Sometimes harsh words are needed to make someone realize the reality of their situations.
We're all here wishing the same thing - the thing is the EE plays and feels like an old classics and in the same time has some enchantment. Yes, the discussions can (and in this case is) be heated, but the factual outcome is the most important thing.
We all need constructive feedback. Tell not only how you feel towards the current UI, but more which parts in particular you would like to be changed and in what way.
I wanted to examine how the stat symbols look in vanilla BG:
It displays AC in a rectangular shield, and HP in a circle.
Extrapolating from these, I think it makes sense to use a "spiked" counterpart of each symbol for the matching offensive stats.
THAC0 is the offensive counterpart of AC, since you make attacks using your THAC0 against your foe's AC. So I think the currently used spiked rectangle makes sense for THAC0. Maybe the symbolism could go even further with a spiked shield, a spiked weapon of some sort, or something like that.
Damage is the offensive counterpart of HP, since you damage your foe's HP with your attacks. In this case, if HP is in a circle, I think a good solution is for damage to be in a spiked circle. In essence, the current 2.0 usage of these two symbols might be better off reversed.
As for APR, I don't have a lot of ideas. Perhaps if THAC0 is changed to a spiked shield, then the spiked rectangle could be repurposed for APR. Maybe it could be a bit smaller than the other symbols to indicate it's a "secondary" stat. (If that's even a thing.)
Or maybe someone has a better idea.
Edit: here's a terrible visualization of what I have in mind:
I feel that perhaps I should clarify myself here. My intention was never to “insult Beamdog”. I love this company, believe it or not. Yes, I am personally very frustrated by some of the design choices that were made, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t support what they are trying to do or that I am not grateful for what they have achieved.
The very fact that @Dee has spent so much time trying to work with the community here, deserves my greatest respect. If I have come off as insulting, I apologize for that. That certainly was never my intention. My statements are meant to convey my strong personal reaction to the changes, not to insult.
I do think that it is important to note that not everyone appreciates the changes. As important as it is to note that some people loved the changes. I obviously represent a different group then some of the more outspoken people here, but I’m not alone. I think it is fair to ask that I also not be disrespected by comments like, “you just can’t accept change.”
Bottom line is though, I don’t mean to show disrespect to Beamdog either, and if I have come off like I do, I certainly apologize for that. This is a great company, one that is trying to listen to the feedback of their players right here in this very thread. How great is that!
@AstroBryGuy said: They are aesthetics over function.
Aesthetics are important. Far to little attention has been given to their importance with the current patches. So much so that SoD feels like it was made by a modder who really likes data base layouts and the colors red and black.
Great for those who like such things, but not in keeping with the iconic feel of the original games.
I'm not saying that aesthetics aren't important, but that they shouldn't trump functionality. Right now, in v2.x and v1.3, they are. The graphics are too small to hold the text even at a normal font - what about those who want to use a larger font size?
The iconographs worked in BG1 & BG2 because they used a fixed width interface (640x480). The developers knew exactly how many pixels the characters in the AC and HP boxes would be and could design around that. BGEE has scalable fonts, so the interface has to provide more space for the stats in the boxes.
The original BG1 interface and the v1.3 EE interface are NOT perfect. In some areas, they're bad...
Example: The Character Record screen text crawl. It's lazy interface design, dumping 90% of the character's info into a small text crawl and the categories are badly done. Why does "Proficiencies" include THAC0, Attacks per round, Turn Undead, Thief Skills, Reputation, Lore, Magic Resistance, Ranger Racial Enemy, and AI Script - but NOT weapon proficiencies?
Unlabeled stat boxes is one of them. BG1 was able to get away with it because there were only two, AC and HP. Now, there's 4, with a suggestion to add APR. 5 unlabeled stat boxes can be intimidating to new users.
I'm not pretending that all the v2.x changes are great - I'm not a fan of the triple-scroll bar dialog window, but I'm not venerating the warts of the original interface either.
IMHO, the original SoD beta was the best inventory screen so far. It labeled the stat boxes and made them big enough to use large fonts. I didn't miss the spiked boxes and circles. Obviously, others do; that's why my mockup included iconographs, but made them bigger, so that they could display the information without needing font reduction. But, anything different from v1.3 gets shot down for changing the "classic interface".
