Thank you for sharing these stories, @PsicoVic. I can tell the appreciation you have for your ancestors and home.
On topic:
On the bright side: compared to this the last season of GoT doesnt seem so bad at all anymore.
Wow, that is the first genuinely convincing argument in favour of the Sanrah mod I have read. I'm tempted to install it; it might just cure my post-GoT trauma. o.O
Yep, all this talk makes me want to play the mod even more! I'll play through my mega mod EET install a couple times first before I install the Saga.
I plan to play though with a noncommittal Charname who can just stand back and be amused by all the drama, so I can attempt to play with Sandrah (spelled correctly!) as the main character, as if I am playing the whole game through another player's eyes. I'm hoping it's an absolute trip. I've played through the entire saga dozens of times, vanilla and heavily modded, and this seems like the only new direction left to go. Play it through with someone else's character, someone else's story, letting go of my own voice and just enjoying the ride, good or bad.
I have this crazy feeling PaulaMigrate is back. Am I the only one who hasn't watched any GoT season?
The books are pretty good. They say that the series are not bad, despite the last season. But as far as I know George R. Martin does not have anything to do with the scripts anymore, and he is writing another ending for the books ( or so he says, but right now only publishes fillers )
Hey I spelled Sandrah correctly, so I can't be her, right? For reals, I'm a psychiatric RN and I love exploring people's personalities through their work, healthy or otherwise. Lava's are some of my favorite, with their recurring themes of loss and grief. I'm insatiably curious about this one's personality...
Ha, thanks! I meant more along the lines of exploring the author's personality. There is some saying like, "If you want to know what the author is like, don't read about them, but read their work." I honestly wont get around to this Saga experiment for months, I want to do an evil party run through first, exploring Hexxat (whom I have heard almost nothing good about) and some other evil mod NPCs (Ariena, Adrian, etc).
The books are pretty good. They say that the series are not bad, despite the last season. But as far as I know George R. Martin does not have anything to do with the scripts anymore, and he is writing another ending for the books ( or so he says, but right now only publishes fillers )
I'm more of a Paul Auster/Nicolo Ammaniti fan, can't get into fantasy books much for some reason. Can't even read Tolkien.
I loved Bukowski when I was younger.
I see, you are more into classics but in the past few decades there are some heavyweights you can try also if you want ( Carlos Ruíz Zafón, Murakami, Sapkowski, Rothfuss, Jim Butcher,Abercrombie... )
Ha, thanks! I meant more along the lines of exploring the author's personality. There is some saying like, "If you want to know what the author is like, don't read about them, but read their work." I honestly wont get around to this Saga experiment for months, I want to do an evil party run through first, exploring Hexxat (whom I have heard almost nothing good about) and some other evil mod NPCs (Ariena, Adrian, etc).
Ha, thanks! I meant more along the lines of exploring the author's personality. There is some saying like, "If you want to know what the author is like, don't read about them, but read their work." I honestly wont get around to this Saga experiment for months, I want to do an evil party run through first, exploring Hexxat (whom I have heard almost nothing good about) and some other evil mod NPCs (Ariena, Adrian, etc).
@PsicoVic Hey, I'll try (almost) anything once! I've played this game in its original inception so many times this is where my mind has turned, trying to understand and appreciate all the varied personalities and perspectives of the other people who love this game. I'm the only person I know in real life who plays BG, so it feels like one big slightly dysfunctional family when I explore all these mods.
@Isewein do what to Adrian, subject him to a party run with Hexxat? Would that be cruelty to NPCs?
Just chiming in as another soul led astray by Roxanne's EE setup tool into trying this mod.
If you care the least bit about balanced gameplay and good writing, turn back and do not install Sandrah. And do not make my mistake of assuming that if you don't like it you can just not take her along. I didn't, and I still encountered the issues below - so there's probably much more besides that.
Regarding the writing, this thread is full of complaints that I don't need to add to. Suffice it to say, it is *immediately* apparent that Sandrah's writer doesn't know their craft, in your first conversation with her.
Regarding game balance - this mod starts you off (immediately! in the prologue!) with a +3 longsword. For comparison, that's the level of power you might expect to have by the *end* of the vanilla Baldur's Gate Campaign. Going by this thread, it only gets worse from there.
