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Most epic Nameless Mage - powergaming guide (spoilers ofc)

I'm powergamer. I love when my characters at the end of game are totally badass and god-like. So I often plan my gamethoughs to squeeze everything in order to get more powerful. I earlier had similar discussion about Mage/Cleric in BG saga ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/17545/the-most-epic-mage-cleric/p1 ).

Release of PSTEE is good reason to plan how should I powergame.

Firstly my character will be Lawful Good (I'm Lawful Good so always my avatars are Lawful Good). So LG Mage during game can obtain this attributes changes:

STR +4
DEX +1
CON +3
INT +5*
WIS +8 -1**
CHA +3 +2**
+2 to any attribute (Ancient Scroll)

*
Torment wiki says "That makes the maximum permanent gain to intelligence possible +8, +4 without specializations, and +2 without the Ancient Scroll." and it makes +4 from specialization but it contradicts they own list:
"+1 from the 7th level Mage specialization
+2 from the 12th level Mage specialization
+1 from Ravel in her Maze. The chain starts off at Mebbeth's House in Ragpicker's Square. TNO has three options to reply with, and must choose either "Because I just want to know", or the unequivocally more advantageous reply, "Because I want power" (which ends up netting +1 Wisdom as well). This bonus is not immediately given; TNO must wait until the culmination of Mebbeth's question and TNO's answer in Ravel's Maze
+1 from the Practical Incarnation in the Fortress of Regrets
+2 from the Ancient Scroll"

I see here +3 from specialisation and +2 from NPCs so one point is missing or they have a mistake in their conclusion.

http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Intelligence


** First my question is when I obtain Gordian Knot can I just change class to warrior by Dakkon, use the Knot, and change class back to mage by Dakkon? Is there is any drawback of this solution?

My goal is to have maximum 25 points in INT, WIS and CHA without tattoos by the end of game (I know that +2 WIS and +1 INT I will receive by end of the game, but the lacks of INT and WIS I can fill with tattoos and just change them before final encounter) .

So plan is to start with these stats (assuming I can use the Knot as in **):
STR 9
DEX 9
CON 9
INT 18
WIS 18
CHA 12

As early as it is possible I should buy tattoos with bonuses to WIS and CHA. And upon levelling up give 2 points in INT and then 8 points in CHA.

If I cannot use the Knot I can start WIS 17, CHA 13 and upon levelling up I must give 9 points in CHA.

But my second question is how much attributes points I get from levelling up? And how I should distribute it between STR, DEX and CON to become possibly most powerful?

And my third question is their any reason to level Nameless in Warrior or Thief class? Off course I know that 7th and 12th level I must first obtain in Mage class.
Teflon
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Comments

  • BaptorBaptor Member Posts: 158
    You've clearly thought this out more than me, but as a veteran of PST who's played it many times, I can definitely say you are on the right track.

    Max out Int and Wis, then work on Cha, then on Con. Int and Wis open more memories and more exp which causes you to level faster and get more spells. More memories also give you options to sail past problems without even fighting - Sherlock Holmes style.

    Charisma of course opens more dialogue options and is advantageous for the same reasons.

    I don't bother with spending Ability points on Str or Dex (or even usually Con) since 1) it takes a lot of points to get any real bonuses 2) there are plenty of ways to increase attack, damage, and hp with items and 3) you are immortal and survival isn't really important.

    As far as I know item requirements only require you to meet them in the moment, hence I am reasonably sure you can class into fighter, use the Knot, then class back without issue.

    There is NO reason to level in thief if you plan to go mage. Levels in fighter get you more hp. IMO, I class to mage as soon as possible (which you can do around level 4-5 fighter, depending on how long it takes you to get to Ragpickers Square), but in theory you could go to level 6 fighter to get the max HP bonus without losing any class bonuses from mage. I've never bothered to do that, however, as survival isn't really relevant (see my previous comment).
    GrifHadarTeflon
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    @Baptor

    Off course I can play whole game through without bothering about nuances, but this time I want totally power game, but I don't know PST mechanics enough ( @JuliusBorisov I'm waiting for very detailed mechanics manual so I can figure it how to do it) so I ask for help.

