Of course it is, but this one could easily have been called by foresight instead.
If Amber Scott had told us in advance that she was planning to write irrelevant and provocative controversy into SoD merely to wave a placard for her personal issues, then I (and no doubt others too) would certainly have pointed out that this would obviously cause trouble and be a significant commercial handicap for the product, as indeed has clearly turned out to be the case.
If Trent Oster and Phil Daigle hadn't already realised this (as apparently they hadn't), then seeing such a discussion might have caused them to wake up and grasp the realities of their market a little better, and they could then have exercised some editorial control to say "no, sorry Amber, we're not going to do that", instead of (apparently) sleep-walking into a minefield.
Personally, I have enjoyed playing SoD and will continue to play it, but the fact that other people have been put off from buying it is not only obvious but was also entirely predictable. I'm a fan of Trent's and Phil's commitment and ambition, but it's shaken my faith in their commercial sense that they seem not to have realised that Amber's plans were contrary to the interests of the company.
@TrentOster - I wish you well, so I'll make you an offer: next time round, I'll sign an NDA, and you can send me the drafts of what your writers are producing, and I'll review the material and advise whether there's anything in it which looks like an obvious commercial gaffe. An independent review process would probably keep your investors happier.
Something tells me they'll be more careful in the future, yes. ^_^
Yes, and I ruddy well hope so! I want Beamdog to succeed, not sink themselves by another cock-up.
My point, though, is that in order to show investors that they are indeed taking concrete steps to guard against it happening again, it'd be a smart move to arrange for confidential review by someone who is not influenced by the ambient opinions inside their office.
Games are an escape from reality for many. It makes me wonder why an indie house developer would take a risk with almost no perceivable upside and potentially future crippling downside.
Equality is a battle fought in the hearts and minds of people, not in front of a keyboard.
Fiction, in all its forms, has always been fertile ground for exploring the limits of current cultural norms. The keyboard has been a powerful tool in this exploration, just as the pen before it. Should Gene Roddenberry have been told not to do anything controversial on Star Trek, like having a black female bridge officer or the Kirk-Uhura kiss in "Plato's Stepchildren", because TV is just an escape?
Personally, I didn't find the interaction with Mizhena to be outside the norm for minor NPCs in these games. You meet an NPC , they tell you about themselves and/or their situation in 1-2 lines of dialog, and then give you a quest, item, piece of information, etc.. If one wants to argue the Beamdog could have written Mizhena better, fine. They've already said as much. But to suggest they shouldn't have included her at all because "[g]ames are an escape from reality" is just crap.
Perhaps in the Realms, Mizhena's gender identity is not a big deal, so she feels comfortable sharing the origin of her name with a new acquaintance. Similarly, in the context of the Star Trek universe, Uhura being a bridge officer was also perfectly normal, so no one makes a Big Deal about her ethnicity (of course, it was a Big Deal outside of the show).
Personally, I didn't find the interaction with Mizhena to be outside the norm for minor NPCs in these games. You meet an NPC , they tell you about themselves and/or their situation in 1-2 lines of dialog, and then give you a quest, item, piece of information, etc.. If one wants to argue the Beamdog could have written Mizhena better, fine. They've already said as much. But to suggest they shouldn't have included her at all because "[g]ames are an escape from reality" is just crap.
I agree with that. The writing may not be brilliant, but it's on a par with the bulk of the writing in Baldur's Gate. I don't object to the sentiments expressed, nor do I think it's odd that Mizhena is providing personal information about herself during such a short interaction - that's the case with virtually every minor NPC quest in the game. If you had to plough through several screens full of dialogue every time you wanted to get a quest the game would soon seem unplayable .
Where I do think Amber / Beamdog made a mistake was in the way they presented the game. Rather than just letting the game stand on its own merits it was deliberately presented as more 'modern' and standing for liberal values. I suspect without those announcements there would never have been any controversy about Mizhena (though the now deleted reference to Gamergate may well still have ruffled feathers). That type of presentation may of course have been deliberate in order to get more press coverage and stir up more interest, but that wouldn't have been my choice of a way to do business.
