Most epic Nameless Mage - powergaming guide (spoilers ofc)
Hadar
Member Posts: 171
I'm powergamer. I love when my characters at the end of game are totally badass and god-like. So I often plan my gamethoughs to squeeze everything in order to get more powerful. I earlier had similar discussion about Mage/Cleric in BG saga ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/17545/the-most-epic-mage-cleric/p1 ).
Release of PSTEE is good reason to plan how should I powergame.
Firstly my character will be Lawful Good (I'm Lawful Good so always my avatars are Lawful Good). So LG Mage during game can obtain this attributes changes:
STR +4
DEX +1
CON +3
INT +5*
WIS +8 -1**
CHA +3 +2**
+2 to any attribute (Ancient Scroll)
*
** First my question is when I obtain Gordian Knot can I just change class to warrior by Dakkon, use the Knot, and change class back to mage by Dakkon? Is there is any drawback of this solution?
My goal is to have maximum 25 points in INT, WIS and CHA without tattoos by the end of game (I know that +2 WIS and +1 INT I will receive by end of the game, but the lacks of INT and WIS I can fill with tattoos and just change them before final encounter) .
So plan is to start with these stats (assuming I can use the Knot as in **):
STR 9
DEX 9
CON 9
INT 18
WIS 18
CHA 12
As early as it is possible I should buy tattoos with bonuses to WIS and CHA. And upon levelling up give 2 points in INT and then 8 points in CHA.
If I cannot use the Knot I can start WIS 17, CHA 13 and upon levelling up I must give 9 points in CHA.
But my second question is how much attributes points I get from levelling up? And how I should distribute it between STR, DEX and CON to become possibly most powerful?
And my third question is their any reason to level Nameless in Warrior or Thief class? Off course I know that 7th and 12th level I must first obtain in Mage class.
Release of PSTEE is good reason to plan how should I powergame.
Firstly my character will be Lawful Good (I'm Lawful Good so always my avatars are Lawful Good). So LG Mage during game can obtain this attributes changes:
STR +4
DEX +1
CON +3
INT +5*
WIS +8 -1**
CHA +3 +2**
+2 to any attribute (Ancient Scroll)
*
Torment wiki says "That makes the maximum permanent gain to intelligence possible +8, +4 without specializations, and +2 without the Ancient Scroll." and it makes +4 from specialization but it contradicts they own list:
"+1 from the 7th level Mage specialization
+2 from the 12th level Mage specialization
+1 from Ravel in her Maze. The chain starts off at Mebbeth's House in Ragpicker's Square. TNO has three options to reply with, and must choose either "Because I just want to know", or the unequivocally more advantageous reply, "Because I want power" (which ends up netting +1 Wisdom as well). This bonus is not immediately given; TNO must wait until the culmination of Mebbeth's question and TNO's answer in Ravel's Maze
+1 from the Practical Incarnation in the Fortress of Regrets
+2 from the Ancient Scroll"
I see here +3 from specialisation and +2 from NPCs so one point is missing or they have a mistake in their conclusion.
http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Intelligence
"+1 from the 7th level Mage specialization
+2 from the 12th level Mage specialization
+1 from Ravel in her Maze. The chain starts off at Mebbeth's House in Ragpicker's Square. TNO has three options to reply with, and must choose either "Because I just want to know", or the unequivocally more advantageous reply, "Because I want power" (which ends up netting +1 Wisdom as well). This bonus is not immediately given; TNO must wait until the culmination of Mebbeth's question and TNO's answer in Ravel's Maze
+1 from the Practical Incarnation in the Fortress of Regrets
+2 from the Ancient Scroll"
I see here +3 from specialisation and +2 from NPCs so one point is missing or they have a mistake in their conclusion.
http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Intelligence
** First my question is when I obtain Gordian Knot can I just change class to warrior by Dakkon, use the Knot, and change class back to mage by Dakkon? Is there is any drawback of this solution?
My goal is to have maximum 25 points in INT, WIS and CHA without tattoos by the end of game (I know that +2 WIS and +1 INT I will receive by end of the game, but the lacks of INT and WIS I can fill with tattoos and just change them before final encounter) .
So plan is to start with these stats (assuming I can use the Knot as in **):
STR 9
DEX 9
CON 9
INT 18
WIS 18
CHA 12
As early as it is possible I should buy tattoos with bonuses to WIS and CHA. And upon levelling up give 2 points in INT and then 8 points in CHA.
If I cannot use the Knot I can start WIS 17, CHA 13 and upon levelling up I must give 9 points in CHA.
But my second question is how much attributes points I get from levelling up? And how I should distribute it between STR, DEX and CON to become possibly most powerful?
