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If women are easily the counterparts etc., then where are they?

24

Comments

  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,193
    chimeric said:

    With a mod full of dudes, they will more likely than not end up doing the dude thing, which in the games comes down to being rude and killing things. Just look at Sarevok and his all-boys gang: Tazok, Angelo... Don't get me wrong: I appreciate the dude thing, but I've done quite enough of it to last me.

    Men being assholes sounds like a great reason to make mods that depicts them as not being just that tbh...

    And since I don't really play a lot of mods I can't comment on the respective gender representations, but
    Mirandel said:

    Hmmm... Out of 43 mods with additional NPC suggested by BWS (and not counting pairs like Kivan/Deheriana) - 22 are females of all kind of professions and classes.

    makes it sound like modders are already on top of things.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084
    Historically, having a lot of women fighting in wars and slaying wooly mammoths wouldn't make sense. But D&D is not history; it's fantasy. It can afford to be different from our world, or even unrealistic. A lot of folks just like seeing women in non-traditional roles, so writers create those characters.

    Likewise, plenty of people like seeing stories that reflect our own history. I'm a feminist but I liked seeing the full-blown patriarchal world in Downton Abbey because it was interesting and foreign. It introduced some conflict into the show when people had to deal with values that people these days would find alien and backward. Yet I also like the relatively liberated environment in D&D, in which women can be anything.

    I don't usually care much for art that's designed to make a moral stand, but plenty of people do.

    Like any other form of art, games don't have to be one way or the other. It just depends on what kind of story the audience wants.

    RavenslightArtonaOlvynChuruThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Mirandel said:


    You don't want more females in games, litrature, TV, anything.
    What you want is females who put a huge part of being a woman to one side and play with the boys.

    Who are from a narrow age range because guess what, being female does actually take it's toll, (although we hang on longer at the end). Who never are unreasonable/incapacitated/incapable because of menstruation (and women are frquently), who will always be able to pick up a sword, are as strong as the males (which women aren't), who never feel different than any of the males physically or emotionally so they fit into the group.

    Basically a woman with none of the drawbacks of being a woman in a demanding, physical enviroment.

    Just a small note - I know you did not mean it at all, but it does sound like in medieval (and not only, of course) age someone actually did give a damn about women's mood or health. Actually, nobody did give a damn about men's mood or health either, but the point is - all these stuff you mentioned did not freed a single woman out of hard labor at the house or in the fields. Women worked a lot regardless of their conditions: they had to cook, no matter how much they throw up because of morning sickness, they had to feed livestock and work in the fields regardless of need for breastfeeding or even giving birth (don't tell me you are unfamiliar with an idea "make a break for a labor and then go back to work").

    Hard physical work was always there for women, actually, "adventuring" would be a simple trade off some safety for less work - that's all. And the reasons not many women did that are mostly social, as @DrakeICN perfectly summed up.
    Missed this post.

    Yes, women always had to do hard work, but who saw this as an ideal?
    If it were considered an "ideal" then the moment one's social standing (usually money) increased, the work wouldn't have been given up and passed onto somebody else to do.

    So not sure what your point is, women have had to work very hard when a society is poor so lets keep them at it?

    And people did and have always given a damn about their health and wellbeing otherwise there would have been no progress.
    The fact that modern medicine has caused such a huge leap in health outcomes doesn't negate all the smaller outcomes that occured previously.

    And "adventuring" which is a fantasy occupation anyway, if considered realistically would never be seen as involving less work.
    Long marches carrying heavy equipment, life threatening incident, long marches carrying heavy equipment.

    The only equivalent I could think of is an army with camp followers.
    And how many over the years have died on them?


  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084

    They just want to have a go at something or the other.
    Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.

    Yet that, too, is just another example of what somebody wants out of a story. Personally, I don't get a kick out of seeing somebody "smash the patriarchy" in fiction.

    But I do get a kick out of seeing Captain America punch Nazis. Honestly, the desire is coming from the same part of our brains.

    We just like to see the bad guys lose and the good guys win. The only difference is which we think is which.

    Balrog99RavenslightThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,318

    We just like to see the bad guys lose and the good guys win.

    Huh? Er... b-but of course we do!

    *quickly hides his big Hail Hydra flag*

    Ravenslightsemiticgodlolien
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 899
    I haven't checked my listing of BG2 NPCs by gender, but last I looked at by M/F romance, it was even with females leading by +1.