Personally I think I'd want at least some of the stat boxes labelled. After years of playing these games, I still can't remember where half the information is off the top of my head and something like APR isn't necessarily self-explanatory. I just also really want to be able to read the information inside of the boxes so if some of them need to be unlabeled in order to make it all fit, I'd be up for a compromise.
(And I have to say it's really weird to see the old BG1 inventory screen again. I'd apparently completely forgotten what it actually looked like)
I think One Square is my favorite so far if we can make it all fit with icons for those who want them. I've sort of lost track of which mock up is which, but I'm pretty sure it's that or Big Box.
@AstroBryGuy Do you have an image or basic mock up of the entire SOD beta version for those of us who never played it?
Finally, to go back to the inventory management idea, I would personally like a pick up everything button when taking things off the ground in the inventory screen. (Or any other way to get stuff into my inventory without having to click the item on the ground and then click the box in my inventory) That and a faster way to switch items between characters would save me a lot of time.
@AstroBryGuy I can see your point. The problem here is that we aren’t talking about a new game, but an old iconic one where how things look and feel can be more important to many people then adding new bells and whistles.
It’s not changing any one thing that is the problem, but the accumulation of so many changes that the original feeling is being lost for some people.
I’ll try another example here. I understand that they were working on a way to make it unnecessary to go into your inventory to change from using a bow to a sword and shield. Believe me I would love to be able to take advantage of that function, but it is simply not worth it to me if the game in it’s entirety no longer feels like Baldur’s Gate to me.
I’m only using such a long explanation to try and illustrate why something that may seem small, like these icons, does matter. Not the end of the world by themselves, but I do think that we need to consider aesthetics when discussing such changes.
I didn’t see your mock up as I wasn’t involved in the beta.
I do want to say that I have the greatest respect for everything that you have done for this game and community, I am grateful for that. I just strongly disagree that choosing function over aesthetics is always the best choice.
The question is, with the "one square" layout, where the stat icons are accompanied by a text field containing the names of the same stats in the same order, do we need to have the stat names appear twice by also labeling the icons? Or would it be enough to see the stat icons and a list of the same stats in the text box?
I personally don’t see the need for the extra text. Without it, perhaps the icons could be enlarged so that the fonts inside of them would not be crowded.
The extra text is rather important. Not only does it help to know how you got to the total value, but there are also details that aren't in the main values, such as AC modifiers to specific damage types.
The text however won't match the icons exactly (it's 1 big textbox, not several smaller ones), so yeah, the name needs to be in the textbox, to clarify which text it applies to.
I'm wondering, if there's going to be one big textbox, could something like resistances be added to the bottom of the list? Resistances are mostly built up from gear. Just an idea...
@Danathion: Text over icons gives a very crowded feeling.
@Ravenslight: What is important to you? The general presence of some aesthetics, or specifically the icons that were used in 1.3?
Aesthetics are nice, and I love seeing aesthetics left and right, as long as they don't hurt functionality. In this case, the aesthetics come at a severe cost of functionality, that it's very hard to read what's in the icons in some cases, so yeah, I agree with AstroBryGuy that functionality is the more important factor here.
If there's a lack of space in the icon area, maybe it would be a reasonable solution to omit the APR icon and stat number, and just have APR appear as an additional line of text at the bottom of the big text field. Kinda like how it used to be in 1.3, except separated from the damage breakdown, because it doesn't really belong there.
I could definitely live without an APR icon as long as it appears somewhere in the inventory. And I agree that the Header text for each item needs to be in the big box if it's not going to line up exactly with the icons. Otherwise everything will just run together. I could go either way for the Icon Text (that tell you this symbol is HP, etc) depending on space. If the symbols are really clear, we probably don't need it.
@Thels said: @Ravenslight: What is important to you? The general presence of some aesthetics, or specifically the icons that were used in 1.3?
The 1.3 version had icons for AC and Hit Points that, though not exactly like the originals, were in keeping with the feel of the originals. Glancing over at these icons, seeing the numbers change there, is part of the iconic feel of the game for me. I need to see some of the familiar shapes and textures. Making everything into cold hard boxes removes this feeling for me.