Equality is a battle fought in the hearts and minds of people, not in front of a keyboard.
Incorrect. The battle for equality has been fought with the written word since the birth of the printing machine (and ofc before that as well, but with more rudimentary means). EDIT: This is exaggerated ofc, but you get the point.
You do the same mistake as have been seen so many times in forums this last year or so, you take your personal opinions and pawn them of as universal truths. You believe that just because you use games as escapism, everyone else (or at least, most others) thinks the same. You think that just because you are a nice guy IRL even without positive influence from games/literature/media, everyone else can be as well. That someone people will find it in their hearts to be open for equality and help others without that external influence that comes from reading/watching/playing.
It's ok to think that, it's ok to believe that and to express that, but I'm just giving you the advice to not believe in your own truths as being the same for everyone else.
The funny thing about all this is that if it hadn't been for all the forum posts in the subject I wouldn't even have remembered the NPC in question, not her name, not her purpose. I seldom use vendor clerics other than for an occasional restoration or for rep changes and their names are irrelevant.
Yes Yes we all appluad Swift extolling the exploited Irish as a white English oversight power through his writs. And of course Amber and the crew thought they coukd enlighten old Fat White Privileged Empowered striaght close minded men somehow. Or they assumed thier cutural Marxists consumer base would swell and bloat their coffers and let the old portly Girl in chainmail dnd white nerds go buy something else with a net gain in PC buyers negating the crybaby I like my women boring Gangstas.
But they underestimated the Dark Side of the Force. And in the end they bowed to the Sith Lards and admitted their controversial mistakes.
But the bottom line is they made choices as an Indie developer and now they have limited their future maket viability with Game prodution funders who are purely responsible to greedy stock holders and possess no other agenda then sales.
They got my gold and I am fine with the product overall. I can choose to take Glint as a thief and leave hateful Safina behind. And I took care of Corwin in the camp this time... not sure if She will be in the end agian maybe as a gelatinous cube of chunks?
I had no idea, and could care less about some angered nerds that stems from some soured boy girl relationship. Nasty unwed nasty doing is nasty and leads to mor nastiness. I had to google the gamergate drama to even know what it is. I can tell you the capital of all 20+ countries I exploited and degraded living in them but I don't follow drivel drama in the internet. Anyway I am just pleased they made nice switchable weapon slots and I will continue to enjoy it in my moutain cabin off grid in Montana wgen I get back to the usa off tgis contract. meanwhile you all will be cannibal gang fighting in the cities as China takes over after the total economic collapse like Venezuela . I just wish Beamdawg can get more funding and make another DnD game before the big crash hits. But now I am unsure they will get funded.
If one wants to argue the Beamdog could have written Mizhena better, fine. They've already said as much. But to suggest they shouldn't have included her at all because "[g]ames are an escape from reality" is just crap.
...And this is why I am glad to have joined these forums to dispel these strawmen people refer to. Most people (even on my side of the far-right gater fence) were definitely not saying Mizhena as a trans removes escapism. How people jumped to the insane conclusion that we are "bigots who don't like trans" is beyond me.
The entire escapism argument was from what I could see to escape from real world POLITICS such as lgb propaganda, forced status quo checkboxes, virtue signalling etc and Amber confirmed suspicions of this. The inability to be rude/evil to Mizhena and no explanation as to why a battle rich cleric prefers not to change her sex via magical means didn't help the cause.
In laymen terms, Mizhena needed to be fleshed out and playable and even romancable much more than a nobody character like Safana.
The update on the Mizhena dialogue will come as a part of the 2.4 patch.
OK... this sounds promising I must admit.
Please make an announcement or something when the patch gets released so we know about. I will happily buy this game even at full price to give it a chance you think it deserves. I have high hopes for the improved Mizhena
It sounds like the two of you are implying that Mizhena was a character I was offended by. That's not true and I didn't even mention her in the post quoted. She should have been a joinable NPC that we came to enjoy, value, and potentially fall in love with. It would have been epic if she sacrificed herself in the final battle to save CHARNAME (maybe even Caelar) dramatically.
