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If women are easily the counterparts etc., then where are they?

chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
Let me start with an aside: I found this wonderful disclaimer in the AD&D 2nd edition Player's Handbook.

"A Note About Pronouns

The male pronoun (he, him, his) is used exclusively throughout the second edition of the AD&D game rules. We hope this won't be construed by anyone to be an attempt to exclude females from the game or imply their exclusion. Centuries of use have neutered the male pronoun. In written material it is clear, concise, and familiar. Nothing else is."

This is so elegant and yet firm, I think I'm going to include it with all my writing. But otherwise the COMPUTER adaptations of the AD&D game that we have here really don't have nearly as many women NPC as their political correctness hastens them to assure. The cast of party NPC in Baldur's Gate is balanced rather well, at least numerically. A few "strong females" like Shar-Teel and Dynaheir mesh with others who don't make a business of proclaiming themselves "strong." Outside, though, it's by and large a men's world. For many creatures only the male version is present at all, and women are very much a second sex.

Now it's true that even in the paper-and-pencil game monsters the party encounters are often male and that females and offspring are contained in the "Habitat/Society" section (in the style of "There will be 1d10 females, who fight as bugbears, and 1d6 children, who fight as goblins." What more is there to say?) The fantasy world has not yet been emancipated. The women mostly stay at home and the men mostly go out earning money. As inconsistent as fantasy settings are on many levels, they are at least traditional in this conservatism, and it keeps them coherent. So I'm not calling for a revolutionary sex-change for Eltan and Belt into Eltana and Beltie. In any event, you can't split Five Dukes half-way, even if you split some completely. But what I, for one, would like to see is modders making a point of creating female characters - not as an afterthought, but as a priority. If you are going to make a character, think first of making him a her. There are already lots of men to go around. With a woman, you are going to have to adjust the dynamics of your mod, consciously or not, because sex is more than cosmetics. And we need this refreshing change of angle. With a mod full of dudes, they will more likely than not end up doing the dude thing, which in the games comes down to being rude and killing things. Just look at Sarevok and his all-boys gang: Tazok, Angelo... Don't get me wrong: I appreciate the dude thing, but I've done quite enough of it to last me.

So let's be affirmative action about this and make some - no, lots - of women. More than half. If you only plan on making three NPC, make them all women. And not "amazons." Just women. Not all adventurers, either. Use the "Female commoner" avatar and the "Girl" avatar. Then see how different the mod comes out.

SkatanDJKajuruStummvonBordwehr
«134

Comments

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    The ultimate boss of the saga, the one who makes Sarevok, Irenicus and co. look pale is a woman. (If you ever make it to the Throne of Bhaal to challenge HER).
    Here is a snapshot of my current party - wish I could find at least one male to fit in there, otherwise I'll soon pick Dynaheir (without Minsc of course).

    (From top: PC; Sandrah, Jen'lig, Ajantis, Imoen, Viconia.)

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017
    Mirandel said:

    Hmmm... Out of 43 mods with additional NPC suggested by BWS (and not counting pairs like Kivan/Deheriana) - 22 are females of all kind of professions and classes. Looks like more than a half to me :) If anything, you can not blame modders for being not politically corrected.

    The thing that is really missing are interesting male NPCs to be romanceable by female protagonists.
    Ajantis? Anomen? Gavin?
    I' m not playing to get married to a paladin. Where is my fun while I'm on my way to become a goddess of the Realms? Edwin - at least he could wear my skirts while I use shorts during battle.
    Coran, oh yes, I don't believe a single word you tell me and I know you don't expect I do...but he only lasts for BG1 part, too bad.
    In the end I have to wait until I make it to Irenicus' dungeon...to meet Chloe (not a male name in any language) and have an interesting lover at last.

    Ravenslight
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,130
    As to the 'monster' mods, I've quite enjoyed @LavaDelVortel Verr'Sza rakshasa NPC, very interesting in and of himself and a different take on them in general I thought. Dudes a REAL wildcat, that's for darn sure. ;)B)

    A female gnoll would most definitely be interesting as mentioned( a flind even more so than the regular gnoll as they are the more charismatic of there brethren- WOOF WOOF! ;) )

    And dadburnit, still want ma wererat as well (or Skaven as @Kamigoroshi calls 'em).