The boxes of text on the right hand side, I can do without. I except them because others like them.
Perhaps you can better understand by looking at this old screenshot from Sorcerer’s Place.
Originally, the inventory screen was much more ornate. Some of the artwork was lost with the EE editions. Ok, I accepted that. It added some things that others wanted and even some things that I found a useful, over time. It felt like there was an attempt to retain the old iconic feel of the game.
Now we have SoD’s inventory. With SoD, the direction seems to have changed entirely.
It is all hard edges without any of the iconic elements. It feels like a striped down data sheet. The charm is completely gone.
Now it is being suggested that we toss out the icon elements for the other two EE editions as well. This is bewildering to me. To answer your question, keeping those icons helps to retain some of the feel of the original games.
@Danathion Yes, that's more like what I was thinking of, though it needs more contrast between the text and the background.
definitely I really haven't done the idea justice - it needs some adjustment to resolve the crowded feeling @Thels pointed out .
with the headers in the list over collapsible sections as Dee suggested I don't think the 'icon boxes' need the descriptions, just the values. otherwise it really would be too cluttered.
@Ravenslight: Not exactly what I was asking you. What I want to know, is it important to you that the icons are similar/identical to the 1.3 icons, or that there is some kind of ornamentation to it?
As you can see even in the second screenshot you linked, the HP values are tiny, and there just isn't enough room to display the damage values for both weapons in there.
The purpose of the Inventory screen is to provide you with a means to change your inventory, and see the effects this has on your stats. It's primary purpose is not to be a pretty screenshot to just look at. Of course, if this interface can be made to look aesthetically pleasing while performing it's primary purpose, then that's great. However, if aesthetics are shoved in in such a way that the screen no longer perform's it's intended purpose, then why even have the screen? Why not just a screen of a real pretty picture to look at?
Going off @Ravenslight 's examples I definitely prefer the 1.3 version over the SOD version. Part of that is probably the color scheme since I find the lack of contrast makes it harder to see details (particularly around the character), but it also just looks much plainer now. I think the problem isn't just the icons, it's that they removed all the fancy little ornamentation that there used to be.
Personally I could probably live without the exact same icons as long as the rest of the little symbols and background ornamentation was still there. As far as I can tell, removing the decorative bits (like in the upper left corner and around the gold) doesn't actually serve function at all. It just makes the screen less interesting. The SOD version also lacks all the extra information in the boxes, which I actually find useful and would like to keep.
@Ravenslight: Not exactly what I was asking you. What I want to know, is it important to you that the icons are similar/identical to the 1.3 icons, or that there is some kind of ornamentation to it?
As you can see even in the second screenshot you linked, the HP values are tiny, and there just isn't enough room to display the damage values for both weapons in there.
The purpose of the Inventory screen is to provide you with a means to change your inventory, and see the effects this has on your stats. It's primary purpose is not to be a pretty screenshot to just look at. Of course, if this interface can be made to look aesthetically pleasing while performing it's primary purpose, then that's great. However, if aesthetics are shoved in in such a way that the screen no longer perform's it's intended purpose, then why even have the screen? Why not just a screen of a real pretty picture to look at?
The purpose of any of the screens is not just function. For any RPG game, they should also help further the illusion and immersion of being in the world of the game that they are set in.
@Thels said: However, if aesthetics are shoved in in such a way that the screen no longer perform's it's intended purpose, then why even have the screen? Why not just a screen of a real pretty picture to look at?
This is not remotely close to what I am saying. It also feels dismissive and rude. “Go away little girl and take your pretty pictures with you.”
I am not trying to “shove in” aesthetics, I am trying to not have all of the aesthetic elements “shoved out”.
These games have functioned very well for many years without the changes brought with the current patch. Adding new elements that people would like to see is a good thing. But some consideration should be made for keeping enough of the original elements that it still feels like the same game.
@Ravenslight I think that @Thels is pointing out that there's room for aesthetics within a functionally satisfying design, but a design that focuses only on aesthetics may run the risk of being functionally useless.
From an aesthetic point of view, ornamentation is possible anywhere that there's space for it; in the One Box design, for example, each of those stat "buttons" has enough of a buffer to allow artists to add art to make them look appealing; the spacing of the buttons themselves, as shown in the design, allows the artist to see exactly how much space they need to leave for text.
