While the content of the expansion generally met my expectations (though the large battles gave my system too much slowdown), I was disappointed by its linearity. One of the hallmarks of this franchise for me, especially once modders got to work but even in vanilla, has been to allow players to explore and discover content relatively freely. I understand that modern design wouldn't have given us inefficient decisions like the strongholds, but to be honest I'm not really looking forward to replaying SoD for now because there were not enough decision points for player-driven narrative to develop.
I think the reason some people, "want Mizi fleshed out" is because sometimes when you read things, and especially when you hear people talk (their delivery, their tone) there's a hidden message. "Ask me more." Some folks have what I call and emotion detector that picks up on these things.
It doesn't matter who wrote Mizi, I felt a voice that said, "This NPC means more." Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. I don't think it's mandatory that she be more involved, but maybe the writer had more to say. I wanted to be emotionally available to appreciate that message if it ever came along.
They way we were introduced to Mizi may not have been delivered the way it was intended. But that writer unlocked something deep within me that made a connection. Intended or not, that is powerful.
@shawne Even though I think our core beliefs are the same and that I agree with many things you've written in this thread I think you perhaps let your frustration rise a bit too high in your post in reply to mine. My post was specifically for @Teo_live since he represents a viewpoint that I've seen many times before but never got a reply to, one I would really want to have.
@Enilwyn, I think it's great that you felt that way about the character. I have too for many characters I've encountered in the saga. But, with that said, feeling what you feel and demanding a character to be fleshed out to not stay a token are two different things. I fully respect your views, but it's not really a reply to my question. (Edit: I don't mean that you demand it, but many others have.)
And for the record, I love the cleric in question's voice actor and wouldn't mind a more fleshed out character, but I would prefer if it were for the right reasons. I would also like Lucky Aello/Thalantyr/Silence the silent shopkeeper to be more fleshed out.
"But no one is denying you that right; the point is, your credibility is undermined by the actions of those review-bombers, with whom you voluntarily associate. That association is fine; but maybe have a frank conversation with them about how they made you appear to the rest of the world, rather than (or in addition to!) criticizing the rest of the world for how it receives you. If you get reactions from people who see you as a troll, it's because your arguments align with those of actual trolls. You may cry that it's unfair, but it's important that you see yourself in the context of the situation, not in a vacuum. Because you never actually interact with people in a vacuum."
Exactly the same can be said of the introduction of Mizhena, it did not happen in a vacuum. That neither makes it good or bad, but it should also be acknowledged.
@shawne Even though I think our core beliefs are the same and that I agree with many things you've written in this thread I think you perhaps let your frustration rise a bit too high in your post in reply to mine. My post was specifically for @Teo_live since he represents a viewpoint that I've seen many times before but never got a reply to, one I would really want to have.
That's precisely what I'm trying to tell you, though: the reason you've never gotten a reply is because there isn't one. You're assuming there's some valid, justifiable, well-thought-out rationale at the bottom of all this, and that somehow it just never manifested in the nine months since SoD launched. This person is going to do what every other GamerGater troll has done since April: ignore salient points, gloss over facts that contradict their false narrative, complain that they're being bullied, and run the clock down until they vocalize an explicit slur that get them banned.
If I'm frustrated, it's because this exact scenario has already played itself out a dozen times (seriously, run a search on the forum for Mizhena threads, see for yourself), and all the moderators do is call for neutrality as if there's a middle ground here and exhort people to buy Beamdog games. They'll be policing Mizhena threads from now to doomsday because of it.
Just want to post support for @shawne who, while being somewhat blunt and skirting moderators' wrath, writes passionately to confront what he finds to be unjust. So many people are so damn tired of discussing this ridiculous fake "controversy" and he ends up here getting attacked from multiple sides. It's not very pleasant, so good job for persisting.
Much appreciated. I wish I could say I'm coming up with original arguments each time, but at this point I could set the exact beats of the conversation to clockwork.
Exactly the same can be said of the introduction of Mizhena, it did not happen in a vacuum. That neither makes it good or bad, but it should also be acknowledged.
Sorry, could be the hangover but I don't understand what your point is. Can you elaborate?
While I struggle to understand how anyone could take offence at Mizhena's appearance in the game per se, as UnderstandMouseMagic said there were other things going on. Press comments and interviews done by Beamdog staff made it clear they felt the game supported a specific agenda - even though I don't think that accurately reflects what's in the game itself. There was also the (now deleted) reference to GamerGate.
