@Mr2150 is correct; nothing to do with art here, just positioning.
Here's the next mock-up. Again, it's...different. But it shows a different way of doing things:
I call this the "Big Box", because instead of four little boxes that always show the break-down of each stat, we just have one box that contains context-specific information.
That box could be used in a couple of different ways: 1. Click on a stat, and it shows you the break-down for that stat. 2. When you select an item, it shows you the item's description. 3. When you select an item, it shows you the comparison table.
Option 2 isn't ideal, because longer descriptions won't fit and when you're holding an item you can't drag the window. But it's something that's been pitched a few times in various places, so I'm listing it here for completeness.
Forgive the arrangement of the stats at the top there; assume that those would be placed more neatly in the final version.
In this mock design, the iconography remains tied to the numbers, which I know some people here were asking to be separated. Hopefully by splitting the Main and Off-Hand weapons, there's a bit more room for those numbers to breathe.
I don't think @Dee is proposing any art changes - this is just about the positions of the elements.
This new positioning of elements requires changes to the art.
To be fair, any changes to the UI will require changes to the art. What @Mr2150 is pointing out (which is accurate) is that I'm not proposing what the art will look like. Right now I'm working with the assumption that the final iconography would bear more similarities with the current EE iconography, but without the empty space in the middle.
I believe that giving little consideration to the artwork while planning the new screens shows in the current product. The current patches tell me this over and over. This game is about more than just the positioning of stats.
First of all, 3x3 field for "Ground" is exactly the enlargement I've wanted. Then, to be able to see all those AC, HP, THAC0 and damage with clear calculations is exatcly what I want from the inventory screen. Also, I'm happy to see THAC0 and damage for off-hand weapon.
I understand that version is new if compared to the vanilla look, but all those clear numbers feel old-school. I don't agree it looks like so many of the current builds screens. It looks like a BG screen with clear data that I need.
I believe that giving little consideration to the artwork while planning the new screens shows in the current product. The current patches tell me this over and over. This game is about more than just the positioning of stats.
I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point (in which case, ouch), or if you just don't understand what I'm saying:
I'm not a visual artist. I can't give you a mock-up with final art in it. All I can do is position the elements to represent where that final art will go. I can tell you what I'm imagining for those pieces, but any changes to these screens will require changes to the art.
If you don't trust us to make those art changes, then...I guess stick with v1.3? Everything here is going to require those changes you don't seem to trust us to make to your satisfaction. What exactly are you looking for?
I am looking to have some thought go into retaining the iconic feel of the original games as these decisions are made. Every concern in that direction seems to get swept aside here. When people make statements like “the mage book feels like a data base now instead of a mage book” this is what they mean.
Then, to be able to see all those AC, HP, THAC0 and damage with clear calculations is exatcly what I want from the inventory screen. Also, I'm happy to see THAC0 and damage for off-hand weapon.
I understand that version is new if compared to the vanilla look, but all those clear numbers feel old-school. I don't agree it looks like so many of the current builds screens. It looks like a BG screen with clear data that I need.
Out of interest, I just showed the screens to a friend with Dyscalculia and she said that she prefers the same one as you because 'long lists of words with numbers attached to them forces me to add everything up manually'... Obviously we aren't making a game just for my friend but I think that summarising it all does help - and would certainly help new players.
I am looking to have some thought go into retaining the iconic feel of the original games as these decisions are made. Every concern in that direction seems to get swept aside here. When people make statements like “the mage book feels like a data base now instead of a mage book” this is what they mean.
I get that. Believe me, I do.
The iconic feel is what we're aiming for, here. The first example, modeled after PnP character sheets, is a different approach. It may not be the right one. Take a look at the second proposal; it's closer to what you're familiar with, but still with some differences.
If you don't like something, try to tell us why. "It looks like a database" is helpful, and gives fuel to the conversation. "The current patches are a mess and I don't trust you to do it right" is profoundly unhelpful.