And my third question is their any reason to level Nameless in Warrior or Thief class? Off course I know that 7th and 12th level I must first obtain in Mage class.
1
Comments
Max out Int and Wis, then work on Cha, then on Con. Int and Wis open more memories and more exp which causes you to level faster and get more spells. More memories also give you options to sail past problems without even fighting - Sherlock Holmes style.
Charisma of course opens more dialogue options and is advantageous for the same reasons.
I don't bother with spending Ability points on Str or Dex (or even usually Con) since 1) it takes a lot of points to get any real bonuses 2) there are plenty of ways to increase attack, damage, and hp with items and 3) you are immortal and survival isn't really important.
As far as I know item requirements only require you to meet them in the moment, hence I am reasonably sure you can class into fighter, use the Knot, then class back without issue.
There is NO reason to level in thief if you plan to go mage. Levels in fighter get you more hp. IMO, I class to mage as soon as possible (which you can do around level 4-5 fighter, depending on how long it takes you to get to Ragpickers Square), but in theory you could go to level 6 fighter to get the max HP bonus without losing any class bonuses from mage. I've never bothered to do that, however, as survival isn't really relevant (see my previous comment).
Off course I can play whole game through without bothering about nuances, but this time I want totally power game, but I don't know PST mechanics enough ( @JuliusBorisov I'm waiting for very detailed mechanics manual so I can figure it how to do it) so I ask for help.
I've always playing single class in PST. What I loss and what stays after switching class? HP? Trak0? AC? Weapon Proficiencies?
You only need to cross the wanted class' specialization first at lvl 7 so you need to complete mage's training before level 7.
You get one attribute point per level up.
Leveling in warrior is meaningless for a mage. Leveling in thief is
Switching classes loses you absolutely nothing. Switch at your whim.
Massive spoiler for highest stat checks in the game
CON: 21 (next highest is 12)
STR: 21 (next highest is 17, but only occurs if you are a fighter at the time; next highest for any class is 16)
INT: 21 (no checks above 19 until after the last 3rd of the game - single stat check in the game above 19. If you start with INT 15 as a mage, you'll have natural 19 at this point, +2 can be done by a single tattoo)
WIS: 24 (next highest is 22)
CHA: 25 (+ only 2 other checks above 18, offset with a tattoo/friends spell)
DEX: 19
For a power-gaming warrior, you just need to be aware of STR increments which use the heroic strength after 18 before 19. To get around that you NEED to have STR 18 at lv 6 as a warrior (so start with 15). At lv 7 you'll get +1 propelling you straight up to 19.
I actually know that INT above 19 is useless but is quite epic and in my powergaming epicness is the main goal. :P But still doesn't 20+ INT give you some Illusion Immunity, Lore, Chance to Learn Spell or abillity to regain memories?
But still I think that 25 INT, 25 WIS, 25 CHA is full epic for spell-casting class. ;P And it would hurt my pride to have lover INT, WIS and CHA than The Transcendent One. ;P
From the HP point of view I think It is the best to progress in this manner:
3-6 warrior
1-7 mage
7-11 warrior
8-12 mage
Is any level most profitable to first obtain it by thief?
But still doesn't 20+ INT give you some Illusion Immunity, Lore, Chance to Learn Spell or abillity to regain memories?
No; Yes, but so does WIS which is enough to ID everything; Yes, at INT 19 you have 100%; No, that's what WIS is for.
Is any level most profitable to first obtain it by thief? No.
Plus I don't recommend going 8-10 warrior because it hampers you for no other reason than extra 18hp. Meaningless difference. You'll have tons of life from constitution even as a mage.
So having 25 INT is only my fetish + little bit lore + and passing the checks of 21 INT without tattoos. :P
Anyone knows (summon: @JuliusBorisov ) how THAC0, Saving Throws, Weapon Proficiency, Attacks per Round, AC etc progress in each class? And do I keep this things after switching between classes?
Edit: Assuming that saving throws progress like in Baldur and character keeps ST after switching classes it would be profitable to obtain 17 level fighter before mage and then progress with mage at least up to 21 level. :P
3-6 warrior
1-7 mage
7-11 warrior
8-12 mage
12-17 warrior
13-21 mage
But it is only assuming that characters keep ST and they progress like in BG
For your other question, I suggest this link.
TL;DR
THAC0 progression:
Warrior -1 every level
Wizard -1 every 3 levels
Priest -2 every 3 levels
Rogue -1 every 2 levels
Bonus attacks are attained as a warrior at lv 7 (specialization +1/2 APR) and 12 (another +1/2 APR)
and from proficiency:
* - no malus
** - extra 1/2 APR
***
**** (only a specialized warrior can achieve this)
***** - extra 1/2 APR (only twice specialized warrior can achieve this)
AC stays the same for all classes and is governed by DEX. No armor whatsoever in the game.
