What you are given in Skyrim is skill trees instead of the ability to level up in a larger variety of categories. Alot of people don't like skill trees in general. This is a trend that started with Diablo 2, and went mainstream with World of Warcraft. They aren't inherently bad, and Skyrim's are way better than most. If one wants a bad version of skill trees, check out Sword Coast Legends.
I think Fallout 4’s is horrible too. The level restrictions makes creating the character you want to develop much harder and convoluted. The choices are pretty much laid out for the player with building and thieving skills unlocking one per level.
Really, the "dumbing down" of Skyrim is overstated. You are still actively leveling almost as many skills as in the previous two games. Sure they eliminated Acrobatics and and Athletics
As much as I like heavily modded Skyrim I couldn't see things more differently, the dumbing down and streamlining is painful. No more monk builds (unarmed and unarmored), levitation, spears or halberds, staves as a weapon, throwing stars, sanctuary, blind, and don't even get me started on the factions, or the lack of stats. It bothers me especially because most of these were my favorite ways to build characters.
And the perk system doesn't end up providing anything interesting, especially for magic skills. Mods fix that though.
It's hard to compare anything to Morrowind, which allows you to do pretty much anything just based on the spell-maker and enchanting mechanics alone, nevermind the variety of weapons. There is so much going on mechanically in Morrowind that it still kind of blows my mind. However, the real watering down came with Oblivion, which is also when they abandoned the idea of simulated dice rolls.
The Houses in Morrowind (assuming you don't glitch them) would require three separate plays to finish on their own. People still seem to like what is going on with the factions in Oblivion, but seem to have soured on them in Skyrim. The lack of actual stats in Skyrim is a legit problem. I don't think you can totally justify having only 3 stats to level up, but in the end it doesn't necessarily ruin things for me. What I find most interesting is the Legendary mode (not just the difficulty) that was added that let's you continue leveling up in perpetuity by taking a skill to Legendary level, which is (in many ways) like Dual-Classing in Baldur's Gate. You become weak in a particular skill for a time again, but contribute mightily to your overall power.
Soooo steering away from the Geralt hate, do guys think Elder Scrolls 6 will finally start adding new stuff or do you think more skills/spells will be on the chopping block?
It's pretty much inevitable the dumbing down will continue. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a multiplayer mode has been shoe-horned on in the last minute, and that we are forced to play as a winy emo protagonist called Ger-ALT.
Beth games were never perfect, not even good ol' and nostalgic Morrowind. The greatest part of them were always their toolsets. Just like in the case of the Neverwinter Nights franchise.
But that's precicely also the reason why I am uneasy for any upcoming TES games: seeing as they more and more want to implement their Creation Club/paid mods thingy. And don't get me started at how they have stowed aways the Creation Kit of Skyrim Special Edition in their obnoxious Bethesda Launcher instead of making it readily available like in previous titles. Urgh!
I admired Morrowind, rather than actually liked it. Open World games simply can't hold my attention. I need a strong plot and quirky characters to sustain my interest. Morrowind did better than most, but I still never completed a playthrough.
I'm not a fan of Daggerfall. The graphics looked ugly, the world had shrunk from Arena, it was buggy, and the quests felt random and shallow.
Oblivion hits the right balance for me between Morrowind's nearly inscrutable system's (really, its basically required to get a third party to explain this crap, the game certainly won't) and Skyrim's simplification.
Never really cared for Cyrodiil, the Imperials, the Blades, or Knights of the Nine personally. Which made the majority of Oblivion's gameplay kind of, well... boring for me. Shivering Isles was the sole sliver of hope there. Truthfully, I only still keep playing TESIV for its Elsweyr mods.
I still need to play Oblivion >_> I know I said ages ago I was going to start but still haven't done as such.
I have a love-hate relationship with mods. Some I consider essential like the Bard's Life Mod in Morrowind and Become a Bard in Skyrim since that's my favorite archetype. HOWEVER, I hate troubleshooting mods especially if I spend 4 hours installing tons of graphical mods just for something to break and I'd have to start all over again. So I try to keep my mod-list to the minimum.
Though I do want to use the Elsweyr mod for Oblivion since I planned to play a Khajiit Cleric since if I recall there's no bard mod for Oblivion and custom race mods don't work well with the Character Creation Overhaul mod.