Ideally you'd want room for the labels too, so that there's no confusion over what those stats are--but if the iconography is clear enough, they're not necessary. And that means more room for art.
Well, for me there will always be FUNCTIONALITY before AESTHETICS, but looking at the pictures @Ravenslight kindly presented, she have a solid point. The SoD interface looks raw, there should be some kind of ornamentation. And it shouldn't be solely black - the reason why 1.3 UI looks more immersive (apart of ornamentation) is that it have both lighter and darker elements.
To answer the question of whether the icons need to retain their exact shape.
As long as the general feel is retained, it wouldn’t bother me personally if they were altered to allow bigger fonts. I just don’t want them to turn into plain boxes or get dropped entirely.
@Ravenslight: I'm not saying there shouldn't be any aesthetics. Wherever there is room for them, it would be nice to include them. However, each screen is set to do certain things, and thus must be able to do those things, as that's what their purpose is.
The texts as they were in 1.3 inside the icons were losing functionality. They were so small, as well as infringing on the icons themselves, which made them really hard to read. They can be pretty icons, but if they don't deliver the information they're supposed to deliver, then they aren't doing their job.
The SOD image does it's job, but is so ugly and out of place, that it's clearly not the way to go forward (not to mention that the "NEW" text is very misleading). It is also taking up a whole lot of space being textfields like that, with the actual values in a separate column.
They're a couple of important key numbers. I totally agree that they need to be displayed in an aesthetic way, rather than as a column of values. I just don't think the 1.3 way is that way, as in 1.3, the aesthetics came at the cost of function (numbers being very hard to read).
@Cahir I've never seen that topic before, those screens look very pretty! The layout deviates from what I'm used to too much for my tastes, but the ornamentation is incredible.
Thanks for sharing! Though now I'm sad the author's no longer active here.
@Adul I've put this one here only to give some more perspective on aesthetics. If devs could somehow combine functionality of SoD with aesthetics of Soulmarine layouts it would be incredible.
I like some of the elements of it. For me, it makes me think more of Icewind Dale then Baldur’s Gate though. I think his interpretation of the map is neat.
Going off @Ravenslight 's examples I definitely prefer the 1.3 version over the SOD version. Part of that is probably the color scheme since I find the lack of contrast makes it harder to see details (particularly around the character), but it also just looks much plainer now. I think the problem isn't just the icons, it's that they removed all the fancy little ornamentation that there used to be.
Personally I could probably live without the exact same icons as long as the rest of the little symbols and background ornamentation was still there. As far as I can tell, removing the decorative bits (like in the upper left corner and around the gold) doesn't actually serve function at all. It just makes the screen less interesting. The SOD version also lacks all the extra information in the boxes, which I actually find useful and would like to keep.
What @Ravenslight posted is what appears on the inventory screen when you pick up a new weapon or armor. It compares your current weapon/armor with the potential replacement.
Here is the normal inventory screen in the v2.x release version:
The beta SoD inventory screen did use the same layout at the item comparison. It may not have the iconography, but it was clear what the stats are because there are labels (good for new players who don't automatically associate spiked circles with health or spiked boxes with attack ability). Also, note that the numbers were displayed in a large font - and they fit without font reduction!
Compare that to v1.3, where the HP font is shrunk to half the height of the normal font in order to fit it into the spiked circle. (Also, the font has such over-the-top decoration that the "2s" start to look like "9s", but that's another issue.)
You have a similar effect in SoD's inventory, the fonts for HP, THAC0, and Damage are all reduced compared to the normal font.
My initial suggestion was to use bigger iconography so that there would be room for the stats to display at full font size. I also suggested the iconography be changed to something more suggestive of the stat, i.e., get rid of the spiked circle, spiked box, and plain circle and use, for example, heart, fist, and/or sword looking icons. That way, you can have icons but don't have to turn on Windows Magnifier to read what's in them.
@AstroBryGuy That's good to know. I don't have SOD so I'm just going off the screenshots. I still miss the decoration that was lost for the SOD version and would like to see some return in the empty areas but I am all for larger (and more fitting) iconography.