Words mean nothing unless the person writing them believes in them to the point they will back them up with action. So if someone is big into social issues and thinks writing on Facebook or a forum is enough, (in my opinion) it's not enough. For me it's not enough to wave the flag of some issue and then stand on the side lines. There is far too much hypocrisy today.
Does @Amber_Scott work for Beamdog currently? I ask because I'm a lurker on the forum and haven't seen her around. Amber has sacrificed plenty. It could have been done more as a caress of the cheek than a punch in the arm. My question is, "was the intension to be provocative more than thought provoking?"
There's no reason politics and social issues can't be involved in entertainment, but there's a good way to go about it, and there's what happened with SoD. I honestly had no idea what GamerGate was and had to look it up to understand the fallout of the Minsc line in SoD. I personally thought it was funny because essentially that was Beamdog saying, "What's the BFD b#$%hes?!" And from the perspective of lifelong gamers it was still in fact a BFD. GamerGate is relatively fresh, it hasn't reached the nostalgia level yet. (Insert Member Berry, "'member GamerGate? Awe yeah, I 'member!)
The video game industry, just like most other entertainment industry doesn't have a strict code of ethics. It just took them a while to apply the Payola model from the radio business of the 80's and 90's. So stand by it. Gather the glory and/or live with the consequences.
I appreciate the time both of you took to respond to my ramblings.
"The funny thing about all this is that if it hadn't been for all the forum posts in the subject I wouldn't even have remembered the NPC in question, not her name, not her purpose. I seldom use vendor clerics other than for an occasional restoration or for rep changes and their names are irrelevant. "
Same for me and I dare say a lot of other players. And you have underlined why many were arguing that it was badly written.
Unfortunately, reviews/remarks/posts that "here was something badly written" were (deliberately??) mixed up with "you just don't like the idea bigot". The rest is history.
What I would say is, having politely asked Mizhena about her name on first meeting, was it so necessary to have that dialog option for ever after? There's a lot of people milling about in SOD, it did rub salt in the wound to inadvertantly click on Mizhena and always get a reminder of immersion breaking arguments going on.
I think we can all agree pushing divisive political agendas is a bad thing for any commercial product designed to appeal to the masses, but doubly so when you are adding content to a time-honored classic with a fanbase that will tear themselves apart should you stray too far from the feel of the original.
I love the BG series and since the release of SOD i've been preparing mod content, so i'm personally invested in the success of this series. All I hope is that they learned not to do this in the future and just stick to the entertainment factor.
@Teo_live If you haven't bought the game, it's totally worth it IF you generally love an enjoy BG. I've stated my hang ups with the game as it's hard to associate it as a game NOT attached to the drama. It feels more like IWD due to it's constraints of being between BG1&2, but you get to make some decent choices (think Good vs. Evil) that actually impact how the game plays out. There's also a handful of epic battles with 30+ people fighting all at once. Maaaaayyyyhemmm!!!
I pre-ordered with the OST personally, and I would have bought after the fact too. Ultimately it's my fault for not going to school to program and be part of the project. I'll live with that mistake 'til the day I die...
Someday our grandchildren will read this thread and realize how ridiculous we are.
I have a horrible feeling our great grandchildren, if they can read this at all, will be wondering how a generation became so priviledged they can spend hours discussing a minority issue when they are currently worrying where their next meal is coming from.
It sounds like the two of you are implying that Mizhena was a character I was offended by.
Sorry if my post came out that way. The third and last segment of my post was a more general response to one of the origins of all discussions regarding SoD and not a reply to what you had wrote in your post.
And you have underlined why many were arguing that it was badly written.
Naah, I haven't underlined any poor writing with that remark; I've underlined the ridiculously overcharged response from a portion of players (and many non-players) to a generic cleric vendor regarding a few snippets of dialogue. But lets not go there again, hehe..
Merry christmas to you all! I hope the passion and empathy of true christmas feelings wash over you all en masse and that you get to feel the love from your near and dear. Let's celebrate for a week and then focus on making 2017 a helluva lot better than 2016.
