cant you just stick sandrah in a corner, unequip her so she doesnt unbalance the game and skip most of her dialogue...as long as it doesnt lead to her attacking/leaving your party and then play the new material, quests etc? still interested in playing this just to try a new mod with lots of new material.
One of the most frustrating things about Sandrah the NPC is the custom combat AI in her override script. Selecting an AI script for her is useless, because she'll ignore it (and also ignore most commands you give her). This goes for Jenlig as well. So, putting them in a corner is fruitless, because they will do their own thing regardless of what you tell them. This, I believe, is why Roxanne is so adamant that her mod be installed last - really, I think she just wants it installed after SCS, so that SCS won't mess with her AI scripts.
Wanna earn some serious cash at the beginning of the game? Here's how:
1) Pick up Sandrah and make your way to a merchant. Sell all of her equipment. This will net you around 100,000 gp.
2) As soon as this is done, Sandrah will spawn new copies of all of her equipment.
3) Become a millionaire in record time!
But anyway... she can be unequiped, but it doesn't always take. If you put any of her items in another character's inventory, she'll take it back. If you sell or drop it, she spawns new copies. If you boot her from the party then take her back, she will equip all of her stuff. Looking at the code, it appears Roxanne's intent is for Sandrah to immediately re-equip an item if it is unequiped, but her code doesn't work properly.
and skip most of her dialogue...as long as it doesnt lead to her attacking/leaving your party and then play the new material, quests etc?
Sandrah the NPC is tightly integrated into every last little addition in the mod. There is no way to do *any* of the new content with out her present and conscious. The best you can do is tap through her dialog. Of which there is a copious amount.
I gave up on this MOD initially because of most of the reviews / comments in this thread. I could not imagine why I have to play a MOD that receives so many bad comments. However, my friend keeps telling me to give it a try, eventually, I decided to try it myself because:
- I really like the idea of this MOD
- I trust my friend's taste, if he likes something that most people dislike (at least in this thread), there must be something worth trying
My first impression of this MOD is nothing much different from what many peoples already said in this thread. However, as I proceed further (chapter 6 of BG1 now), most of the thing I dislike initially are no longer disturbing me. For example, I simply don't use any equipment from the MOD, which make some fights quite challenging (interesting) actually. Sandrah also seems stop flirting / having sex with `everyone` after some time (after Nashkel i think). As for `Mary Sue`, I read something that she won't be like this forever. I will see how she changes later, but generally I'm OK with how she is now.
As of now, I can say I really enjoy the contents added in this MOD. I have not played any MOD which has added so many things and according to the walk-through, it seems like most of the big quests I'm doing now are `bigger` than I thought...those stories will continue in BG2 and RTF, and have some connections to each other or the main quests....
Now I know why my friend recommended this MOD to me. He knows I love this type of quest's design in WRPG. Yes, this MOD indeed has its flaws, it is not perfect, just like any `good MOD` we have out there. However, I still found it interesting enough for me to continue, in my opinion, it makes the BG1 like a new and bigger game to explore, and I really appreciate the works to make the plots thicken.
I will see if my opinion changes later. (I hope not!)
----
Decided to update here on why I eventually gave up on this MOD after almost 300 hours invested.
First reason is I went for other games for a while and then my hard disk spoiled... I didn't choose to back up Sandrah's Saga game because I feel like whatever I have expected is unlikely to happen when I was around 50% of SOA.
The author said Sandrah is not Mary Sue and she won't be like this forever. However, after 300 hours, she is still right for everything, everyone still love her (except those npc that the author doen't like them) in BG2. Too many flirts and sexual contents that made the original NPCs look like different person, they are losing their personality that I love for almost 20 years.
No matter how I nerved Sandrah with EE keeper, or restricted myself to not using MOD items, the game is still too easy. Gameplay is why I play BG2 for 20 years, if battle in SOA is just like hack and slash, I rather stop playing.
The more I see the fully original contents created by this MOD (e.g. the big quest for Minsc and his new witch in SOA), I feel like it's probably OK, but the original NPC looks different, and the author seems like doesn't really care about the DND lore. I understand MOD cannot be perfectly lore friendly but if it is different from those that you can easily google and get from wiki, or it's commonly accepted in those well known DND novels, then I won't be able to really enjoy the game. In the end I quit before playing sequel created by the author, as I know, it definitely won't match with The Avatar Trilogy.
This MOD has something really cool, but unfortunately, the things that I dislike are actually more. In my opinion, it is not recommended unless someday the author is willing to remove those unnecessary flirts that may break the personality of the original npcs, reduce the Mary Sue of Sandrah and adjust the balance.
I feel like mod with such scale needs more people to cooperate and work.
I would also like to thank the author for her helps when I play the game, she helps with all of my questions, no matter related to her MOD or just my own personal request.
"My first impression of this MOD is nothing much different from what many peoples already said in this thread. However, as I proceed further (chapter 6 of BG1 now), most of the thing I dislike initially are no longer disturbing me. "
After actually reading through all of the mods contents recently I have to actually agree more with your assessment @marcnivar than others to be honest, which is telling on just how important a first impression is. In fact I was tempted to post on the Unpopular Opinions Mod that Sandrah has its strong points and would actually be enjoyable to some people who don't mind less freedom on their PC responses, but I guess I can elaborate here.
If I had to sum up my opinion, Sandrah has potential to be one of the great NPC mods due to its sheer content, but falls far short because of first impressions and the execution of the writing and NPC interactions, as well as the modder's interactions with others and behavior on this site, which is also important.
It would be a great Neverwinter Nights mod, because the rules there are different and your character could be more or less guided. But it definitely has a shift with the rest of Baldur's Gate with how the player responses are written.
The romantic scenes are a little too adult in some places to fit Baldur's Gate T rating, the mod would be rated M for sure, but I think that's fine if that's the style you want. Some people might like that.
The mod's conclusion in ToB does have some PC influence, a bad CHARNAME could have a lot of people suddenly hostile, including Sandrah, if they mess up and their entire party just drop out to watch, which I found pretty amusing, and totally curious if a CHARNAME could somehow win this battle.
If I could immediately recommend one change, it would be the ability to call her out and form a different opinion beyond "Sandrah is breathtaking beautiful." There is nothing wrong with her having multiple hook-ups, some people are charming enough to entice people to such arrangements and enjoy a quick fling, but allow <CHARNAME> to be jealous or think it improper because they're more traditional about love and argue. If everything Sandrah does is not perceived to be perfect/well-received, she would not be a Mary-Sue, and that would probably fix one part of the first impression. There are someplaces where you can, but ultimately the paths didn't vary enough from observation.
Sarah has a ton of cross-mod. Some of it even adds extra material to those characters, which is actually pretty cool. That is its main strong point IMO, it plays very well with other mods and adds more to them.
Balancing Items is rather easy, I think just listening and implementing feedback usually helps get the numbers to the right place.
I did like what I saw from the quests too.
I guess ultimately it is the age old question of how much should an NPC mod focus on the NPC character? I think due to criticism other mods have gotten, some NPC mods do not give enough information about themselves, they avoid any quests of exploration, and I think that is a miss. Over-focus can be bad too, which Sandrah suffers, but it can be fun exploring someone else's story.
As I said before though, I would love to see Roxanne tackle a new project. I think as they got further along in their mod they got better, so I would bet their next project would actually be much better.
TL:DR; Sandrah is not the worst mod ever and has its bright points. In fact, I would give that distinction to Lord Miraboo's original Imoen Romance mod, 1.202 (The 3.0 series is so much better). The 1.202 version handles mature themes very, very poorly, and ultimately has poor execution all over the place. That alone says there is potential for strong growth for Sandrah if the mod author wants to revisit it and adjust aspects, or in their next project. I'm confident they'll do a much better job.
"My first impression of this MOD is nothing much different from what many peoples already said in this thread. However, as I proceed further (chapter 6 of BG1 now), most of the thing I dislike initially are no longer disturbing me. "
That's called stockholm syndrome.
As explained before, if someone did something I don't like but she changed her behavior after that, I do not need to have whatever syndrome to change my opinion of that person. If I don't like a game initially doesn't mean I need to have whatever syndrome to have different opinion after seeing other interesting parts of that game.
