With a mod full of dudes, they will more likely than not end up doing the dude thing, which in the games comes down to being rude and killing things. Just look at Sarevok and his all-boys gang: Tazok, Angelo... Don't get me wrong: I appreciate the dude thing, but I've done quite enough of it to last me.
Men being assholes sounds like a great reason to make mods that depicts them as not being just that tbh...
And since I don't really play a lot of mods I can't comment on the respective gender representations, but
Hmmm... Out of 43 mods with additional NPC suggested by BWS (and not counting pairs like Kivan/Deheriana) - 22 are females of all kind of professions and classes.
makes it sound like modders are already on top of things.
Historically, having a lot of women fighting in wars and slaying wooly mammoths wouldn't make sense. But D&D is not history; it's fantasy. It can afford to be different from our world, or even unrealistic. A lot of folks just like seeing women in non-traditional roles, so writers create those characters.
Likewise, plenty of people like seeing stories that reflect our own history. I'm a feminist but I liked seeing the full-blown patriarchal world in Downton Abbey because it was interesting and foreign. It introduced some conflict into the show when people had to deal with values that people these days would find alien and backward. Yet I also like the relatively liberated environment in D&D, in which women can be anything.
I don't usually care much for art that's designed to make a moral stand, but plenty of people do.
Like any other form of art, games don't have to be one way or the other. It just depends on what kind of story the audience wants.
You don't want more females in games, litrature, TV, anything. What you want is females who put a huge part of being a woman to one side and play with the boys.
Who are from a narrow age range because guess what, being female does actually take it's toll, (although we hang on longer at the end). Who never are unreasonable/incapacitated/incapable because of menstruation (and women are frquently), who will always be able to pick up a sword, are as strong as the males (which women aren't), who never feel different than any of the males physically or emotionally so they fit into the group.
Basically a woman with none of the drawbacks of being a woman in a demanding, physical enviroment.
Just a small note - I know you did not mean it at all, but it does sound like in medieval (and not only, of course) age someone actually did give a damn about women's mood or health. Actually, nobody did give a damn about men's mood or health either, but the point is - all these stuff you mentioned did not freed a single woman out of hard labor at the house or in the fields. Women worked a lot regardless of their conditions: they had to cook, no matter how much they throw up because of morning sickness, they had to feed livestock and work in the fields regardless of need for breastfeeding or even giving birth (don't tell me you are unfamiliar with an idea "make a break for a labor and then go back to work").
Hard physical work was always there for women, actually, "adventuring" would be a simple trade off some safety for less work - that's all. And the reasons not many women did that are mostly social, as @DrakeICN perfectly summed up.
Missed this post.
Yes, women always had to do hard work, but who saw this as an ideal? If it were considered an "ideal" then the moment one's social standing (usually money) increased, the work wouldn't have been given up and passed onto somebody else to do.
So not sure what your point is, women have had to work very hard when a society is poor so lets keep them at it?
And people did and have always given a damn about their health and wellbeing otherwise there would have been no progress. The fact that modern medicine has caused such a huge leap in health outcomes doesn't negate all the smaller outcomes that occured previously.
And "adventuring" which is a fantasy occupation anyway, if considered realistically would never be seen as involving less work. Long marches carrying heavy equipment, life threatening incident, long marches carrying heavy equipment.
The only equivalent I could think of is an army with camp followers. And how many over the years have died on them?
Historically, having a lot of women fighting in wars and slaying wooly mammoths wouldn't make sense. But D&D is not history; it's fantasy. It can afford to be different from our world, or even unrealistic. A lot of folks just like seeing women in non-traditional roles, so writers create those characters.
Likewise, plenty of people like seeing stories that reflect our own history. I'm a feminist but I liked seeing the full-blown patriarchal world in Downton Abbey because it was interesting and foreign. It introduced some conflict into the show when people had to deal with values that people these days would find alien and backward. Yet I also like the relatively liberated environment in D&D, in which women can be anything.
I don't usually care much for art that's designed to make a moral stand, but plenty of people do.
Like any other form of art, games don't have to be one way or the other. It just depends on what kind of story the audience wants.
Well said, it's fantasy. And good luck to anybody making a mod or character that they are invested in.
