@shawne I disagree as Beamdog seems much more moderate in their progressive views and tolerant of opposing opinion. Treant himself made this very apparent in his acknowledgements and rectifications.. however this is besides the point
People calling us all bigots is pretty bad, but I have to draw the line once accuses me (or anyone here for that matter) as a sexist. Neither side of the debate was sexist, no one here deserves such a label.
Let me make this very clear, usually I wouldn't care about your snide remarks as I would just counter them with my own insults. However this seems to be a respectful thread, so I kindly ask you a second time to be respectful of people in here that you disagree with.
@shawne I disagree as Beamdog seems much more moderate in their progressive views and tolerant of opposing opinion. Treant himself made this very apparent in his acknowledgements and rectifications.. however this is besides the point
Of course it's besides the point - it's a bald-faced lie. Beamdog put Mizhena in SoD in the first place. The fact that you're using Trent's statement as evidence of moderation is hilarious, considering the reason he had to make that statement in the first place was because GamerGaters and transphobic trolls crawled out of their slime pits to do what they always do when they get triggered.
People calling us all bigots is pretty bad, but I have to draw the line once accuses me (or anyone here for that matter) as a sexist. Neither side of the debate was sexist, no one here deserves such a label.
Draw as many lines as you want. If you make ignorant statements, if you don't know the facts and choose to speak up anyway, you run the risk that someone's going to notice and respond in turn.
You want respect? Earn it. You can do the research, ask questions, make a case for your perspective that doesn't rely on tunnel vision, misinformation and scapegoating. Or you can complain some more about that uppity Amber Scott because Breitbart told you it's all her fault. Your choice.
In one of R.A. Salvatore's novels, Drizzt Do'Urden observes that it is best to offer people respect without demanding that they earn it. Demanding that people earn our respect comes off as presumptuous--after all, did we do anything to deserve their respect?
Instead, we should grant respect from the beginning. If people are truly not worthy of respect, you can always retract that respect later.
But Drizzt's position is irrelevant because the Site Rules clearly state that no one here has to "earn" anyone's respect; it is a given.
Rule 4: Respect Each Other. This one should go without saying. Even if you don't agree with someone, do them the courtesy of addressing that disagreement in a civil manner, or don't address it at all. If you think someone has violated any of the above rules, please do not attempt to deal with the matter yourself. Inform a moderator, and let us handle it. We're very good at our jobs, and we don't outsource.
I always liked the Army's definition of respect. "Treat people as they should be treated." Actually...no. That's a bad idea. We'd probably end up with a lot of dead people. Unless...Army, you're brilliant. I just realized that we've been giving proper respect to our enemies.
Also on a completely different note: know what is kinda sad? That I hate gamergate with a passion because of their harassment campaign. And no matter what they do in the future, I'll always see them as akin to a terrorist organization, sending a message to game developers: "upset us and we will destroy you. Cater to our whims or we will review bomb and troll you to oblivion." Truly upsets me. Will never forgive gamergate for this. And should I have the misfortune of meeting one of them...well, I can honestly say that my opinion of that person will begin at a truly subterranium level. Because it isn't about ethics in journalism. It is about fighting a culture war with scorched earth tactics.
This is a relief, the (majority) of customers vote with their wallets
Isn't an RPG a work of art, the fruit of a lot of creative labor, much like a great novel or an epic movie? To me the Mizhena discussion isn't just about voting with wallets. It's about meddling with people's creative work, it's about censorship really.
Can upset readers tell GRR Martin to change the explicit nature of some of his writing? Can I tell James Cameron to change the finale of the movie Avatar because the film culminated in what I consider banal shooting and fighting? Can we get our money back? No, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Let's go back to the year 2001. Would anyone consider demanding a BG2 patch from Bioware because their BG1 companions were replaced by Minsc and Jaheira in the BG2 starting dungeon? Or because their favorite companion Yoshimo was killed off? Or because female characters could only romance one male NPC, and a rather arsey one at that, while male characters could romance three females? Or because all the romances were straight? Of course not. (I'm aware that the internet was a quiter place back then.) What people did instead was writing mods. This game is super moddable. Mod Mizhena for all I care.
I can't see why we should have a say in what Beamdog does with Mizhena. Siege of Dragonspear is not a commissioned work. I find people's outrage on bits they don't like bemusing, but their sense of entitlement as to the writing outright misguided. What we can demand from Beamdog as customers is a functioning (so relatively bug-free) game. However it's not up to us to veto or expurgate the writing. At least it shouldn't be. Thus it saddens me discover that I'm wrong, that Beamdog seems to be yielding to the Mizhena critics. Nevertheless, as difficult as it is for me to imagine people not buying SoD for this miniscule bit of content, I can't blame Beamdog for changing the character if they need the money. To call it a relief that people are voting with their money though (and with their intolerance)? No.
@semiticgod Speaking of Drizzt, I haven't gotten through Archmage yet, but a writer could use several social issues from his world alone (racism, escapism, being an outcast, sexism, xenophobia, orc-equality, and the list goes on). On a side note, I am in the, "can we kill Drizzt yet" camp of readers. I've never been a fan of his soliloquies and I love rooting for Menzoberranzan.