With all seriousness, though, there are many reasons to try the cheesiest of them all additions to the games. Have you seen some Skyrim make-ups/costumes? Or take any Korean MMO - the looked is so eclectic bizarre chaotic with every element clashes with another, and yet millions are enjoying it. So, nothing wrong here. All you need is to understand what you are signing up for.
1. You loose the main story - Baalspawn is no more a protagonist but a sidekick (Sandrah Saga, remember?)
2. You loose side-stories as well - it is still about Sandrah and NPCs talk to her, not you.
3. You loose NPCs: the old one have different personalities (sorry, they have ONE personality now - deeply in love with Sandrah, with badly written modern language confessions of said love at every opportunity), the new one are important for new quests, hence, mandatory if you came for the content. So, old-companions-be-gone.
4. You loose the combat part of the game - Sandrah (and new NPCs) will solve every encounter for you with their OP equipment and skills.
Do you get anything for all these losses? Sure!
1. Obvious things - a huge new story with the new NPCs/areas, made of the same models and roughly in the same timeline. Bad quality, but new.
2. A mix of almost every mod out there. And those mods will work together! Story-wise, it might not make sense (sometimes), but those mods will be there and will play without crashes (for the most part)! You want to see what community came up with for the last years? Install Sandrah and enjoy. If you want to see those mods "as is" - ignore Snadrah. You will miss her part, but can get other mods in their purity.
3. God Mod without need to switch that god-mod on - OP equipment will do it for you.
The only reason to never give the mod a chance would be if you truly care about copyright - as in "do not change mods from others without their permission". If such things bother you - do not install the mod, because Sandrah includes every other work without regards of other mods integrity. Other then that - as always, check it up yourself (and be prepared to pay for your curiosity ).
With all seriousness, though, there are many reasons to try the cheesiest of them all additions to the games. Have you seen some Skyrim make-ups/costumes? Or take any Korean MMO - the looked is so eclectic bizarre chaotic with every element clashes with another, and yet millions are enjoying it. So, nothing wrong here. All you need is to understand what you are signing up for.
1. You loose the main story - Baalspawn is no more a protagonist but a sidekick (Sandrah Saga, remember?)
2. You loose side-stories as well - it is still about Sandrah and NPCs talk to her, not you.
3. You loose NPCs: the old one have different personalities (sorry, they have ONE personality now - deeply in love with Sandrah, with badly written modern language confessions of said love at every opportunity), the new one are important for new quests, hence, mandatory if you came for the content. So, old-companions-be-gone.
4. You loose the combat part of the game - Sandrah (and new NPCs) will solve every encounter for you with their OP equipment and skills.
Do you get anything for all these losses? Sure!
1. Obvious things - a huge new story with the new NPCs/areas, made of the same models and roughly in the same timeline. Bad quality, but new.
2. A mix of almost every mod out there. And those mods will work together! Story-wise, it might not make sense (sometimes), but those mods will be there and will play without crashes (for the most part)! You want to see what community came up with for the last years? Install Sandrah and enjoy. If you want to see those mods "as is" - ignore Snadrah. You will miss her part, but can get other mods in their purity.
3. God Mod without need to switch that god-mod on - OP equipment will do it for you.
The only reason to never give the mod a chance would be if you truly care about copyright - as in "do not change mods from others without their permission". If such things bother you - do not install the mod, because Sandrah includes every other work without regards of other mods integrity. Other then that - as always, check it up yourself (and be prepared to pay for your curiosity ).
I was just saying the MOD has some contents that I found it interesting, but...Wow! see how people here reacted...One insulted me with whatever syndrome...and the other one accused me as Roxanne's alt...
Feel free to say anything bad about this MOD or the author, everyone can have their opinions. We have to respect that. I hope you can do the same. At least, do some investigation before accusing other people.
----
Go back to what I wanted to say initially.
I just finished the quests of the Isle of Balduran...Surprisingly, I found that Sandrah's Saga has added an alternative peaceful solution for this quest. Really appreciate that, during my previous play-through, I really hate killing all of the villagers which I helped them in the side quests, such as the girl who is looking for her doll.
@Skitia "Sarah has a ton of cross-mod. Some of it even adds extra material to those characters, which is actually pretty cool. That is its main strong point IMO, it plays very well with other mods and adds more to them."
Actually, this is another huge problem with the mod. Roxxanne wrote a lot of dialogue for other peoples' characters without asking for permission, and directly against their wishes in some cases.
@marcnivar You're initial post is INCREDIBLY similar to dozens of other posts by a Roxanne alt. Chill with the indignation. Nobody insulted you.
I had this thread bookmarked when it started out. Being a big fan of the old mega mods and BWS I was thrilled to see the scope and take of this mod.
I can easily live with the OP items (I play Dark Horizons regularly). I can even live with being demoted to second or third place - as long as charname gets its share of innate powers and such. Cringeworthy is not a problem either (I have played both Sarileth and Imoen romance and have zero problem with both).
But I can’t live with the lack of respect from the author. I have seen a heap of modders asking for something quite simple and aught to be mandatory: consent before changing.
Even after being asked directly about these minor things the author has shunted the majority of the community. And furthermore derailed the topics where her work is being discussed by creating alts that praised her work. Had that time only been spent on reparation instead of fake PR...
Lately I have even seen her disciples having plain stolen artwork from others and have posted the artwork as their own work - included in a new mod. I cannot fathom how disgusted the creators must feel seeing their work stolen and used by others without credit or consent.
Seeing all this, I removed my bookmark and I am saddened to see that their is no solution to this. I guess I can’t stop people playing a mega mod that I under other circumstances would absolutely love to play - but I will advice everybody to steer clear and enjoy all the other mods that don’t rely on stolen content or unaccepted changed content. There is plenty of it out there.
So if any feel that the replies in this thread are a bit toxic, it has its reasons. I am sorry if any feel chastised in this thread, just be aware that this subject is toxic and your posts inadvertently causes some lash back from a situation yet unresolved. So feel free to post as you like in here, but be aware that this thread may be the most toxic thread on this forum (that still exists...). The other not Roxanne threads are for instance quite mellow.
I semi-jokingly made a comment previously of doing a Let's (not) Play of this thing in which I go through it piece by piece highlighting everything that's wrong about it. Do I actually need to do this?
@Skitia "Sarah has a ton of cross-mod. Some of it even adds extra material to those characters, which is actually pretty cool. That is its main strong point IMO, it plays very well with other mods and adds more to them."
Actually, this is another huge problem with the mod. Roxxanne wrote a lot of dialogue for other peoples' characters without asking for permission, and directly against their wishes in some cases.
@marcnivar You're initial post is INCREDIBLY similar to dozens of other posts by a Roxanne alt. Chill with the indignation. Nobody insulted you.
I had thought she had removed cases of dialogues created against their wishes , so wasn't going to overly hold it against her. I can see and understand some mod authors including things of long-deactivated modders they can't get a hold of, or even without asking, but still doing so after they say "Don't", is messed up, if true.
Though I don't see Marcnivar as being anything remotely close to a Roxanne Alt, and I would probably be offended if I was even jokingly accused as being her in fairness.
@StummvonBordwehr I wouldn't hold what a "disciple" does against Roxanne (Unless she includes said artwork and miscredits it.) I guess beyond a plea to be ethical there isn't much we can do. It's sad that people need to lie about it. I'd rather the artists get the credit (I.E., Recorder's Artist, Nicole Cadet over at https://www.nicolecadet.com/ is nothing /short/ of amazing.) We will see more of that amazing work if we credit the right people (And pay them so they can keep doing it.)
Which is why I'm hopeful their next project, if they ever do anything else, takes all the bad from this one and learns from it. It would be nice to see someone redeem their reputation. Because while it is a mod with a lot of "wrongs" as AionZ states, I still hold it's not the worst mod ever...just a mod with the poorest reputation. Only the old Imoen mod and Chosen of Mystra is really comparable in terms of reputation, and the Imoen Mod really cleaned up its reputation into a much more well liked current incarnation, and well, newer people probably don't know about the CoM stories as much.
It’s ok @Skitia. I should have made my self more clear the first time around
I was talking about the Sea tower mods. I shall see if I got the story straight:
A modder presented it self on this site seeking help and feedback. We all stood in awe by the beautiful art work, but then learned that it was borrowed without consent.