The problem as I see it, and have tried to illustrate, is that those who want to bring the "real world" into it never really want to reflect the "real world". They just want to have a go at something or the other. Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.
They just want to have a go at something or the other. Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.
Yet that, too, is just another example of what somebody wants out of a story. Personally, I don't get a kick out of seeing somebody "smash the patriarchy" in fiction.
But I do get a kick out of seeing Captain America punch Nazis. Honestly, the desire is coming from the same part of our brains.
We just like to see the bad guys lose and the good guys win. The only difference is which we think is which.
Having written fantastical worlds in pseudo-medieval settings, I've actually thought a lot about the difficulties of childbirth and pregnancy for women in that world. And you know the one thing that the Forgotten Realms has that our own world doesn't?
Magic.
More specifically, healing magic.
You can't compare pregnancy and childbirth between the real world and a fantasy one where healing magic exists. What injuries would normally take weeks, even months to fully heal in the real world would instead be patched up in minutes. There is zero reason why a Cure Serious Wounds spell couldn't be used on a new mother suffering broken hips and massive bleeding, the same way it would be used on a male adventurer with a broken arm and massive bleeding.
The difficulty is finding a priest or cleric who can cast the spell at a reasonable cost, and a lot of the peasant housewives we see around Baldur's Gate probably wouldn't be able to afford it. But noblewomen? Successful adventurers? Their odds at surviving and recovering from childbirth would be much higher, because they'd have the money to spare.
I'm personally not a fan of Aerie's Throne of Bhaal romance, but considering that she is a cleric herself, I'm sure she had ways to minimize any damage done to her baby throughout the adventure. Pregnant women can actually be more formidable in a fight, because then she isn't just fighting for herself, but for the life inside her too. Higher stakes means she's less likely to hold back. Combat would obviously become more difficult further along in the pregnancy, but in those earlier months, I wouldn't count her out of anything.
Standard disclaimer: I'm not a mother. I've never been pregnant, and I'd like to keep it that way for a long while yet. I've read and heard plenty of horror stories about the process, enough that I don't know if I even want to have my own children. I don't say any of this to diminish the very real, very intense, and oftentimes dangerous reality of giving birth. But pregnancy is different for everyone, and what might be Hell for one mother could be a breeze for another. It's not fair to paint every woman's individual experience with the same stroke, and then apply that stroke to a fantasy world where childbirth is actually a lot less dangerous than it is even today in our world.
***
And while we're on the topic of adventuring mothers, I'd like to offer one prime, infamous example from the books of American history:
Sacagawea.
A Shoshone woman who was married to French explorer at thirteen years old, Sacagawea joined the Corps of Discovery in late 1804 and gave birth to her son a few months later. From that point on, Sacagawea journeyed with the Corps of Discovery--surviving over mountains, rivers, skirmishes with hostile tribes, starvation, frostbite, and gods know what else--while carrying her newborn on her back. You really can't get a more badass example of motherhood right there.
Now to be fair, she had the baby before they began traveling, and she had two months to recover before they departed. Still, not bad for a thirteen-year-old, eh?
Having written fantastical worlds in pseudo-medieval settings, I've actually thought a lot about the difficulties of childbirth and pregnancy for women in that world. And you know the one thing that the Forgotten Realms has that our own world doesn't?
Magic.
More specifically, healing magic.
You can't compare pregnancy and childbirth between the real world and a fantasy one where healing magic exists. What injuries would normally take weeks, even months to fully heal in the real world would instead be patched up in minutes. There is zero reason why a Cure Serious Wounds spell couldn't be used on a new mother suffering broken hips and massive bleeding, the same way it would be used on a male adventurer with a broken arm and massive bleeding.
The difficulty is finding a priest or cleric who can cast the spell at a reasonable cost, and a lot of the peasant housewives we see around Baldur's Gate probably wouldn't be able to afford it. But noblewomen? Successful adventurers? Their odds at surviving and recovering from childbirth would be much higher, because they'd have the money to spare.
I... think we have the answer here.
The one big reason why folks in the modern world are moving away from traditional gender roles is because birth control, modern medicine, and new methods of preventing as well as treating (and sometimes even curing) STIs rendered a lot of our old gender roles obsolete. Society is still adjusting to the new reality, so we've got a mix of old ideas and new ones.