While the reaction to me seemed very disproportionate and was making a mountain out of a molehill, I do think that Beamdog did needlessly create a molehill in the first place and were thus not blameless in the affair ...
Press comments and interviews done by Beamdog staff made it clear they felt the game supported a specific agenda - even though I don't think that accurately reflects what's in the game itself. There was also the (now deleted) reference to GamerGate.
In a spoiler below I'm describing the history of events. Besides that Minsc line, I'm not sure there were a lot of official comments and interviews "supporting a specific agenda".
On April 1, 2016, the day after SoD had been released, Kotaku published the interview, which later became in-famous. That interview mentiones adressing jokes at women’s expense from BG1 in SoD.
This is all. Does that interview support a specific agenda?
After that people on the internet began digging facts about personal views of SoD writers and after finding a forum post by Amber on these boards in the off-topic area dated 1 year earlier than the SoD release, connected it with the Mizhena dialogue. And the storm happened.
On April 6, 2016, Trent Oster released the statement.
Do those statement and interviews support a specific agenda?
No other press comments and interviews of those who make the Beamdog staff happened. After leaving Beamdog, Amber gave an interview to cracked.com, but she was not a member of the team already.
Exactly the same can be said of the introduction of Mizhena, it did not happen in a vacuum. That neither makes it good or bad, but it should also be acknowledged.
Sorry, could be the hangover but I don't understand what your point is. Can you elaborate?
I mean, I agree that "the introduction of" Mizhena is neither good nor bad - it's just a rando minor character like a thousand others. (Bit weird to speak of it that way - I never saw someone talk about the "introduction" of Ribald.) How does that relate to trolling and review bombing?
(EDIT - honest question. Not being rhetorical or critical.)
The dialog with Mizhena is clumsy. There is no reason in BG world with the names that we have encountered that anybody would ask about hers. In the vacuum of the game itself, that dialog would simply not happen, there's no precident, no previous encounters where "a name" is signposted as unusual (because without language rules applying to a particular language, no names can be "unusual") So why does it occur?
I'm English, within the English language and with English speaking people, a name can be seen as unusual because it breaks or jars with understood and accepted rules of the language. The same could happen in any other language and because I don't understand the "rules", therefore wouldn't ask about the name because I don't know the rules that signpost it as unusual.
My objection to SOD is the poor writing, this is a particular example. But one that cannot be seen just as an objection to poor writing for some people.
Mizhena and the way she is introduced can only work outside of a vacuum, within the BG vacuum, her name is not unusual, nor would there be any issue with her changing gender (belt/spells).
So having written all this out, I'm going to change my mind (it happens sometimes when you take the time to articulate an objection). Mizhena's introduction is bad and no accusations of being part of gamergate ect. will change my opinion.
Exactly the same can be said of the introduction of Mizhena, it did not happen in a vacuum. That neither makes it good or bad, but it should also be acknowledged.
Sorry, could be the hangover but I don't understand what your point is. Can you elaborate?
I mean, I agree that "the introduction of" Mizhena is neither good nor bad - it's just a rando minor character like a thousand others. (Bit weird to speak of it that way - I never saw someone talk about the "introduction" of Ribald.) How does that relate to trolling and review bombing?
(EDIT - honest question. Not being rhetorical or critical.)
The dialog with Mizhena is clumsy. There is no reason in BG world with the names that we have encountered that anybody would ask about hers. In the vacuum of the game itself, that dialog would simply not happen, there's no precident, no previous encounters where "a name" is signposted as unusual (because without language rules applying to a particular language, no names can be "unusual") So why does it occur?
I'm English, within the English language and with English speaking people, a name can be seen as unusual because it breaks or jars with understood and accepted rules of the language. The same could happen in any other language and because I don't understand the "rules", therefore wouldn't ask about the name because I don't know the rules that signpost it as unusual.
My objection to SOD is the poor writing, this is a particular example. But one that cannot be seen just as an objection to poor writing for some people.
Mizhena and the way she is introduced can only work outside of a vacuum, within the BG vacuum, her name is not unusual, nor would there be any issue with her changing gender (belt/spells).
So having written all this out, I'm going to change my mind (it happens sometimes when you take the time to articulate an objection). Mizhena's introduction is bad and no accusations of being part of gamergate ect. will change my opinion.
"Liberated from the D&D 5E Player’s Handbook and consolidated for your reading pleasure; a collection of naming conventions for the most common playable races, along with those of all the major human ethnic groups in the Forgotten Realms setting!"