There are a lot of political/social tie-ins that could be made and keep the immersion deeply rooted in the source material. I'm sure the BG timeline is a headache though.
@JuliusBorisov, is that something the devs think about or is the creative process completely different?
*SNIP...* Name one person in this entire thread that disagrees with ANYONE HERE for simply being a woman?
I rarely get offended, but since people here are being civil (or at least fake civil according to Kilivitz) I must say that post of yours using sarcasm to paint an entire group of potential customers as woman hating... that's quite rude and ignorant (and very hypocritical since you were the one demanding all critics get their facts right). Please respect opposing peoples views here, or at the very least do not strawman us as collective woman-antagonizing sexists it is completely unnecessary.
I stay off the forums because I don't wish to have my views represent Beamdog in any way. And while no one will accept this because I have a blue background, I do not speak for Beamdog or represent it's views with this post.
However, as you (@Teo_live) do seem like a guy with an opinion that goes above "OMG TRANS!" I'll respond to a piece of this to hopefully give you another perspective.
"I must say that post of yours using sarcasm to paint an entire group of potential customers as woman hating... that's quite rude and ignorant..."
Actually, it's not. It's grounded in a very large amount of fact and very very public example. Are you aware that the Gamer's gate folks on Reddit have been banned from various Reddit forums?
The mere post on the Gamer'sGate sub redit (KotakuInAction) AUTOMATICALLY and WITHOUT additional action will get you banned from several Reddit threads including the "Rape" subreddit which is intended for victims of Rape to discuss their experiences with other Rape victims in order to help each other.
I'll let you read the article above which gives the response to the question of why the ban from the Moderators of the /r/Rape subreddit. To me...this is horrifying. The kind of person I believe it would take to post stuff like that...in that location...among people who have experienced that kind of trauma...
As a perspective to you, when you start posting on this topic you will be immediately linked to the Gamersgate / Kotaku-In-Action folks by others on this forum. Because no one here knows you in real life or what kind of person you are, we can only go by your posts, and if your post is another rehash of "OMG Trans!" then, right or wrong, many people here are going to equate you with a Gamer's Gater.
While that may not have been your intent, and while your opinion may not be that of Kotaku-In-Action, if you read pretty much anything by what might very well be only a small subsection (but a very vocal and very public subsection) of their members, you'll find that the statement above about lumping Gamer's Gate in with women haters isn't far off the mark.
Anonymity on the internet is a great thing. It allows you to post your beliefs and ideas freely without the social stigma associated with opinions that aren't the main stream being attached to you as a person. That said, Anonymity also causes problems in that your topic will equate you with others who post on the same topic, this is no different.
If your beliefs do not follow those of Kotaku-In-Action, you might wish to be careful about what you post here about Mizhenna or the fiasco that was "Baldur's Gate Gate", it was a very difficult time for many people on these forums (both for Beamdog supporters and detractors) with a lot of harsh words and very very ugly posts made on both sides.
Further, if you are aligned with or associate yourself with the Gamer's Gate group, I STRONGLY recommend you read the link above and do your own research about the group before engaging with it.
I'm not telling you to censor yourself, a well thought out opinion is always appreciated, regardless of whether that opinion is for or against Beamdog as a company or the products it produces. However, as with any potentially vitriolic topic care needs to be taken in how it's addressed. I doubt you go in to your School or Place of work and spout about how much you love or hate the outcome of the last presidential election at the top of your lungs, I doubt you crow (one way or the other) about your beliefs on political leanings such as the death penalty, abortion, Religion or Immigration to the world at large in a large social setting.
I'm not suggesting that the conversation around Mizhena reaches anything close to the importance of any of the above, I'm simply suggesting that when it comes to difficult conversations, as a society we generally don't hold those openly in public spaces because we respect that those around us may have differing opinions that we do. And while the opinion of what makes SoD A good or bad game is absolutely relevant on this forum (and Mizhena might be a factor in that) focusing on such a small subsection of a 60+ hour gameplay game will absolutely lump you in with a group you may not wish to be lumped in with. And when that happens, complaining that people aren't hearing your intent for your words, or that people are putting words in your mouth that you never intended WILL fall on deaf ears
The issue with this conversation is it does bring in conversations about the larger social issues of Women's Rights, the Rights of the LGBT Community, Religion, Politics and other very very deep and socially divisive topics. Those who address this topic may not mean to discuss LGBT Rights or how Women are treated in society, but the moment this topic comes those social issues are most certainly front and center in the minds of most on this forum.
Again, my intent with this post is to provide a different perspective, not to call anyone out for an improper post.
Apparently, a ")" At the end of a name is still treated as part of the "@" thus it's likely you weren't properly tagged. I like to make sure everyone I respond to does, indeed, know. It gives you the opportunity to respond if you wish.
Had a short 4 hour power nap, wake up and 10 new posts added (of mostly opposition) holy crap that is amazing. I didn't think I prodded an open wound that hard. @Illydth replying to your posts AND your link will be way to big I am in a mad rush atm so I will just focus on the post for now and the link another time. Make of it what you will
However, as you (@Teo_live) do seem like a guy with an opinion that goes above "OMG TRANS!" I'll respond to a piece of this to hopefully give you another perspective.