D&D magic can do a lot of the same things as modern technology. It only makes sense that both modern and premodern ideas exist in Faerun.
Having written fantastical worlds in pseudo-medieval settings, I've actually thought a lot about the difficulties of childbirth and pregnancy for women in that world. And you know the one thing that the Forgotten Realms has that our own world doesn't?
Magic.
More specifically, healing magic.
We'd also have to introduce the fact that FR gods are REAL and take active roles in the FR world, and faith is not, just, well, blind faith, and prayer is actually asking for visible, personal divine intervention.
Magic however is not onmipotent in Faerun. Or within D&D in general. The plague of NwN being an excellent example of how healing magic can turn out to be completely powerless agains ailments.
Not to mention that being exposed to any kind of magic can actually do a lot of harm. For example: Resurrecting pregnant women can sometimes even cause the unborn child to become undead (or rather, semi-undead) just like dhampirs. Although I am not sure whenever I read this in the Ravenloft setting or an Dragon# issue. Ah, well. Still makes for an interesting background story either way. Another example would be the magical corruption of the Dark Sun setting. Bit like the Spellplague, but so much more interesting. Especially since arcane magic uses lifeforce as fuel.
The problem as I see it, and have tried to illustrate, is that those who want to bring the "real world" into it never really want to reflect the "real world". They just want to have a go at something or the other. Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.
I think the problem with the, uh, "white male patriarchy" and other conservatives such as Saudi Arabia is that they are actually disconnected with the real world, instead living in the Lala-land where all women are weak and global warming isn't real and the 2008 financial crisis was not caused by deregulation but instead over-taxation and whatever else bull they are pushing at the moment.
You don't want more females in games, litrature, TV, anything. What you want is females who put a huge part of being a woman to one side and play with the boys.
Who are from a narrow age range because guess what, being female does actually take it's toll, (although we hang on longer at the end). Who never are unreasonable/incapacitated/incapable because of menstruation (and women are frquently), who will always be able to pick up a sword, are as strong as the males (which women aren't), who never feel different than any of the males physically or emotionally so they fit into the group.
Basically a woman with none of the drawbacks of being a woman in a demanding, physical enviroment.
Just a small note - I know you did not mean it at all, but it does sound like in medieval (and not only, of course) age someone actually did give a damn about women's mood or health. Actually, nobody did give a damn about men's mood or health either, but the point is - all these stuff you mentioned did not freed a single woman out of hard labor at the house or in the fields. Women worked a lot regardless of their conditions: they had to cook, no matter how much they throw up because of morning sickness, they had to feed livestock and work in the fields regardless of need for breastfeeding or even giving birth (don't tell me you are unfamiliar with an idea "make a break for a labor and then go back to work").
Hard physical work was always there for women, actually, "adventuring" would be a simple trade off some safety for less work - that's all. And the reasons not many women did that are mostly social, as @DrakeICN perfectly summed up.
Missed this post.
Yes, women always had to do hard work, but who saw this as an ideal? If it were considered an "ideal" then the moment one's social standing (usually money) increased, the work wouldn't have been given up and passed onto somebody else to do.
So not sure what your point is, women have had to work very hard when a society is poor so lets keep them at it?
And people did and have always given a damn about their health and wellbeing otherwise there would have been no progress. The fact that modern medicine has caused such a huge leap in health outcomes doesn't negate all the smaller outcomes that occured previously.
And "adventuring" which is a fantasy occupation anyway, if considered realistically would never be seen as involving less work. Long marches carrying heavy equipment, life threatening incident, long marches carrying heavy equipment.
The only equivalent I could think of is an army with camp followers. And how many over the years have died on them?
Wait, where did you see anything about "ideal" in my post or suggestion tot keep women on hard labor?!
My point was, "adventuring is not any harder than every day work women had to do no matter what", even easier, considering it is not an army and women could adventure at their own pace, not obligated to do anything they did not want to do.
@Nonnahswriter gave you another excellent reason why things like pregnancy or periods would not be such a burden in Faerun.
So, sorry, but when someone wants to see more women in fantasy world, that person wants really to see a normal women not chained to the kitchen by traditions and society needs. Nothing on women physiology prevents them from having life they desire.