"In the Forgotten Realms, nine human ethnic groups are widely recognized, though over a dozen others are found in more localized areas of Faerûn. These groups, and the typical names of their members, can be used as inspiration no matter which world your human is in."
So...in this world there are nine major human ethnic groups. Each has its own conventions for when it comes to naming. So let's say that her parents were Illuskan and Rashemi. So she incorporated elements of both naming conventions. To someone in world, that may come across as odd. Now to us, where it is all a garbled mishmash of sounds, her answer can come across as it did to you. But I don't call this to be bad writing. At least not of the caliber that you are making it out to be. And it certainly isn't worse than a lot of other dialogue found in original BG. The failing is that we, as players don't see the naming conventions, or the conventions aren't fleshed out. But certainly, Charname could be well read enough to ask such a question, no?
The dialog with Mizhena is clumsy. There is no reason in BG world with the names that we have encountered that anybody would ask about hers. In the vacuum of the game itself, that dialog would simply not happen, there's no precident, no previous encounters where "a name" is signposted as unusual (because without language rules applying to a particular language, no names can be "unusual") So why does it occur?
There's a game called PST, which is regarded by many gamers as the game with the best dialogues and writing ever. PST happens in the D&D universe, just like BG.
So, in PST there's a minor NPC, Pox, whom you can meet in the Hive, not long after you start the game. And you know what? The dialogue with Pox goes exactly the same route as the one with Mizhena (or, considering the time of PST release, vice versa) - you say Hi and then go on with asking about the character's name, which sounds strange to the main character, and an explanation is immediately given. After that you proceed to further dialogue.
You ask about the name during the first lines of the dialogue.
"Hai?"
"Uh… who are you?"
"Pox I am, hai."
"Uh... Pox?"
"Mother and father named me, wished a pox-on-first-born, a curse given, came true, it did, hai."
You are not allowed to dislike Mizhena. It's a weird reverse discrimination.
It isn't the character. I'm an unabashed hater of Hexxat, as are many here. It's not "being allowed" to poke at old wounds in a hypocritical and nonsensical manner.
But, dare I ask, what is this "reverse discrimination" that you claim?
I'm just bemused at this level of hatred against a single NPC. I don't like the Wild mage child that is rescued from the bridge district. That isn't an unpopular opinion. I don't like the stoner elf in the wild mage camp. That isn't an unpopular opinion. But neither I nor others make thread and thread after thread, tearing apart beamdog and the writers over them. Mizhena foes do that. They take dislike, raise it to hatred, and refuse to let go. You don't see videos online about killing the stoner elf, or calling for the options of spewing hate at him.
Do you see the difference? You can dislike Mizhena. You can voice that. Nobody says that you can't. But when she becomes the focal point for a hate filled campaign that goes above and beyond anything directed at any other NPC (joinable party member or minor vendor), it becomes so ridiculous that eyebrows get raised.
The only thing I really question about it is the fact that the magic exists to just change her permanently. We SEE this happen in BG2 AND it's possible it can happen to you in BG1, so....ya know.
@Grum If you don't like Mizhena because she's a trans character, that's discrimination. If you have to like her because she's trans (so as to not be labelled a trans phobic bigot), that's also discrimination, but they call it reverse discrimination.
@Grum If you don't like Mizhena because she's a trans character, that's discrimination. If you have to like her because she's trans (so as to not be labelled a trans phobic bigot), that's also discrimination, but they call it reverse discrimination.
Who said that you have to like her because she is trans?
I think it's fascinating that in all the threads the topic of why Mizhena is the only vendor that needs to be fleshed out has arisen, no one from the side that is pro that has ever responded why. I've seen that request more times than I can remember by now and I have still not seen why she has been singled out as the only minor vendor that needs to become something more. Many ppl have also made accurate comparisons to other vendors from old BG1&2 which has never been requested to be fleshed out more than what they already are, but still no reply. I believe this is one of the reasons why ppl lump together GG'ers with women haters etc, since the issue of single out one character in need of fleshing out that just happens to be trans ofc begs the question: why only her and no other?
@Teo_live, I would appreciate if you could take the time to educate me as I am thoroughly interested.
If this post comes across as sarcastic, I'll just say here that it isn't. I'm genuinely intrigued and perplexed.
@shawne Even though I think our core beliefs are the same and that I agree with many things you've written in this thread I think you perhaps let your frustration rise a bit too high in your post in reply to mine. My post was specifically for @Teo_live since he represents a viewpoint that I've seen many times before but never got a reply to, one I would really want to have.