To absolutely no surprise the site users on this site asked the said modder to seek consent and repair what was broken. But to no avail. The mod was finished later with a big helping hand from Roxanne. Who seemingly was the only one given credit (oh the irony..)
The modder who made the artwork originally finished his/her mod with the help from the G3 crew. And thank you for that.
The copycat modder thusly became a Roxanne disciple as I see it. Another modder with no respect for the rest of the community. And yes I do blame Roxanne for that. She should know better by now
@Skitia "Sarah has a ton of cross-mod. Some of it even adds extra material to those characters, which is actually pretty cool. That is its main strong point IMO, it plays very well with other mods and adds more to them."
Actually, this is another huge problem with the mod. Roxxanne wrote a lot of dialogue for other peoples' characters without asking for permission, and directly against their wishes in some cases.
@marcnivar You're initial post is INCREDIBLY similar to dozens of other posts by a Roxanne alt. Chill with the indignation. Nobody insulted you.
I just mentioned my opinions for this MOD. Then...
Someone told me I have some kind of mental condition.
Someone greeted me as the alt of someone which could have caused my account being banned.
And they justified this because my post is similar to someone alt...Everything just based on guessing, without any solid reason or investigation, simply assumption...
Surprisingly, I didn't get any proper apologize and they don't think they offended other people.
And some were talking about respecting other people here when this happen.
I found this INCREDIBLY interesting.
---
Thanks @Skitia , at least I'm not the only one who consider this can offend other people.
So if any feel that the replies in this thread are a bit toxic, it has its reasons. I am sorry if any feel chastised in this thread, just be aware that this subject is toxic and your posts inadvertently causes some lash back from a situation yet unresolved. So feel free to post as you like in here, but be aware that this thread may be the most toxic thread on this forum (that still exists...). The other not Roxanne threads are for instance quite mellow.
I love reading toxic threads, but I don't want anyone to feel sad or offended. Is it possible to have both at the same time?
So if any feel that the replies in this thread are a bit toxic, it has its reasons. I am sorry if any feel chastised in this thread, just be aware that this subject is toxic and your posts inadvertently causes some lash back from a situation yet unresolved. So feel free to post as you like in here, but be aware that this thread may be the most toxic thread on this forum (that still exists...). The other not Roxanne threads are for instance quite mellow.
I love reading toxic threads, but I don't want anyone to feel sad or offended. Is it possible to have both at the same time?
@Ludwig_II and @marcnivar
Off course we can. And I am sorry if we all lashed out. For that I apologise.
I was just trying to explain why we all acted like we did, but did not consider that I thusly became a part of the problem.
So with out further ado: @marcnivar, welcome to the forum. You are most welcome here. I reckon that you have just witnessed the most toxic threads in this forum, so feel free to stick around. The other threads are quite jovial (well besides the politics thread...).
In general we try to uphold a very positive attitude at this site, but this particular topic is quite toxic. We shall do our utmost not to hold that against you - and anybody else.
And as noted before, I do love the idea behind the mod, so your reports are most welcome.
I sincerely hope that Roxanne will reach out, make the necessary reparations and be redeemed. The modding scene is noted for its friendly and cooperative approach, and Roxanne should be a part of that - not be on the outside by her own choosing. But that’s another story.
@marcnivar No, what happened is that I made a joke because you said the mod stopped bothering you after awhile. Another poster made a joke about roxanne alts, because your phrasing is similar to dozens of other posts made by accounts confirmed to be her alts. Nobody accused you of having a disorder or of being roxanne. If its was serious, mods would have already been investigating your account.
For someone complaining about respect, you seem to be going out of your way to assume the worst of everyone else.
Why don’t we wrap it up for today? The many Roxanne alts from the first pages in this thread is perhaps getting the better of us? Let’s try to be welcoming and forthcoming - the general view on Roxanne and her actions is pretty obvious anyway.
@marcnivar No, what happened is that I made a joke because you said the mod stopped bothering you after awhile. Another poster made a joke about roxanne alts, because your phrasing is similar to dozens of other posts made by accounts confirmed to be her alts. Nobody accused you of having a disorder or of being roxanne. If its was serious, mods would have already been investigating your account.
For someone complaining about respect, you seem to be going out of your way to assume the worst of everyone else.
So if someone say something like I have mental syndrome and I am someone else alt (who previously had multiple alt being banned), I should automatically perceive this as a joke, and if I don't or if I feel offended, it is my problem of thinking worst of everyone...
I am sorry as I couldn't get the logic behind this, so I will stop here.
So if any feel that the replies in this thread are a bit toxic, it has its reasons. I am sorry if any feel chastised in this thread, just be aware that this subject is toxic and your posts inadvertently causes some lash back from a situation yet unresolved. So feel free to post as you like in here, but be aware that this thread may be the most toxic thread on this forum (that still exists...). The other not Roxanne threads are for instance quite mellow.
I love reading toxic threads, but I don't want anyone to feel sad or offended. Is it possible to have both at the same time?
@Ludwig_II and @marcnivar
Off course we can. And I am sorry if we all lashed out. For that I apologise.
I was just trying to explain why we all acted like we did, but did not consider that I thusly became a part of the problem.
So with out further ado: @marcnivar, welcome to the forum. You are most welcome here. I reckon that you have just witnessed the most toxic threads in this forum, so feel free to stick around. The other threads are quite jovial (well besides the politics thread...).
In general we try to uphold a very positive attitude at this site, but this particular topic is quite toxic. We shall do our utmost not to hold that against you - and anybody else.
And as noted before, I do love the idea behind the mod, so your reports are most welcome.
I sincerely hope that Roxanne will reach out, make the necessary reparations and be redeemed. The modding scene is noted for its friendly and cooperative approach, and Roxanne should be a part of that - not be on the outside by her own choosing. But that’s another story.
Hi , I am sorry if my previous post looks like getting you involved. It was not my intention. I was just unhappy with what those two said here. I appreciate your efforts to explain the things out.
@marcnivar No, what happened is that I made a joke because you said the mod stopped bothering you after awhile. Another poster made a joke about roxanne alts, because your phrasing is similar to dozens of other posts made by accounts confirmed to be her alts. Nobody accused you of having a disorder or of being roxanne. If its was serious, mods would have already been investigating your account.
For someone complaining about respect, you seem to be going out of your way to assume the worst of everyone else.
So if someone say something like I have mental syndrome and I am someone else alt (who previously had multiple alt being banned), I should automatically perceive this as a joke, and if I don't or if I feel offended, it is my problem of thinking worst of everyone...
I am sorry as I couldn't get the logic behind this, so I will stop here.
No, what I'm saying is that when these people tell you they were joking, you should take them at their word. Being combative is not helping.
In fairness, it was a poor joke. Marcnivar's reaction is totally understandable here.
I dont know, I thought it was pretty clever.
I always come back to the thought that in concept, the idea of Sandrah's Saga isnt a terrible one. At least, when distilled and not including the vast majority of the mod (which I havent really played much of, but have read about)
Sarevok acts as a foil to Charname, having similar-ish circumstances with a wildly different worldview/objective. The idea of another NPC that travels along with Charname that operates as another foil is pretty interesting (Especially since Sarevok as a foil isnt evident until late into the game).
Imoen serves are that in a fashion, but based on the lack of content for her in BG1, that's basically a non-starter.
So I started a playthrough with this mod installed, and quickly grew annoyed with how intrusive it is. I've been keeping a Word file worth of notes on things that troubled me, and felt like sharing it. I haven't yet started Chapter 2, but it's already a pretty long list, so beware of that before clicking the spoilers.
Her starting items are endgame level in quality, though lacking the in game descriptions that would tell you so. You have to use NearInfinity to find it out. If you remove them, she will generate copies out of thin air and equip them automatically. Among the many benefits of these items, they give her Improved Haste and Improved Invisibility three times per rest each.
She starts with powerful innate abilities, most notably True Sight—arguably the greatest Divination spell—which should be unavailable at her level. She gains more innate abilities at an unprecedented rate and ease. For example: simply meeting a thief character is enough to give her Knock as a once per day ability, free of the need to spend a spell slot to memorize it. Walking into a temple gives her Cure Disease in the same manner, with the number of castings increasing for each temple she enters. Stuff like that continues throughout the game. She quickly amasses more spells than any other character can without using a save editor to cheat their way there. The PC, despite being the child of a god rather than the child of a famous wizard, cannot come close to matching this.