Early on, a hobgoblin randomly has the ability to cast spells (Fireball, Aganazzar's Scorcher) that will almost certainly insta-kill you at the point where you meet it. Moronic game balance aside, the hobgoblin also has no reason to be able to do this whatsoever. The unsaid implication is that the item you're retreiving is granting its these powers, but it doesn't when it's in your possession.
If none of the above sound the least bit alarming to you, however, then this is the mod for you.
I recently reinstalled EET with even more mods, including Sandrah Saga, intending to attempt a playthrough. Everything installed correctly the first time... except Sandrah! I thought, "maybe that's a sign, it's not meant to be."
who has really got through this mod? I had been killed many times when first meet Sandrah after Gorion's death because there was a very powerful enemy squad including 3 Ogre and 2 Archer.
I'm currently on a LE playthrough with this mod to see if it's that bad and so far all I can say is that...it's complicated.
First of all, I've got interested in it because I'd like to see the how the post-ToB content is handled - what and how she manages it. I've just left Nashkel Mines after doing some side content and have been struggling ever since to keep on. I'm wondering If I'll ever get to Baldurs Gate at least.
The writing, as already mentioned, is really subpar. Sometimes it's bearable and shows signs of improvement just until you hit an out of character dialogue entirely in caps lock, that I believe it was supposed to be some sort of comical relief, but in the end it just leaves you cringing. Not to mention that she really gives a bad impression the first time she addresses you. ("You desperately need help. You need MY help" but I can't trus.. "You CAN and you MUST" alright lady alright.)
The bits of writing that I can say I've enjoyed so far are from the romance. Although it starts quite at once, I feel that at least this subject was handled quite well and felt it was better than some original romance options in my opinion (from a male perspective).
==========================
But then begins the problem - Sandrah's interrelationship with other NPCs. I've seen complaints about Sandrah being somewhat...overzealous in her sexual persuits and therefore I decided I'd refrain from using some male NPCs. Got Imoen, Jaheira and Khalid to see the new banters and added Edwin later on. When I parted ways with J & K I invited Viconia and Shar-teel in.
However, it was all to no avail since many characters you encounter had already had any sort of relationship with her in Waterdeep, despite she being around your age, and she keeps flirting and kissing them as you encounter them. Later on I decided to add Kivan and Xan just to see how it would go then and well...that's that. Completely disappointing.
Sandrah's relationship with the PC outside the romance is also an issue. She manages to be more manipulative than my LE PC can be, stating that you do what she wants or else - E.g., right after you reach Beregost she talks to you about saving Branwen. If you say you have no interest she just answers that she doesn't want you disagreeing with her in the future, again - or else. I also believe she attacks you if you decide to kill Brage at first, but I didn't have time to confirm.
Oh and her personality is so annoying. Totally conceited and self-centred. She just knows everything about everything and everyone. I already loathe her git father, still she manages to be worse than him.
Wrapping up her character, what intrigued me the most is that she managed to bring back my years of Psychology before I dropped out of it years ago. It's normal for me every once and then to grasp some patterns of behaviour but it never occurred to me so unintentionally in media, especially in gaming. I can't remember when, but a certain chain of events and dialogues just got me thinking: 'Uh...I think this NPC suffers from BPD'.
==========================
About her first questline - Sadly just couldn't get me into it. Could've really just asked her father instead of a young lad from Candlekeep. Not much to say as to not spoil anyone who would like to try for themselves.
Balancing - as others mentioned, it's not balanced. I personally couldn't care less about it as I care more about the story and RPing than balancing. The only thing that I thought it was absurd is that she has instant casting of some spells. Also there are some strong enemies early on but avoidable and I don't feel it's that bad to be fair.
==========================
tl;dr /Overall - it's undeniable the amount of work this modder has put into it but the way some things are done just puts me off. Sandrah indeed seizes control of the story and makes it about her, yet I wouldn't mind wasn't for how intrusive she is. It made me think who really was the LE on the story.
For me, if Sandrah's impulsiveness is toned down at least if she's romancing the PC and her self-opinionated character is got rid off, a run to the end with this mod would be bearable, if not enjoyable.
