Staples You Never Use

Abi_Dalzim

So, basically the idea here is to discuss the inverse of underrated gems. What options does everybody seem to rave about using and say are the best, that you never seem to use yourself? This doesn't mean that you think these options are bad or even overrated, necessarily, you just never have time for them.

Speaking for myself, it's been ages since I've actually bothered with a fighter-mage at all, and I've never bothered with the dreaded Kensage, although I have done Berserker-mage a couple times in the past. It's not that I think it's a bad way to go; I do, in fact, think they're quite powerful, but it just doesn't capture my imagination much, I guess. I also don't use blades, well, ever, really, primarily because I don't find them very bard-like, so I tend to use Skalds more, or just the vanilla bard when I play Icewind Dale.

So, what are your thoughts, guys?

deltago

Two-handed swords.

Minsc dual wields axes if I have him.

My Paladins always sword and board and Keldorn is usually dropped back at home before I get Carsomyr.

If I am two-handing, I usually go halberd using Dragon Bane & Breath and Wave.

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lefreut

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Abi_Dalzim

I'll admit, I only recently used the Dragon's Breath halberd on a recent run, and was surprised at how effective it was, so I think I'll be using that one again sooner rather than later.

Gallowglass

I can't think of any staples which I never use at all, but there are some common approaches which I reckon I use significantly less than a lot of players.

For example, Time Stop. I get the impression that many players use it constantly once they get to the point where their Mage(s) can do so, whereas in a complete run I'll typically cast Time Stop just a couple of times, and I think I may once have finished without ever using it at all. Not because I've ever consciously refrained from using Time Stop, but simply because I rarely find myself in a situation where I feel it's the most urgent spell to cast next ... and then the battle is usually over before I get around to using Time Stop.

There are things which I never do, but I'm not sure whether they qualify as staples because I'm not sure that others use them much either.

For example, Disintegrate. (Do other people use it much?) In all my runs over all these years, I don't think I've yet cast it even once. Why not? Because it destroys the loot as well as the enemy, so there's always something else I prefer to have my Mage(s) memorise. For the same reason, I don't think I've ever petrified an enemy with Flesh to Stone, nor exiled an enemy with Imprisonment. (Yes, I know you can release the enemy after either of the latter and get the xp twice, but that's too cheesy for my taste.)

ThacoBell

I NEVER dual class, only use about 10% of all the arcane spells, never run a pure cleric in my parties (ran ranger cleric once).

Sleven

Dual-classes just aren't as strong as their multiclass counterparts, yet everyone seems to rave about them and their supposed "power". I almost never play them.

Some other things I tend not to do:

I've said as much in the unpopular opinion thread, but I also agree with deltago about two-handed weapons. There are very few circumstances where you want to use two-handed weapons, and most of them don't involve being an APR progressing class until you have the Whirlwind Attack HLA. Not to mention the fact that, with all the buffing items available in the game you can easily get 10 APR without a mage in the party supplying Improved Haste. Therefore it might be pertinent to mention that I tend to not take Improved Haste on my party Mages.

I also never understood why people raved about Warhammers on Clerics. They have the best Str buffs in the game. They don't need, and can't make as good a use of, a powerful main-hand item like Crom Faeyr when compared to Fighter classes.

I also use a party Mage as the tank--or Cleric if he/she is running low on spells. Never a fighter.

JumboWheat01

I too have never done the Fighter/Mage or its various dual-class variants, it's the class purist in me. I've also never made a Blade. I prefer my bards more in a supportive role.

I've also never made a Conjurer. My mages so far have been Illusionists, Enchanters and a Diviner. Still haven't made a Transmuter yet, despite my love of the specialization.

TheArtisan

I don't agree that all dual-classes are bad, but oh god people need to stop preaching the mightiness of the overrated kensage and swashmage. The only duals I find worth using are swashbuckler/cleric, kensai/thief, wizard slayer/thief, kensai/druid, and... priest of Lathander/mage. I actually really love that last one.

The fighter/druid dual is the only dual I'd argue to be straight up better than its multi-class equivalent, and even then it gives up the rather powerful fighter HLAs for not being crippled in casting.

Erm, anyways... can't say I care much for berserkers. I just find barbarians to be more useful overall.

Abi_Dalzim

@Sleven Interesting points there. I haven't dual-classed much in a while, but I understand the premise, especially for dual-classes into spellcasters, the idea is to get your caster level as high as possible early, which is a rationale, at least. As for weapon choice, I definitely agree with you that Crom Faeyr is a waste on a Cleric, although my main concern is less their buffs and more that a single class only has 1 APR to make use of it, which makes it seem wasteful to me. Certainly, in BG1 I prioritize warhammers because you can get Ashideena early, which is reason enough in that game.