Even better than her innate abilities, she can cast Raise Dead at level 1 as many times per day as she wishes. It is done through dialogue, without the need for a spellslot.
She can Identify any item in the game, and has unlimited uses of the ability per day, again without the need for a spellslot.
Imoen sings her praises. Being in her presence for an hour or so is enough to get Imoen to change her class and start the game as a mage, which a decade or more living in Candlekeep surrounded by mages like Gorion and Tethtoril had not. This directly contradicts the canon version of Imoen written by the creators of Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2. To me, that is unacceptable.
There is a separate mod that adds a wolf pet named Haiass. Sandrah alters this mod. Haiass’ starting location is changed. He now approaches Sandrah instead of you, and cosies up to her leg while giving you wary glances, as if you have been mean to him in the years you’ve had him. The message is clear: even your dog likes her more. Haiass is buffed significantly, too, and is fully capable of soloing most enemies in BG1 now. In case not enough hands were being held already.
Bundled with the Sandrah Saga are several alternate portraits for original NPCs, and even some mod ones. These were not to my taste and were installed automatically. As an example of the quality: Nalia’s portrait is now a picture of the character Lulu from FFX—a busty and mature brunette.
She tells you things that are perfectly obvious as if you are too stupid to have figured them out. For example: she points out that the people who want you dead know you have left Candlekeep, as if that’s supposed to be a great insight. This occurs well after Sarevok ambushes you and kills Gorion—outside Candlekeep. Dialogue options to rebuke her for her condescension are few, and always reacted to with hostility by Sandrah and other NPCs.
She despises and dismisses Xzar and Montaron on sight. That one is understandable enough since, while she shouldn’t really judge a book by its cover, their cover is a particularly ratty and dirty one.
Elminster has a page worth of dialogue with her when first met. Narratively acceptable due to their relationship, except that its placed in between his question to you and your answer, leading to you seemingly standing there for five minutes or so waiting for the chance to speak.
Dialogue options are few during talks with her. In some cases there is only one option, and those lines are often ones in which the PC sings her praises in flowery, grammatically incorrect English. There are almost never more than two options to choose from in her talks.
She knows that Tarnesh is a bounty hunter after the very first line he speaks, and interjects. The subsequent dialogue in which it’s implied that he might or might not be one of the friends you came to the Friendly Arm to meet is completely undercut by this. When asked how she knew afterwards, she says it was intuition.
Tarnesh’s spellbook—an item added by the BG1NPC project and implied to be part of Imoen’s fledgling career as a mage, appears to be erased from the game upon installing Sandrah, presumably to reinforce the idea that she was the one who inspired Imoen’s career choice.
As with Elminster, Jaheira and Khalid have a lengthy conversation with her on first meeting, while the PC is left standing there in silence, their dialogue tree interrupted.
Jaheira distrusts her somewhat, which is a nice change. Khalid fancies her, however, and will flirt with her right in front of his wife. When alone with Sandrah his stutter disappears, only to come back when Jaheira does. The implication that she is the better woman for him is plain, and dovetails with Jaheira’s unwelcoming reaction in an eyebrow-raising manner.
The githyanki NPC added as part of the mod, Jen’lig, will not even spawn unless Sandrah is in the party. There is no in-story reason for this. Jen’lig has a vorpal weapon at level 1. She also has a psionic attack that always hits, does good damage and knockback, and that she will use automatically every few rounds, with no rest required. Almost every fight in the game is rendered trivial.
Jen’lig will leave you forever if you remove Sandrah from the party. They have no history together, it is simply that she will declare you an idiot and unworthy of following if you replace Sandrah with any other NPC, original or mod added.
Sandrah spoils the surprise of the Girdle of Gender, identifying it as soon as it is picked up, without needing to Identify it.
Neera fawns over her, of course, with never a hint of the irreverence she shows to everyone else. She is demanding with the PC and the rest of the characters, but submissive with Sandrah.
Sandrah knows about Branwen and her condition long before reaching Nashkel. She tells you to go free her, and threatens to petrify you if you refuse. All subsequent dialogue options oblige you to bow to her demand. You cannot refuse her, much less return her threat. Though there is no connection between them, she randomly saw Branwen in a magic crystal and correctly guesses that some “deranged misfit” might have started using her to make money. The fourth wall is left paper thin.
She negates the Marl encounter in Feldepost’s entirely, with a single line and a look that causes him to start trembling, stutter an apology and then run away. None of the other characters in the game can do this; the likes of Kagain or Minsc he will attack if not talked down in an eight branch dialogue tree. But one look from Sandrah sends him running.
After Sandrah takes a bath and cleans up in Feldepost’s, the narrative helpfully informs you that her beauty “nearly knocks you out”.
Garrick declares her the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. He is far from the only one to do so. If anything, it is rare for a character not to describe her thus, even while in the presence of Viconia, Jaheira, Branwen, Safana, a female PC with maxed out charisma, or any mod characters. Sandrah has only 15 charisma and her portraits show a rather plain looking blonde girl ... And even if that were not the case, tastes vary too much for it be plausible that everyone fancies her. And even if that were not the case, people simply do not go around speaking in such a fawningly purple manner.
Kagain hits on her. Yes, that Kagain. He even goes so far as to claim a right to sexual services, expressing a simplistic misogyny that is absent in all interactions with a female PC or other NPCs.
The mod NPC Finch fangirls over her, and gets lectured on the unimportance of books compared to practical knowledge. She accepts this without offering a counter-argument.
She interrupts the initial meeting with the mod NPC Gavin, who has lines inserted in which he fawns over her. Like most characters, he addresses her as “my lady”, which felt anachronistic to me given how rarely I see characters in these games use such titles, even when addressing nobles like Keldorn, Anomen, Valygar, Jaheira and so forth.
The famously grouchy Thalantyr is pleased to see her, and praises her beauty.
She interrupts the scene after Melicamp is cured. Once again there is an awkwardly long exchange inserted between one bit of canon dialogue and the response. This is done for no apparent reason, other than to establish that he is into her, too, and they used to date. She says nothing if he dies while Thalantyr is trying to cure him. Melicamp’s dialogue states that he only started experimenting with magic items because he was heartbroken that she left him, which makes no sense since he would have done that in an unmodded game anyway.
She gets involved in some rather oddly abrupt sexual encounters with various characters. She fucks Taerom within a minute of meeting him, while the rest of the party stands around waiting for her to be done, and exchanges two lines with Bjornin before fucking him, too.
There is no option for a female PC to refuse her advances when she comes into your room on resting. You can break up with her afterwards, but you cannot choose not to have sex with her. No allowance is made for a straight woman who does not want to have a lesbian affair, nor can a lesbian woman say that they just don’t fancy her. You will have sex with Sandrah whether you like it or not. I could swear there is a word for that ...
A male PC can refuse her advances, with the dialogue being to say that you are tired and want to sleep. Sandrah will remove herself from the party and the game entirely in response to being denied the dick. Which is better than forcing herself on you, at least.
Tarnesh’s spellbook—an item added by the BG1NPC project and implied to be part of Imoen’s fledgling career as a mage, appears to be erased from the game upon installing Sandrah, presumably to reinforce the idea that she was the one who inspired Imoen’s career choice.
The incident with Tarnesh's spellbook only happens when Imoen is not a mage (single/dualled) already. This is original BG1NPC behavior. You mentioned that Imoen changes her class to mage soon after meeting Sandrah, in case this happened even before meeting Tarnesh then not getting Imoen's dialogue about his spellbook would not be Sandrah mod's doing.
On the other hand I have no idea why I would speak up for a mod who's author doesn't even bother to stick to their word and remove "crossmod" content which removal was requested in the original author's name long ago.
So I started a playthrough with this mod installed, and quickly grew annoyed with how intrusive it is. I've been keeping a Word file worth of notes on things that troubled me, and felt like sharing it. I haven't yet started Chapter 2, but it's already a pretty long list, so beware of that before clicking the spoilers.
Her starting items are endgame level in quality, though lacking the in game descriptions that would tell you so. You have to use NearInfinity to find it out. If you remove them, she will generate copies out of thin air and equip them automatically. Among the many benefits of these items, they give her Improved Haste and Improved Invisibility three times per rest each.