That's precisely what I'm trying to tell you, though: the reason you've never gotten a reply is because there isn't one. You're assuming there's some valid, justifiable, well-thought-out rationale at the bottom of all this, and that somehow it just never manifested in the nine months since SoD launched. This person is going to do what every other GamerGater troll has done since April: ignore salient points, gloss over facts that contradict their false narrative, complain that they're being bullied, and run the clock down until they vocalize an explicit slur that get them banned.
Emphasis mine. There is no reason to dislike Mizhena. Nope, couldn't be.
It's not like you must like her. Saying that she's badly written is one thing. Saying "Amber Scott is pushing her SJW agenda down our throats" is a completely different beast. The problem resides in the fact the second line of thought is the one that comes back constantly.
The writing in SoD can vary wildly from encounter to encounter and it tend to fail in situations a lot more important than some healer NPC. The unexplained reappearance of a destroyed McGuffin being the most glaring example. So when you ignore things like this to completely focus on a transwoman, well, this does raise questions.
The dialog with Mizhena is clumsy. There is no reason in BG world with the names that we have encountered that anybody would ask about hers.
So, in PST there's a minor NPC, Pox, whom you can meet in the Hive, not long after you start the game. And you know what? The dialogue with Pox goes exactly the same route as the one with Mizhena (or, considering the time of PST release, vice versa) - you say Hi and then go on with asking about the character's name, which sounds strange to the main character, and an explanation is immediately given. After that you proceed to further dialogue.
Uh ... yeah.
But that's a rash on one's neck, and not a penis between their legs.
Thus, folks won't complain about Pox, but /I/ get your point.
Question is, will others?
After reading the thread, I will say /no/.
So, close the thread already before I have to load up on my rainbow arrows and cause chaos.
Comments
It doesn't matter who wrote Mizi, I felt a voice that said, "This NPC means more." Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. I don't think it's mandatory that she be more involved, but maybe the writer had more to say. I wanted to be emotionally available to appreciate that message if it ever came along.
They way we were introduced to Mizi may not have been delivered the way it was intended. But that writer unlocked something deep within me that made a connection. Intended or not, that is powerful.
@Enilwyn, I think it's great that you felt that way about the character. I have too for many characters I've encountered in the saga. But, with that said, feeling what you feel and demanding a character to be fleshed out to not stay a token are two different things. I fully respect your views, but it's not really a reply to my question.
(Edit: I don't mean that you demand it, but many others have.)
And for the record, I love the cleric in question's voice actor and wouldn't mind a more fleshed out character, but I would prefer if it were for the right reasons. I would also like Lucky Aello/Thalantyr/Silence the silent shopkeeper to be more fleshed out.
I will not be surprised if 2.4 Mizi is reduced to, "Would you like to take a look at my services?"
1: Yes.
2: No.
3: GFY.
And now for something completely different...
clip
"But no one is denying you that right; the point is, your credibility is undermined by the actions of those review-bombers, with whom you voluntarily associate. That association is fine; but maybe have a frank conversation with them about how they made you appear to the rest of the world, rather than (or in addition to!) criticizing the rest of the world for how it receives you. If you get reactions from people who see you as a troll, it's because your arguments align with those of actual trolls. You may cry that it's unfair, but it's important that you see yourself in the context of the situation, not in a vacuum. Because you never actually interact with people in a vacuum."
Exactly the same can be said of the introduction of Mizhena, it did not happen in a vacuum.
That neither makes it good or bad, but it should also be acknowledged.
If I'm frustrated, it's because this exact scenario has already played itself out a dozen times (seriously, run a search on the forum for Mizhena threads, see for yourself), and all the moderators do is call for neutrality as if there's a middle ground here and exhort people to buy Beamdog games. They'll be policing Mizhena threads from now to doomsday because of it. Much appreciated. I wish I could say I'm coming up with original arguments each time, but at this point I could set the exact beats of the conversation to clockwork.
While the reaction to me seemed very disproportionate and was making a mountain out of a molehill, I do think that Beamdog did needlessly create a molehill in the first place and were thus not blameless in the affair ...
On April 1, 2016, the day after SoD had been released, Kotaku published the interview, which later became in-famous. That interview mentiones adressing jokes at women’s expense from BG1 in SoD.
This is all. Does that interview support a specific agenda?
After that people on the internet began digging facts about personal views of SoD writers and after finding a forum post by Amber on these boards in the off-topic area dated 1 year earlier than the SoD release, connected it with the Mizhena dialogue. And the storm happened.
On April 6, 2016, Trent Oster released the statement.