Sorry if my post came out that way. The third and last segment of my post was a more general response to one of the origins of all discussions regarding SoD and not a reply to what you had wrote in your post.
No worries. It seems like a lot of assumptions have been made from all angles regarding SoD. I didn't have a problem with any type of character, more the overt deviation from the source material that made the game feel, "self-aware(?)" like a robot who abruptly realizes it's being controlled remotely.
My initial reaction to this game was, "cool, I'm having a bit of fun." Having stepped away from the forum/related interwebs to avoid spoilers, I was completely unaware of the vitriol. Sorry, I know I'm behind the curve with this one.
My second reaction was, "oh $#!+, I hope this doesn't kill the franchise."
Please have a happy and safe holiday season everyone! Make someone smile today
It sounds like the two of you are implying that Mizhena was a character I was offended by. That's not true and I didn't even mention her in the post quoted. She should have been a joinable NPC that we came to enjoy, value, and potentially fall in love with. It would have been epic if she sacrificed herself in the final battle to save CHARNAME (maybe even Caelar) dramatically.
@Enilwyn - I never said you were offended by Mizhena. I first commented on your statement that the battle for equality is not fought in front of a keyboard, which I disagree with. The written word in all its forms: prose, poetry, script, and even video game, can be a powerful force in changing society.
I also included a response to your suggestion that Beamdog should have avoided taking a "risk" with SoD (see below). Based on the the rest of your comment talking about equality and your mention of having worked as a nurse for patients recovering from gender transition surgery, I inferred the "risk" was the inclusion of Mizhena.
The ONLY goal should have been to retain everyone who owned a copy of BG and ensure they bought SoD.
...
Games are an escape from reality for many. It makes me wonder why an indie house developer would take a risk with almost no perceivable upside and potentially future crippling downside.
Regarding your suggestion above that Mizhena should have been a joinable NPC. Sure, Mizhena as a joinable NPC could have been a great addition to the game, but why must a transgendered NPC have an epic storyline where she sacrifices herself? Why can't she be a minor NPC cleric who happens to be transgendered?
If one wants to argue the Beamdog could have written Mizhena better, fine. They've already said as much. But to suggest they shouldn't have included her at all because "[g]ames are an escape from reality" is just crap.
...And this is why I am glad to have joined these forums to dispel these strawmen people refer to. Most people (even on my side of the far-right gater fence) were definitely not saying Mizhena as a trans removes escapism. How people jumped to the insane conclusion that we are "bigots who don't like trans" is beyond me.
I never said anything of the sort. I was responding to Enilwyn's suggestion that including Mizhena was "risk" that Beamdog should have avoided because "[g]ames are an escape from reality".
The ONLY goal should have been to retain everyone who owned a copy of BG and ensure they bought SoD.
...
Games are an escape from reality for many. It makes me wonder why an indie house developer would take a risk with almost no perceivable upside and potentially future crippling downside.
The entire escapism argument was from what I could see to escape from real world POLITICS such as lgb propaganda, forced status quo checkboxes, virtue signalling etc and Amber confirmed suspicions of this. The inability to be rude/evil to Mizhena and no explanation as to why a battle rich cleric prefers not to change her sex via magical means didn't help the cause.
In laymen terms, Mizhena needed to be fleshed out and playable and even romancable much more than a nobody character like Safana.
While I would welcome Mizhena as a joinable NPC (more joinable NPCs = more replayability!), I reject the idea that a transgendered NPC must be joinable to be included in the game. Why can't a minor NPC be LGBTQ, whether that NPC is a cleric providing healing services who happens to be transgender or a refugee mourning the loss of his husband (as another possible example)?
Also, there are plenty of minor NPCs you can't be evil/rude to, even in the original game. As an example, Mirianne in Beregost. You meet her and upon talking to her, the following is quest is added to your journal:
Mirianne's Husband I was moved by the pleas of Mirianne of Beregost today. Her husband, Roe, had to make a trip south to Amn, and she is understandably worried for his safety. I have sworn to keep my eyes open for any news of relevance I might encounter in my journeys down that road.