She starts with powerful innate abilities, most notably True Sight—arguably the greatest Divination spell—which should be unavailable at her level. She gains more innate abilities at an unprecedented rate and ease. For example: simply meeting a thief character is enough to give her Knock as a once per day ability, free of the need to spend a spell slot to memorize it. Walking into a temple gives her Cure Disease in the same manner, with the number of castings increasing for each temple she enters. Stuff like that continues throughout the game. She quickly amasses more spells than any other character can without using a save editor to cheat their way there. The PC, despite being the child of a god rather than the child of a famous wizard, cannot come close to matching this.
Even better than her innate abilities, she can cast Raise Dead at level 1 as many times per day as she wishes. It is done through dialogue, without the need for a spellslot.
She can Identify any item in the game, and has unlimited uses of the ability per day, again without the need for a spellslot.
Imoen sings her praises. Being in her presence for an hour or so is enough to get Imoen to change her class and start the game as a mage, which a decade or more living in Candlekeep surrounded by mages like Gorion and Tethtoril had not. This directly contradicts the canon version of Imoen written by the creators of Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2. To me, that is unacceptable.
There is a separate mod that adds a wolf pet named Haiass. Sandrah alters this mod. Haiass’ starting location is changed. He now approaches Sandrah instead of you, and cosies up to her leg while giving you wary glances, as if you have been mean to him in the years you’ve had him. The message is clear: even your dog likes her more. Haiass is buffed significantly, too, and is fully capable of soloing most enemies in BG1 now. In case not enough hands were being held already.
Bundled with the Sandrah Saga are several alternate portraits for original NPCs, and even some mod ones. These were not to my taste and were installed automatically. As an example of the quality: Nalia’s portrait is now a picture of the character Lulu from FFX—a busty and mature brunette.
She tells you things that are perfectly obvious as if you are too stupid to have figured them out. For example: she points out that the people who want you dead know you have left Candlekeep, as if that’s supposed to be a great insight. This occurs well after Sarevok ambushes you and kills Gorion—outside Candlekeep. Dialogue options to rebuke her for her condescension are few, and always reacted to with hostility by Sandrah and other NPCs.
She despises and dismisses Xzar and Montaron on sight. That one is understandable enough since, while she shouldn’t really judge a book by its cover, their cover is a particularly ratty and dirty one.
Elminster has a page worth of dialogue with her when first met. Narratively acceptable due to their relationship, except that its placed in between his question to you and your answer, leading to you seemingly standing there for five minutes or so waiting for the chance to speak.
Dialogue options are few during talks with her. In some cases there is only one option, and those lines are often ones in which the PC sings her praises in flowery, grammatically incorrect English. There are almost never more than two options to choose from in her talks.
She knows that Tarnesh is a bounty hunter after the very first line he speaks, and interjects. The subsequent dialogue in which it’s implied that he might or might not be one of the friends you came to the Friendly Arm to meet is completely undercut by this. When asked how she knew afterwards, she says it was intuition.
Tarnesh’s spellbook—an item added by the BG1NPC project and implied to be part of Imoen’s fledgling career as a mage, appears to be erased from the game upon installing Sandrah, presumably to reinforce the idea that she was the one who inspired Imoen’s career choice.
As with Elminster, Jaheira and Khalid have a lengthy conversation with her on first meeting, while the PC is left standing there in silence, their dialogue tree interrupted.
Jaheira distrusts her somewhat, which is a nice change. Khalid fancies her, however, and will flirt with her right in front of his wife. When alone with Sandrah his stutter disappears, only to come back when Jaheira does. The implication that she is the better woman for him is plain, and dovetails with Jaheira’s unwelcoming reaction in an eyebrow-raising manner.
The githyanki NPC added as part of the mod, Jen’lig, will not even spawn unless Sandrah is in the party. There is no in-story reason for this. Jen’lig has a vorpal weapon at level 1. She also has a psionic attack that always hits, does good damage and knockback, and that she will use automatically every few rounds, with no rest required. Almost every fight in the game is rendered trivial.
Jen’lig will leave you forever if you remove Sandrah from the party. They have no history together, it is simply that she will declare you an idiot and unworthy of following if you replace Sandrah with any other NPC, original or mod added.
Sandrah spoils the surprise of the Girdle of Gender, identifying it as soon as it is picked up, without needing to Identify it.
Neera fawns over her, of course, with never a hint of the irreverence she shows to everyone else. She is demanding with the PC and the rest of the characters, but submissive with Sandrah.
Sandrah knows about Branwen and her condition long before reaching Nashkel. She tells you to go free her, and threatens to petrify you if you refuse. All subsequent dialogue options oblige you to bow to her demand. You cannot refuse her, much less return her threat. Though there is no connection between them, she randomly saw Branwen in a magic crystal and correctly guesses that some “deranged misfit” might have started using her to make money. The fourth wall is left paper thin.
She negates the Marl encounter in Feldepost’s entirely, with a single line and a look that causes him to start trembling, stutter an apology and then run away. None of the other characters in the game can do this; the likes of Kagain or Minsc he will attack if not talked down in an eight branch dialogue tree. But one look from Sandrah sends him running.
After Sandrah takes a bath and cleans up in Feldepost’s, the narrative helpfully informs you that her beauty “nearly knocks you out”.
Garrick declares her the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. He is far from the only one to do so. If anything, it is rare for a character not to describe her thus, even while in the presence of Viconia, Jaheira, Branwen, Safana, a female PC with maxed out charisma, or any mod characters. Sandrah has only 15 charisma and her portraits show a rather plain looking blonde girl ... And even if that were not the case, tastes vary too much for it be plausible that everyone fancies her. And even if that were not the case, people simply do not go around speaking in such a fawningly purple manner.
Kagain hits on her. Yes, that Kagain. He even goes so far as to claim a right to sexual services, expressing a simplistic misogyny that is absent in all interactions with a female PC or other NPCs.
The mod NPC Finch fangirls over her, and gets lectured on the unimportance of books compared to practical knowledge. She accepts this without offering a counter-argument.
She interrupts the initial meeting with the mod NPC Gavin, who has lines inserted in which he fawns over her. Like most characters, he addresses her as “my lady”, which felt anachronistic to me given how rarely I see characters in these games use such titles, even when addressing nobles like Keldorn, Anomen, Valygar, Jaheira and so forth.
The famously grouchy Thalantyr is pleased to see her, and praises her beauty.
She interrupts the scene after Melicamp is cured. Once again there is an awkwardly long exchange inserted between one bit of canon dialogue and the response. This is done for no apparent reason, other than to establish that he is into her, too, and they used to date. She says nothing if he dies while Thalantyr is trying to cure him. Melicamp’s dialogue states that he only started experimenting with magic items because he was heartbroken that she left him, which makes no sense since he would have done that in an unmodded game anyway.
She gets involved in some rather oddly abrupt sexual encounters with various characters. She fucks Taerom within a minute of meeting him, while the rest of the party stands around waiting for her to be done, and exchanges two lines with Bjornin before fucking him, too.
There is no option for a female PC to refuse her advances when she comes into your room on resting. You can break up with her afterwards, but you cannot choose not to have sex with her. No allowance is made for a straight woman who does not want to have a lesbian affair, nor can a lesbian woman say that they just don’t fancy her. You will have sex with Sandrah whether you like it or not. I could swear there is a word for that ...
A male PC can refuse her advances, with the dialogue being to say that you are tired and want to sleep. Sandrah will remove herself from the party and the game entirely in response to being denied the dick. Which is better than forcing herself on you, at least.
Hey, its not that bad.
Even if Sandrah's Sueness gets annoying after a while the satisfaction of being the one and only being on Faerun who would refuse to give her the dick leaving her traumatized and heartbroken is well worth it.
Gorion's Ward reclaims his plot relevance in his own story by breaking Sandrah's ego in the most painful way.
Lol. That's true. My heroic chastity might well have saved the world, or at least the game. I had gone into this thing blind, thinking any mod that added Waterdeep had to be worth at least one playthrough but ... no. It's just too bad; offensively bad. I was thinking of loading an earlier save and playing on with her, but having read through this let's play:
I've decided to just let her walk away in a pique, despite knowing that the famed metropolis of Waterdeep will now bar its gates to me since I am no longer in the good graces of the Sandrah. No amount of quest content and tome-selling stores could be worth putting up with this.