I am looking to have some thought go into retaining the iconic feel of the original games as these decisions are made. Every concern in that direction seems to get swept aside here. When people make statements like “the mage book feels like a data base now instead of a mage book” this is what they mean.
I think it comes down to capabilities. We aren't going to be able to make graphics or art for the game here. But what we can do is provide layouts and guidance to the people that do. They will hopefully take our feedback and act on it. EG we want 'the symbol' for HP to go here, and 'the symbol' for THACO to go there.
Discussing the colour or look of the symbol is discussing something that we can't impact. That's down to the art guys.
I believe that giving little consideration to the artwork while planning the new screens shows in the current product. The current patches tell me this over and over. This game is about more than just the positioning of stats.
No one is suggesting that the artwork be an afterthought. I'm just not a graphic artist, so the best I could do was find shape outlines to represent the iconographs.
The problem with the current iconographs is that they are fixed size elements in a UI with scalable fonts, and they are too small to do the job. To show both weapon damage stats in one iconograph (as in v1.3), it needs to be big enough to fit at least 5 character across in two rows. The current iconograph is nowhere near big enough, so the font gets shrunk to fit the pre-rendered box (which can't use the whole interior width, since it's a circle).
The original interface worked with the stats inside iconographs because it was a fixed width interface. BG1 supported 640x480 resolution. BG2 added 800x600 support by drawing a border around a 640x480 interface. When you have that kind of pixel-level control of the interface, you can do stuff like make tight boxes around the stats. With a scalable interface, you need to make a more flexible design, one that accommodates varying font sizes. Also, the original games didn't show main-hand and off-hand weapon damage on the inventory screen, so they didn't have that part of the issue.
Also, Dee isn't suggesting using the actual IWD2 iconographs, but using a similar layout, i.e., an iconograph next to the box for the stat. So, you'd still have the iconographs (and they'd be related to the stat, e.g. maybe a heart for HP), but the display for the stat could better support scalable fonts.
Okay, here's a third mock-up. This one represents the current layout of the SoD UI in terms of the top-right box. I've taken the liberty of adding text labels to each stat so that we know what we're looking at, but if you want that text to stay there it's going to need art to back it up.
This is just for reference's sake, to compare the previous mock designs with the release build without looking at the art:
It's worth bearing in mind that this layout, which I'm calling "Four Square" (for obvious reasons), is not from the original game; it's from the Enhanced Edition. I say that because a lot has been said about this being the "original design", as if we'd had these text blocks for the past two decades, and that's not the case.
So now we have three separate designs to work with. Three very different approaches to the same problem. Questions? Comments? Fashion concerns?
@Dee said: The first example, modeled after PnP character sheets, is a different approach.
Baldur’s Gate, the game, is not a PnP character sheet. I know you know this, I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing to draw inspiration from.
As you get rid of the little touches like the iconic artwork that the armor class numbers are set into in the older versions, you erode away more of the feel that went with the original games. Over time, as more and more of it gets left out, the whole thing starts to feel more cold, “data base” like.
It’s not any one single thing, but the accumulations of all of these small changes that is leaving this game feeling less and less like playing a Baldur’s Gate game. Perhaps great if you like to play solo runs or min-max stats, but not at all appealing if you want to get immersed in a role-playing game.
@Dee said: The first example, modeled after PnP character sheets, is a different approach.
Baldur’s Gate, the game, is not a PnP character sheet. I know you know this, I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing to draw inspiration from.
As you get rid of the little touches like the iconic artwork that the armor class numbers are set into in the older versions, you erode away more of the feel that went with the original games. Over time, as more and more of it gets left out, the whole thing starts to feel more cold, “data base” like.
It’s not any one single thing, but the accumulations of all of these small changes that is leaving this game feeling less and less like playing a Baldur’s Gate game. Perhaps great if you like to play solo runs or min-max stats, but not at all appealing if you want to get immersed in a role-playing game.
Does that make sense?