There's no option to mock her for her loss (even at the end of the quest), refuse the quest, or even demand payment up front for your services (so you can't be evil, rude, or even mercenary about it). I'm not going to bother to catalog them all, but there are plenty more minor NPCs for which there are no "evil/rude" dialog options (there are some, yes, but not every minor NPC has such options). So, why should it be a requirement that the player be given the option to be rude to a transgendered person?
Finally, not all transgendered people desire to make their physical sex align with their gender identity. Mizhena can be transgender even if she doesn't want to physically change her body.
Transgender (adj.) An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures.
@Enilwyn - I never said you were offended by Mizhena. I first commented on your statement that the battle for equality is not fought in front of a keyboard, which I disagree with. The written word in all its forms: prose, poetry, script, and even video game, can be a powerful force in changing society.
Can be, but rarely is these days.
If you're using SoD as your example, that's done more to harm the cause than help it. Mizhena wasn't a risk. People need to stop scapegoating her as the reason the game wasn't well received. Give her the belt from BG1. She doesn't even have to put it on if she doesn't feel like it. Lady's choice.
The risk Beamdog took was inserting ANY agenda into a well loved established IP (and not their own IP). This risk was exacerbated by the assumption that gamers would have gotten over Gamergate. Honest, I had to look it up to see what the big deal was. It turns out people don't like being stereotyped...there's some level of irony there you've just got to love!
The writing could have been thoughtful, less clichéd, cleverly subtle, more persuasive, and people would have received it better. From Skie, to Jaheira, to Safana, to Miki, to Corwin, to Corwin's daughter, to Caelar...they are seven shades of the same boring theme. Want diversity in your video games? Make sure it's interesting first.
Some people here seriously need to get over themselves. Thinking that a game featuring characters who defy their little precious sheltered worldview as a political attack of some sort is the most pathetic thing I've seen in a long time.
Some people here seriously need to get over themselves. Thinking that a game featuring characters who defy their little precious sheltered worldview as a political attack of some sort is the most pathetic thing I've seen in a long time.
While I would welcome Mizhena as a joinable NPC (more joinable NPCs = more replayability!), I reject the idea that a transgendered NPC must be joinable to be included in the game. Why can't a minor NPC be LGBTQ,
It just felt so unnaturally forced though, It was like Amber Scott thought "oh crap I forgot the T part of the LGBTQ, lets throw in a lazy token last minute so I show others how progressive I am". Then people got called "transphobic" for merely pointing this out?
TBH I don't find this behavior uncommon for extreme progressives, it is why I call it the "LGB" movement purposefully omitting the T part of the name as I have lost count of the amount of times it seems their representation by the movement is just forced/faked.
Also, there are plenty of minor NPCs you can't be evil/rude to, even in the original game.
...And this was one of the many flaws in the original game.
However unlike SoD, this felt like a genuine oversight due to time constraints while not being able to be rude to Mizhena felt more like forced political correctness. Amber already confirmed this suspicion in her interview...
Finally, not all transgendered people desire to make their physical sex align with their gender identity. Mizhena can be transgender even if she doesn't want to physically change her body.
So why can't Mizhena explain herself? She is willing to tell us every other god damn thing about her life
Some people here seriously need to get over themselves. Thinking that a game featuring characters who defy their little precious sheltered worldview as a political attack of some sort is the most pathetic thing I've seen in a long time.
If ever there was an example of why this row has gone on so long, this is it.
It's the same thing for the better part of a year now - every single thread discussing the expansion's merits will inevitably attract people all too willing to keep crapping all over these boards with the same rhetoric - Amber Scott is the devil, Beamdog has brought this controversy upon themselves, SJW this, liberal that, etc. The people change every now and then, but the stupid remarks are always the same. In the case of this particular thread it's under the guise of civil debate.
Look, guys, you're not fooling anyone. And you should go away. A lot of people here can successfully ignore you, but every now and then someone else is going to get fed up and call you out on your bullshit. And then you play the victim. Well, you're not. The row goes on for so long because you keep coming back. And having to put up with this casual, nonchalant, thinly veiled hate speech eventually gets on people's nerves.