Actually, it's not. It's grounded in a very large amount of fact and very very public example. Are you aware that the Gamer's gate folks on Reddit have been banned from various Reddit forums?
Are you aware conservative folks in all fields sometimes get banned on all platforms of social media frequently not just reddit? Even worse some people had their posts edited without approval. Freedom of speech... is a fleeting concept for non-progressive mindsets in my opinion.
Still not as bad as twitter, they are beyond hope. Then they wonder why they stocks drop to the floor...
As a perspective to you, when you start posting on this topic you will be immediately linked to the Gamersgate / Kotaku-In-Action folks by others on this forum. Because no one here knows you in real life or what kind of person you are, we can only go by your posts, and if your post is another rehash of "OMG Trans!" then, right or wrong, many people here are going to equate you with a Gamer's Gater.
No I self identified myself as their kindred in this thread, knowing quite well I will receive a backlash from hell from some people here that I shall not name. I was also around when these so called "OMG trans" threads appeared here (I wasn't vocal though, a silent browser so to speak). It was nasty on both sides, but I think "OMG bad writing" or "OMG forced politics" is more accurate....
TBH I don't like either side of the spectrum being labelled with "SJW" or "bigots" respectively. 99% of people on either side of the extremes imho are just normal people being sensible it was the media blew both sides into the boogeyman (I am looking at you polygon). On a side note, this thread I waited for a multitude of people to mention Mizhena before I did. I don't like bringing her up first
While that may not have been your intent, and while your opinion may not be that of Kotaku-In-Action, if you read pretty much anything by what might very well be only a small subsection (but a very vocal and very public subsection) of their members, you'll find that the statement above about lumping Gamer's Gate in with women haters isn't far off the mark.
This is my first major point of disagreement with you. Both sides lumping each other with name calling is completely idiotic.
I can safely assume I have read more Kokatu-in-action threads than most people here.... naturally. Gaters there (or any conservatives in general) that are "women haters" are incredibly small, a minority of a minority. As I said before the vast majority on both sides seem like normal rational humans. It would as insane as me saying people here are male haters, maybe one or 2 ultra progressives actually do hate males (hashtag kill all white men?) but the vast majority on either side don't view genitalia as Ambers main problem.
I'm not suggesting that the conversation around Mizhena reaches anything close to the importance of any of the above, I'm simply suggesting that when it comes to difficult conversations, as a society we generally don't hold those openly in public spaces because we respect that those around us may have differing opinions that we do. And while the opinion of what makes SoD A good or bad game is absolutely relevant on this forum (and Mizhena might be a factor in that) focusing on such a small subsection of a 60+ hour gameplay game will absolutely lump you in with a group you may not wish to be lumped in with. And when that happens, complaining that people aren't hearing your intent for your words, or that people are putting words in your mouth that you never intended WILL fall on deaf ears
People can lump me in with whatever they wish. Some people called my collective group fat already lol, it doesn't get worse than that
Even so with this mysterious upcoming patch supposedly improving her that no one knows much about? What better time to talk about her? Yes it is divisive but Amber Scott imho broke that ice with extreme politics. On a side note, what on earth is the new patch going to do with her anyway? Is Mizhena going to remain minor and irrelevant?
"a side note, what on earth is the new patch going to do with her anyway? Is Mizhena going to remain minor and irrelevant?"
I hope so. Because it's pretty clear that most of the haters are just going to hate. Caving to them is a trap which will allow them to complain so more. She's trans. Who cares? She mentions it like its nothing and that's a good thing. Having her 'have to be' a major fleshed out character just enforces the notion that trans is 'other' and has to stand out.
Yes it is divisive but Amber Scott imho broke that ice with extreme politics
*facepalm*
This is basically the "We Are All Individuals" sketch playing itself out. GamerGaters don't get to act like drones reciting the party line over and over and then complain they're being lumped together.
*Edit: Great... facepalm... you sure showed me @shawne , I still don't understand why you have to be snide toward opposing views? I guess it is the only way you feel you can get a point across?
"a side note, what on earth is the new patch going to do with her anyway? Is Mizhena going to remain minor and irrelevant?"
I hope so. Because it's pretty clear that most of the haters are just going to hate. Caving to them is a trap which will allow them to complain so more. She's trans. Who cares? She mentions it like its nothing and that's a good thing. Having her 'have to be' a major fleshed out character just enforces the notion that trans is 'other' and has to stand out.
Are you really that paranoid about your strongly critical fellow gamers? It is... kinda sad it came to this
Use me as an example here, when I said: "I think mizhena has the potential to be an awesome character, she has a sweet voice, interesting virtues etc" ...do you really think I am liar trying to lay a [transphobic-trap] here just so I can complain more?
Yes no one has to be "major" though how else do you plan on slowly healing the SoD divide in the BG fan community and Treant already mentioned adding more to her should have happened so I revived my faith in beamdog and eventually bought the game. Look if you really think we are all just fake bigots laying traps then prove us wrong. Flesh her out if for no other reason than to expose us for the frauds you think we are...