    I've always playing single class in PST. What I loss and what stays after switching class? HP? Trak0? AC? Weapon Proficiencies?
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    edited April 2
    You'll never need INT above 19 incl. mage spec. So count with that. STR and DEX are absolute dumpstats for mages. Only stat worth maxing for a mage is WIS, followed by CON - You'll have 23-25 by the end of the game. For CHA:
    You need CHA 25 only for a single companion check and you can get a portion of that from Friends spell. Other than that you may want 21 for a different companion's check and similar in the absolute end game. Don't go overboard.


    You only need to cross the wanted class' specialization first at lvl 7 so you need to complete mage's training before level 7.
    You get one attribute point per level up.
    Leveling in warrior is meaningless for a mage. Leveling in thief is
    useful for a couple of early levels to teach Annah some thievery - you need 50% in a thieving stat to be allowed to teach her some new tricks.


    Switching classes loses you absolutely nothing. Switch at your whim.


    Massive spoiler for highest stat checks in the game

    CON: 21 (next highest is 12)
    STR: 21 (next highest is 17, but only occurs if you are a fighter at the time; next highest for any class is 16)
    INT: 21 (no checks above 19 until after the last 3rd of the game - single stat check in the game above 19. If you start with INT 15 as a mage, you'll have natural 19 at this point, +2 can be done by a single tattoo)
    WIS: 24 (next highest is 22)
    CHA: 25 (+ only 2 other checks above 18, offset with a tattoo/friends spell)
    DEX: 19


    For a power-gaming warrior, you just need to be aware of STR increments which use the heroic strength after 18 before 19. To get around that you NEED to have STR 18 at lv 6 as a warrior (so start with 15). At lv 7 you'll get +1 propelling you straight up to 19.
    Post edited by Queegon on
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 666
    i like to invest minimally in strength- 13 usually- and use spells to compensate as improved strength will still get you hitting pretty hard as a mage that way
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    edited April 2
    @Queegon

    I actually know that INT above 19 is useless but is quite epic and in my powergaming epicness is the main goal. :P But still doesn't 20+ INT give you some Illusion Immunity, Lore, Chance to Learn Spell or abillity to regain memories?

    But still I think that 25 INT, 25 WIS, 25 CHA is full epic for spell-casting class. ;P And it would hurt my pride to have lover INT, WIS and CHA than The Transcendent One. ;P

    From the HP point of view I think It is the best to progress in this manner:
    3-6 warrior
    1-7 mage
    7-11 warrior
    8-12 mage

    Is any level most profitable to first obtain it by thief?
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    @Hadar
    But still doesn't 20+ INT give you some Illusion Immunity, Lore, Chance to Learn Spell or abillity to regain memories?
    No; Yes, but so does WIS which is enough to ID everything; Yes, at INT 19 you have 100%; No, that's what WIS is for.
    Is any level most profitable to first obtain it by thief? No.

    Plus I don't recommend going 8-10 warrior because it hampers you for no other reason than extra 18hp. Meaningless difference. You'll have tons of life from constitution even as a mage.
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    edited April 2
    @Queegon

    So having 25 INT is only my fetish + little bit lore + and passing the checks of 21 INT without tattoos. :P

    Anyone knows (summon: @JuliusBorisov ) how THAC0, Saving Throws, Weapon Proficiency, Attacks per Round, AC etc progress in each class? And do I keep this things after switching between classes?

    Edit: Assuming that saving throws progress like in Baldur and character keeps ST after switching classes it would be profitable to obtain 17 level fighter before mage and then progress with mage at least up to 21 level. :P

    3-6 warrior
    1-7 mage
    7-11 warrior
    8-12 mage
    12-17 warrior
    13-21 mage

    But it is only assuming that characters keep ST and they progress like in BG
    Post edited by Hadar on
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    edited April 2
    Pretty much, yes. The lore you'll have from 25 WIS and 19 INT is by far more than needed. Check, a single one in the entire game, not checks.