Yes, that does make sense. Question, though: Would it make any difference if the totals were still inside their icons like they are now? It doesn't solve the problem of the text being shrunk down, but it maintains the "numbers inside a shield" idea.
(Also worth noting: in the original games, only AC and Hit Points were shown on this screen, with no explanation. That's not to say that this is a sign that we can throw everything out the window, just pointing out another thing that is different with the Enhanced Edition versus the original versions.)
@Dee said: It's worth bearing in mind that this layout, which I'm calling "Four Square" (for obvious reasons), is not from the original game; it's from the Enhanced Edition. I say that because a lot has been said about this being the "original design", as if we'd had these text blocks for the past two decades, and that's not the case.
I am well aware of that.
At this point I can only say that your third mockup is better then the first two.
I think this mockup looks too mechanical, and it's too rigid to display the right information. Non-warrior characters typically have no need of the proficiency information (unless they're not proficient with their weapon). The slot that's labeled "misc" is the interesting part that tells you what items contribute to your stat, and that's too important to boil down to a single number. Using the tooltip to see the breakdowns would be tiresome.
The current layout is great in that it displays modifiers as lines of text, so it only needs to display actual relevant information and can simply omit lines that are not relevant (like proficiency, some of the time).
I like this mockup better, but it still hides information behind player action (this time a single click, which is, of course, better than the tooltip). Although I imagine when empty, the large textbox would look out of place, especially considering there's another textbox already on screen that's also usually empty.
@Dee said: Question, though: Would it make any difference if the totals were still inside their icons like they are now? It doesn't solve the problem of the text being shrunk down, but it maintains the "numbers inside a shield" idea.
The trouble with the currently released layout is that it requires scrolling in order to see all of that information; and as you say, the miscellaneous modifiers are the juicy bits that the player will want to look at, and they're all listed at the bottom of those descriptions.
The "Big Box" design lets you see all of those things when you want to see them, although I agree that requiring a click isn't ideal. The question is, do you prefer to click/tap, or scroll? Not everyone's going to have the same answer to that question--and the people who complained about the current version may be helped by the Big Box, while the people who like the current version may complain about the Big Box.
Meanwhile poor @bengoshi@JuliusBorisov wants everything to be laid out like a character sheet, and he's not getting what he wants at all with these text box solutions.
So...somebody pitch me something. Offer a solution and I'll try to mock it up. We have one solution that's essentially "leave it the way it is", and then two solutions that are departures from the current design. Is there a middle ground?
@Dee said: Question, though: Would it make any difference if the totals were still inside their icons like they are now? It doesn't solve the problem of the text being shrunk down, but it maintains the "numbers inside a shield" idea.
I’m not understanding the question.
Right now, in that first mock-up, the icon is to the left of the total. The question is, does the problem get solved by simply putting the total inside the icon like it was before? How does that tweak change your perception of that design?
@Dee said: Question, though: Would it make any difference if the totals were still inside their icons like they are now? It doesn't solve the problem of the text being shrunk down, but it maintains the "numbers inside a shield" idea.
I’m not understanding the question.
Right now, in that first mock-up, the icon is to the left of the total. The question is, does the problem get solved by simply putting the total inside the icon like it was before? How does that tweak change your perception of that design?
Not a lot, no. It still looks like a data base has been moved into the inventory.
@Dee said: Question, though: Would it make any difference if the totals were still inside their icons like they are now? It doesn't solve the problem of the text being shrunk down, but it maintains the "numbers inside a shield" idea.
I’m not understanding the question.
Right now, in that first mock-up, the icon is to the left of the total. The question is, does the problem get solved by simply putting the total inside the icon like it was before? How does that tweak change your perception of that design?
Not a lot, no. It still looks like a data base has been moved into the inventory.
Okay, that's good to know; saves me a lot of time in Designer.
My favourite would probably be a slightly rearranged version of your 2nd version @Dee It has a box for the descriptions and it has clear areas for the headline stats.