"a side note, what on earth is the new patch going to do with her anyway? Is Mizhena going to remain minor and irrelevant?"
I hope so. Because it's pretty clear that most of the haters are just going to hate. Caving to them is a trap which will allow them to complain so more. She's trans. Who cares? She mentions it like its nothing and that's a good thing. Having her 'have to be' a major fleshed out character just enforces the notion that trans is 'other' and has to stand out.
Are you really that paranoid about your fellow gamers on the other side of the fence? It is... kinda sad
Use me as an example here, when I said: "I think mizhena has the potential to be an awesome character, she has a sweet voice, interesting virtues etc" ...do you really think I am liar trying to lay a [transphobic-trap] here just so I can complain more?
Yes no one has to be "major" though how else do you plan on slowly healing the SoD divide in the BG fan community and Treant already mentioned adding more to her should have happened so I revived my faith in beamdog and eventually bought the game. Look if you really think we are all just fake bigots laying traps then prove us wrong. Flesh her out if for no other reason than to expose us for the frauds you think we are...
These "people" and I use that as a biological term only, are doing that and worse. You really are trying to tell me all of those "people" really want what amounts to Thalantyr fleshed out more?
I say bullshit. They will continue to attack the only trans NPC and will continue targeting the only female writer. Because trolling, doxying, harassment, death/rape threats and review/poll bombing is what they do. And caving in to their demands, even when one of them pretends to be reasonable, will not end well.
Yes no one has to be "major" though how else do you plan on slowly healing the SoD divide in the BG fan community and Treant already mentioned adding more to her should have happened so I revived my faith in beamdog and eventually bought the game. Look if you really think we are all just fake bigots laying traps then prove us wrong. Flesh her out if for no other reason than to expose us for the frauds you think we are...
Oh, sure. "Fake bigots" have never reacted poorly to fleshed-out trans characters. Must've been some other horde of trolls that complained for an entire year about Krem Aclassi.
These "people" and I use that as a biological term only, are doing that and worse. You really are trying to tell me all of those "people" really want what amounts to Thalantyr fleshed out more?
Caving to them is a trap which will allow them to complain so more. She's trans. Who cares? She mentions it like its nothing and that's a good thing. Having her 'have to be' a major fleshed out character just enforces the notion that trans is 'other' and has to stand out.
Are you really that paranoid about your fellow gamers on the other side of the fence? It is... kinda sad
I agree that Grum's statement about the likelihood of complaining is something born of frustration and not helpful to a productive discussion. However, I don't think that's the main issue - he also says, quite correctly in my view, that Mizhena is a minor character and should be allowed to remain like that without having to make a big deal out of the fact that she happens to be trans. There are hundreds of minor characters, such as quest givers and shopkeepers, in the game and very few of them have more dialogue (or indeed better-written dialogue) than Mizhena. The only thing that separates Mizhena from others is that she's trans - and it would seem to me to be better not to exacerbate that separation by emphasising her difference, but just leave the character as written, i.e. a minor character with a vaguely interesting back story ...
If someone is interested and wants to explore her character further then that can be done in a mod - as with many existing NPCs.
*Edit: Great... facepalm... you sure showed me @shawne , I still don't understand why you have to be snide toward opposing views? I guess it is the only way you feel you can get a point across?
Claiming you have an "opposing view" is generous at this point. All you've done so far is parrot the same old tired debunked rhetoric we've seen on this forum a hundred times. And you have the gall to act offended because I'm being snide. Sit down.
Some people don't seem to realize that saying "it's my opinion" isn't a shield. Opinions aren't necessarily equal in value, they can be challenged and while you are certainly free to express any opinion you want, others are equally free to judge you for it.
There's plenty to respond to, and plenty I don't agree with. Unfortunately I have a *self imposed* ban on myself posting to our forums, ESPECIALLY in regards to this topic or to people associated with the group you claim to be associated with...so this will be the last time I poke my head into this thread before I say something I will forever be unhappy with myself for.
As a final piece of advice: You do yourself and your argument NO CREDIT by calling out specific developers or writers as a focus for your opinions. You have been corrected on this already in this thread.
If you'd like not to be lumped in with the exceptionally public and vocal "minority" ("Gaters there (or any conservatives in general) that are "women haters" are incredibly small, a minority of a minority.") a great place to start would be to recognize the following 2 points:
1) No single person could have created, written or implemented (or did create, write or implement) any part of Siege of Dragonspear you object to. Calling out any specific person as the "villain" or "culprit" makes your argument and opinion (at best) immediately suspect and is a primary cause for you to be lumped in with the worst of your group (whatever percentage that is).
2) Recognize that when you align yourself with a group which has exceptionally vocal people who are seen to be exceptionally Misogynistic (among other faults), and then go on to INCORRECTLY blame a single FEMALE person on staff for your perceived Ills, you are ONLY adding fuel to the fire you are objecting to. Fair or unfair, when you speak in the voice of a group you take on the persona of that group.
If you really do want your opinions to be taken as anything other than yet another gamer's gate thread, that would be a great place to start.