    For your other question, I suggest this link.

    TL;DR
    THAC0 progression:
    Warrior -1 every level
    Wizard -1 every 3 levels
    Priest -2 every 3 levels
    Rogue -1 every 2 levels

    Bonus attacks are attained as a warrior at lv 7 (specialization +1/2 APR) and 12 (another +1/2 APR)
    and from proficiency:
    * - no malus
    ** - extra 1/2 APR
    ***
    **** (only a specialized warrior can achieve this)
    ***** - extra 1/2 APR (only twice specialized warrior can achieve this)

    AC stays the same for all classes and is governed by DEX. No armor whatsoever in the game.
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    edited April 2
    Hadar said:


    Edit: Assuming that saving throws progress like in Baldur and character keeps ST after switching classes it would be profitable to obtain 17 level fighter before mage and then progress with mage at least up to 21 level. :P

    In theory, yes. Practically it'll give you a headache and there's nowhere near enough XP in the game for that unless you want to farm the one endless dungeon before the end of the game just for the sake of it.
    You keep using THAC0 and saving throws granted by your best class even when
    the class that grants those is inactive. (So a lv 6 warrior -> mage is an equivalent of a lv 19 mage in terms of THAC0)
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    @Queegon

    Yes I know It would require an absurd amount of farming in UnderSigil and I don't know if I will have enough patience to do this. But still I want to know how in theory I could create the most epic Nameless One. :p

    I still have a few questions.

    1. How long in PT fighter THAC0 progress? On which level fighter aquires lowest THAC0 (if ever)
    2. How long I get +1 attribute upon levelling up?
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    1. Till you get a base THAC0 of 1 (lvl 21 warrior
    2. As long as you keep leveling.
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    @Queegon

    1. Here is stated that "Fighter: 21 - your fighter level; no lower than 1" so it should be 20 level warrior?
    2. So this basically mean that I can achieve 25 in every attribute? :p
    3. Suppose that I am 6 lvl warrior so I've received 3 attributes points. Then I change class to mage - do I receive attributes points for levelling my mage between level 2-6? If yes then levelling thief up to level 11 would give 10 attributes points very cheaply... :P
    Teflon
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,969
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    edited April 2
    @Queegon @Pibaro

    So there is absolutely no point to progress in thief except maybe teaching Annah? I do not receive any extra Attributes, THAC0, Saving Throws, Weapon Proficiency, Attacks per Round, anything due to levelling thief if the warrior level is higher than the thief level?
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,969
    Thieving skills (including backstabbing) and maybe saving throws.
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    @Pibaro

    I play Infinity Engine games my whole life and I probably never used backstap ability. xD Nevertheless the main class suppose to mage so I don't have any profit from thieving skills. :p

    How saving throws?
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,969
    There's absolutely no point in wasting good xp in the thief class if you plan a power mage.
    In PST mages suffer one big problem. You can't rest in dungeons so you can easily run out of spells. Luckily TNO is a decent melee fighter even if he is a mage.
    But you definitely want to have as much spells as you can, so every mage level counts, and wasting xp in other classes is pointless (if you want to be only a mage).
    Teflon
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    @Pibaro

    But levelling in warrior gives your mage better HP, THAC0, saving throws, proficiencies etc and do not restrain mage in any way, so it is advantageous to make those warrior levels. :P
    Pibaro
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    @rede9

    But point of this topic is to create the ultimate mage :D (ultimage xD)
    Teflon
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,134
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,969
    Hadar said:

    @Pibaro

    But levelling in warrior gives your mage better HP, THAC0, saving throws, proficiencies etc and do not restrain mage in any way, so it is advantageous to make those warrior levels. :P

    I agree!!!
    But we were talking about levelling in thief. That's pointless!
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    I think, and don't quote me on that because I'm not sure, if I remember correctly, that TNO ALWAYS gets d10 hit points on level up regardless of his current class till lvl 10 (after that it's 1/2/3 based on class).
    Warrior levels give you THAC0, so definitely worthwhile anyway.
    PibaroTeflon
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,134
    edited April 10
    @Queegon I'm going to use the new Max HP for level option. Simply because before I saved/loaded before level up every time.
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    Pibaro said:

    Hadar said:

    @Pibaro

    But levelling in warrior gives your mage better HP, THAC0, saving throws, proficiencies etc and do not restrain mage in any way, so it is advantageous to make those warrior levels. :P

    I agree!!!
    But we were talking about levelling in thief. That's pointless!
    @Pibaro But you wrote "But you definitely want to have as much spells as you can, so every mage level counts, and wasting xp in other classes is pointless (if you want to be only a mage)." and it was quite misleading. :P
    Queegon said:

    I think, and don't quote me on that because I'm not sure, if I remember correctly, that TNO ALWAYS gets d10 hit points on level up regardless of his current class till lvl 10 (after that it's 1/2/3 based on class).
    Warrior levels give you THAC0, so definitely worthwhile anyway.

    @Queegon Official PST manual says that warriors have d10, thiefs d6 and mages d4.
    rede9 said:

    @Queegon I'm going to use the new Max HP for level option. Simply because before I saved/loaded before level up every time.

    @rede9 But it is not the case. @Queegon though that all classes have the same hit points dices (so warrior, thief and mage can get maximum 10 HP per level), but it isn't true (at least without mods) because thief gets maximum 6 hit points per level and mage gets maximum 4 hit points per level.
    rede9Pibaro
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    @Hadar

    Taken from official PST Manual:

    "When the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he’ll start to
    accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level)."

    Teflon
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 668
    If I remember well, TNO never stops gaining 1d10 HP per level up, regardless of class or level.
    Yeah, that means a level 20+ TNO with a high constitution has something like 400+ HP and regenerates 2-3 hp per second.
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 118
    @Queegon

    The whole fragment says:

    "The Nameless One is Different from your other Characters Your character is different from the other characters in your party. He’s immortal, that’s one big difference. Another is the way that he gains hit points and spells. The Nameless One starts the game as a third level warrior and a first level thief and mage. The Nameless One only gets experience in the class he is currently a member of — he switches classes by talking to people in the game. Furthermore, he cannot access any of the other classes’ abilities when he is specializing in one of the classes. The Nameless One only gains hit points when he gains a level in a class that’s higher than the maximum level he’s achieved in any of his other classes. For example, he starts off as a level three fighter and a level one mage and thief. When he gains enough experience to become a second level mage he won’t get any more hit points because his mage level (two) is still lower or equal to his fighter level (three). When the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he’ll start to accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level). The Nameless One often learns spells as a result of regaining the memory of how to cast a spell rather than be learning it anew. That means that although he could cast a new spell because it’s allowed by his level, he may still have to remember or relearn the spell before he can cast it."

    Soooo...

    1. TNO have d10 even after level 9? It it means that TNO can get 10 HP each level even at high levels?
    2. So maybe TNO progress with saving rolls, THAC0 and weapon proficiencies in its own way like HP regardless his class?
  • QueegonQueegon Member Posts: 318
    edited April 11
    1. Can't remember that now, it's been a year or two since I played Torment for the last time. We'll see after launch of EE where lies the truth.
    2. You keep using THAC0, saving throws and proficiencies granted by your best class(so you always have the best possible) even when the class that grants those is inactive.

    What is sure, however, is that TNO gets (at least until lvl 10) d10 hit points regardless of class (which is already big news).
    For levels 11+ I think it was the reduced number, but if @Aranthys says it doesn't fall off at that point, it might go d10 all the way.
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 140
    A quote from here:

    "For hit points and specialization the only class that counts is the one you're at when you first reach that level. If you are a fighter the first time you reach level 6 you get the usual 1d10 hit points. If you were a 6th level thief first, then you'd only get 1 hit point when you reached level 6 as a fighter.

    My feeling is that the best path is to go to each level from 1-9 as a fighter, then get to 10 as a thief, and then go back to fighter for level 12. That gives you the maximum number of hit points . . . ."
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