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If women are easily the counterparts etc., then where are they?

13

Comments

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,510
    Also, the priests don't control their deity so the will of the god plays a role too. Even the good deities wouldn't throw their gifts around Willy nilly. Or maybe the other gods just wouldn't let them...

    Zaghoul
  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 170
    edited June 2017
    Mirandel said:

    I have a strange feeling there are much more working women out there (of all colors and classes), more women-soldiers (of all colors and classes), more women in sports (of all kind) and constantly traveling women (gypsy, anyone?) than 30. Am I mistaken?

    You mean those working women who, if all their income is added up, earn 70 cents for every dollar working men earn when all their income is added up, and who do sports so badly that - well, let's just recount this hilarious story again?

    No one ever said women cannot work or do sports. But that in itself is not a proof of anything. Children work and play sports too - does that make them equal to adults?
    DrakeICN said:

    When did I say all women? When did anyone in this thread? Well, keep fighting the good fight then, I guess, Don Quixote.

    Then what was the point of your post? You simply wanted to point out that some women, somewhere do something that is out of their traditional gender role? Well... great, but I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, nor is it of any use in an argument about gender roles.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,070
    For what it's worth, D&D doesn't have gender-based bonuses or penalties to physical abilities. They used to be present in older editions, but they've since been removed.

    Sexual dimorphism is strictly cosmetic in D&D.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,510

    For what it's worth, D&D doesn't have gender-based bonuses or penalties to physical abilities. They used to be present in older editions, but they've since been removed.

    Sexual dimorphism is strictly cosmetic in D&D.

    If the books are any indication the women have all the right curves too. 18:00 strength AND looking good!

    semiticgodThacoBell
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    edited June 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    For what it's worth, D&D doesn't have gender-based bonuses or penalties to physical abilities. They used to be present in older editions, but they've since been removed.

    Sexual dimorphism is strictly cosmetic in D&D.

    If the books are any indication the women have all the right curves too. 18:00 strength AND looking good!
    Yeah the whole beautification in fantasy is something I would like to see more variation in, more world weariness.

    No way would most adventurers(men and women) look that good, being in that line of work. Unless they were household guards in some nobles mansion. I suppose you could say ''oh but magic'' to that as well, but then that starts becoming real convenient excuse.

    Balrog99ThacoBellsubtledoctor
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited June 2017

    DrakeICN said:

    When did I say all women? When did anyone in this thread? Well, keep fighting the good fight then, I guess, Don Quixote.

    Then what was the point of your post?
    You tell me, you guys / gals argument is all over the fucking place. First something about how including transgenders in the game is pushing political agendas, then something about how all women REALLY want to be house-wives, then something about how female soldiers are unrealistic and finally accusing all homosexuals of being pedophiles. I simply point out the weaknesses in your rants - but the end sum of it all, I could not fathom, due to the lack of coherence and conclusions.

    I'd hazard a guess though: you people advocate for everyone to stay in the box designed by your prejudices and assigned from birth by virtue of ones gender. Correct me if I am wrong.

    ThacoBellsubtledoctor
  • EmpyrialEmpyrial Member Posts: 107
    Interestingly enough, there was one book (I think it was in the Dragonlance universe but it could be FR) that did feature a female knight who straight up acknowledge she generally wouldn't be as physically strong as her male opponents and fought with more finesse. There were a few mentions of her taking care to not get caught in situations where it'd come down to a test of strength. She was still a strong and capable protagonist. There have been other books that featured tough-as-nails female combatants though because not every woman is willowy and slender. Now that I think about it, I've seen FR books featuring women in every playable class.

    As much as I hated R.A. Salvatore's Cadderly series, I did rather like Danica who was a monk. Very physically capable.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,310
    edited June 2017

    For what it's worth, D&D doesn't have gender-based bonuses or penalties to physical abilities. They used to be present in older editions, but they've since been removed.

    Sexual dimorphism is strictly cosmetic in D&D.

    To tell the truth, it always baffled me how AD&D second edition and beyond removed that part. Given that sexual dimorphism presenting their very own advantages and disadvantages is not a bad thing at all. For it allows more interesting character building and an additional layer to roleplaying.

    Other franchises have done this as well. And still do even to this day. The TES series being a prime example of how such game aspects get successfully embraced by players of all genders. Female Argonians being more gifted in the arts than in their male life phase? Fascinating! Male Golden Saints and Dark Seducers being extraordinary weaker than their female counterparts? Such is life, I guess. Still doesn't stop me from playing those "pushovers" in Oblivion. :smiley:

    Nevertheless, there are still many 'female only' prestige classes for D&D. Kind of strange however that I can't seem to recall even a single 'male only' prestige class. I am sure some do exist... somewhere, kind of. But no concrete names pop up in my nucleus.