    For that matter,I miss the old reincarnate spell, that led to some interesting play throughs in my PnP days, as I remember.

    @WarChiefZeke Ishlika female half orc NPC is definitely a nice change up from the game standard mass muderin' Dorn (plus she don't like him very much either). :)

    KamigoroshiRavenslightWarChiefZekeThacoBell
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506
    edited June 2017
    @PaulaMigrate Would not argue with that, thought have to ask if you tried all available male NPCs with romanses (there are sttraight and bi who are really good). As for me, Haer'dalis romance is the best ever written (mod, obviously), and since discovery of that mod I have no complains about that part of the game.

    But the question was - "why modders do not add women?". All I said is "they do and a lot of them".

    (And you lost me on Chloe: afaik, she is a female kensai NPC. Why did you mention her as a male option for straigh women?)

    @DrakeICN Brilliant analyses! Was a pleasure to simply read that article.

    Post edited by Mirandel on
    Ravenslight
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,951
    edited June 2017
    DrakeICN said:


    *** Which does not necessarily mean men are better soldiers, although it can be noted that RL elite squads are mostly, if not exclusively, male.

    Interesting post. Just one note to add though; one reason there aren't so many mixed groups of combatants is not only because there are no qualified women, it's because men in groups don't always work so well with women since men, being primitive apes, will eventually want to impress that woman/those women and may then lose part of his discipline. This is purely and only my own opinion, based on no facts other than my own observations both from military civic service (fireman), school/university and work environments.

    Edit: and just to make it clear, I am myself one of those primitive apes. I do not presume to set myself on high horses and know full-well my flaws, even as I continuously strive to excel above my primal urges.

    RavenslightMirandelBalrog99
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 1,852
    Ishlilka is female and of a class that most don't use but is usable, so there's at least one new girl in the roster.

    Although I still have to get BG2 finished.

  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 170
    This thread is a time bomb, isn't it?

    ArtonaGallowglassRaduziel
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201

    This thread is a time bomb, isn't it?

    It is not. It is just showing how much MODS add to the game already and how much more potential there still is left. @LavaDelVortel sums it up pretty well in his post above. He added a joinable mindflayer to the game who (unexpectently) gave completely baffling insights into -not only his race- but also the human race. My current party has a githyanki female NPC from another mod with very refreshing views on the *concepts* of the Prime.
    It's not freaking politics or quota or time bombs, it's just fun.

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    O_Bruce said:

    Can't anyone enjoy anything without freaking politics anymore?

    Using entertainment as a media for illuminating social or philosophical issues!!???

    Unheard of! HERESY!!!

    semiticgodBalrog99
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761
    edited June 2017

    It's not freaking politics or quota or time bombs, it's just fun.

    It would be about fun if people forcused on creating good content, not on the race/gender checkbox. I'm not saying that making differnet mods introducting very diverse cast of characters is bad in itself, but if the author's focus is on the checkbox instead of good writing, things will turn out poorly.
    DrakeICN said:

    <
    Using entertainment as a media for illuminating social or philosophical issues!!???

    Unheard of! HERESY!!!

    Weak attempt at sarcasm for someone who doesn't even understand my position. I believe you can do great commentary without following the "social justice" checkbox.

    ThacoBellSilverstarsemiticgodAndreaColombo
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    What good would affirmative action like that do?

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited June 2017
    O_Bruce said:

    Weak attempt at sarcasm for someone who doesn't even understand my position. I believe you can do great commentary without following the "social justice" checkbox.

    Oh, I see, because the BG series ONLy deals with this issue, and...

    Oh shit, wait, no it doesn't! It raises all manner of social and philosophical issues, and those you have no problem with.

    No, your problem is specifically that these issues are raised at all. They should not be discussed ever, because this automatically lodges a game into the social justice bin, and must be shunned for ever more.

    However, to give you the benefit of doubt, would you be okay with the realms being as diverse as the real world, (or indeed it would get one-sided in favor of social justice). So, for every bisexual character added, also throw in a blatant homophobe. Would you then be happy with this social issue being included?

    If you answer no to that, I believe it is very clear from where you are coming, so get off your high horse...