Comments
If Amber Scott had told us in advance that she was planning to write irrelevant and provocative controversy into SoD merely to wave a placard for her personal issues, then I (and no doubt others too) would certainly have pointed out that this would obviously cause trouble and be a significant commercial handicap for the product, as indeed has clearly turned out to be the case.
If Trent Oster and Phil Daigle hadn't already realised this (as apparently they hadn't), then seeing such a discussion might have caused them to wake up and grasp the realities of their market a little better, and they could then have exercised some editorial control to say "no, sorry Amber, we're not going to do that", instead of (apparently) sleep-walking into a minefield.
Personally, I have enjoyed playing SoD and will continue to play it, but the fact that other people have been put off from buying it is not only obvious but was also entirely predictable. I'm a fan of Trent's and Phil's commitment and ambition, but it's shaken my faith in their commercial sense that they seem not to have realised that Amber's plans were contrary to the interests of the company.
@TrentOster - I wish you well, so I'll make you an offer: next time round, I'll sign an NDA, and you can send me the drafts of what your writers are producing, and I'll review the material and advise whether there's anything in it which looks like an obvious commercial gaffe. An independent review process would probably keep your investors happier.
My point, though, is that in order to show investors that they are indeed taking concrete steps to guard against it happening again, it'd be a smart move to arrange for confidential review by someone who is not influenced by the ambient opinions inside their office.
Personally, I didn't find the interaction with Mizhena to be outside the norm for minor NPCs in these games. You meet an NPC , they tell you about themselves and/or their situation in 1-2 lines of dialog, and then give you a quest, item, piece of information, etc.. If one wants to argue the Beamdog could have written Mizhena better, fine. They've already said as much. But to suggest they shouldn't have included her at all because "[g]ames are an escape from reality" is just crap.
Perhaps in the Realms, Mizhena's gender identity is not a big deal, so she feels comfortable sharing the origin of her name with a new acquaintance. Similarly, in the context of the Star Trek universe, Uhura being a bridge officer was also perfectly normal, so no one makes a Big Deal about her ethnicity (of course, it was a Big Deal outside of the show).
Where I do think Amber / Beamdog made a mistake was in the way they presented the game. Rather than just letting the game stand on its own merits it was deliberately presented as more 'modern' and standing for liberal values. I suspect without those announcements there would never have been any controversy about Mizhena (though the now deleted reference to Gamergate may well still have ruffled feathers). That type of presentation may of course have been deliberate in order to get more press coverage and stir up more interest, but that wouldn't have been my choice of a way to do business.
EDIT: This is exaggerated ofc, but you get the point.
You do the same mistake as have been seen so many times in forums this last year or so, you take your personal opinions and pawn them of as universal truths. You believe that just because you use games as escapism, everyone else (or at least, most others) thinks the same. You think that just because you are a nice guy IRL even without positive influence from games/literature/media, everyone else can be as well. That someone people will find it in their hearts to be open for equality and help others without that external influence that comes from reading/watching/playing.
It's ok to think that, it's ok to believe that and to express that, but I'm just giving you the advice to not believe in your own truths as being the same for everyone else.
The funny thing about all this is that if it hadn't been for all the forum posts in the subject I wouldn't even have remembered the NPC in question, not her name, not her purpose. I seldom use vendor clerics other than for an occasional restoration or for rep changes and their names are irrelevant.
But they underestimated the Dark Side of the Force. And in the end they bowed to the Sith Lards and admitted their controversial mistakes.
But the bottom line is they made choices as an Indie developer and now they have limited their future maket viability with Game prodution funders who are purely responsible to greedy stock holders and possess no other agenda then sales.
They got my gold and I am fine with the product overall. I can choose to take Glint as a thief and leave hateful Safina behind. And I took care of Corwin in the camp this time... not sure if She will be in the end agian maybe as a gelatinous cube of chunks?
