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Elder Scrolls : The dumbing down

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  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @SorcererV1ct0r "Console players aren't a big fan of RPG's. And most console RPG's aren't depth and complex RPG's like Baldur's Gate, NWN1, Icewind dale, arcanum, vtmb, etc. Also, the genres strategy and rpg are clearly the most "dumbed down" genres(and both are much more popular on pc's)"

    I call bullcrap. I started on consoles and RPGs are my favorite genre. Most console RPGs have tons of depth.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    ThacoBell said:


    I call bullcrap. I started on consoles and RPGs are my favorite genre. Most console RPGs have tons of depth.

    Please, name good console RPG's like vtmb, nwn1 and other who i've mentioned.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited August 2018
    Well, jRPG's aren't exactly being dumbed down(at least i saw no complain from jRPG fans except FF 13) like for example Fallout, Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age.

    For that list, i only have played Pokemon(and long time ago), apparently Pokemon have more element types, megaevolutions, more in depth combat, tons of new Pokemons but if you look to Elder Scrolls, no more, Levitation, Jump spell, no more faction reputation, quests who locks another quest(aka steal a diamond vs protect), requirements to faction level up, spell crafting, the alchemy and enchanting system was dumbed down, you can't fail at casting complex spells, etc, etc, etc; they remove even the most common medieval battlefield weapon(spears) and halberds and made legendary god-like items almost worthless.

    From Daggerfall to Morrowind, they removed some things mainly on custom classes, but at least added conjuration, crossbows and polearms and improved on story telling.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It think the way consoles and PCs are used affects the type of games that are played on them.

    Consoles:
    used in communal space (living room)
    competes for screen time with TV/film
    user sits a long way from a large screen

    PC:
    used in solitary space (office/bedroom)
    dedicated screen
    user sits close to a small screen


    This naturally leads to the PC being more suited to games that require long periods of intense concentration.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,979
    O_Bruce said:

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
    @O_Bruce don't waste your breathe, these people have it in their minds that id something isn't the way they like it than it isn't X. It's like arguing with a weebo that no matter how much mental gymnastics they try to go through, a anime is still a cartoon.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    O_Bruce said:

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
    What if he cites me saying it? ;)
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    O_Bruce said:

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
    Theres no roleplaying involved. You're always a human teenager with silly clothes who must save the world.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    That's literally the plot of Fallout 1 and 2
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    scriver said:

    That's literally the plot of Fallout 1 and 2

    Except Fallout has character creation and choices.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    we obviously can't have this debate with out people yelling at eachother. so lets not start this again and lock another thred.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235

    O_Bruce said:

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
    Theres no roleplaying involved. You're always a human teenager with silly clothes who must save the world.

    I mean, that IS a role that you play. So yes, its roleplaying. Also, way to overgeneralize.

    "Except Fallout has character creation and choices."

    So do many JRPGs. These arguments really only work if you ignore half of the entire genre.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790

    O_Bruce said:

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
    Theres no roleplaying involved. You're always a human teenager with silly clothes who must save the world.

    "Because I say so" further seasoned with oversimplification to easily bash jrpgs. There is nothing more to your post. No facts. No definition of role-playing game. No coherent and internally consistent definition of role playing game.

    I have to agree with @DragonKing . Waste of breath.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    O_Bruce said:

    O_Bruce said:

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
    Theres no roleplaying involved. You're always a human teenager with silly clothes who must save the world.

    "Because I say so" further seasoned with oversimplification to easily bash jrpgs. There is nothing more to your post. No facts. No definition of role-playing game. No coherent and internally consistent definition of role playing game.

    I have to agree with @DragonKing . Waste of breath.
    I'm really starting to hate you, you know that?
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    ThacoBell said:

    O_Bruce said:

    ThacoBell said:

    The entire Final Fantasy series, Dragon Warrior, Everything by Quintet, Chrono Trigger, Legend of Dragoon, Chrono Cross, Earhtbound, Phantasy Star series, The Shining Series, the Tales series, and Radiant Historia, Pokemon, I could go on for HOURS and list all of the REALLY GOOD RPGs that have come out for consoles. There are at least hundreds of great titles.

    Jrpgs are not really rpgs.
    Citation needed. "I say so" doesn't count as one.
    Theres no roleplaying involved. You're always a human teenager with silly clothes who must save the world.

    I mean, that IS a role that you play. So yes, its roleplaying. Also, way to overgeneralize.