The term Mary Sue gets thrown around too casually these days, IMO, but Sandrah really is one, in the classical sense. A self-insert character who makes everything about her and twists the personalities of all around her such that they exist only to inflate her ego. Truly an awful mod. I feel like I would be being irresponsible not to post a warning for anyone who was tempted to play it due to the impressive scope, as I was. Don't do it. You'll regret it if you do.
@Stev
Thanks for the warning! I was seriously considering playing Sandrah Saga since it has Waterdeep, but the mod seems to be all about the self-insert wannabe goddess character.
Comments
One of the most frustrating things about Sandrah the NPC is the custom combat AI in her override script. Selecting an AI script for her is useless, because she'll ignore it (and also ignore most commands you give her). This goes for Jenlig as well. So, putting them in a corner is fruitless, because they will do their own thing regardless of what you tell them. This, I believe, is why Roxanne is so adamant that her mod be installed last - really, I think she just wants it installed after SCS, so that SCS won't mess with her AI scripts.
Sort of.
Wanna earn some serious cash at the beginning of the game? Here's how:
1) Pick up Sandrah and make your way to a merchant. Sell all of her equipment. This will net you around 100,000 gp.
2) As soon as this is done, Sandrah will spawn new copies of all of her equipment.
3) Become a millionaire in record time!
But anyway... she can be unequiped, but it doesn't always take. If you put any of her items in another character's inventory, she'll take it back. If you sell or drop it, she spawns new copies. If you boot her from the party then take her back, she will equip all of her stuff. Looking at the code, it appears Roxanne's intent is for Sandrah to immediately re-equip an item if it is unequiped, but her code doesn't work properly.
Sandrah the NPC is tightly integrated into every last little addition in the mod. There is no way to do *any* of the new content with out her present and conscious. The best you can do is tap through her dialog. Of which there is a copious amount.
- I really like the idea of this MOD
- I trust my friend's taste, if he likes something that most people dislike (at least in this thread), there must be something worth trying
My first impression of this MOD is nothing much different from what many peoples already said in this thread. However, as I proceed further (chapter 6 of BG1 now), most of the thing I dislike initially are no longer disturbing me. For example, I simply don't use any equipment from the MOD, which make some fights quite challenging (interesting) actually. Sandrah also seems stop flirting / having sex with `everyone` after some time (after Nashkel i think). As for `Mary Sue`, I read something that she won't be like this forever. I will see how she changes later, but generally I'm OK with how she is now.
As of now, I can say I really enjoy the contents added in this MOD. I have not played any MOD which has added so many things and according to the walk-through, it seems like most of the big quests I'm doing now are `bigger` than I thought...those stories will continue in BG2 and RTF, and have some connections to each other or the main quests....
Now I know why my friend recommended this MOD to me. He knows I love this type of quest's design in WRPG. Yes, this MOD indeed has its flaws, it is not perfect, just like any `good MOD` we have out there. However, I still found it interesting enough for me to continue, in my opinion, it makes the BG1 like a new and bigger game to explore, and I really appreciate the works to make the plots thicken.
I will see if my opinion changes later. (I hope not!)
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Decided to update here on why I eventually gave up on this MOD after almost 300 hours invested.
First reason is I went for other games for a while and then my hard disk spoiled... I didn't choose to back up Sandrah's Saga game because I feel like whatever I have expected is unlikely to happen when I was around 50% of SOA.
The author said Sandrah is not Mary Sue and she won't be like this forever. However, after 300 hours, she is still right for everything, everyone still love her (except those npc that the author doen't like them) in BG2. Too many flirts and sexual contents that made the original NPCs look like different person, they are losing their personality that I love for almost 20 years.
No matter how I nerved Sandrah with EE keeper, or restricted myself to not using MOD items, the game is still too easy. Gameplay is why I play BG2 for 20 years, if battle in SOA is just like hack and slash, I rather stop playing.
The more I see the fully original contents created by this MOD (e.g. the big quest for Minsc and his new witch in SOA), I feel like it's probably OK, but the original NPC looks different, and the author seems like doesn't really care about the DND lore. I understand MOD cannot be perfectly lore friendly but if it is different from those that you can easily google and get from wiki, or it's commonly accepted in those well known DND novels, then I won't be able to really enjoy the game. In the end I quit before playing sequel created by the author, as I know, it definitely won't match with The Avatar Trilogy.
This MOD has something really cool, but unfortunately, the things that I dislike are actually more. In my opinion, it is not recommended unless someday the author is willing to remove those unnecessary flirts that may break the personality of the original npcs, reduce the Mary Sue of Sandrah and adjust the balance.
I feel like mod with such scale needs more people to cooperate and work.
I would also like to thank the author for her helps when I play the game, she helps with all of my questions, no matter related to her MOD or just my own personal request.
That's called stockholm syndrome.
If I had to sum up my opinion, Sandrah has potential to be one of the great NPC mods due to its sheer content, but falls far short because of first impressions and the execution of the writing and NPC interactions, as well as the modder's interactions with others and behavior on this site, which is also important.
It would be a great Neverwinter Nights mod, because the rules there are different and your character could be more or less guided. But it definitely has a shift with the rest of Baldur's Gate with how the player responses are written.
The romantic scenes are a little too adult in some places to fit Baldur's Gate T rating, the mod would be rated M for sure, but I think that's fine if that's the style you want. Some people might like that.
The mod's conclusion in ToB does have some PC influence, a bad CHARNAME could have a lot of people suddenly hostile, including Sandrah, if they mess up and their entire party just drop out to watch, which I found pretty amusing, and totally curious if a CHARNAME could somehow win this battle.
If I could immediately recommend one change, it would be the ability to call her out and form a different opinion beyond "Sandrah is breathtaking beautiful." There is nothing wrong with her having multiple hook-ups, some people are charming enough to entice people to such arrangements and enjoy a quick fling, but allow <CHARNAME> to be jealous or think it improper because they're more traditional about love and argue. If everything Sandrah does is not perceived to be perfect/well-received, she would not be a Mary-Sue, and that would probably fix one part of the first impression. There are someplaces where you can, but ultimately the paths didn't vary enough from observation.
Sarah has a ton of cross-mod. Some of it even adds extra material to those characters, which is actually pretty cool. That is its main strong point IMO, it plays very well with other mods and adds more to them.
Balancing Items is rather easy, I think just listening and implementing feedback usually helps get the numbers to the right place.
I did like what I saw from the quests too.
I guess ultimately it is the age old question of how much should an NPC mod focus on the NPC character? I think due to criticism other mods have gotten, some NPC mods do not give enough information about themselves, they avoid any quests of exploration, and I think that is a miss. Over-focus can be bad too, which Sandrah suffers, but it can be fun exploring someone else's story.
As I said before though, I would love to see Roxanne tackle a new project. I think as they got further along in their mod they got better, so I would bet their next project would actually be much better.
TL:DR; Sandrah is not the worst mod ever and has its bright points. In fact, I would give that distinction to Lord Miraboo's original Imoen Romance mod, 1.202 (The 3.0 series is so much better). The 1.202 version handles mature themes very, very poorly, and ultimately has poor execution all over the place. That alone says there is potential for strong growth for Sandrah if the mod author wants to revisit it and adjust aspects, or in their next project. I'm confident they'll do a much better job.
As explained before, if someone did something I don't like but she changed her behavior after that, I do not need to have whatever syndrome to change my opinion of that person. If I don't like a game initially doesn't mean I need to have whatever syndrome to have different opinion after seeing other interesting parts of that game.
With all seriousness, though, there are many reasons to try the cheesiest of them all additions to the games. Have you seen some Skyrim make-ups/costumes? Or take any Korean MMO - the looked is so eclectic bizarre chaotic with every element clashes with another, and yet millions are enjoying it. So, nothing wrong here. All you need is to understand what you are signing up for.
1. You loose the main story - Baalspawn is no more a protagonist but a sidekick (Sandrah Saga, remember?)
2. You loose side-stories as well - it is still about Sandrah and NPCs talk to her, not you.
3. You loose NPCs: the old one have different personalities (sorry, they have ONE personality now - deeply in love with Sandrah, with badly written modern language confessions of said love at every opportunity), the new one are important for new quests, hence, mandatory if you came for the content. So, old-companions-be-gone.