I personally don't have an issue reading the stats in either version (v1.3 blue or v2.x dragon), but I agree that icons that convey their purpose more clearly would be a welcome change. However it's difficult to create symbols that clearly indicate their meaning, are aesthetically pleasing, and can fit large fonts inside.
For example, having a sword as a symbol for THAC0 would be pretty easy to understand at fist glance, but a sword shape does not easily lend itself to having a text field inside it that's large enough to show the stat in a reasonably sized font.
I think some concessions will have to be made, be they in aesthetic, in function, or both.
Comments
Sometimes harsh words are needed to make someone realize the reality of their situations.
We're all here wishing the same thing - the thing is the EE plays and feels like an old classics and in the same time has some enchantment. Yes, the discussions can (and in this case is) be heated, but the factual outcome is the most important thing.
We all need constructive feedback. Tell not only how you feel towards the current UI, but more which parts in particular you would like to be changed and in what way.
So, lets' just move on.
It displays AC in a rectangular shield, and HP in a circle.
Extrapolating from these, I think it makes sense to use a "spiked" counterpart of each symbol for the matching offensive stats.
THAC0 is the offensive counterpart of AC, since you make attacks using your THAC0 against your foe's AC. So I think the currently used spiked rectangle makes sense for THAC0. Maybe the symbolism could go even further with a spiked shield, a spiked weapon of some sort, or something like that.
Damage is the offensive counterpart of HP, since you damage your foe's HP with your attacks. In this case, if HP is in a circle, I think a good solution is for damage to be in a spiked circle. In essence, the current 2.0 usage of these two symbols might be better off reversed.
As for APR, I don't have a lot of ideas. Perhaps if THAC0 is changed to a spiked shield, then the spiked rectangle could be repurposed for APR. Maybe it could be a bit smaller than the other symbols to indicate it's a "secondary" stat. (If that's even a thing.)
Or maybe someone has a better idea.
Edit: here's a terrible visualization of what I have in mind:
The very fact that @Dee has spent so much time trying to work with the community here, deserves my greatest respect. If I have come off as insulting, I apologize for that. That certainly was never my intention. My statements are meant to convey my strong personal reaction to the changes, not to insult.
I do think that it is important to note that not everyone appreciates the changes. As important as it is to note that some people loved the changes. I obviously represent a different group then some of the more outspoken people here, but I’m not alone. I think it is fair to ask that I also not be disrespected by comments like, “you just can’t accept change.”
Bottom line is though, I don’t mean to show disrespect to Beamdog either, and if I have come off like I do, I certainly apologize for that. This is a great company, one that is trying to listen to the feedback of their players right here in this very thread. How great is that!
The iconographs worked in BG1 & BG2 because they used a fixed width interface (640x480). The developers knew exactly how many pixels the characters in the AC and HP boxes would be and could design around that. BGEE has scalable fonts, so the interface has to provide more space for the stats in the boxes.
The original BG1 interface and the v1.3 EE interface are NOT perfect. In some areas, they're bad...
Example: The Character Record screen text crawl. It's lazy interface design, dumping 90% of the character's info into a small text crawl and the categories are badly done. Why does "Proficiencies" include THAC0, Attacks per round, Turn Undead, Thief Skills, Reputation, Lore, Magic Resistance, Ranger Racial Enemy, and AI Script - but NOT weapon proficiencies?
Unlabeled stat boxes is one of them. BG1 was able to get away with it because there were only two, AC and HP. Now, there's 4, with a suggestion to add APR. 5 unlabeled stat boxes can be intimidating to new users.
I'm not pretending that all the v2.x changes are great - I'm not a fan of the triple-scroll bar dialog window, but I'm not venerating the warts of the original interface either.
IMHO, the original SoD beta was the best inventory screen so far. It labeled the stat boxes and made them big enough to use large fonts. I didn't miss the spiked boxes and circles. Obviously, others do; that's why my mockup included iconographs, but made them bigger, so that they could display the information without needing font reduction. But, anything different from v1.3 gets shot down for changing the "classic interface".
(And I have to say it's really weird to see the old BG1 inventory screen again. I'd apparently completely forgotten what it actually looked like)
I think One Square is my favorite so far if we can make it all fit with icons for those who want them. I've sort of lost track of which mock up is which, but I'm pretty sure it's that or Big Box.