    ZaghoulThacoBell
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    They ain't there, because someone would cry bad PR.

    Zaghoul
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited June 2017
    Ok guys, it's time to get serious because I know this is a major problem in most of your games. I have all the womenz in my game. Hey, they go where the fun is. So now you know where they be and can rest easy that all is fair in the world. Oh yeah, my game is strong as a result.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,510

    Ok guys, it's time to get serious because I know this is a major problem in most of your games. I have all the womenz in my game. Hey, they go where the fun is. So now you know where they be and can rest easy that all is fair in the world.

    Alrighty then. I'll keep that in mind...

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    Yeah it's crazy. In fact everyone asking for more of them are out of their heads. My game is so strong I can't beat it anymore... It's so hard I stopped using SCS.

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506
    edited June 2017

    Mirandel said:

    I have a strange feeling there are much more working women out there (of all colors and classes), more women-soldiers (of all colors and classes), more women in sports (of all kind) and constantly traveling women (gypsy, anyone?) than 30. Am I mistaken?

    You mean those working women who, if all their income is added up, earn 70 cents for every dollar working men earn when all their income is added up, and who do sports so badly that - well, let's just recount this hilarious story again?

    No one ever said women cannot work or do sports. But that in itself is not a proof of anything. Children work and play sports too - does that make them equal to adults?

    First of all, its far from "70 cents for every dollar" - 1%-4% still happen, yes, and fought against. But that's not the point. The point is - WHAT DOES IT HAS TO DO WITH OP?

    No, seriously, what salary rate for women or kids participation in sport activities has to do with the ability of women to become adventures?

    There are millions of modern women who are working, fighting at wars, keeping pure nomadic lifestyle - and all of this while having/raising babies. In Faerun they have magic on place of modern medicine/convenience and no social restrictions for women to become anyone they want. There is absolutely zero reason for women not to do what they want IF they want it. As easy as you can right now go and join the army or climb Everest if you choose so (!) so is any woman in FR can pick up a sword and begin her own adventure - if she wants to. Either activity will take some preparations - but so is anything in life.

    I do understand the idea "medieval - means women are staying home, anything else is historically incorrect" - I truly do. It still bugs me sometimes. But when it happen, I just remind myself, that FR - is like modern society but with magic on place of electronics. And as modern women can become anything they want (and they do) - so can women of FR.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    @Mirandel

    "There are millions of modern women who are working, fighting at wars, keeping pure nomadic lifestyle - and all of this while having/raising babies."

    And there are probably far more millions who want to do nothing of the sort and just want to have babies and sit at home. Men as well.

    So lets have that reflected a bit no?

    As I said earlier, effing boring for an adventure game.
    That's where the real fantasy cuts in, assuming everybody, men and women, rather than have a quiet life, want to kill dragons.

    It's fantasy, just let it be fantasy instead of this "oh look, it reflects something in the real world"

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506

    @Mirandel

    "There are millions of modern women who are working, fighting at wars, keeping pure nomadic lifestyle - and all of this while having/raising babies."

    And there are probably far more millions who want to do nothing of the sort and just want to have babies and sit at home. Men as well.

    So lets have that reflected a bit no?

    As I said earlier, effing boring for an adventure game.
    That's where the real fantasy cuts in, assuming everybody, men and women, rather than have a quiet life, want to kill dragons.

    It's fantasy, just let it be fantasy instead of this "oh look, it reflects something in the real world"

    Nobody argues with with that - "let fantasy be fantasy". What we are arguing about (and against) is the statement "real women are physically incapable to be adventures, so, when you play one - you are playing a boy in a skirt". This is simply not true. RL problems for women (and men) are solvable easy enough not to mention them, like never mentioned necessity of "bio-breaks" our Charnames and companions obviously have.

    And, btw, there are games about simple domestic life. And they are very popular - from simplest "happy farms" to Sims and simulators of any life style you can imagine. Even more funny - there are hybrids between "domestic" and "adventures" - like medieval Sims, for example. You can play anything you want!

    ThacoBellDrakeICNSkatan
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403
    Hmm if all these womenfolk are out fighting and going on adventures who's gonna make the sandwiches?

    Balrog99
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,717
    And the ones who made the most money from gold rush towns were the caterers ...

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,918
    So how many female named npcs of adventuring prowess are there in bg anyway?

    Not counting the joinables.
    Officer vai
    One of the Bentleys
    One of the granddukes
    Tamoko
    A female warrior party of four
    Neira
    A gnome at the coast
    Some at the top of the HQ in the city
    Silke
    Kristin
    Black lily
    Which other ambushes?
    ...