On April 11, 2016, Trent Oster gave an interview.
Another interview was given on April 13, 2016.
Do those statement and interviews support a specific agenda?
No other press comments and interviews of those who make the Beamdog staff happened. After leaving Beamdog, Amber gave an interview to cracked.com, but she was not a member of the team already.
In the vacuum of the game itself, that dialog would simply not happen, there's no precident, no previous encounters where "a name" is signposted as unusual (because without language rules applying to a particular language, no names can be "unusual")
So why does it occur?
I'm English, within the English language and with English speaking people, a name can be seen as unusual because it breaks or jars with understood and accepted rules of the language.
The same could happen in any other language and because I don't understand the "rules", therefore wouldn't ask about the name because I don't know the rules that signpost it as unusual.
My objection to SOD is the poor writing, this is a particular example. But one that cannot be seen just as an objection to poor writing for some people.
Mizhena and the way she is introduced can only work outside of a vacuum, within the BG vacuum, her name is not unusual, nor would there be any issue with her changing gender (belt/spells).
So having written all this out, I'm going to change my mind (it happens sometimes when you take the time to articulate an objection).
Mizhena's introduction is bad and no accusations of being part of gamergate ect. will change my opinion.
"Liberated from the D&D 5E Player’s Handbook and consolidated for your reading pleasure; a collection of naming conventions for the most common playable races, along with those of all the major human ethnic groups in the Forgotten Realms setting!"
"In the Forgotten Realms, nine human ethnic groups are widely recognized, though over a dozen others are found in more localized areas of Faerûn. These groups, and the typical names of their members, can be used as inspiration no matter which world your human is in."
So...in this world there are nine major human ethnic groups. Each has its own conventions for when it comes to naming. So let's say that her parents were Illuskan and Rashemi. So she incorporated elements of both naming conventions. To someone in world, that may come across as odd. Now to us, where it is all a garbled mishmash of sounds, her answer can come across as it did to you. But I don't call this to be bad writing. At least not of the caliber that you are making it out to be. And it certainly isn't worse than a lot of other dialogue found in original BG. The failing is that we, as players don't see the naming conventions, or the conventions aren't fleshed out. But certainly, Charname could be well read enough to ask such a question, no?
So, in PST there's a minor NPC, Pox, whom you can meet in the Hive, not long after you start the game. And you know what? The dialogue with Pox goes exactly the same route as the one with Mizhena (or, considering the time of PST release, vice versa) - you say Hi and then go on with asking about the character's name, which sounds strange to the main character, and an explanation is immediately given. After that you proceed to further dialogue.
You ask about the name during the first lines of the dialogue.
"Hai?"
"Uh… who are you?"
"Pox I am, hai."
"Uh... Pox?"
"Mother and father named me, wished a pox-on-first-born, a curse given, came true, it did, hai."
But, dare I ask, what is this "reverse discrimination" that you claim?
I'm just bemused at this level of hatred against a single NPC. I don't like the Wild mage child that is rescued from the bridge district. That isn't an unpopular opinion. I don't like the stoner elf in the wild mage camp. That isn't an unpopular opinion. But neither I nor others make thread and thread after thread, tearing apart beamdog and the writers over them. Mizhena foes do that. They take dislike, raise it to hatred, and refuse to let go. You don't see videos online about killing the stoner elf, or calling for the options of spewing hate at him.
Do you see the difference? You can dislike Mizhena. You can voice that. Nobody says that you can't. But when she becomes the focal point for a hate filled campaign that goes above and beyond anything directed at any other NPC (joinable party member or minor vendor), it becomes so ridiculous that eyebrows get raised.
But no, it didn't affect the overall game to me.
For example Emphasis mine. There is no reason to dislike Mizhena. Nope, couldn't be.
The writing in SoD can vary wildly from encounter to encounter and it tend to fail in situations a lot more important than some healer NPC. The unexplained reappearance of a destroyed McGuffin being the most glaring example. So when you ignore things like this to completely focus on a transwoman, well, this does raise questions.
But that's a rash on one's neck, and not a penis between their legs.
Thus, folks won't complain about Pox, but /I/ get your point.
Question is, will others?
After reading the thread, I will say /no/.
So, close the thread already before I have to load up on my rainbow arrows and cause chaos.
If your stated reason for disliking Mizhena is
1) the fact that she's transgender
and/or
2) that she's supposedly the product of Amber Scott's alleged "SJW agenda"
then that's actually just regular vanilla discrimination.
You were close, though! Ballpark, really. Good for you.