No mentioning of Pope Joan? Moving aside the fact whenever she really existed or not. The story of this female pope is pretty legendary over here in Europe.
Shoot, I just enjoyed it more whenever we got the chance to play PnP with women among the players, and that seems like it was rare looking back now. I liked the change of perspective. and it was refreshing. It was hard enough though being shy, just to get anybody other than family and immediate friends in a small country town.
The problem as I see it, and have tried to illustrate, is that those who want to bring the "real world" into it never really want to reflect the "real world". They just want to have a go at something or the other. Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.
I think the problem with the, uh, "white male patriarchy" and other conservatives such as Saudi Arabia is that they are actually disconnected with the real world, instead living in the Lala-land where all women are weak and global warming isn't real and the 2008 financial crisis was not caused by deregulation but instead over-taxation and whatever else bull they are pushing at the moment.
I think it interesting how ISIS folks are worried about being shot by female soldiers. No 72 virgins in heaven and they have to return 'To GO" without $200.
Though, please to be noted, there is a serial murderer kiling children in BG that helps you jailbreak, so if you are trying to say darker aspect of mankind should be portrayed, they already are. If you are trying to say anything else, please explain.
If 30 female soldiers is enough to prove that all women are just as strong/tough/etc. as men, then 1000 NAMBLA members is enough to prove that all men are homosexual pedophiles.
If 30 female soldiers is enough to prove that all women are just as strong/tough/etc. as men, then 1000 NAMBLA members is enough to prove that all men are homosexual pedophiles.
I have a strange feeling there are much more working women out there (of all colors and classes), more women-soldiers (of all colors and classes), more women in sports (of all kind) and constantly traveling women (gypsy, anyone?) than 30. Am I mistaken?
Attention, please. Only moderators can decide who is a troll and who is not a troll. If you think someone has violated the Site rules, then report it. If you start calling other users trolls you're acting disrespectfully to those users. Meanwhile, everyone in this thread should take a deep breath before continuing.
If 30 female soldiers is enough to prove that all women are just as strong/tough/etc. as men, then 1000 NAMBLA members is enough to prove that all men are homosexual pedophiles.
When did I say all women? When did anyone in this thread? Well, keep fighting the good fight then, I guess, Don Quixote.
Comments
And since I don't really play a lot of mods I can't comment on the respective gender representations, but makes it sound like modders are already on top of things.
Likewise, plenty of people like seeing stories that reflect our own history. I'm a feminist but I liked seeing the full-blown patriarchal world in Downton Abbey because it was interesting and foreign. It introduced some conflict into the show when people had to deal with values that people these days would find alien and backward. Yet I also like the relatively liberated environment in D&D, in which women can be anything.
I don't usually care much for art that's designed to make a moral stand, but plenty of people do.
Like any other form of art, games don't have to be one way or the other. It just depends on what kind of story the audience wants.
Yes, women always had to do hard work, but who saw this as an ideal?
If it were considered an "ideal" then the moment one's social standing (usually money) increased, the work wouldn't have been given up and passed onto somebody else to do.
So not sure what your point is, women have had to work very hard when a society is poor so lets keep them at it?
And people did and have always given a damn about their health and wellbeing otherwise there would have been no progress.
The fact that modern medicine has caused such a huge leap in health outcomes doesn't negate all the smaller outcomes that occured previously.
And "adventuring" which is a fantasy occupation anyway, if considered realistically would never be seen as involving less work.
Long marches carrying heavy equipment, life threatening incident, long marches carrying heavy equipment.
The only equivalent I could think of is an army with camp followers.
And how many over the years have died on them?
The problem as I see it, and have tried to illustrate, is that those who want to bring the "real world" into it never really want to reflect the "real world".
They just want to have a go at something or the other.
Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.
But I do get a kick out of seeing Captain America punch Nazis. Honestly, the desire is coming from the same part of our brains.
We just like to see the bad guys lose and the good guys win. The only difference is which we think is which.
Magic.
More specifically, healing magic.
You can't compare pregnancy and childbirth between the real world and a fantasy one where healing magic exists. What injuries would normally take weeks, even months to fully heal in the real world would instead be patched up in minutes. There is zero reason why a Cure Serious Wounds spell couldn't be used on a new mother suffering broken hips and massive bleeding, the same way it would be used on a male adventurer with a broken arm and massive bleeding.