@AstroBryGuy Do you have an image or basic mock up of the entire SOD beta version for those of us who never played it?
Finally, to go back to the inventory management idea, I would personally like a pick up everything button when taking things off the ground in the inventory screen. (Or any other way to get stuff into my inventory without having to click the item on the ground and then click the box in my inventory) That and a faster way to switch items between characters would save me a lot of time.
I can see your point. The problem here is that we aren’t talking about a new game, but an old iconic one where how things look and feel can be more important to many people then adding new bells and whistles.
It’s not changing any one thing that is the problem, but the accumulation of so many changes that the original feeling is being lost for some people.
I’ll try another example here. I understand that they were working on a way to make it unnecessary to go into your inventory to change from using a bow to a sword and shield. Believe me I would love to be able to take advantage of that function, but it is simply not worth it to me if the game in it’s entirety no longer feels like Baldur’s Gate to me.
I’m only using such a long explanation to try and illustrate why something that may seem small, like these icons, does matter. Not the end of the world by themselves, but I do think that we need to consider aesthetics when discussing such changes.
I didn’t see your mock up as I wasn’t involved in the beta.
I do want to say that I have the greatest respect for everything that you have done for this game and community, I am grateful for that. I just strongly disagree that choosing function over aesthetics is always the best choice.
Very rudimentary Paint job (@Pecca I ain't), using familiar images from the game screen and the Priest heal spell symbol for HP. You get the idea
Edit: Personally I wouldn't put the name in the icon box, to me the order in the list should be self explanatory.
The text however won't match the icons exactly (it's 1 big textbox, not several smaller ones), so yeah, the name needs to be in the textbox, to clarify which text it applies to.
I'm wondering, if there's going to be one big textbox, could something like resistances be added to the bottom of the list? Resistances are mostly built up from gear. Just an idea...
@Danathion: Text over icons gives a very crowded feeling.
@Ravenslight: What is important to you? The general presence of some aesthetics, or specifically the icons that were used in 1.3?
Aesthetics are nice, and I love seeing aesthetics left and right, as long as they don't hurt functionality. In this case, the aesthetics come at a severe cost of functionality, that it's very hard to read what's in the icons in some cases, so yeah, I agree with AstroBryGuy that functionality is the more important factor here.
And I agree that the Header text for each item needs to be in the big box if it's not going to line up exactly with the icons. Otherwise everything will just run together.
I could go either way for the Icon Text (that tell you this symbol is HP, etc) depending on space. If the symbols are really clear, we probably don't need it.
@Ravenslight: What is important to you? The general presence of some aesthetics, or specifically the icons that were used in 1.3?
The 1.3 version had icons for AC and Hit Points that, though not exactly like the originals, were in keeping with the feel of the originals. Glancing over at these icons, seeing the numbers change there, is part of the iconic feel of the game for me. I need to see some of the familiar shapes and textures. Making everything into cold hard boxes removes this feeling for me.
The boxes of text on the right hand side, I can do without. I except them because others like them.
Perhaps you can better understand by looking at this old screenshot from Sorcerer’s Place.
Originally, the inventory screen was much more ornate. Some of the artwork was lost with the EE editions. Ok, I accepted that. It added some things that others wanted and even some things that I found a useful, over time. It felt like there was an attempt to retain the old iconic feel of the game.
Now we have SoD’s inventory. With SoD, the direction seems to have changed entirely.
It is all hard edges without any of the iconic elements. It feels like a striped down data sheet. The charm is completely gone.
Now it is being suggested that we toss out the icon elements for the other two EE editions as well. This is bewildering to me. To answer your question, keeping those icons helps to retain some of the feel of the original games.
with the headers in the list over collapsible sections as Dee suggested I don't think the 'icon boxes' need the descriptions, just the values. otherwise it really would be too cluttered.
As you can see even in the second screenshot you linked, the HP values are tiny, and there just isn't enough room to display the damage values for both weapons in there.