@Vallmyr - Don't bother. It's by far the worst of the TES games and just bland in every way. It's a complete waste of money unless you can get it for like 90% off or free.
What I find weird about Oblivion is how empty all the major cities feel, almost like 90% of the population has been raptured or something. Morrowind and Skyrim at least give the illusion bustling civilization.
I still need to play Oblivion >_> I know I said ages ago I was going to start but still haven't done as such.
I have a love-hate relationship with mods. Some I consider essential like the Bard's Life Mod in Morrowind and Become a Bard in Skyrim since that's my favorite archetype. HOWEVER, I hate troubleshooting mods especially if I spend 4 hours installing tons of graphical mods just for something to break and I'd have to start all over again. So I try to keep my mod-list to the minimum.
Though I do want to use the Elsweyr mod for Oblivion since I planned to play a Khajiit Cleric since if I recall there's no bard mod for Oblivion and custom race mods don't work well with the Character Creation Overhaul mod.
Don't listen to others. Try It and make your own opinions on it.
I agree that both Skyrim and Oblivion are considerably dumbed down in comparison to Morrowind, but I think attributes/skill systems are not the cause. I think the perk point add as much as you lose from not having attributes, and I like that you can finally have somewhat effective mages of races other than Breton or Altmer in Skyrim. Imagine all those poor Telvannis not getting a magicka multiplier bonus.
What dumbed it down was the cutting of spell effects (teleportation), spell making, enchanting options, the ability to mix more equipment and full voice acting. The Morrowind not plot relevant NPCs do not have much personality, but they have so much lore to offer. Besides, the in-game books from Morrowind and Daggerfall are still the best. They added almost none in Oblivion and just a few in Skyrim, but they were not up to par.
On the other hand, I am rather happy about some of the new features in Skyrim. NPC schedules and conversations are now in a good place after Oblivion introducing the concept. And some of the radiant event that are reactions to your behavior also work nicely.
Oblivioin is basically "let's take Rome and drop it in Africa. To me just the design of the world barely made that much sense.
But again Morrowind wasn't perfect either, the dice role system really made me hate it. IDC what my archery skill is, when I'm so close to some that of the creature inhales deep enough that he'll be implaled by the arrow there is no effing way I should even miss.
Also, having more things doesn't make a game better, I'd honestly rather have less fully developed out mechanics than multiple less defined and developed mechanics. This was my problem with Oblivion, majority of the mechanics like acrobatics just seemed pointless.
But they doesn't mean I agreed that they should've been taken out, quote the contrary. They should've been expanded on a lot more and I say this because my biggest annoyance with Skyrim was the dumbing down on the number of spells that were in the game and the little number of effects.
I always played a redguard mage who specialized in destruction/restoration/alteration/ enchanting and without mods I couldn't feel like I was a true walking reality warper near end game.
Oblivion was not drop Rome in Africa. Neither according to current lore nor gameplay. Sure, according to older lore the Imperial Province was supposed to be most jungle, but they retconned that, not only out of universe but also in lore (Talos changed it retroactively):
From Book 3 of the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes:
CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.
Oblivion was not drop Rome in Africa. Neither according to current lore nor gameplay. Sure, according to older lore the Imperial Province was supposed to be most jungle, but they retconned that, not only out of universe but also in lore (Talos changed it retroactively):
From Book 3 of the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes:
CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.
I used to be a jungle like you, but then I took a cop out to the knee
Oblivion was not drop Rome in Africa. Neither according to current lore nor gameplay. Sure, according to older lore the Imperial Province was supposed to be most jungle, but they retconned that, not only out of universe but also in lore (Talos changed it retroactively):
From Book 3 of the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes:
CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.
True, that. And it is for all intents and purposes just a lazy way of "lore-friendly" contradicting existing lore in favour for something else.
Just like that bloody and obnoxious Oblivion Levitation Act that banned any kind of levitation spells. After all, just because the Empire legally banned levitations every spellcaster has to follow suit. Even the necromancers, witches, daedra worshippers and other wizardry outlaws... right?
Ah well... maybe we will see the return of levitation spells in TES VI. Given that the trailer at E3 showed what looks like the coastline of High Rock.