    I van recall more than I would have thought, but yes, it seems not that many. On the other hand, the developers did put women in most of the bigger associations (factions?) in the game, but often just one among men.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,717
    @Iroumen I think there are probably quite a few more than that. My memory is poor, but the following come quickly to mind:
    Sendai
    Tenya
    fortune-teller at the Lighthouse
    mage at the Lake area
    bard wanting stories about unicorns
    one of the mages feuding in Baldur's Gate

    there are others who may or may not be counted as having adventuring prowess, e.g. Samuel's girlfriend, woman with Kahrk's jar.

    lroumen
  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 170
    Mirandel said:

    There are millions of modern women who are working, fighting at wars, keeping pure nomadic lifestyle - and all of this while having/raising babies. In Faerun they have magic on place of modern medicine/convenience and no social restrictions for women to become anyone they want.

    If you see it as "Faerun said so, therefore that's how it is" then sure, knock yourself out. You can make any nonsensical setting you want. After all it's just someone's, pardon the pun, fantasy.

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,423
    Other female NPC adventurers in BG1:

    *Wudei (one of the Iron Throne loyalists in the Undercity)
    *Shaldrissa (another of the Iron Throne loyalists in the Undercity)
    *Cythandria
    *Laola Axehand (member of the Flaming Fist)
    *Kirian
    *Ithmeera
    *Delorna
    *Helshara
    *Centeol (if you charm her she says she used to be a powerful mage)
    *Hareishan
    *Natasha
    *Voltine (the druid who gives you the wand of polymorphing)
    *Desreta (the nihilist with the gauntlets of ogre power)
    *Vay-ya (Desreta's sister)
    *Laurel
    *Gerde (ankheg-killing ranger)
    *Unshey (she's a level 6 cleric)
    *Noralee
    *Wiven (a mage/thief who attacks you if you step into the wrong house)
    *Agnasia (level 9 priestess of Tymora)
    *Silence
    *Voleta Stiletto (woman at the entrance to the thief maze; from her dialogue I get the sense that she was an adventurer)
    *Kaishas Gan (does she count?)
    *Diana (red wizard)
    *Lasala (red wizard)
    *Dhanial (one of the people fleeing the Iron Throne in Chapter 7; she's a level 5 thief)
    *Brielbara (she's a level 6 mage)
    *Phlydia (she's a level 6 mage)
    *Alyth Elendara (she's a level 7 ranger)
    *Pheirkas
    *Clair De'Lain (the adventurer who you meet right before the Demonknight)
    *Tracea Carol (the cultist who summons Aec'Letec)
    *Islanne, maybe? The doppelgangers that mimic her do cast some powerful spells.
    *There's also an unused female ranger NPC in the game's files called Nim Furlwing.

    semiticgodThacoBellSkatan
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,070
    Plus, Caelar Argent and Melissan make up 2/5 of the villains in the BG saga, and both of them are melee bruisers.

    ThacoBellSkatan
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142

    Plus, Caelar Argent and Melissan make up 2/5 of the villains in the BG saga, and both of them are melee bruisers.

    Bodhi
    Sendai
    Illesera(sp) (the quick, that one)

    (oops better be careful though, otherwise BG will be accused of hating women and always making them badies)

    Silverstartbone1
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,031

    Plus, Caelar Argent and Melissan make up 2/5 of the villains in the BG saga, and both of them are melee bruisers.

    Bodhi
    Sendai
    Illesera(sp) (the quick, that one)

    (oops better be careful though, otherwise BG will be accused of hating women and always making them badies)
    I think the point semiticgod was making was that they were climax villains, both of which are the main obstacles for their respective games.

    Skatansemiticgod
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,951
    ThacoBell said:

    Plus, Caelar Argent and Melissan make up 2/5 of the villains in the BG saga, and both of them are melee bruisers.

    Bodhi
    Sendai
    Illesera(sp) (the quick, that one)

    (oops better be careful though, otherwise BG will be accused of hating women and always making them badies)
    I think the point semiticgod was making was that they were climax villains, both of which are the main obstacles for their respective games.
    And both are 'bruisers' rather than 'intellectual' classes.

    Regarding cool female characters; one thing that bugged me a bit (the good way) was how cool that half-dragon character in SoD was but how little I gopt to know about her and her dragon sibling. I wish she had been a harder foe though since she goes down way, way too easy, but it was so epic that they made those two; the dragon and the half-dragon, in the same dungeon.

    Grond0ThacoBell
This discussion has been closed.