I think it's fascinating that in all the threads the topic of why Mizhena is the only vendor that needs to be fleshed out has arisen, no one from the side that is pro that has ever responded why. I've seen that request more times than I can remember by now and I have still not seen why she has been singled out as the only minor vendor that needs to become something more. Many ppl have also made accurate comparisons to other vendors from old BG1&2 which has never been requested to be fleshed out more than what they already are, but still no reply. I believe this is one of the reasons why ppl lump together GG'ers with women haters etc, since the issue of single out one character in need of fleshing out that just happens to be trans ofc begs the question: why only her and no other?
@Teo_live, I would appreciate if you could take the time to educate me as I am thoroughly interested.
If this post comes across as sarcastic, I'll just say here that it isn't. I'm genuinely intrigued and perplexed.
@Skatan: The problem, I think, is that because it's such a cliche these days to throw around labels whether they're accurate or not, we've all adopted this mindset of "no one's really racist, no one's really transphobic, there must be another explanation."
As a result of that, we end up trying to intellectualize and rationalize responses when there are no deeper meanings. This person is just the latest in a long, long line of small-minded bigots who show up, spew their monotonous misinformed opinions all over the forum, argue with everyone that they're the ones being discriminated against, and ultimately either get banned or lose interest in favor of their next victim. It's all in the archived and locked threads here, in black and white. Same exact pattern each time.
That's why it's such a waste of time to try and engage with them on any deeper level. This person has been repeatedly made aware of the fact that Amber Scott is a very small part of the machine, and their next post was "Amber Scott broke the ice with extreme politics." What are you supposed to do with that? What's the point in asking them to elaborate? This is all there is.
(This is also why I find @semiticgod's comparison to be rather troubling - setting aside the obvious counter of "Drizzt respects everyone, but he also decapitates trolls without a second thought", @Kurona has it: not all opinions are equal, or equally valid. I will not respect someone who demonizes women out of ignorance, nor should the Site Rules be invoked to equalize or normalize that kind of behavior.)
@Teo_live: I think you have already expressed here everything you have wanted about Mizhena, and people have already given the opposing arguments. If this talk continues, it will only do so in circles. Which is very far from a productive discussion.
You have recently purchased SoD, and I highly appreciate it. Now maybe it's time for you to give it a go, play the expansion till the end, see what it is about and what it does offer, and maybe only afterwards return to the topic of Mizhena (if you will want to return to this topic after trying SoD).
As I've said twice in this thread already, SoD is not about Mizhena, and the review in the OP has managed to look at other things in the expansion.
This person is just the latest in a long, long line of small-minded bigots who show up, spew their monotonous misinformed opinions all over the forum
This thread has remained civil and it will continue to do so, especially if we don't generalize and don't speak about intelligence of other posters. A moderator has already quoted the rule to respect each other, @shawne .
Of course there are a whole lot of people involved in producing a game, but various individuals have their own creative contributions to the process, which are often quite identifiable and which the originators are usually proud to have (and to be seen to have) contributed. For example, I particularly recall that when there was some debate about the inclusion of Hexxat, Andrew Foley stepped forward with clarifications in which he specifically took credit (or blame, depending upon each reader's approval rating) for writing Hexxat - not "WotC did it" or "it was an unattributable corporate emergence", but him.
Artists can't have it both ways, saying "I did that! Me, me!" when their contributions are applauded, but then hiding behind the corporate machine and saying "Nothing to do with me, guv!" when there's criticism. Both Andrew and Amber (as the two main writers for SoD) have been happy to accept praise (and rightly so) for some of their work, and so far as I am aware (and to their credit) neither has been so hypocritical as to deny responsibility for other details which have been criticised.
I have persistently assumed that Amber Scott wrote Mizhena because I vaguely recall an interview in which (it seemed to me that) she took responsibility for having done so. However, I don't now remember the details, so perhaps I may have misinterpreted what she said, or perhaps I was misled by incorrect assertions from others. I haven't previously corrected the attribution, because I've never before seen anyone suggest that it was incorrect - if anyone did, then I missed it. It seems previously to have been uncontroversial that Mizhena was Amber's creation. If that's not so, then I'll happily stand corrected (although in the latter case I'll be interested to hear who else's idea it was).
None of this is anything to do with Amber's sex, that's utterly coincidental and irrelevant. It's an absurd suggestion (by @Grum, for example) that one is a misogynist merely because one criticises something which happens to have been (or which I believed, possibly incorrectly, had been acknowledged to have been) written by someone who irrelevantly happens to be female. In other threads, I've criticised some of Andrew's contributions (e.g. Hexxat), yet somehow no-one thought to accuse me of misandry merely because he's male.
*Edit: @Illydth I can't really say I agree (Gallowglass summed it up perfectly). I personally try not judge anyone by their association, if people want to treat me in kind it is ultimately their choice. Thanks for taking time out to post here and give us your perspective on things.*
@JuliusBorisov Right you are. The dust was pretty much settled by page 4 imo all sides had good input, in hindsight I would have left it at that.
One final question though before I temporarily abandon this thread, where do we find information about the up coming patch changes and it's release date? As you can tell, I am interested... I can't find any details about it though
Comments
People calling us all bigots is pretty bad, but I have to draw the line once accuses me (or anyone here for that matter) as a sexist. Neither side of the debate was sexist, no one here deserves such a label.