Oblivion was not drop Rome in Africa. Neither according to current lore nor gameplay. Sure, according to older lore the Imperial Province was supposed to be most jungle, but they retconned that, not only out of universe but also in lore (Talos changed it retroactively):
From Book 3 of the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes:
CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.
It doesn't matter if it was retconned out I didn't claim that was it lorewise. But that game called the elder scrolls IV: Oblivion, now look closely because you missed one specific keyword that I'm about to repeat, "design" not lore and not game play, but design, was literally "take roam and put it in Africa. Which is what that open world was.
I just couldn't play Oblivion to completion. In between the broken level mechanics, dull world, lifeless cities, too much level scaling that takes all the excitement out of exploration, I just end up getting bored and moving onto something else. Shivering Isles seems to get praised alot though, maybe ill try to get through that.
The only good thing Oblivion did was allow unarmed builds to use block, imo.
The dice roll combat is one of the things that made me just give up on Morrowind. My earliest memory of Morrowind is when I jumped up on a big rock to get away from a bandit. And then I stood there, shooting arrows in his face from 3 feet away, without ever hitting him, until I either ran out of arrows or patience (can't remember which lasted longer).
And while I do like stats in games, I prefer the Skyrim approach to Oblivion's. Just because it was hard to find a good playstyle when you basically had to avoid using your major skills to actually get good stats when you leveled up.
The dice roll combat is one of the things that made me just give up on Morrowind. My earliest memory of Morrowind is when I jumped up on a big rock to get away from a bandit. And then I stood there, shooting arrows in his face from 3 feet away, without ever hitting him, until I either ran out of arrows or patience (can't remember which lasted longer).
And while I do like stats in games, I prefer the Skyrim approach to Oblivion's. Just because it was hard to find a good playstyle when you basically had to avoid using your major skills to actually get good stats when you leveled up.
Any time I start new cycle of Morrowind - since 2005 that is - I always swear to myself I will mind my major and minor skills - remembering what should be left out and taken in for optimal early CHAR stat level builder.
And always slip up, and always chuckle to myself, and quite love it.
I am not able to optimise Morrowind, and I think this lack of clinical, clean execution endears this title to me - besides the most open, ambitious world-writing in whole of TES lore.
You do handily remind me I should put Archery as a major skill next time because I really hate archery in any RPG for it being the kiss of death - maximise what you hate... and avoid quasi-random skills such as athletics...
I am sorry you are not able to enjoy this feature which I really do, because it makes Morrowind so versatile and never quite formulaic to me - but have you managed the difficulty slider?
I always gradually up the difficulty slider as I level up, and think that alchemy allows to bridge the gaps by being obnoxiously useful.
And that's why I think it isn't a versatile system at all. Because you don't just need meta-knowledge to optimize your character - you need it to not end up with a crap character that can't compete on higher levels.
I was a bit surprised when I first played Skyrim and realized that it didn't have stats besides the stamina/health/magicka. But I don't really mind it now, since Skyrim actually rewards me for playing the game the way I want to play it. That feels a lot more versatile to me.
Skyrim became a lot more interesting to me with perk mods. I use Path of Sorcery myself. Went through the game as an Illusionist, almost no combat ability to speak of. Could get everything from Trolls to Dwarven Centurions as allies through the Geas ability, approached mobs with a Frenzy delivered while in stealth, let them destroy themselves. An entertaining run to be sure.
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And the perk system doesn't end up providing anything interesting, especially for magic skills. Mods fix that though.
The Houses in Morrowind (assuming you don't glitch them) would require three separate plays to finish on their own. People still seem to like what is going on with the factions in Oblivion, but seem to have soured on them in Skyrim. The lack of actual stats in Skyrim is a legit problem. I don't think you can totally justify having only 3 stats to level up, but in the end it doesn't necessarily ruin things for me. What I find most interesting is the Legendary mode (not just the difficulty) that was added that let's you continue leveling up in perpetuity by taking a skill to Legendary level, which is (in many ways) like Dual-Classing in Baldur's Gate. You become weak in a particular skill for a time again, but contribute mightily to your overall power.
and no new vegas does not count thats an obsidian game.
It's going to be a loss for me because i really like the lore and the daedric mythology.