Besides many of the points already made, a big problem with the mod is that Roxanne does not understand the concept of player choice. She feels that the player must be railroaded into doing things her way. A couple of examples:
The first time I played with this mod, within the first few minutes that wolf showed up, and there was no option to tell it to leave. If you try, Sandrah overrides you. If you kill it, she raises it. The only way I could get rid of it was to have it follow me into a house, tell it to wait, then high-tail it outta there.
And Sandrah herself... she is absurdly overpowered. She gets all sorts of extra spells from her kit, and gets a lot of fantastic summons as the game goes on. She comes with a bunch of equipment with no item descriptions. Wanting to know what her stuff does, I fired up Near Infinity. Sheesh! Her starting equipment, at level one, would make a 30th level character jealous. One of the rings in the Ring of Gaxx! She's immune to pretty much everything. So I thought, what's the point in having anyone else in the party fight? Every time I encounter an enemy, just send Sandrah in while everyone else hangs back. Since she's nigh-invulnerable, she'll slaughter everyone eventually.
So anyway, to tone her down a bit, I decided she would not wear her equipment. As soon as I got to Beregost, I sold her stuff (netting over 100K gold). She immediately spawned new copies, and equipped them. So I, the player, am not allowed to make the choice of what equipment Sandrah will use.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on and on... at any rate, I got about 15 minutes into the game, and decided changes had to be made to the mod. I removed the script block that spawns the wolf (and in the process, discovered that later Sandrah has a panther that is also forced on the player; I killed that as well). I trashed most of her equipment. I deleted her kit, and made her a Cleric/Mage (I mean, why would a priestess of Mystra not be at least part mage?). And so on.
And then, as already mentioned, there's the dialog. Calling it "subpar" is generous. All of the characters sound like five-year-olds. And, there's just too much talking. A great deal of the dialog is basically "you, the player, are far too stupid to understand what is going on, so I, Sandrah, am going to explain it to you. At great length."
I do like many of the ideas present in the mod - new areas and new quests are always good. The execution is just terrible, though. I had this idea that I would rewrite the dialog in an attempt to make it sound less stupid... but with literally tens of thousands of lines of dialog, this was going to be a daunting task.
I finally came to the realization that the mod would be a lot better, and a lot easier to rewrite, if Sandrah isn't in it. I've been working on this lately, rewriting the code and cutting Sandrah the NPC out of Sandrah the mod. I'm about halfway through the BG1 portion of the game. I call it "Sandrah Minus Sandrah."
This is purely for my own amusement, of course. I am not making a mod announcement here. Although, since Roxanne feels free to modify and host other modders' work without permission, I suppose she shouldn't object if I do the same to her mod...
Although, since Roxanne feels free to modify and host other modders' work without permission, I suppose she shouldn't object if I do the same to her mod...
Firstly, I wouldn't be sure of that, and secondly - does anyone want to sink to that level?
rewriting the code and cutting Sandrah the NPC out of Sandrah the mod. I'm about halfway through the BG1 portion of the game. I call it "Sandrah Minus Sandrah."
That's the funniest idea I have heard in a long time. Not because it goes against Roxanne's mod, but because I never actually thought about it before. Because yes, the amount of work that went into that mod is incredible, and it does add additions and conclusions and follow-ups to almost any mod quest out there. (Like it or not, of course.)
Although, since Roxanne feels free to modify and host other modders' work without permission, I suppose she shouldn't object if I do the same to her mod...
Firstly, I wouldn't be sure of that, and secondly - does anyone want to sink to that level?
No, I would not. I was being facetious, and getting in a dig on Roxanne. I'm sure she would, in a most hypocritical fashion, be quite angry about it.
This would be unauthorized/unofficial version of Sandrah Saga. Hillarious idea ?
Edit: Just to be clear, I don't encourage anyone to alter Roxanne's mods without her consent, just found this specific notion hillarious knowing how she treats other modders work.
Well, technically "Sandrah Saga without Sandrah" is possible even now - you can refuse to take her with you. At least it was an option before. She would try to convince you again a bit later, but you had the option to refuse. The only problem, most of the content that you were supposed to get through her will be lost.
Heh, I had the same idea once. Simpler: set her sprite to invisible and no selection circle, and make all her dialogue silent. Go along for the extra content, without the NPC.