I had no idea, and could care less about some angered nerds that stems from some soured boy girl relationship. Nasty unwed nasty doing is nasty and leads to mor nastiness. I had to google the gamergate drama to even know what it is. I can tell you the capital of all 20+ countries I exploited and degraded living in them but I don't follow drivel drama in the internet. Anyway I am just pleased they made nice switchable weapon slots and I will continue to enjoy it in my moutain cabin off grid in Montana wgen I get back to the usa off tgis contract. meanwhile you all will be cannibal gang fighting in the cities as China takes over after the total economic collapse like Venezuela . I just wish Beamdawg can get more funding and make another DnD game before the big crash hits. But now I am unsure they will get funded.
Edit: this was in reply to a post which have since been removed. This post might as well be removed as well, @JuliusBorisov.
The entire escapism argument was from what I could see to escape from real world POLITICS such as lgb propaganda, forced status quo checkboxes, virtue signalling etc and Amber confirmed suspicions of this. The inability to be rude/evil to Mizhena and no explanation as to why a battle rich cleric prefers not to change her sex via magical means didn't help the cause.
In laymen terms, Mizhena needed to be fleshed out and playable and even romancable much more than a nobody character like Safana. OK... this sounds promising I must admit.
Please make an announcement or something when the patch gets released so we know about. I will happily buy this game even at full price to give it a chance you think it deserves. I have high hopes for the improved Mizhena
TL:DR - I still can't get over this debacle.
It sounds like the two of you are implying that Mizhena was a character I was offended by. That's not true and I didn't even mention her in the post quoted. She should have been a joinable NPC that we came to enjoy, value, and potentially fall in love with. It would have been epic if she sacrificed herself in the final battle to save CHARNAME (maybe even Caelar) dramatically.
Words mean nothing unless the person writing them believes in them to the point they will back them up with action. So if someone is big into social issues and thinks writing on Facebook or a forum is enough, (in my opinion) it's not enough. For me it's not enough to wave the flag of some issue and then stand on the side lines. There is far too much hypocrisy today.
Does @Amber_Scott work for Beamdog currently? I ask because I'm a lurker on the forum and haven't seen her around. Amber has sacrificed plenty. It could have been done more as a caress of the cheek than a punch in the arm. My question is, "was the intension to be provocative more than thought provoking?"
There's no reason politics and social issues can't be involved in entertainment, but there's a good way to go about it, and there's what happened with SoD. I honestly had no idea what GamerGate was and had to look it up to understand the fallout of the Minsc line in SoD. I personally thought it was funny because essentially that was Beamdog saying, "What's the BFD b#$%hes?!" And from the perspective of lifelong gamers it was still in fact a BFD. GamerGate is relatively fresh, it hasn't reached the nostalgia level yet. (Insert Member Berry, "'member GamerGate? Awe yeah, I 'member!)
The video game industry, just like most other entertainment industry doesn't have a strict code of ethics. It just took them a while to apply the Payola model from the radio business of the 80's and 90's. So stand by it. Gather the glory and/or live with the consequences.
I appreciate the time both of you took to respond to my ramblings.
"The funny thing about all this is that if it hadn't been for all the forum posts in the subject I wouldn't even have remembered the NPC in question, not her name, not her purpose. I seldom use vendor clerics other than for an occasional restoration or for rep changes and their names are irrelevant. "
Same for me and I dare say a lot of other players.
And you have underlined why many were arguing that it was badly written.
Unfortunately, reviews/remarks/posts that "here was something badly written" were (deliberately??) mixed up with "you just don't like the idea bigot".
The rest is history.
What I would say is, having politely asked Mizhena about her name on first meeting, was it so necessary to have that dialog option for ever after?
There's a lot of people milling about in SOD, it did rub salt in the wound to inadvertantly click on Mizhena and always get a reminder of immersion breaking arguments going on.
I love the BG series and since the release of SOD i've been preparing mod content, so i'm personally invested in the success of this series. All I hope is that they learned not to do this in the future and just stick to the entertainment factor.