4. You loose the combat part of the game - Sandrah (and new NPCs) will solve every encounter for you with their OP equipment and skills.
Do you get anything for all these losses? Sure!
1. Obvious things - a huge new story with the new NPCs/areas, made of the same models and roughly in the same timeline. Bad quality, but new.
2. A mix of almost every mod out there. And those mods will work together! Story-wise, it might not make sense (sometimes), but those mods will be there and will play without crashes (for the most part)! You want to see what community came up with for the last years? Install Sandrah and enjoy. If you want to see those mods "as is" - ignore Snadrah. You will miss her part, but can get other mods in their purity.
3. God Mod without need to switch that god-mod on - OP equipment will do it for you.
The only reason to never give the mod a chance would be if you truly care about copyright - as in "do not change mods from others without their permission". If such things bother you - do not install the mod, because Sandrah includes every other work without regards of other mods integrity. Other then that - as always, check it up yourself (and be prepared to pay for your curiosity
I was just saying the MOD has some contents that I found it interesting, but...Wow! see how people here reacted...One insulted me with whatever syndrome...and the other one accused me as Roxanne's alt...
Feel free to say anything bad about this MOD or the author, everyone can have their opinions. We have to respect that. I hope you can do the same. At least, do some investigation before accusing other people.
----
Go back to what I wanted to say initially.
I just finished the quests of the Isle of Balduran...Surprisingly, I found that Sandrah's Saga has added an alternative peaceful solution for this quest. Really appreciate that, during my previous play-through, I really hate killing all of the villagers which I helped them in the side quests, such as the girl who is looking for her doll.
Actually, this is another huge problem with the mod. Roxxanne wrote a lot of dialogue for other peoples' characters without asking for permission, and directly against their wishes in some cases.
@marcnivar You're initial post is INCREDIBLY similar to dozens of other posts by a Roxanne alt. Chill with the indignation. Nobody insulted you.
I can easily live with the OP items (I play Dark Horizons regularly). I can even live with being demoted to second or third place - as long as charname gets its share of innate powers and such. Cringeworthy is not a problem either (I have played both Sarileth and Imoen romance and have zero problem with both).
But I can’t live with the lack of respect from the author. I have seen a heap of modders asking for something quite simple and aught to be mandatory: consent before changing.
Even after being asked directly about these minor things the author has shunted the majority of the community. And furthermore derailed the topics where her work is being discussed by creating alts that praised her work. Had that time only been spent on reparation instead of fake PR...
Lately I have even seen her disciples having plain stolen artwork from others and have posted the artwork as their own work - included in a new mod. I cannot fathom how disgusted the creators must feel seeing their work stolen and used by others without credit or consent.
Seeing all this, I removed my bookmark and I am saddened to see that their is no solution to this. I guess I can’t stop people playing a mega mod that I under other circumstances would absolutely love to play - but I will advice everybody to steer clear and enjoy all the other mods that don’t rely on stolen content or unaccepted changed content. There is plenty of it out there.
So if any feel that the replies in this thread are a bit toxic, it has its reasons. I am sorry if any feel chastised in this thread, just be aware that this subject is toxic and your posts inadvertently causes some lash back from a situation yet unresolved. So feel free to post as you like in here, but be aware that this thread may be the most toxic thread on this forum (that still exists...). The other not Roxanne threads are for instance quite mellow.
I had thought she had removed cases of dialogues created against their wishes , so wasn't going to overly hold it against her. I can see and understand some mod authors including things of long-deactivated modders they can't get a hold of, or even without asking, but still doing so after they say "Don't", is messed up, if true.
Though I don't see Marcnivar as being anything remotely close to a Roxanne Alt, and I would probably be offended if I was even jokingly accused as being her in fairness.
@StummvonBordwehr I wouldn't hold what a "disciple" does against Roxanne (Unless she includes said artwork and miscredits it.) I guess beyond a plea to be ethical there isn't much we can do. It's sad that people need to lie about it. I'd rather the artists get the credit (I.E., Recorder's Artist, Nicole Cadet over at https://www.nicolecadet.com/ is nothing /short/ of amazing.) We will see more of that amazing work if we credit the right people (And pay them so they can keep doing it.)
Which is why I'm hopeful their next project, if they ever do anything else, takes all the bad from this one and learns from it. It would be nice to see someone redeem their reputation. Because while it is a mod with a lot of "wrongs" as AionZ states, I still hold it's not the worst mod ever...just a mod with the poorest reputation. Only the old Imoen mod and Chosen of Mystra is really comparable in terms of reputation, and the Imoen Mod really cleaned up its reputation into a much more well liked current incarnation, and well, newer people probably don't know about the CoM stories as much.
I was talking about the Sea tower mods. I shall see if I got the story straight:
A modder presented it self on this site seeking help and feedback. We all stood in awe by the beautiful art work, but then learned that it was borrowed without consent.
To absolutely no surprise the site users on this site asked the said modder to seek consent and repair what was broken. But to no avail. The mod was finished later with a big helping hand from Roxanne. Who seemingly was the only one given credit (oh the irony..)
The modder who made the artwork originally finished his/her mod with the help from the G3 crew. And thank you for that.
The copycat modder thusly became a Roxanne disciple as I see it. Another modder with no respect for the rest of the community. And yes I do blame Roxanne for that. She should know better by now
I just mentioned my opinions for this MOD. Then...
Someone told me I have some kind of mental condition.
Someone greeted me as the alt of someone which could have caused my account being banned.
And they justified this because my post is similar to someone alt...Everything just based on guessing, without any solid reason or investigation, simply assumption...
Surprisingly, I didn't get any proper apologize and they don't think they offended other people.
And some were talking about respecting other people here when this happen.
I found this INCREDIBLY interesting.
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Thanks @Skitia , at least I'm not the only one who consider this can offend other people.
I love reading toxic threads, but I don't want anyone to feel sad or offended. Is it possible to have both at the same time?
Off course we can. And I am sorry if we all lashed out. For that I apologise.
I was just trying to explain why we all acted like we did, but did not consider that I thusly became a part of the problem.
So with out further ado: @marcnivar, welcome to the forum. You are most welcome here. I reckon that you have just witnessed the most toxic threads in this forum, so feel free to stick around. The other threads are quite jovial (well besides the politics thread...).
In general we try to uphold a very positive attitude at this site, but this particular topic is quite toxic. We shall do our utmost not to hold that against you - and anybody else.
And as noted before, I do love the idea behind the mod, so your reports are most welcome.
I sincerely hope that Roxanne will reach out, make the necessary reparations and be redeemed. The modding scene is noted for its friendly and cooperative approach, and Roxanne should be a part of that - not be on the outside by her own choosing. But that’s another story.
For someone complaining about respect, you seem to be going out of your way to assume the worst of everyone else.
Thanks for the tip, let me go read bg3 threads now
So if someone say something like I have mental syndrome and I am someone else alt (who previously had multiple alt being banned), I should automatically perceive this as a joke, and if I don't or if I feel offended, it is my problem of thinking worst of everyone...
I am sorry as I couldn't get the logic behind this, so I will stop here.
Hi , I am sorry if my previous post looks like getting you involved. It was not my intention. I was just unhappy with what those two said here. I appreciate your efforts to explain the things out.
No, what I'm saying is that when these people tell you they were joking, you should take them at their word. Being combative is not helping.
I dont know, I thought it was pretty clever.
I always come back to the thought that in concept, the idea of Sandrah's Saga isnt a terrible one. At least, when distilled and not including the vast majority of the mod (which I havent really played much of, but have read about)
Sarevok acts as a foil to Charname, having similar-ish circumstances with a wildly different worldview/objective. The idea of another NPC that travels along with Charname that operates as another foil is pretty interesting (Especially since Sarevok as a foil isnt evident until late into the game).
Imoen serves are that in a fashion, but based on the lack of content for her in BG1, that's basically a non-starter.
She starts with powerful innate abilities, most notably True Sight—arguably the greatest Divination spell—which should be unavailable at her level. She gains more innate abilities at an unprecedented rate and ease. For example: simply meeting a thief character is enough to give her Knock as a once per day ability, free of the need to spend a spell slot to memorize it. Walking into a temple gives her Cure Disease in the same manner, with the number of castings increasing for each temple she enters. Stuff like that continues throughout the game. She quickly amasses more spells than any other character can without using a save editor to cheat their way there. The PC, despite being the child of a god rather than the child of a famous wizard, cannot come close to matching this.