Came to the same conclusion though. It wouldn’t be a classy move. I don’t want to sink to her level.
here's an interesting bit tho: roxanne has expressly allowed replacing sandrah and reusing parts of her mod needed to resolve SoD in BG2 and open up the city of BG in EET
i think a hybrid of her resolution and Lava's Skie NPC (and quest to release her) would be a very robust and lean resolution of SoD in SoA.
Started playing Sandrah's Saga recently. My first impressions were quite positive - a lot of new content right out of the bat. A wolf companion? How nice. A gift sword? Great!
Whaaa...??? It's +3 sword? This was the first alarm. The second one was her level - way overpowered companion when my main char is level 1. Then I looked at Sandrah's inventory. A lot of unique gear, which could make for an unique companion. Her AC is 0? That's a bit too good to start with, but no biggie. +2 mace with other magical effects?? That's definitely way too good in the beginning of the game.
But what broke the camels back for me was the other Sandrah's mod companion you recruit from Friendly Arm Inn. I literally couldn't believe my eyes:
Base Thac0 = 3 ?????
Thac0 with weapon = -1 ??????????????
Sword+3 ?????????????????
Lockpicking skill 85 ??????????????
OK... let's give it a try...
Went to fight an ogre - the toughest enemy that your party encounters until maybe 5 hours of gameplay. Immediately when battle starts this guy automatically shoots an energy globe that hits the ogre for 10 damage, knocks him unconscious and sends him flying across the screen. I swear I'm not shitting you - this is what actually happened. My main character is level 1, just left Friendly Arm Inn for the first time.
This mod completely and utterly breaks the combat and itemization of the game. I had high hopes for this mod, but I can´t see myself playing this any further.
Someone please rebalance this mod. I'm sure there's a lot of good content buried under there somewhere.
Comments
On topic:
Wow, that is the first genuinely convincing argument in favour of the Sanrah mod I have read. I'm tempted to install it; it might just cure my post-GoT trauma. o.O
I plan to play though with a noncommittal Charname who can just stand back and be amused by all the drama, so I can attempt to play with Sandrah (spelled correctly!) as the main character, as if I am playing the whole game through another player's eyes. I'm hoping it's an absolute trip. I've played through the entire saga dozens of times, vanilla and heavily modded, and this seems like the only new direction left to go. Play it through with someone else's character, someone else's story, letting go of my own voice and just enjoying the ride, good or bad.
The books are pretty good. They say that the series are not bad, despite the last season. But as far as I know George R. Martin does not have anything to do with the scripts anymore, and he is writing another ending for the books ( or so he says, but right now only publishes fillers )
I'm more of a Paul Auster/Nicolo Ammaniti fan, can't get into fantasy books much for some reason. Can't even read Tolkien.
I loved Bukowski when I was younger.
I can spell Aasim correctly, and here I be. Just kidding, I never mentioned any names. Don't let paranoia get you
Apperantly, there's more than one personality you should be curious about.
I think he/she wants to dissect RL people personalities based on their mods, not mod characters.
I... see... Oookey...
Right, there is a mod called "Vampire world" so you can go full evil http://www.shsforums.net/topic/59490-mod-vampire-world-for-eet/
You can't possibly do that to poor Adrian!
@Isewein do what to Adrian, subject him to a party run with Hexxat? Would that be cruelty to NPCs?
If you care the least bit about balanced gameplay and good writing, turn back and do not install Sandrah. And do not make my mistake of assuming that if you don't like it you can just not take her along. I didn't, and I still encountered the issues below - so there's probably much more besides that.
Regarding the writing, this thread is full of complaints that I don't need to add to. Suffice it to say, it is *immediately* apparent that Sandrah's writer doesn't know their craft, in your first conversation with her.
Regarding game balance - this mod starts you off (immediately! in the prologue!) with a +3 longsword. For comparison, that's the level of power you might expect to have by the *end* of the vanilla Baldur's Gate Campaign. Going by this thread, it only gets worse from there.