I pre-ordered with the OST personally, and I would have bought after the fact too. Ultimately it's my fault for not going to school to program and be part of the project. I'll live with that mistake 'til the day I die...
Merry christmas to you all! I hope the passion and empathy of true christmas feelings wash over you all en masse and that you get to feel the love from your near and dear. Let's celebrate for a week and then focus on making 2017 a helluva lot better than 2016.
My initial reaction to this game was, "cool, I'm having a bit of fun." Having stepped away from the forum/related interwebs to avoid spoilers, I was completely unaware of the vitriol. Sorry, I know I'm behind the curve with this one.
My second reaction was, "oh $#!+, I hope this doesn't kill the franchise."
Please have a happy and safe holiday season everyone! Make someone smile today
I also included a response to your suggestion that Beamdog should have avoided taking a "risk" with SoD (see below). Based on the the rest of your comment talking about equality and your mention of having worked as a nurse for patients recovering from gender transition surgery, I inferred the "risk" was the inclusion of Mizhena. Regarding your suggestion above that Mizhena should have been a joinable NPC. Sure, Mizhena as a joinable NPC could have been a great addition to the game, but why must a transgendered NPC have an epic storyline where she sacrifices herself? Why can't she be a minor NPC cleric who happens to be transgendered?
Also, there are plenty of minor NPCs you can't be evil/rude to, even in the original game. As an example, Mirianne in Beregost. You meet her and upon talking to her, the following is quest is added to your journal: There's no option to mock her for her loss (even at the end of the quest), refuse the quest, or even demand payment up front for your services (so you can't be evil, rude, or even mercenary about it). I'm not going to bother to catalog them all, but there are plenty more minor NPCs for which there are no "evil/rude" dialog options (there are some, yes, but not every minor NPC has such options). So, why should it be a requirement that the player be given the option to be rude to a transgendered person?
Finally, not all transgendered people desire to make their physical sex align with their gender identity. Mizhena can be transgender even if she doesn't want to physically change her body.
From the GLAAD website (emphasis mine): EDIT: Fixed a couple grammatical errors.
If you're using SoD as your example, that's done more to harm the cause than help it. Mizhena wasn't a risk. People need to stop scapegoating her as the reason the game wasn't well received. Give her the belt from BG1. She doesn't even have to put it on if she doesn't feel like it. Lady's choice.
The risk Beamdog took was inserting ANY agenda into a well loved established IP (and not their own IP). This risk was exacerbated by the assumption that gamers would have gotten over Gamergate. Honest, I had to look it up to see what the big deal was. It turns out people don't like being stereotyped...there's some level of irony there you've just got to love!
The writing could have been thoughtful, less clichéd, cleverly subtle, more persuasive, and people would have received it better. From Skie, to Jaheira, to Safana, to Miki, to Corwin, to Corwin's daughter, to Caelar...they are seven shades of the same boring theme. Want diversity in your video games? Make sure it's interesting first.
TBH I don't find this behavior uncommon for extreme progressives, it is why I call it the "LGB" movement purposefully omitting the T part of the name as I have lost count of the amount of times it seems their representation by the movement is just forced/faked. ...And this was one of the many flaws in the original game.
However unlike SoD, this felt like a genuine oversight due to time constraints while not being able to be rude to Mizhena felt more like forced political correctness. Amber already confirmed this suspicion in her interview... So why can't Mizhena explain herself? She is willing to tell us every other god damn thing about her life
It's the same thing for the better part of a year now - every single thread discussing the expansion's merits will inevitably attract people all too willing to keep crapping all over these boards with the same rhetoric - Amber Scott is the devil, Beamdog has brought this controversy upon themselves, SJW this, liberal that, etc. The people change every now and then, but the stupid remarks are always the same. In the case of this particular thread it's under the guise of civil debate.
Look, guys, you're not fooling anyone. And you should go away. A lot of people here can successfully ignore you, but every now and then someone else is going to get fed up and call you out on your bullshit. And then you play the victim. Well, you're not. The row goes on for so long because you keep coming back. And having to put up with this casual, nonchalant, thinly veiled hate speech eventually gets on people's nerves.