The difficulty is finding a priest or cleric who can cast the spell at a reasonable cost, and a lot of the peasant housewives we see around Baldur's Gate probably wouldn't be able to afford it. But noblewomen? Successful adventurers? Their odds at surviving and recovering from childbirth would be much higher, because they'd have the money to spare.
I'm personally not a fan of Aerie's Throne of Bhaal romance, but considering that she is a cleric herself, I'm sure she had ways to minimize any damage done to her baby throughout the adventure. Pregnant women can actually be more formidable in a fight, because then she isn't just fighting for herself, but for the life inside her too. Higher stakes means she's less likely to hold back. Combat would obviously become more difficult further along in the pregnancy, but in those earlier months, I wouldn't count her out of anything.
Standard disclaimer: I'm not a mother. I've never been pregnant, and I'd like to keep it that way for a long while yet. I've read and heard plenty of horror stories about the process, enough that I don't know if I even want to have my own children. I don't say any of this to diminish the very real, very intense, and oftentimes dangerous reality of giving birth. But pregnancy is different for everyone, and what might be Hell for one mother could be a breeze for another. It's not fair to paint every woman's individual experience with the same stroke, and then apply that stroke to a fantasy world where childbirth is actually a lot less dangerous than it is even today in our world.
***
And while we're on the topic of adventuring mothers, I'd like to offer one prime, infamous example from the books of American history:
Sacagawea.
A Shoshone woman who was married to French explorer at thirteen years old, Sacagawea joined the Corps of Discovery in late 1804 and gave birth to her son a few months later. From that point on, Sacagawea journeyed with the Corps of Discovery--surviving over mountains, rivers, skirmishes with hostile tribes, starvation, frostbite, and gods know what else--while carrying her newborn on her back. You really can't get a more badass example of motherhood right there.
Now to be fair, she had the baby before they began traveling, and she had two months to recover before they departed. Still, not bad for a thirteen-year-old, eh?
*quickly hides his big Hail Hydra flag*
The one big reason why folks in the modern world are moving away from traditional gender roles is because birth control, modern medicine, and new methods of preventing as well as treating (and sometimes even curing) STIs rendered a lot of our old gender roles obsolete. Society is still adjusting to the new reality, so we've got a mix of old ideas and new ones.
D&D magic can do a lot of the same things as modern technology. It only makes sense that both modern and premodern ideas exist in Faerun.
Not to mention that being exposed to any kind of magic can actually do a lot of harm. For example: Resurrecting pregnant women can sometimes even cause the unborn child to become undead (or rather, semi-undead) just like dhampirs. Although I am not sure whenever I read this in the Ravenloft setting or an Dragon# issue. Ah, well. Still makes for an interesting background story either way.
Another example would be the magical corruption of the Dark Sun setting. Bit like the Spellplague, but so much more interesting. Especially since arcane magic uses lifeforce as fuel.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/all-female-peshmerga-unit-fighting-isis_us_5729fd3de4b0bc9cb04530eb
I think the problem with the, uh, "white male patriarchy" and other conservatives such as Saudi Arabia is that they are actually disconnected with the real world, instead living in the Lala-land where all women are weak and global warming isn't real and the 2008 financial crisis was not caused by deregulation but instead over-taxation and whatever else bull they are pushing at the moment.
My point was, "adventuring is not any harder than every day work women had to do no matter what", even easier, considering it is not an army and women could adventure at their own pace, not obligated to do anything they did not want to do.
@Nonnahswriter gave you another excellent reason why things like pregnancy or periods would not be such a burden in Faerun.
So, sorry, but when someone wants to see more women in fantasy world, that person wants really to see a normal women not chained to the kitchen by traditions and society needs. Nothing on women physiology prevents them from having life they desire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe_Gozen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Zakrzewska
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nzinga_of_Ndongo_and_Matamba
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_de_Clisson
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association
Though, please to be noted, there is a serial murderer kiling children in BG that helps you jailbreak, so if you are trying to say darker aspect of mankind should be portrayed, they already are. If you are trying to say anything else, please explain.
I think I spotted a wolf! Well, maybe it's just a troll...