Early on, a hobgoblin randomly has the ability to cast spells (Fireball, Aganazzar's Scorcher) that will almost certainly insta-kill you at the point where you meet it. Moronic game balance aside, the hobgoblin also has no reason to be able to do this whatsoever. The unsaid implication is that the item you're retreiving is granting its these powers, but it doesn't when it's in your possession.
If none of the above sound the least bit alarming to you, however, then this is the mod for you.
First of all, I've got interested in it because I'd like to see the how the post-ToB content is handled - what and how she manages it. I've just left Nashkel Mines after doing some side content and have been struggling ever since to keep on. I'm wondering If I'll ever get to Baldurs Gate at least.
The writing, as already mentioned, is really subpar. Sometimes it's bearable and shows signs of improvement just until you hit an out of character dialogue entirely in caps lock, that I believe it was supposed to be some sort of comical relief, but in the end it just leaves you cringing. Not to mention that she really gives a bad impression the first time she addresses you. ("You desperately need help. You need MY help" but I can't trus.. "You CAN and you MUST" alright lady alright.)
The bits of writing that I can say I've enjoyed so far are from the romance. Although it starts quite at once, I feel that at least this subject was handled quite well and felt it was better than some original romance options in my opinion (from a male perspective).
==========================
But then begins the problem - Sandrah's interrelationship with other NPCs. I've seen complaints about Sandrah being somewhat...overzealous in her sexual persuits and therefore I decided I'd refrain from using some male NPCs. Got Imoen, Jaheira and Khalid to see the new banters and added Edwin later on. When I parted ways with J & K I invited Viconia and Shar-teel in.
However, it was all to no avail since many characters you encounter had already had any sort of relationship with her in Waterdeep, despite she being around your age, and she keeps flirting and kissing them as you encounter them. Later on I decided to add Kivan and Xan just to see how it would go then and well...that's that. Completely disappointing.
Sandrah's relationship with the PC outside the romance is also an issue. She manages to be more manipulative than my LE PC can be, stating that you do what she wants or else - E.g., right after you reach Beregost she talks to you about saving Branwen. If you say you have no interest she just answers that she doesn't want you disagreeing with her in the future, again - or else. I also believe she attacks you if you decide to kill Brage at first, but I didn't have time to confirm.
Oh and her personality is so annoying. Totally conceited and self-centred. She just knows everything about everything and everyone. I already loathe her git father, still she manages to be worse than him.
Wrapping up her character, what intrigued me the most is that she managed to bring back my years of Psychology before I dropped out of it years ago. It's normal for me every once and then to grasp some patterns of behaviour but it never occurred to me so unintentionally in media, especially in gaming. I can't remember when, but a certain chain of events and dialogues just got me thinking: 'Uh...I think this NPC suffers from BPD'.
==========================
About her first questline - Sadly just couldn't get me into it. Could've really just asked her father instead of a young lad from Candlekeep. Not much to say as to not spoil anyone who would like to try for themselves.
Balancing - as others mentioned, it's not balanced. I personally couldn't care less about it as I care more about the story and RPing than balancing. The only thing that I thought it was absurd is that she has instant casting of some spells. Also there are some strong enemies early on but avoidable and I don't feel it's that bad to be fair.
==========================
tl;dr /Overall - it's undeniable the amount of work this modder has put into it but the way some things are done just puts me off. Sandrah indeed seizes control of the story and makes it about her, yet I wouldn't mind wasn't for how intrusive she is. It made me think who really was the LE on the story.
For me, if Sandrah's impulsiveness is toned down at least if she's romancing the PC and her self-opinionated character is got rid off, a run to the end with this mod would be bearable, if not enjoyable.
The first time I played with this mod, within the first few minutes that wolf showed up, and there was no option to tell it to leave. If you try, Sandrah overrides you. If you kill it, she raises it. The only way I could get rid of it was to have it follow me into a house, tell it to wait, then high-tail it outta there.
And Sandrah herself... she is absurdly overpowered. She gets all sorts of extra spells from her kit, and gets a lot of fantastic summons as the game goes on. She comes with a bunch of equipment with no item descriptions. Wanting to know what her stuff does, I fired up Near Infinity. Sheesh! Her starting equipment, at level one, would make a 30th level character jealous. One of the rings in the Ring of Gaxx! She's immune to pretty much everything. So I thought, what's the point in having anyone else in the party fight? Every time I encounter an enemy, just send Sandrah in while everyone else hangs back. Since she's nigh-invulnerable, she'll slaughter everyone eventually.