But that's precicely also the reason why I am uneasy for any upcoming TES games: seeing as they more and more want to implement their Creation Club/paid mods thingy. And don't get me started at how they have stowed aways the Creation Kit of Skyrim Special Edition in their obnoxious Bethesda Launcher instead of making it readily available like in previous titles. Urgh!
I'm not a fan of Daggerfall. The graphics looked ugly, the world had shrunk from Arena, it was buggy, and the quests felt random and shallow.
I really preferred Ultima Underworld.
It had nicer scenery, which is what you want in a hiking simulator.
Truthfully, I only still keep playing TESIV for its Elsweyr mods.
I have a love-hate relationship with mods. Some I consider essential like the Bard's Life Mod in Morrowind and Become a Bard in Skyrim since that's my favorite archetype. HOWEVER, I hate troubleshooting mods especially if I spend 4 hours installing tons of graphical mods just for something to break and I'd have to start all over again. So I try to keep my mod-list to the minimum.
Though I do want to use the Elsweyr mod for Oblivion since I planned to play a Khajiit Cleric since if I recall there's no bard mod for Oblivion and custom race mods don't work well with the Character Creation Overhaul mod.
What dumbed it down was the cutting of spell effects (teleportation), spell making, enchanting options, the ability to mix more equipment and full voice acting. The Morrowind not plot relevant NPCs do not have much personality, but they have so much lore to offer. Besides, the in-game books from Morrowind and Daggerfall are still the best. They added almost none in Oblivion and just a few in Skyrim, but they were not up to par.
On the other hand, I am rather happy about some of the new features in Skyrim. NPC schedules and conversations are now in a good place after Oblivion introducing the concept. And some of the radiant event that are reactions to your behavior also work nicely.
But again Morrowind wasn't perfect either, the dice role system really made me hate it. IDC what my archery skill is, when I'm so close to some that of the creature inhales deep enough that he'll be implaled by the arrow there is no effing way I should even miss.
Also, having more things doesn't make a game better, I'd honestly rather have less fully developed out mechanics than multiple less defined and developed mechanics. This was my problem with Oblivion, majority of the mechanics like acrobatics just seemed pointless.
But they doesn't mean I agreed that they should've been taken out, quote the contrary. They should've been expanded on a lot more and I say this because my biggest annoyance with Skyrim was the dumbing down on the number of spells that were in the game and the little number of effects.
I always played a redguard mage who specialized in destruction/restoration/alteration/ enchanting and without mods I couldn't feel like I was a true walking reality warper near end game.
Than again, I maybe just spoiled by mod lmao.
From Book 3 of the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes:
And it is for all intents and purposes just a lazy way of "lore-friendly" contradicting existing lore in favour for something else.
Just like that bloody and obnoxious Oblivion Levitation Act that banned any kind of levitation spells. After all, just because the Empire legally banned levitations every spellcaster has to follow suit. Even the necromancers, witches, daedra worshippers and other wizardry outlaws... right?
Ah well... maybe we will see the return of levitation spells in TES VI. Given that the trailer at E3 showed what looks like the coastline of High Rock.
The only good thing Oblivion did was allow unarmed builds to use block, imo.
And while I do like stats in games, I prefer the Skyrim approach to Oblivion's. Just because it was hard to find a good playstyle when you basically had to avoid using your major skills to actually get good stats when you leveled up.
And always slip up, and always chuckle to myself, and quite love it.
I am not able to optimise Morrowind, and I think this lack of clinical, clean execution endears this title to me - besides the most open, ambitious world-writing in whole of TES lore.
You do handily remind me I should put Archery as a major skill next time because I really hate archery in any RPG for it being the kiss of death - maximise what you hate... and avoid quasi-random skills such as athletics...
I am sorry you are not able to enjoy this feature which I really do, because it makes Morrowind so versatile and never quite formulaic to me - but have you managed the difficulty slider?
I always gradually up the difficulty slider as I level up, and think that alchemy allows to bridge the gaps by being obnoxiously useful.
I was a bit surprised when I first played Skyrim and realized that it didn't have stats besides the stamina/health/magicka. But I don't really mind it now, since Skyrim actually rewards me for playing the game the way I want to play it. That feels a lot more versatile to me.