    @UnderstandMouseMagic - Joan D'Arc was not a real woman? i mean, yeah, you would not bring about a pregnant lady on a campaign (except that you do, Aeries) but it all comes down to life-choices. And mercenaries tend to hang with other mercenaries instead of attending the local coffee, knitting and gossip parties. There are lots of housewives etc in the game, but they are all backdrop characters... what gives, I wonder..?

    In all fairness, the lives of local scribes, merchants, cooks and other male non-mercenaries are also given the same harsh backdrop treatment as house-wives are, so there is no gender inequality here either.

  • RavenslightRavenslight Member Posts: 1,610
    I would much prefer modders introduce characters because they were inspired to do so. If they are excited by a character concept, would like that type of character in their own game, they are more likely to create a character that I might find interesting. Even if that character isn’t the type that I personally would normally like. Chances are their own enthusiasm and dedication to the character will come through, making them at least somewhat interesting.

    I like getting immersed in a game world that is not the same as my real life world. Certainly, I like diversity represented in the game world, but too much emphasis on political correctness, sex and race equality etc., just ends up watering down role-play. In my opinion.

    ArtonaPaulaMigrateThacoBellSilverstar
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506
    edited June 2017


    You don't want more females in games, litrature, TV, anything.
    What you want is females who put a huge part of being a woman to one side and play with the boys.

    Who are from a narrow age range because guess what, being female does actually take it's toll, (although we hang on longer at the end). Who never are unreasonable/incapacitated/incapable because of menstruation (and women are frquently), who will always be able to pick up a sword, are as strong as the males (which women aren't), who never feel different than any of the males physically or emotionally so they fit into the group.

    Basically a woman with none of the drawbacks of being a woman in a demanding, physical enviroment.

    Just a small note - I know you did not mean it at all, but it does sound like in medieval (and not only, of course) age someone actually did give a damn about women's mood or health. Actually, nobody did give a damn about men's mood or health either, but the point is - all these stuff you mentioned did not freed a single woman out of hard labor at the house or in the fields. Women worked a lot regardless of their conditions: they had to cook, no matter how much they throw up because of morning sickness, they had to feed livestock and work in the fields regardless of need for breastfeeding or even giving birth (don't tell me you are unfamiliar with an idea "make a break for a labor and then go back to work").

    Hard physical work was always there for women, actually, "adventuring" would be a simple trade off some safety for less work - that's all. And the reasons not many women did that are mostly social, as @DrakeICN perfectly summed up.

    Post edited by Mirandel on
    Raduziel
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    @DrakeICN

    " Joan D'Arc was not a real woman? i mean, yeah, you would not bring about a pregnant lady on a campaign (except that you do, Aeries) but it all comes down to life-choices. And mercenaries tend to hang with other mercenaries instead of attending the local coffee, knitting and gossip parties. There are lots of housewives etc in the game, but they are all backdrop characters... what gives, I wonder..?"

    And here is an example of modern feminism. Disparage and mock the pursuits that the majority of women want to do. Of course they are worthless because otherwise men would be doing them.

    Life choices bollox.

    Do you really think thousands and thousands of years ago when survival was harsh, cavepeople sat around thinking, "I know lets demarcate the gender roles because having only half the tribe being able to hunt on any particular day is an advantage"

    Rather than, "oh bugger, we keep on insisting women come on all the hunts because equality, but we keep losing one or two and the children they are carrying (inside or outside) as they collapse, but lets carry on, can't be seen to be sexist"

    Well, to be fair, there may well have been some proto 'gender equality at all cost' tribes, but none of them made it. :D

    ThacoBellAndreaColombo
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    @DrakeICN

    And the two examples you give.

    Joan of Arc, well she was French for a start off and a traitor so lets not go there.

    And Aerie, it would have been far better if you wanted to portray "woman in the FR" as a reflection of RL, to actually have her suffering a miscarriage and bleeding out because of the life she was leading at that point. Or to have her dying in childbirth.
    That's reality.
    That's the reality of women's lives for almost the entirity of history before modern medicine, and still a reality now in a lot of cases.
    This insiduous idea that you can just shrug off pregnancy because it doesn't suit the narrative of "gender equality".