As for casters as tanks, I do that when the fighter can't handle the bad guys in front of me, but otherwise, I'm kind of hyperconservative with spells, which is why I've actually been transitioning away from casters entirely and more towards fighters and thieves, whose resources aren't as limited by rests.

@JumboWheat01 I never use Conjurers either. Actually, people who follow my posts will know that I've been making the case for Diviners as the best mage kit if you want to lose as few good spells as possible (while also not risking wild magic).

@Artemius_I Interesting. I just finished a cleric/mage run (with Aerie also in tow, for that matter), so I don't think I'll do it again for a bit, but it occured to me that Priest of Helm/Mage would be better, since their Sword power counters the APR problem that non-fighters have. Lathander has the boon, but that's only 2 APR instead of 3 for the sword, so what else do you think that offers?

TheArtisan

@Abi_Dalzim Seeking Sword is horrible for a cleric/mage because it disables all of your casting, including your wizard spells. I've tried it, it's not fun. You need someone else around that can dispel the weapon for you at all times and that has the obvious side effect of destroying your beneficial buffs at the same time. Add that on top of the fact that you're forced to use the sword itself which is a 2d4 weapon with no damage bonus as opposed to Boon of Lathander giving you the freedom to wield whatever you want, and I consider the minor tradeoff in damage to be completely not worth it.

AdaJ

I actually prefer Berserkers to Barbarians, funnily enough. Heavier armour, better weapon profficiencies, and a rage with all of the benefits that remain useful the entire series (no point getting +4 Str when your Str is already 25...).

elminster

I wouldn't say "never" but I rarely use triggers and continguencies. I might use these if I'm fighting really powerful enemies, but most of the time I never have one active. I don't play with SCS or anything, so people will no doubt play differently than I do

Abi_Dalzim

AdaJ said:

I actually prefer Berserkers to Barbarians, funnily enough. Heavier armour, better weapon profficiencies, and a rage with all of the benefits that remain useful the entire series (no point getting +4 Str when your Str is already 25...).

I don't get too worked up over those details when comparing the two. My main concern when I weigh the two classes is that, yeah, Berserker can be dual-classed. I probably do need to go do a Barbarian run at some point, since it's usually something I save for Icewind Dale.

Sleven

Artemius_I said:

I don't agree that all dual-classes are bad,

I didn't say dual-classes were bad, just that they're not as good as their multiclass counterparts. Hell, I consider Anomen leagues above Viconia just because of his 7 Fighter levels.

Artemius_I said:

The fighter/druid dual is the only dual I'd argue to be straight up better than its multi-class equivalent, and even then it gives up the rather powerful fighter HLAs for not being crippled in casting.

It surprises me that you specifically pointed out the Fighter->Druid dual as being better than its multiclass counterpart. Once a Druid hits level 15 they don't really have much to gain in terms of spellcasting. Also, their XP table is so skewed that you really don't even gain that many more caster levels with the dual. In my opinion Fighter/Druids are the multiclass poster child.

Abi_Dalzim said:

@Sleven Interesting points there. I haven't dual-classed much in a while, but I understand the premise, especially for dual-classes into spellcasters, the idea is to get your caster level as high as possible early, which is a rationale, at least.

I would ask those people why they place so much emphasis on high caster levels. Especially when it comes at the expensive of a second class that drastically increases the ways in which they can solve encounters. Most encounters are over by the time spells start to wear off anyways. And as a mage, once you get your first 9th level spell you effectively have unlimited spells per day.

Every multiclass' parts compliment the sum of its whole beautifully. I think people just get it stuck in their heads that they have to play as one of the two (or three) classes they've chosen, or switch between styles, all the while they've forgotten that they have their own style by virtue of blending the classes together. This is why I highly recommend people try solo playthroughs. It really forces you to discover what a class (or class combination) has to offer.

Abi_Dalzim said:

As for weapon choice, I definitely agree with you that Crom Faeyr is a waste on a Cleric, although my main concern is less their buffs and more that a single class only has 1 APR to make use of it, which makes it seem wasteful to me.

Agreed. That, coupled with the fact that Clerics can't use speed weapons, is what I was referring to when I wrote, "and can't make as good a use of."

Abi_Dalzim said:

As for casters as tanks, I do that when the fighter can't handle the bad guys in front of me, but otherwise, I'm kind of hyperconservative with spells, which is why I've actually been transitioning away from casters entirely and more towards fighters and thieves, whose resources aren't as limited by rests.

I find most encounters can be resolved by one or two spells that completely shut down the opposition. In these instances no one is tanking because there is no need for them to. When you really need to tank (especially on higher difficulties) it's too important to be taking no damage at all (particularly in no-reload runs) which is something Fighters can't do.