    "Except Fallout has character creation and choices."

    So do many JRPGs. These arguments really only work if you ignore half of the entire genre.
    Can you make a list of jrpgs with character creation (Dark Souls and Bloodborne nowistanding) please?
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @ShapiroKeatsDarkMage "Can you make a list of jrpgs with character creation (Dark Souls and Bloodborne nowistanding) please?"

    Why can't we list Dark souls and Bloodborne? They are JRPGs. Can't handle examples that prove you wrong? I'm gonna list them anyway, becuae these arbitrary restrictions are utter bull.

    Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls 2, Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne, FInal Fantasy, Final Fantasy 2, Final Fantasy 3, FInal Fantasy 5, FInal Fantasy 7, FInal Fantasy 8, Dragon Warrior 3, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fanatasy Tactics Advance. This is just off the top of my head.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    ThacoBell said:

    @ShapiroKeatsDarkMage "Can you make a list of jrpgs with character creation (Dark Souls and Bloodborne nowistanding) please?"

    Why can't we list Dark souls and Bloodborne? They are JRPGs. Can't handle examples that prove you wrong? I'm gonna list them anyway, becuae these arbitrary restrictions are utter bull.

    Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls 2, Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne, FInal Fantasy, Final Fantasy 2, Final Fantasy 3, FInal Fantasy 5, FInal Fantasy 7, FInal Fantasy 8, Dragon Warrior 3, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fanatasy Tactics Advance. This is just off the top of my head.

    Ff7 and ff8 have Cloud and Squall as the main character.

    And i omitted Dark Souls because i'm already familiar with It.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    and final fantasy 5 has barts as the main character and you can customize his abilities with job classes.

    same with ff 7 and 8 with materia and the junction system.

    heck ff5 has a deeper job system then 3's due to sub classes.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428

    and final fantasy 5 has barts as the main character and you can customize his abilities with job classes.

    same with ff 7 and 8 with materia and the junction system.

    heck ff5 has a deeper job system then 3's due to sub classes.

    I remember the Junction system to be quite frustrating to get into. I must Say i really didn't care for Squall and Rinoa, or the weird cyberpunk mixed with magic style of the setting. Though Spoony's review of FF8 was pretty good.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited August 2018
    Honestly, i think that is better to NOT discuss if jRPG's(talking as a subgenre) here.

    People get offended a lot and i was forced to ask the moderation to remove my old thread because will go in a bad way, people get easily ofended an some times confuse "easier" with "possible", confuse "change the gameplay" to "change the story" and get easily ofended, even when you try to be educated as possible.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    Yeah was going to say we're here to trash on The Elder Scrolls, not JRPGs!

    Speaking of which, I've really wanted to play a TES game but I can't decide which >_>
  • dTddTd Member Posts: 182
    I suggest Skyrim :)
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    Yeah I've put a billion hours into Morrowind so my options are Arena, Daggerfall, Oblivion, and Skyrim.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Vallmyr said:

    Yeah was going to say we're here to trash on The Elder Scrolls, not JRPGs!

    Speaking of which, I've really wanted to play a TES game but I can't decide which >_>

    IMHO : Morrowind > Daggerfall > Arena > Skyrim > Oblivion

    Yes, Skyrim is more streamlined than oblivion, but the way that "level scaling" works on Oblivion means that enemies will have an insane maount of HP at higher levels and it ruins the high level gameplay. I tried to find a "no scaling mod" but it crashes.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @SorcererV1ct0r: There should be several mods that de-level the game. If one doesn't work, you may be able to get another to work for you. I prefer Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, which also rebalances various other parts of the game.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    I keep trying Daggerfall but never get far before giving up >_<
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I have always viewed JRPGs as a genre rather than a technical point about WHERE the game was made. For instance, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI to me are what I would think of when the term JRPG comes to mind. Though Dark Souls and Bloodborne are MADE in Japan, they have a decidedly Western aesthetic to them in terms of their fantasy universe. To me, a JRPG is turn-based party combat that takes place on a separate screen from the overworld map, has alot of random encounters, and a certain cutesy cartoonish graphic-style.
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,979


    People get offended a lot and i was forced to ask the moderation to remove my old thread because will go in a bad way, people get easily ofended

    Yes because misrepresenting what someone said is getting offended.

    But who's more easily offended, the person who challenges what the other person said or the person who instead of stand by what they said, runs from it?

This discussion has been closed.