If the boxes at the top were made larger they could represent the key and familiar graphics that exist in previous versions and, obviously, to accommodate the need for text those graphics would need to be made larger.
Big Box is a nice idea, but I think you'd need to redesign some of the iconography. You need wide boxes for HP and Weapon Damage, since they need to be 5-7 characters wide at a minimum (at normal or large font size). The "dog collar" and "circle" do not work for hundreds of HP or damage in the 20s-30s range. Also, making the icons convey the stat would be useful.
You could give a little more room for labels/icons and shrink the Big Box a bit. That might force scrolling if you've got a ton of modifiers (but that's potentially true with almost any size box). The current mini boxes have ~3-4 lines visible, so a Big Box that's 50% of the real estate in the upper right would be 7-8 lines before scrolling is necessary.
Personally, whether the AC is displayed in shield, next to a shield, or in a box next to a text label makes no difference to me. But, then, I cut my CRPG teeth on games that didn't have those kind of icons for stats (Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Pools of Radiance), so maybe it's more important to those who played BG1 first.
I too think the big box layout is a good direction to go in, and I have the idea to incorporate mouse-overs to make it easier to select the information to be displayed. Here's how I'm imagining it:
- If you have an equipable item selected (picked up), and you have item comparisons on, it displays the name and comparison information of that item - Else, if you have any item selected, it displays the name of that item - Else, if you currently hover your mouse over a stat or an item, it displays the stat breakdown or the item's name - Else, if you have selected (clicked) any of the stats since last opening the inventory, it displays stat breakdowns for the stat you selected last - Else, it's empty
Also, when it displays an item name, it might be a good idea to center the text both horizontally and vertically to make it look prominent. The stat breakdowns would probably look best aligned to the top left.
@Adul that's an interesting idea. And I think I may have found a possible middle-ground solution for the rest of it (sort of). Here it is:
So this is basically Four Square, smashed together with Big Box. I call it One Square.
What it does is group the stats on the left side of the box like in Four Square, but with an added box for Attacks Per Round. Then the big text box is one big scrolling container, grouped by headings. Each heading can be collapsed or expanded as needed, and you can click on a stat to collapse everything but that stat's information.
Assuming Item Comparison is an option you can turn on from the gameplay settings, that's all you need to know. If you turn on Item Comparison, though, it works a little differently: the text box then quickly itemizes the stats that change, like so:
The top picture is looking better to me. Can I assume the Armor Class, Hit Point, etc. numbers are set inside icons as in version 1.3? I like the scroll bar for the information on the right.
@Dee - I like the concept, but how will you make the left side of One Box work?
Look at the current SoD inventory:
The font is already reduced (compared to the font in the text boxes) in the HP, THAC0, and Damage icons. I don't see how you preserve the iconography, add labels, and smash a fifth box (APR) in there WITHOUT making the fonts smaller than they are.
The top picture is looking better to me. Can I assume the Armor Class, Hit Point, etc. numbers are set inside icons as in version 1.3? I like the scroll bar for the information on the right.
Comments
Here's the next mock-up. Again, it's...different. But it shows a different way of doing things:
I call this the "Big Box", because instead of four little boxes that always show the break-down of each stat, we just have one box that contains context-specific information.
That box could be used in a couple of different ways:
1. Click on a stat, and it shows you the break-down for that stat.
2. When you select an item, it shows you the item's description.
3. When you select an item, it shows you the comparison table.
Option 2 isn't ideal, because longer descriptions won't fit and when you're holding an item you can't drag the window. But it's something that's been pitched a few times in various places, so I'm listing it here for completeness.
Forgive the arrangement of the stats at the top there; assume that those would be placed more neatly in the final version.
In this mock design, the iconography remains tied to the numbers, which I know some people here were asking to be separated. Hopefully by splitting the Main and Off-Hand weapons, there's a bit more room for those numbers to breathe.