    Women, when will they learn?
    Throw off the shackles and immediately put on another set that makes them pretend they are no different from men.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,918
    It is weird because in many animals it is the women that teach hunting tactics to the young and not the men. For instance, lionesses hunt more and more efficiently than lions. Orcas hunt with their moms.

    I'm thinking that humans are just stupid. In history there have been notable women but really, they are too sparse.

    In the game I feel that there are quite a lot of women adventurers, though maybe my counting is off... Note that most bg1 npcs (including men) are pure stereotypes. I am not sure how serious you need to take that game. Bg2 is less stereotype in that regard and I find the women quite well written and represented. I'm more disappointed in some male npcs...

    Mods.... I rarely play them.

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017

    I would much prefer modders introduce characters because they were inspired to do so. If they are excited by a character concept, would like that type of character in their own game, they are more likely to create a character that I might find interesting. Even if that character isn’t the type that I personally would normally like. Chances are their own enthusiasm and dedication to the character will come through, making them at least somewhat interesting.

    I like getting immersed in a game world that is not the same as my real life world. Certainly, I like diversity represented in the game world, but too much emphasis on political correctness, sex and race equality etc., just ends up watering down role-play. In my opinion.

    I fully agree. I played some of the weirdest characters but I felt they were made with real dedication, e.g. seeing the (Faerun) world through the eyes of a creature from another plane. And I played NPCs that were created for the sake of showing *something different than anything else just for the balance* and they felt like that - artificial creations to bring some *message* but were not personalities (in a gamewise way).

    Nephele NPC is a good example, a nice story well written, much detail and love that comes across when you play her. All of that in a character that appears like nothing special at first glance but grows if you get to know her. (by the way a woman, even a grandmother, trying a bit of adventuring because she does not feel old enough to retire). On the other hand Dorn, obviously created in some laboratory by a team of scientists trying to mix several ingrediences they thought were missing in the game. Result is an artificial character without personality in a flat plot. Even his creators did not seem to like him, just felt obliged to add *somebody real evil with a new kit* to the game.

    RavenslightThacoBellSilverstar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    lroumen said:

    It is weird because in many animals it is the women that teach hunting tactics to the young and not the men. For instance, lionesses hunt more and more efficiently than lions. Orcas hunt with their moms.

    I'm thinking that humans are just stupid. In history there have been notable women but really, they are too sparse.

    In the game I feel that there are quite a lot of women adventurers, though maybe my counting is off... Note that most bg1 npcs (including men) are pure stereotypes. I am not sure how serious you need to take that game. Bg2 is less stereotype in that regard and I find the women quite well written and represented. I'm more disappointed in some male npcs...

    Mods.... I rarely play them.

    No, human babies live a long time in the womb for their brains to develop.
    Not such a bad trade off when you consider that humans have the internet and lions have.........what?

    And it's women who bear the cost of that trade off.
    Stop diminishing human women.

    Silverstar
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,706
    Ok, I think it's time to remind everyone that in discussions about subjects so subtle as this one the risks of pushing too much in your comments is quite high. Don't do that, please, as it might lead to being disrespectful to other participants of the discussion.

    semiticgodAndreaColombomlnevese
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited June 2017
    Ok, look, I mean no disrespect to women who commit to their family. It is a life choice I do not understand - dont you eventually got bored out of your skull and feel imprisoned, regardless of how happy you were with this constellation the first five years? But, yeah, my grand mother commited to her family and because of this my grand father and their children had very succesful careers. On the other hand, her mother was a succesful author and she herself dropped out of university for her family - how high were her chances of becoming an author herself? I would say, those were the times. Certainly, a lot of women want to be housewives, and yes, some members of the new wave of feminism show little tolerance for this life choice. But that a majority of women would want this!!?

    I think, mayhaps, you surround yourself with likeminded, for I rarely encounter women with an express wish to become housewives. To the contrary, I feel women of today want to see the world, settle for a bit, and then resume their careers.

    Edit: And perhaps women hunting is not a maximal human resource allocation for cavemen... but we dont live in caves anymore, so this is a non-issue.

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761
    DrakeICN said:


    Oh, I see, because the BG series ONLy deals with this issue, and...