Let me make this very clear, usually I wouldn't care about your snide remarks as I would just counter them with my own insults. However this seems to be a respectful thread, so I kindly ask you a second time to be respectful of people in here that you disagree with.
You want respect? Earn it. You can do the research, ask questions, make a case for your perspective that doesn't rely on tunnel vision, misinformation and scapegoating. Or you can complain some more about that uppity Amber Scott because Breitbart told you it's all her fault. Your choice.
"Ok. Here's a minor NPC who happens to be trans."
"No! Flesh her out. Make her a joinable NPC. Expand expand expand!"
"Why?"
"Because she is trans, you can't treat her like everyone else. Also, btw, don't pander."
"..."
Instead, we should grant respect from the beginning. If people are truly not worthy of respect, you can always retract that respect later.
But Drizzt's position is irrelevant because the Site Rules clearly state that no one here has to "earn" anyone's respect; it is a given.
Also on a completely different note: know what is kinda sad? That I hate gamergate with a passion because of their harassment campaign. And no matter what they do in the future, I'll always see them as akin to a terrorist organization, sending a message to game developers: "upset us and we will destroy you. Cater to our whims or we will review bomb and troll you to oblivion." Truly upsets me. Will never forgive gamergate for this. And should I have the misfortune of meeting one of them...well, I can honestly say that my opinion of that person will begin at a truly subterranium level. Because it isn't about ethics in journalism. It is about fighting a culture war with scorched earth tactics.
Can upset readers tell GRR Martin to change the explicit nature of some of his writing? Can I tell James Cameron to change the finale of the movie Avatar because the film culminated in what I consider banal shooting and fighting? Can we get our money back? No, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Let's go back to the year 2001. Would anyone consider demanding a BG2 patch from Bioware because their BG1 companions were replaced by Minsc and Jaheira in the BG2 starting dungeon? Or because their favorite companion Yoshimo was killed off? Or because female characters could only romance one male NPC, and a rather arsey one at that, while male characters could romance three females? Or because all the romances were straight? Of course not. (I'm aware that the internet was a quiter place back then.) What people did instead was writing mods. This game is super moddable. Mod Mizhena for all I care.
I can't see why we should have a say in what Beamdog does with Mizhena. Siege of Dragonspear is not a commissioned work. I find people's outrage on bits they don't like bemusing, but their sense of entitlement as to the writing outright misguided. What we can demand from Beamdog as customers is a functioning (so relatively bug-free) game. However it's not up to us to veto or expurgate the writing. At least it shouldn't be. Thus it saddens me discover that I'm wrong, that Beamdog seems to be yielding to the Mizhena critics.
Nevertheless, as difficult as it is for me to imagine people not buying SoD for this miniscule bit of content, I can't blame Beamdog for changing the character if they need the money. To call it a relief that people are voting with their money though (and with their intolerance)? No.
There are a lot of political/social tie-ins that could be made and keep the immersion deeply rooted in the source material. I'm sure the BG timeline is a headache though.
@JuliusBorisov, is that something the devs think about or is the creative process completely different?
Edit: grammar
However, as you (@Teo_live) do seem like a guy with an opinion that goes above "OMG TRANS!" I'll respond to a piece of this to hopefully give you another perspective.
"I must say that post of yours using sarcasm to paint an entire group of potential customers as woman hating... that's quite rude and ignorant..."
Actually, it's not. It's grounded in a very large amount of fact and very very public example. Are you aware that the Gamer's gate folks on Reddit have been banned from various Reddit forums?
http://observer.com/2015/10/posting-on-gamergates-subreddit-automatically-get-users-banned-on-others/
The mere post on the Gamer'sGate sub redit (KotakuInAction) AUTOMATICALLY and WITHOUT additional action will get you banned from several Reddit threads including the "Rape" subreddit which is intended for victims of Rape to discuss their experiences with other Rape victims in order to help each other.
I'll let you read the article above which gives the response to the question of why the ban from the Moderators of the /r/Rape subreddit. To me...this is horrifying. The kind of person I believe it would take to post stuff like that...in that location...among people who have experienced that kind of trauma...
As a perspective to you, when you start posting on this topic you will be immediately linked to the Gamersgate / Kotaku-In-Action folks by others on this forum. Because no one here knows you in real life or what kind of person you are, we can only go by your posts, and if your post is another rehash of "OMG Trans!" then, right or wrong, many people here are going to equate you with a Gamer's Gater.
While that may not have been your intent, and while your opinion may not be that of Kotaku-In-Action, if you read pretty much anything by what might very well be only a small subsection (but a very vocal and very public subsection) of their members, you'll find that the statement above about lumping Gamer's Gate in with women haters isn't far off the mark.
Anonymity on the internet is a great thing. It allows you to post your beliefs and ideas freely without the social stigma associated with opinions that aren't the main stream being attached to you as a person. That said, Anonymity also causes problems in that your topic will equate you with others who post on the same topic, this is no different.
