sister ~that eventually turned out to be about, well, what Imoen actually was all along.
That being said, the emotional power of the characters, world and narratives of DAO have a wrenching power that is enormous. From the very first moment I saw Morrigan poised atop the steps, emerging nonchalantly from a portentous ruin full of untapped meanings, I knew she would have a place in my Mind-Spirit for the rest of my life.
But then I also had a full-size poster of Xena:
Warrior-Queen for almost 10 years!!!! Cheers!
PS: I am playing Human Noble Male DW Rogue Bard/Assassin with an intended party including Alistair, Leilana and Morrigan. Currently about to hit Lothering for the first time. Including just enough Archery skills [Arrow of Slaying] to clearly be a bit of a misfit that nevertheless is an alternate gambit that is well more than GOOD ENOUGH and just might wind up filling a tactical whole that the geniuses have overlooked.