Normal Screen:
On clicking or mouseover one of the stats:
On picking up an item:
Your layout is a little nicer than mine but I certainly prefer the 2nd one.
First of all, 3x3 field for "Ground" is exactly the enlargement I've wanted.
Then, to be able to see all those AC, HP, THAC0 and damage with clear calculations is exatcly what I want from the inventory screen.
Also, I'm happy to see THAC0 and damage for off-hand weapon.
I understand that version is new if compared to the vanilla look, but all those clear numbers feel old-school. I don't agree it looks like so many of the current builds screens. It looks like a BG screen with clear data that I need.
I'm not a visual artist. I can't give you a mock-up with final art in it. All I can do is position the elements to represent where that final art will go. I can tell you what I'm imagining for those pieces, but any changes to these screens will require changes to the art.
If you don't trust us to make those art changes, then...I guess stick with v1.3? Everything here is going to require those changes you don't seem to trust us to make to your satisfaction. What exactly are you looking for?
Obviously we aren't making a game just for my friend but I think that summarising it all does help - and would certainly help new players.
The iconic feel is what we're aiming for, here. The first example, modeled after PnP character sheets, is a different approach. It may not be the right one. Take a look at the second proposal; it's closer to what you're familiar with, but still with some differences.
If you don't like something, try to tell us why. "It looks like a database" is helpful, and gives fuel to the conversation. "The current patches are a mess and I don't trust you to do it right" is profoundly unhelpful.
Discussing the colour or look of the symbol is discussing something that we can't impact. That's down to the art guys.
The problem with the current iconographs is that they are fixed size elements in a UI with scalable fonts, and they are too small to do the job. To show both weapon damage stats in one iconograph (as in v1.3), it needs to be big enough to fit at least 5 character across in two rows. The current iconograph is nowhere near big enough, so the font gets shrunk to fit the pre-rendered box (which can't use the whole interior width, since it's a circle).
The original interface worked with the stats inside iconographs because it was a fixed width interface. BG1 supported 640x480 resolution. BG2 added 800x600 support by drawing a border around a 640x480 interface. When you have that kind of pixel-level control of the interface, you can do stuff like make tight boxes around the stats. With a scalable interface, you need to make a more flexible design, one that accommodates varying font sizes. Also, the original games didn't show main-hand and off-hand weapon damage on the inventory screen, so they didn't have that part of the issue.
Also, Dee isn't suggesting using the actual IWD2 iconographs, but using a similar layout, i.e., an iconograph next to the box for the stat. So, you'd still have the iconographs (and they'd be related to the stat, e.g. maybe a heart for HP), but the display for the stat could better support scalable fonts.
This is just for reference's sake, to compare the previous mock designs with the release build without looking at the art:
It's worth bearing in mind that this layout, which I'm calling "Four Square" (for obvious reasons), is not from the original game; it's from the Enhanced Edition. I say that because a lot has been said about this being the "original design", as if we'd had these text blocks for the past two decades, and that's not the case.
So now we have three separate designs to work with. Three very different approaches to the same problem. Questions? Comments? Fashion concerns?
The first example, modeled after PnP character sheets, is a different approach.
Baldur’s Gate, the game, is not a PnP character sheet. I know you know this, I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing to draw inspiration from.
As you get rid of the little touches like the iconic artwork that the armor class numbers are set into in the older versions, you erode away more of the feel that went with the original games. Over time, as more and more of it gets left out, the whole thing starts to feel more cold, “data base” like.
It’s not any one single thing, but the accumulations of all of these small changes that is leaving this game feeling less and less like playing a Baldur’s Gate game. Perhaps great if you like to play solo runs or min-max stats, but not at all appealing if you want to get immersed in a role-playing game.
Does that make sense?
(Also worth noting: in the original games, only AC and Hit Points were shown on this screen, with no explanation. That's not to say that this is a sign that we can throw everything out the window, just pointing out another thing that is different with the Enhanced Edition versus the original versions.)