The purpose of the Inventory screen is to provide you with a means to change your inventory, and see the effects this has on your stats. It's primary purpose is not to be a pretty screenshot to just look at. Of course, if this interface can be made to look aesthetically pleasing while performing it's primary purpose, then that's great. However, if aesthetics are shoved in in such a way that the screen no longer perform's it's intended purpose, then why even have the screen? Why not just a screen of a real pretty picture to look at?
Personally I could probably live without the exact same icons as long as the rest of the little symbols and background ornamentation was still there. As far as I can tell, removing the decorative bits (like in the upper left corner and around the gold) doesn't actually serve function at all. It just makes the screen less interesting. The SOD version also lacks all the extra information in the boxes, which I actually find useful and would like to keep.
The purpose of any of the screens is not just function. For any RPG game, they should also help further the illusion and immersion of being in the world of the game that they are set in.
@Thels said:
However, if aesthetics are shoved in in such a way that the screen no longer perform's it's intended purpose, then why even have the screen? Why not just a screen of a real pretty picture to look at?
This is not remotely close to what I am saying. It also feels dismissive and rude. “Go away little girl and take your pretty pictures with you.”
I am not trying to “shove in” aesthetics, I am trying to not have all of the aesthetic elements “shoved out”.
These games have functioned very well for many years without the changes brought with the current patch. Adding new elements that people would like to see is a good thing. But some consideration should be made for keeping enough of the original elements that it still feels like the same game.
From an aesthetic point of view, ornamentation is possible anywhere that there's space for it; in the One Box design, for example, each of those stat "buttons" has enough of a buffer to allow artists to add art to make them look appealing; the spacing of the buttons themselves, as shown in the design, allows the artist to see exactly how much space they need to leave for text.
Ideally you'd want room for the labels too, so that there's no confusion over what those stats are--but if the iconography is clear enough, they're not necessary. And that means more room for art.
As long as the general feel is retained, it wouldn’t bother me personally if they were altered to allow bigger fonts. I just don’t want them to turn into plain boxes or get dropped entirely.
The texts as they were in 1.3 inside the icons were losing functionality. They were so small, as well as infringing on the icons themselves, which made them really hard to read. They can be pretty icons, but if they don't deliver the information they're supposed to deliver, then they aren't doing their job.
The SOD image does it's job, but is so ugly and out of place, that it's clearly not the way to go forward (not to mention that the "NEW" text is very misleading). It is also taking up a whole lot of space being textfields like that, with the actual values in a separate column.
They're a couple of important key numbers. I totally agree that they need to be displayed in an aesthetic way, rather than as a column of values. I just don't think the 1.3 way is that way, as in 1.3, the aesthetics came at the cost of function (numbers being very hard to read).
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/769662#Comment_769662
Shame, @Soulmarine's gone, bte.
Thanks for sharing! Though now I'm sad the author's no longer active here.
I like some of the elements of it. For me, it makes me think more of Icewind Dale then Baldur’s Gate though. I think his interpretation of the map is neat.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/399108#Comment_399108
https://imgur.com/a/ToHxs#0
Damn, we didn't have luck for finished UI projects (beside @Pecca's)...
Here is the normal inventory screen in the v2.x release version:
The beta SoD inventory screen did use the same layout at the item comparison. It may not have the iconography, but it was clear what the stats are because there are labels (good for new players who don't automatically associate spiked circles with health or spiked boxes with attack ability). Also, note that the numbers were displayed in a large font - and they fit without font reduction!
Compare that to v1.3, where the HP font is shrunk to half the height of the normal font in order to fit it into the spiked circle. (Also, the font has such over-the-top decoration that the "2s" start to look like "9s", but that's another issue.)
You have a similar effect in SoD's inventory, the fonts for HP, THAC0, and Damage are all reduced compared to the normal font.
My initial suggestion was to use bigger iconography so that there would be room for the stats to display at full font size. I also suggested the iconography be changed to something more suggestive of the stat, i.e., get rid of the spiked circle, spiked box, and plain circle and use, for example, heart, fist, and/or sword looking icons. That way, you can have icons but don't have to turn on Windows Magnifier to read what's in them.
For example, having a sword as a symbol for THAC0 would be pretty easy to understand at fist glance, but a sword shape does not easily lend itself to having a text field inside it that's large enough to show the stat in a reasonably sized font.
I think some concessions will have to be made, be they in aesthetic, in function, or both.