If your beliefs do not follow those of Kotaku-In-Action, you might wish to be careful about what you post here about Mizhenna or the fiasco that was "Baldur's Gate Gate", it was a very difficult time for many people on these forums (both for Beamdog supporters and detractors) with a lot of harsh words and very very ugly posts made on both sides.
Further, if you are aligned with or associate yourself with the Gamer's Gate group, I STRONGLY recommend you read the link above and do your own research about the group before engaging with it.
I'm not telling you to censor yourself, a well thought out opinion is always appreciated, regardless of whether that opinion is for or against Beamdog as a company or the products it produces. However, as with any potentially vitriolic topic care needs to be taken in how it's addressed. I doubt you go in to your School or Place of work and spout about how much you love or hate the outcome of the last presidential election at the top of your lungs, I doubt you crow (one way or the other) about your beliefs on political leanings such as the death penalty, abortion, Religion or Immigration to the world at large in a large social setting.
I'm not suggesting that the conversation around Mizhena reaches anything close to the importance of any of the above, I'm simply suggesting that when it comes to difficult conversations, as a society we generally don't hold those openly in public spaces because we respect that those around us may have differing opinions that we do. And while the opinion of what makes SoD A good or bad game is absolutely relevant on this forum (and Mizhena might be a factor in that) focusing on such a small subsection of a 60+ hour gameplay game will absolutely lump you in with a group you may not wish to be lumped in with. And when that happens, complaining that people aren't hearing your intent for your words, or that people are putting words in your mouth that you never intended WILL fall on deaf ears
The issue with this conversation is it does bring in conversations about the larger social issues of Women's Rights, the Rights of the LGBT Community, Religion, Politics and other very very deep and socially divisive topics. Those who address this topic may not mean to discuss LGBT Rights or how Women are treated in society, but the moment this topic comes those social issues are most certainly front and center in the minds of most on this forum.
Again, my intent with this post is to provide a different perspective, not to call anyone out for an improper post.
Apparently, a ")" At the end of a name is still treated as part of the "@" thus it's likely you weren't properly tagged. I like to make sure everyone I respond to does, indeed, know. It gives you the opportunity to respond if you wish.
I like to play fair with those I dialog with.
Still not as bad as twitter, they are beyond hope. Then they wonder why they stocks drop to the floor... No I self identified myself as their kindred in this thread, knowing quite well I will receive a backlash from hell from some people here that I shall not name. I was also around when these so called "OMG trans" threads appeared here (I wasn't vocal though, a silent browser so to speak). It was nasty on both sides, but I think "OMG bad writing" or "OMG forced politics" is more accurate....
TBH I don't like either side of the spectrum being labelled with "SJW" or "bigots" respectively. 99% of people on either side of the extremes imho are just normal people being sensible it was the media blew both sides into the boogeyman (I am looking at you polygon). On a side note, this thread I waited for a multitude of people to mention Mizhena before I did. I don't like bringing her up first This is my first major point of disagreement with you. Both sides lumping each other with name calling is completely idiotic.
I can safely assume I have read more Kokatu-in-action threads than most people here.... naturally. Gaters there (or any conservatives in general) that are "women haters" are incredibly small, a minority of a minority. As I said before the vast majority on both sides seem like normal rational humans. It would as insane as me saying people here are male haters, maybe one or 2 ultra progressives actually do hate males (hashtag kill all white men?) but the vast majority on either side don't view genitalia as Ambers main problem. People can lump me in with whatever they wish. Some people called my collective group fat already lol, it doesn't get worse than that
Even so with this mysterious upcoming patch supposedly improving her that no one knows much about? What better time to talk about her? Yes it is divisive but Amber Scott imho broke that ice with extreme politics. On a side note, what on earth is the new patch going to do with her anyway? Is Mizhena going to remain minor and irrelevant?
I hope so. Because it's pretty clear that most of the haters are just going to hate. Caving to them is a trap which will allow them to complain so more. She's trans. Who cares? She mentions it like its nothing and that's a good thing. Having her 'have to be' a major fleshed out character just enforces the notion that trans is 'other' and has to stand out.
This is basically the "We Are All Individuals" sketch playing itself out. GamerGaters don't get to act like drones reciting the party line over and over and then complain they're being lumped together.
Use me as an example here, when I said:
"I think mizhena has the potential to be an awesome character, she has a sweet voice, interesting virtues etc"
...do you really think I am liar trying to lay a [transphobic-trap] here just so I can complain more?
Yes no one has to be "major" though how else do you plan on slowly healing the SoD divide in the BG fan community and Treant already mentioned adding more to her should have happened so I revived my faith in beamdog and eventually bought the game. Look if you really think we are all just fake bigots laying traps then prove us wrong. Flesh her out if for no other reason than to expose us for the frauds you think we are...
These "people" and I use that as a biological term only, are doing that and worse. You really are trying to tell me all of those "people" really want what amounts to Thalantyr fleshed out more?
I say bullshit. They will continue to attack the only trans NPC and will continue targeting the only female writer. Because trolling, doxying, harassment, death/rape threats and review/poll bombing is what they do. And caving in to their demands, even when one of them pretends to be reasonable, will not end well.