I also got over the idea that I couldn't rest when I wanted to a long time ago, which really freed up casters for me.

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To add another "staple I never use" to the list: healing spells. With all the rings, rods, potions, swords, etc. in the game that provide recovery, there's really no need to memorize any healing spells at all. I also consider it a failure on my part if anyone suffers significant damage during a fight. It means I wasn't doing something right. I even champion this idea in PnP.

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lroumen

Let's see...
For vanilla: spell immunity, spell shield, pfmw, mantle spells, hlas and hla spells. Simulacra, clerics, paladins. All the best advocated duals and multis. I think I am kind of boring in vanilla games.

Abi_Dalzim

Oh, right, I don't make much use of Simulacrum, either. No fancy explanation there, it's just the cheese factor. Of course, I do like Project Image, so I'm not exactly consistent here.

lroumen

I mean all of them, even mislead . For vanilla there is really no need. Kind of the massive amount of mage spell slots you get. I never run out of spells...

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mashedtaters

Arcane magic in general.

I always have a mage or two, but I definitely underuse them in favor of ranged attackers and divine magic. I usually reserve them for area damage spells, like fireball or cloudkill, or dispelling, like the absolutely necessary breach, but I get along fine with cleric buffing/debuffing and straight up combat.

OlvynChuru

I never use Project Image (but I cheese the hell out of Simulacrum).

HoopleDoople

1. I usually don't use any of the weapons that grant extra attacks. I find them to be both overpowered and dull compared to other options. I do consider Tuigan's Bow to be acceptable as it has a lot more weaknesses, but I still usually prefer using Tansheron's Bow (and eventually the Short Bow of Gesen) over it.

2. I avoid using consumables, particularly wands, scrolls, and the more powerful potions. I try to stick just to healing potions with maybe some antidotes and potions of invisibility on hand for emergencies. Particularly in BG2 if you have to rely on these crutches to win a battle you probably should reevaluate your strategy or come back later with more experience.

3. Dual-classing is too annoying for me to bother with most of the time.

4. Mislead and Project Image are not allowed in my runs and I'm careful not to overly abuse Simulacrum or Vhailor's Helm.

5. Time Stop and Improved Alacrity are tools I only utilize if I have to (and I almost never combine the 2). I have way more fun with Summon Planetar, Energy Blades, and Dragon's Breath anyway.

Sleven

subtledoctor said:

I think the point is, because of the inane Druid XP table, the dual-class Druid reaches level 15 three million XP faster than the multi. That is a big difference - way more advantageous for the dual in this case, vs. dualled clerics or mages.

It sounds like a good case for single and dual Druids when you look at the numbers out of context. Unfortunately, their xp table really only gives them two limited time instances to outshine the multi as a Druid. The first is at the end of BG1 and the second is at the end of Shadows of Amn. Once you hit the beginning of Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal you're gaining xp at such drastically increased rates that the multi quickly catches up in both instances, and gets to actually stay relevant druid-wise for most of their respective games.

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Based on the last ~7 posts it sounds like there's a lot of hate for using duplication spells. Why? It's not like these spells matter in a game where you can rest almost whenever you want. Can't think of a fight where using a project image to cast another set of my spells or quickslot items first would have actually mattered. Even with mods like Ascension and SCS turned all the way up. Simulacrum? Maybe if it was a fighter or thief duo/triple. Even then, not necessary. Bottom line: the spells and abilities you're duplicating are what's strong, not the unnecessary ability to cast them the Nth time.

lroumen

I know they can be really good (infinite spells for instance), but when I look at them i generally say, nah... I need this *other* super spell.

Grond0

I don't allow the use of any potions or other items with a healing function - I do though allow regeneration. I also don't allow antidotes - which has proved costly on many occasions given that I normally play solo .

Gallenger

Back when we played as kids we house-rule banned triggers/contingencies and any beneficial polymorph spell - mainly because of a lot of shenanigans. I still feel really weird using them even in a completely different setting so I rarely use them.

semiticgoddess

I tend to avoid certain conventionally powerful builds. I consider a Berserker(9)->Mage to be the optimal build for the BG saga, but it never struck me as interesting. Kensai/Mages, Skalds, Berserker/Clerics, Fighter/Cleric and Fighter/Mage multiclasses, and Wizard Slayer/Thieves seem too standard for me.

The one conventionally powerful build I like is a Shadowdancer/Mage, simply because it's the perfect choice for a no-reload Charname. It's not as strong as other builds, but it has the best escape options at every stage of the game.

SirBatince

paladins using two handed swords is the most generic overdone thing in the game.

weapons like one handed axes and staves and morningstars are way more unusual and interesting! spice it up further by using single weapon style (dat crit bonus)

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