So anyway, to tone her down a bit, I decided she would not wear her equipment. As soon as I got to Beregost, I sold her stuff (netting over 100K gold). She immediately spawned new copies, and equipped them. So I, the player, am not allowed to make the choice of what equipment Sandrah will use.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on and on... at any rate, I got about 15 minutes into the game, and decided changes had to be made to the mod. I removed the script block that spawns the wolf (and in the process, discovered that later Sandrah has a panther that is also forced on the player; I killed that as well). I trashed most of her equipment. I deleted her kit, and made her a Cleric/Mage (I mean, why would a priestess of Mystra not be at least part mage?). And so on.
And then, as already mentioned, there's the dialog. Calling it "subpar" is generous. All of the characters sound like five-year-olds. And, there's just too much talking. A great deal of the dialog is basically "you, the player, are far too stupid to understand what is going on, so I, Sandrah, am going to explain it to you. At great length."
I do like many of the ideas present in the mod - new areas and new quests are always good. The execution is just terrible, though. I had this idea that I would rewrite the dialog in an attempt to make it sound less stupid... but with literally tens of thousands of lines of dialog, this was going to be a daunting task.
I finally came to the realization that the mod would be a lot better, and a lot easier to rewrite, if Sandrah isn't in it. I've been working on this lately, rewriting the code and cutting Sandrah the NPC out of Sandrah the mod. I'm about halfway through the BG1 portion of the game. I call it "Sandrah Minus Sandrah."
This is purely for my own amusement, of course. I am not making a mod announcement here. Although, since Roxanne feels free to modify and host other modders' work without permission, I suppose she shouldn't object if I do the same to her mod...
That's the funniest idea I have heard in a long time. Not because it goes against Roxanne's mod, but because I never actually thought about it before. Because yes, the amount of work that went into that mod is incredible, and it does add additions and conclusions and follow-ups to almost any mod quest out there. (Like it or not, of course.)
No, I would not. I was being facetious, and getting in a dig on Roxanne. I'm sure she would, in a most hypocritical fashion, be quite angry about it.
I would LOVE to see Roxanne complaining that I'm using it.
Edit: Just to be clear, I don't encourage anyone to alter Roxanne's mods without her consent, just found this specific notion hillarious knowing how she treats other modders work.
(And based on some replies in this thread, Sandrah seems like a Chosen of Mystra by her starting power level. Hmm.)
here's an interesting bit tho: roxanne has expressly allowed replacing sandrah and reusing parts of her mod needed to resolve SoD in BG2 and open up the city of BG in EET
i think a hybrid of her resolution and Lava's Skie NPC (and quest to release her) would be a very robust and lean resolution of SoD in SoA.
proof: https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/28549-new-content-which-opens-up-bg-city-should-be-part-of-eet-project/?do=findComment&comment=251187
Whaaa...??? It's +3 sword? This was the first alarm. The second one was her level - way overpowered companion when my main char is level 1. Then I looked at Sandrah's inventory. A lot of unique gear, which could make for an unique companion. Her AC is 0? That's a bit too good to start with, but no biggie. +2 mace with other magical effects?? That's definitely way too good in the beginning of the game.
But what broke the camels back for me was the other Sandrah's mod companion you recruit from Friendly Arm Inn. I literally couldn't believe my eyes:
Base Thac0 = 3 ?????
Thac0 with weapon = -1 ??????????????
Sword+3 ?????????????????
Lockpicking skill 85 ??????????????
OK... let's give it a try...
Went to fight an ogre - the toughest enemy that your party encounters until maybe 5 hours of gameplay. Immediately when battle starts this guy automatically shoots an energy globe that hits the ogre for 10 damage, knocks him unconscious and sends him flying across the screen. I swear I'm not shitting you - this is what actually happened. My main character is level 1, just left Friendly Arm Inn for the first time.
This mod completely and utterly breaks the combat and itemization of the game. I had high hopes for this mod, but I can´t see myself playing this any further.
Someone please rebalance this mod. I'm sure there's a lot of good content buried under there somewhere.