If someone is interested and wants to explore her character further then that can be done in a mod - as with many existing NPCs.
As a final piece of advice: You do yourself and your argument NO CREDIT by calling out specific developers or writers as a focus for your opinions. You have been corrected on this already in this thread.
If you'd like not to be lumped in with the exceptionally public and vocal "minority" ("Gaters there (or any conservatives in general) that are "women haters" are incredibly small, a minority of a minority.") a great place to start would be to recognize the following 2 points:
1) No single person could have created, written or implemented (or did create, write or implement) any part of Siege of Dragonspear you object to. Calling out any specific person as the "villain" or "culprit" makes your argument and opinion (at best) immediately suspect and is a primary cause for you to be lumped in with the worst of your group (whatever percentage that is).
2) Recognize that when you align yourself with a group which has exceptionally vocal people who are seen to be exceptionally Misogynistic (among other faults), and then go on to INCORRECTLY blame a single FEMALE person on staff for your perceived Ills, you are ONLY adding fuel to the fire you are objecting to. Fair or unfair, when you speak in the voice of a group you take on the persona of that group.
If you really do want your opinions to be taken as anything other than yet another gamer's gate thread, that would be a great place to start.
I've seen that request more times than I can remember by now and I have still not seen why she has been singled out as the only minor vendor that needs to become something more. Many ppl have also made accurate comparisons to other vendors from old BG1&2 which has never been requested to be fleshed out more than what they already are, but still no reply. I believe this is one of the reasons why ppl lump together GG'ers with women haters etc, since the issue of single out one character in need of fleshing out that just happens to be trans ofc begs the question: why only her and no other?
@Teo_live, I would appreciate if you could take the time to educate me as I am thoroughly interested.
If this post comes across as sarcastic, I'll just say here that it isn't. I'm genuinely intrigued and perplexed.
As a result of that, we end up trying to intellectualize and rationalize responses when there are no deeper meanings. This person is just the latest in a long, long line of small-minded bigots who show up, spew their monotonous misinformed opinions all over the forum, argue with everyone that they're the ones being discriminated against, and ultimately either get banned or lose interest in favor of their next victim. It's all in the archived and locked threads here, in black and white. Same exact pattern each time.
That's why it's such a waste of time to try and engage with them on any deeper level. This person has been repeatedly made aware of the fact that Amber Scott is a very small part of the machine, and their next post was "Amber Scott broke the ice with extreme politics." What are you supposed to do with that? What's the point in asking them to elaborate? This is all there is.
(This is also why I find @semiticgod's comparison to be rather troubling - setting aside the obvious counter of "Drizzt respects everyone, but he also decapitates trolls without a second thought", @Kurona has it: not all opinions are equal, or equally valid. I will not respect someone who demonizes women out of ignorance, nor should the Site Rules be invoked to equalize or normalize that kind of behavior.)
You have recently purchased SoD, and I highly appreciate it. Now maybe it's time for you to give it a go, play the expansion till the end, see what it is about and what it does offer, and maybe only afterwards return to the topic of Mizhena (if you will want to return to this topic after trying SoD).
As I've said twice in this thread already, SoD is not about Mizhena, and the review in the OP has managed to look at other things in the expansion. This thread has remained civil and it will continue to do so, especially if we don't generalize and don't speak about intelligence of other posters. A moderator has already quoted the rule to respect each other, @shawne .
Artists can't have it both ways, saying "I did that! Me, me!" when their contributions are applauded, but then hiding behind the corporate machine and saying "Nothing to do with me, guv!" when there's criticism. Both Andrew and Amber (as the two main writers for SoD) have been happy to accept praise (and rightly so) for some of their work, and so far as I am aware (and to their credit) neither has been so hypocritical as to deny responsibility for other details which have been criticised.
I have persistently assumed that Amber Scott wrote Mizhena because I vaguely recall an interview in which (it seemed to me that) she took responsibility for having done so. However, I don't now remember the details, so perhaps I may have misinterpreted what she said, or perhaps I was misled by incorrect assertions from others. I haven't previously corrected the attribution, because I've never before seen anyone suggest that it was incorrect - if anyone did, then I missed it. It seems previously to have been uncontroversial that Mizhena was Amber's creation. If that's not so, then I'll happily stand corrected (although in the latter case I'll be interested to hear who else's idea it was).
None of this is anything to do with Amber's sex, that's utterly coincidental and irrelevant. It's an absurd suggestion (by @Grum, for example) that one is a misogynist merely because one criticises something which happens to have been (or which I believed, possibly incorrectly, had been acknowledged to have been) written by someone who irrelevantly happens to be female. In other threads, I've criticised some of Andrew's contributions (e.g. Hexxat), yet somehow no-one thought to accuse me of misandry merely because he's male.
@JuliusBorisov Right you are. The dust was pretty much settled by page 4 imo all sides had good input, in hindsight I would have left it at that.
One final question though before I temporarily abandon this thread, where do we find information about the up coming patch changes and it's release date? As you can tell, I am interested... I can't find any details about it though
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/61876/bg-sod-bgii-v-2-4-what-will-it-add-change/ with several things highlighted and news about the Mizhena update.