It's worth bearing in mind that this layout, which I'm calling "Four Square" (for obvious reasons), is not from the original game; it's from the Enhanced Edition. I say that because a lot has been said about this being the "original design", as if we'd had these text blocks for the past two decades, and that's not the case.
I am well aware of that.
At this point I can only say that your third mockup is better then the first two.
The current layout is great in that it displays modifiers as lines of text, so it only needs to display actual relevant information and can simply omit lines that are not relevant (like proficiency, some of the time). I like this mockup better, but it still hides information behind player action (this time a single click, which is, of course, better than the tooltip). Although I imagine when empty, the large textbox would look out of place, especially considering there's another textbox already on screen that's also usually empty. This one is still my favorite, although it's not too far ahead of the second, "big box" layout.
Question, though: Would it make any difference if the totals were still inside their icons like they are now? It doesn't solve the problem of the text being shrunk down, but it maintains the "numbers inside a shield" idea.
I’m not understanding the question.
The "Big Box" design lets you see all of those things when you want to see them, although I agree that requiring a click isn't ideal. The question is, do you prefer to click/tap, or scroll? Not everyone's going to have the same answer to that question--and the people who complained about the current version may be helped by the Big Box, while the people who like the current version may complain about the Big Box.
Meanwhile poor
@bengoshi@JuliusBorisov wants everything to be laid out like a character sheet, and he's not getting what he wants at all with these text box solutions.So...somebody pitch me something. Offer a solution and I'll try to mock it up. We have one solution that's essentially "leave it the way it is", and then two solutions that are departures from the current design. Is there a middle ground?
If the boxes at the top were made larger they could represent the key and familiar graphics that exist in previous versions and, obviously, to accommodate the need for text those graphics would need to be made larger.
Big Box is a nice idea, but I think you'd need to redesign some of the iconography. You need wide boxes for HP and Weapon Damage, since they need to be 5-7 characters wide at a minimum (at normal or large font size). The "dog collar" and "circle" do not work for hundreds of HP or damage in the 20s-30s range. Also, making the icons convey the stat would be useful.
You could give a little more room for labels/icons and shrink the Big Box a bit. That might force scrolling if you've got a ton of modifiers (but that's potentially true with almost any size box). The current mini boxes have ~3-4 lines visible, so a Big Box that's 50% of the real estate in the upper right would be 7-8 lines before scrolling is necessary.
Personally, whether the AC is displayed in shield, next to a shield, or in a box next to a text label makes no difference to me. But, then, I cut my CRPG teeth on games that didn't have those kind of icons for stats (Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Pools of Radiance), so maybe it's more important to those who played BG1 first.
- If you have an equipable item selected (picked up), and you have item comparisons on, it displays the name and comparison information of that item
- Else, if you have any item selected, it displays the name of that item
- Else, if you currently hover your mouse over a stat or an item, it displays the stat breakdown or the item's name
- Else, if you have selected (clicked) any of the stats since last opening the inventory, it displays stat breakdowns for the stat you selected last
- Else, it's empty
Also, when it displays an item name, it might be a good idea to center the text both horizontally and vertically to make it look prominent. The stat breakdowns would probably look best aligned to the top left.
So this is basically Four Square, smashed together with Big Box. I call it One Square.
What it does is group the stats on the left side of the box like in Four Square, but with an added box for Attacks Per Round. Then the big text box is one big scrolling container, grouped by headings. Each heading can be collapsed or expanded as needed, and you can click on a stat to collapse everything but that stat's information.
Assuming Item Comparison is an option you can turn on from the gameplay settings, that's all you need to know. If you turn on Item Comparison, though, it works a little differently: the text box then quickly itemizes the stats that change, like so:
Look at the current SoD inventory:
The font is already reduced (compared to the font in the text boxes) in the HP, THAC0, and Damage icons. I don't see how you preserve the iconography, add labels, and smash a fifth box (APR) in there WITHOUT making the fonts smaller than they are.