    Oh shit, wait, no it doesn't! It raises all manner of social and philosophical issues, and those you have no problem with.

    No, your problem is specifically that these issues are raised at all. They should not be discussed ever, because this automatically lodges a game into the social justice bin, and must be shunned for ever more.

    However, to give you the benefit of doubt, would you be okay with the realms being as diverse as the real world, (or indeed it would get one-sided in favor of social justice). So, for every bisexual character added, also throw in a blatant homophobe. Would you then be happy with this social issue being included?

    If you answer no to that, I believe it is very clear from where you are coming, so get off your high horse...

    @UnderstandMouseMagic - Joan D'Arc was not a real woman? i mean, yeah, you would not bring about a pregnant lady on a campaign (except that you do, Aeries) but it all comes down to life-choices. And mercenaries tend to hang with other mercenaries instead of attending the local coffee, knitting and gossip parties. There are lots of housewives etc in the game, but they are all backdrop characters... what gives, I wonder..?

    In all fairness, the lives of local scribes, merchants, cooks and other male non-mercenaries are also given the same harsh backdrop treatment as house-wives are, so there is no gender inequality here either.

    I'm not going to dicourage you from sarcasm this time. You need practice, after all.

    First of all, I don't ever mention this being only for BG. Second, you don't understand where I come from and for yor own image I advise you to ackowledge that fact. For another time, I explain to you that raising up the questions or problems is not the issue here. The issue is the intention and the way you go about it. The good way of thinking for writer to have is: "I want to create a good character/story. Oh, by the way, I might consider making a character this or that if it fits the story. Or even better, if it actually improves the story". The second, bad way, is: "I want to make the character this and that because I feel like filling social justice check box: trans character: check. homsexual: check. disabled character: check." See the difference in approach?

    About the "proportions" question you "propose", I must dissapoint you. I'm not going to give you answer you want. I'll say this instead: I don't care about proportions at all. I don't need to feel "represented" in media, so I don't care what % of people are represented. This is because I do care about good story, likeable characters and so on. But if you include the character or plotline that's not really integrated into the story for the sake of earlier mentioned checkbox, instead of quality writing you'll have something that stands out in a really bad way. Worst of all, by doing this you are catering to people who either doesn't give a damn about it or won't be greateful anyway.

    Also, I don't need to be "represented" to like or relate to character in fiction.

    I'll get to the "homosexual" and "blatant homophobe" characters you mentioned. Good way of implementing these is to give them depth, character development and involve them in the story. And resolved their conflict, giving multiple choices if the medium is in videogame. The bad was is just throwing them there and leave them with their only notable characteristic being their sexual orientation and bigotry, while clearly suggesting the viewer/reader/player how exactly he/she should feel about it.

    If you still don't get what I'm talking about, I give up. Spending my time here anymore will be pointless.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,918
    edited June 2017

    lroumen said:

    It is weird because in many animals it is the women that teach hunting tactics to the young and not the men. For instance, lionesses hunt more and more efficiently than lions. Orcas hunt with their moms.

    I'm thinking that humans are just stupid. In history there have been notable women but really, they are too sparse.

    In the game I feel that there are quite a lot of women adventurers, though maybe my counting is off... Note that most bg1 npcs (including men) are pure stereotypes. I am not sure how serious you need to take that game. Bg2 is less stereotype in that regard and I find the women quite well written and represented. I'm more disappointed in some male npcs...

    Mods.... I rarely play them.

    No, human babies live a long time in the womb for their brains to develop.
    Not such a bad trade off when you consider that humans have the internet and lions have.........what?

    And it's women who bear the cost of that trade off.
    Stop diminishing human women.

    not sure how I accomplished that by making remarks about the society and not women in particular, but sincere apologies if that is how you read it. Definitely not my intention, I just found the difference with animals striking to the development of human society.

    I feel that animals are better off by not having Internet.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,309
    edited June 2017
    Triggers, triggers never change...


    ( Absolutely not influenced by GOG's current 50% sale of Fallout 3 GotY, Fallout New Vegas Ultimate Edition and Oblivion GotY. I swear :no_mouth: )

    ThacoBellSethDavisSkatanRaduziel
This discussion has been closed.