Even better than her innate abilities, she can cast Raise Dead at level 1 as many times per day as she wishes. It is done through dialogue, without the need for a spellslot.
She can Identify any item in the game, and has unlimited uses of the ability per day, again without the need for a spellslot.
Imoen sings her praises. Being in her presence for an hour or so is enough to get Imoen to change her class and start the game as a mage, which a decade or more living in Candlekeep surrounded by mages like Gorion and Tethtoril had not. This directly contradicts the canon version of Imoen written by the creators of Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2. To me, that is unacceptable.
There is a separate mod that adds a wolf pet named Haiass. Sandrah alters this mod. Haiass’ starting location is changed. He now approaches Sandrah instead of you, and cosies up to her leg while giving you wary glances, as if you have been mean to him in the years you’ve had him. The message is clear: even your dog likes her more. Haiass is buffed significantly, too, and is fully capable of soloing most enemies in BG1 now. In case not enough hands were being held already.
Bundled with the Sandrah Saga are several alternate portraits for original NPCs, and even some mod ones. These were not to my taste and were installed automatically. As an example of the quality: Nalia’s portrait is now a picture of the character Lulu from FFX—a busty and mature brunette.
She tells you things that are perfectly obvious as if you are too stupid to have figured them out. For example: she points out that the people who want you dead know you have left Candlekeep, as if that’s supposed to be a great insight. This occurs well after Sarevok ambushes you and kills Gorion—outside Candlekeep. Dialogue options to rebuke her for her condescension are few, and always reacted to with hostility by Sandrah and other NPCs.
She despises and dismisses Xzar and Montaron on sight. That one is understandable enough since, while she shouldn’t really judge a book by its cover, their cover is a particularly ratty and dirty one.
Elminster has a page worth of dialogue with her when first met. Narratively acceptable due to their relationship, except that its placed in between his question to you and your answer, leading to you seemingly standing there for five minutes or so waiting for the chance to speak.
Dialogue options are few during talks with her. In some cases there is only one option, and those lines are often ones in which the PC sings her praises in flowery, grammatically incorrect English. There are almost never more than two options to choose from in her talks.
She knows that Tarnesh is a bounty hunter after the very first line he speaks, and interjects. The subsequent dialogue in which it’s implied that he might or might not be one of the friends you came to the Friendly Arm to meet is completely undercut by this. When asked how she knew afterwards, she says it was intuition.
Tarnesh’s spellbook—an item added by the BG1NPC project and implied to be part of Imoen’s fledgling career as a mage, appears to be erased from the game upon installing Sandrah, presumably to reinforce the idea that she was the one who inspired Imoen’s career choice.
As with Elminster, Jaheira and Khalid have a lengthy conversation with her on first meeting, while the PC is left standing there in silence, their dialogue tree interrupted.
Jaheira distrusts her somewhat, which is a nice change. Khalid fancies her, however, and will flirt with her right in front of his wife. When alone with Sandrah his stutter disappears, only to come back when Jaheira does. The implication that she is the better woman for him is plain, and dovetails with Jaheira’s unwelcoming reaction in an eyebrow-raising manner.
The githyanki NPC added as part of the mod, Jen’lig, will not even spawn unless Sandrah is in the party. There is no in-story reason for this. Jen’lig has a vorpal weapon at level 1. She also has a psionic attack that always hits, does good damage and knockback, and that she will use automatically every few rounds, with no rest required. Almost every fight in the game is rendered trivial.
Jen’lig will leave you forever if you remove Sandrah from the party. They have no history together, it is simply that she will declare you an idiot and unworthy of following if you replace Sandrah with any other NPC, original or mod added.
Sandrah spoils the surprise of the Girdle of Gender, identifying it as soon as it is picked up, without needing to Identify it.
Neera fawns over her, of course, with never a hint of the irreverence she shows to everyone else. She is demanding with the PC and the rest of the characters, but submissive with Sandrah.
Sandrah knows about Branwen and her condition long before reaching Nashkel. She tells you to go free her, and threatens to petrify you if you refuse. All subsequent dialogue options oblige you to bow to her demand. You cannot refuse her, much less return her threat. Though there is no connection between them, she randomly saw Branwen in a magic crystal and correctly guesses that some “deranged misfit” might have started using her to make money. The fourth wall is left paper thin.
She negates the Marl encounter in Feldepost’s entirely, with a single line and a look that causes him to start trembling, stutter an apology and then run away. None of the other characters in the game can do this; the likes of Kagain or Minsc he will attack if not talked down in an eight branch dialogue tree. But one look from Sandrah sends him running.
After Sandrah takes a bath and cleans up in Feldepost’s, the narrative helpfully informs you that her beauty “nearly knocks you out”.
Garrick declares her the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. He is far from the only one to do so. If anything, it is rare for a character not to describe her thus, even while in the presence of Viconia, Jaheira, Branwen, Safana, a female PC with maxed out charisma, or any mod characters. Sandrah has only 15 charisma and her portraits show a rather plain looking blonde girl ... And even if that were not the case, tastes vary too much for it be plausible that everyone fancies her. And even if that were not the case, people simply do not go around speaking in such a fawningly purple manner.
Kagain hits on her. Yes, that Kagain. He even goes so far as to claim a right to sexual services, expressing a simplistic misogyny that is absent in all interactions with a female PC or other NPCs.
The mod NPC Finch fangirls over her, and gets lectured on the unimportance of books compared to practical knowledge. She accepts this without offering a counter-argument.
She interrupts the initial meeting with the mod NPC Gavin, who has lines inserted in which he fawns over her. Like most characters, he addresses her as “my lady”, which felt anachronistic to me given how rarely I see characters in these games use such titles, even when addressing nobles like Keldorn, Anomen, Valygar, Jaheira and so forth.
The famously grouchy Thalantyr is pleased to see her, and praises her beauty.
She interrupts the scene after Melicamp is cured. Once again there is an awkwardly long exchange inserted between one bit of canon dialogue and the response. This is done for no apparent reason, other than to establish that he is into her, too, and they used to date. She says nothing if he dies while Thalantyr is trying to cure him. Melicamp’s dialogue states that he only started experimenting with magic items because he was heartbroken that she left him, which makes no sense since he would have done that in an unmodded game anyway.
She gets involved in some rather oddly abrupt sexual encounters with various characters. She fucks Taerom within a minute of meeting him, while the rest of the party stands around waiting for her to be done, and exchanges two lines with Bjornin before fucking him, too.
There is no option for a female PC to refuse her advances when she comes into your room on resting. You can break up with her afterwards, but you cannot choose not to have sex with her. No allowance is made for a straight woman who does not want to have a lesbian affair, nor can a lesbian woman say that they just don’t fancy her. You will have sex with Sandrah whether you like it or not. I could swear there is a word for that ...
A male PC can refuse her advances, with the dialogue being to say that you are tired and want to sleep. Sandrah will remove herself from the party and the game entirely in response to being denied the dick. Which is better than forcing herself on you, at least.
On the other hand I have no idea why I would speak up for a mod who's author doesn't even bother to stick to their word and remove "crossmod" content which removal was requested in the original author's name long ago.
Hey, its not that bad.
Even if Sandrah's Sueness gets annoying after a while the satisfaction of being the one and only being on Faerun who would refuse to give her the dick leaving her traumatized and heartbroken is well worth it.
Gorion's Ward reclaims his plot relevance in his own story by breaking Sandrah's ego in the most painful way.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3955996&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=31
I've decided to just let her walk away in a pique, despite knowing that the famed metropolis of Waterdeep will now bar its gates to me since I am no longer in the good graces of the Sandrah. No amount of quest content and tome-selling stores could be worth putting up with this.
The term Mary Sue gets thrown around too casually these days, IMO, but Sandrah really is one, in the classical sense. A self-insert character who makes everything about her and twists the personalities of all around her such that they exist only to inflate her ego. Truly an awful mod. I feel like I would be being irresponsible not to post a warning for anyone who was tempted to play it due to the impressive scope, as I was. Don't do it. You'll regret it if you do.
Thanks for the warning! I was seriously considering playing Sandrah Saga since it has Waterdeep, but the mod seems to be all about the self-insert wannabe goddess character.