You keep using THAC0 and saving throws granted by your best class even when
the class that grants those is inactive. (So a lv 6 warrior -> mage is an equivalent of a lv 19 mage in terms of THAC0)
Yes I know It would require an absurd amount of farming in UnderSigil and I don't know if I will have enough patience to do this. But still I want to know how in theory I could create the most epic Nameless One.
I still have a few questions.
1. How long in PT fighter THAC0 progress? On which level fighter aquires lowest THAC0 (if ever)
2. How long I get +1 attribute upon levelling up?
2. As long as you keep leveling.
1. Here is stated that "Fighter: 21 - your fighter level; no lower than 1" so it should be 20 level warrior?
2. So this basically mean that I can achieve 25 in every attribute?
3. Suppose that I am 6 lvl warrior so I've received 3 attributes points. Then I change class to mage - do I receive attributes points for levelling my mage between level 2-6? If yes then levelling thief up to level 11 would give 10 attributes points very cheaply... :P
Yes
No XD
So there is absolutely no point to progress in thief except maybe teaching Annah? I do not receive any extra Attributes, THAC0, Saving Throws, Weapon Proficiency, Attacks per Round, anything due to levelling thief if the warrior level is higher than the thief level?
I play Infinity Engine games my whole life and I probably never used backstap ability. xD Nevertheless the main class suppose to mage so I don't have any profit from thieving skills.
How saving throws?
In PST mages suffer one big problem. You can't rest in dungeons so you can easily run out of spells. Luckily TNO is a decent melee fighter even if he is a mage.
But you definitely want to have as much spells as you can, so every mage level counts, and wasting xp in other classes is pointless (if you want to be only a mage).
But levelling in warrior gives your mage better HP, THAC0, saving throws, proficiencies etc and do not restrain mage in any way, so it is advantageous to make those warrior levels. :P
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/865606/#Comment_865606
But point of this topic is to create the ultimate mage
But we were talking about levelling in thief. That's pointless!
Warrior levels give you THAC0, so definitely worthwhile anyway.
@rede9 But it is not the case. @Queegon though that all classes have the same hit points dices (so warrior, thief and mage can get maximum 10 HP per level), but it isn't true (at least without mods) because thief gets maximum 6 hit points per level and mage gets maximum 4 hit points per level.
Taken from official PST Manual:
"When the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he’ll start to
accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level)."
Yeah, that means a level 20+ TNO with a high constitution has something like 400+ HP and regenerates 2-3 hp per second.
The whole fragment says:
"The Nameless One is Different from your other Characters Your character is different from the other characters in your party. He’s immortal, that’s one big difference. Another is the way that he gains hit points and spells. The Nameless One starts the game as a third level warrior and a first level thief and mage. The Nameless One only gets experience in the class he is currently a member of — he switches classes by talking to people in the game. Furthermore, he cannot access any of the other classes’ abilities when he is specializing in one of the classes. The Nameless One only gains hit points when he gains a level in a class that’s higher than the maximum level he’s achieved in any of his other classes. For example, he starts off as a level three fighter and a level one mage and thief. When he gains enough experience to become a second level mage he won’t get any more hit points because his mage level (two) is still lower or equal to his fighter level (three). When the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he’ll start to accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level). The Nameless One often learns spells as a result of regaining the memory of how to cast a spell rather than be learning it anew. That means that although he could cast a new spell because it’s allowed by his level, he may still have to remember or relearn the spell before he can cast it."
Soooo...
1. TNO have d10 even after level 9? It it means that TNO can get 10 HP each level even at high levels?
2. So maybe TNO progress with saving rolls, THAC0 and weapon proficiencies in its own way like HP regardless his class?
2. You keep using THAC0, saving throws and proficiencies granted by your best class(so you always have the best possible) even when the class that grants those is inactive.
What is sure, however, is that TNO gets (at least until lvl 10) d10 hit points regardless of class (which is already big news).
For levels 11+ I think it was the reduced number, but if @Aranthys says it doesn't fall off at that point, it might go d10 all the way.
"For hit points and specialization the only class that counts is the one you're at when you first reach that level. If you are a fighter the first time you reach level 6 you get the usual 1d10 hit points. If you were a 6th level thief first, then you'd only get 1 hit point when you reached level 6 as a fighter.
My feeling is that the best path is to go to each level from 1-9 as a fighter, then get to 10 as a thief, and then go back to fighter for level 12. That gives you the maximum number of hit points . . . ."