    Having written fantastical worlds in pseudo-medieval settings, I've actually thought a lot about the difficulties of childbirth and pregnancy for women in that world. And you know the one thing that the Forgotten Realms has that our own world doesn't?

    Magic.

    More specifically, healing magic.

    We'd also have to introduce the fact that FR gods are REAL and take active roles in the FR world, and faith is not, just, well, blind faith, and prayer is actually asking for visible, personal divine intervention.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,318
    Magic however is not onmipotent in Faerun. Or within D&D in general. The plague of NwN being an excellent example of how healing magic can turn out to be completely powerless agains ailments.

    Not to mention that being exposed to any kind of magic can actually do a lot of harm. For example: Resurrecting pregnant women can sometimes even cause the unborn child to become undead (or rather, semi-undead) just like dhampirs. Although I am not sure whenever I read this in the Ravenloft setting or an Dragon# issue. Ah, well. Still makes for an interesting background story either way.
    Another example would be the magical corruption of the Dark Sun setting. Bit like the Spellplague, but so much more interesting. Especially since arcane magic uses lifeforce as fuel. :naughty:

    semiticgodRavenslight
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623

    The problem as I see it, and have tried to illustrate, is that those who want to bring the "real world" into it never really want to reflect the "real world".
    They just want to have a go at something or the other.
    Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.

    Hows this for real world?
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/all-female-peshmerga-unit-fighting-isis_us_5729fd3de4b0bc9cb04530eb

    I think the problem with the, uh, "white male patriarchy" and other conservatives such as Saudi Arabia is that they are actually disconnected with the real world, instead living in the Lala-land where all women are weak and global warming isn't real and the 2008 financial crisis was not caused by deregulation but instead over-taxation and whatever else bull they are pushing at the moment.

    Mirandel
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506

    Mirandel said:


    You don't want more females in games, litrature, TV, anything.
    What you want is females who put a huge part of being a woman to one side and play with the boys.

    Who are from a narrow age range because guess what, being female does actually take it's toll, (although we hang on longer at the end). Who never are unreasonable/incapacitated/incapable because of menstruation (and women are frquently), who will always be able to pick up a sword, are as strong as the males (which women aren't), who never feel different than any of the males physically or emotionally so they fit into the group.

    Basically a woman with none of the drawbacks of being a woman in a demanding, physical enviroment.

    Just a small note - I know you did not mean it at all, but it does sound like in medieval (and not only, of course) age someone actually did give a damn about women's mood or health. Actually, nobody did give a damn about men's mood or health either, but the point is - all these stuff you mentioned did not freed a single woman out of hard labor at the house or in the fields. Women worked a lot regardless of their conditions: they had to cook, no matter how much they throw up because of morning sickness, they had to feed livestock and work in the fields regardless of need for breastfeeding or even giving birth (don't tell me you are unfamiliar with an idea "make a break for a labor and then go back to work").

    Hard physical work was always there for women, actually, "adventuring" would be a simple trade off some safety for less work - that's all. And the reasons not many women did that are mostly social, as @DrakeICN perfectly summed up.
    Missed this post.

    Yes, women always had to do hard work, but who saw this as an ideal?
    If it were considered an "ideal" then the moment one's social standing (usually money) increased, the work wouldn't have been given up and passed onto somebody else to do.

    So not sure what your point is, women have had to work very hard when a society is poor so lets keep them at it?

    And people did and have always given a damn about their health and wellbeing otherwise there would have been no progress.
    The fact that modern medicine has caused such a huge leap in health outcomes doesn't negate all the smaller outcomes that occured previously.

    And "adventuring" which is a fantasy occupation anyway, if considered realistically would never be seen as involving less work.
    Long marches carrying heavy equipment, life threatening incident, long marches carrying heavy equipment.

    The only equivalent I could think of is an army with camp followers.
    And how many over the years have died on them?


    Wait, where did you see anything about "ideal" in my post or suggestion tot keep women on hard labor?!

    My point was, "adventuring is not any harder than every day work women had to do no matter what", even easier, considering it is not an army and women could adventure at their own pace, not obligated to do anything they did not want to do.

    @Nonnahswriter gave you another excellent reason why things like pregnancy or periods would not be such a burden in Faerun.

    So, sorry, but when someone wants to see more women in fantasy world, that person wants really to see a normal women not chained to the kitchen by traditions and society needs. Nothing on women physiology prevents them from having life they desire.

    Skatan
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 1,863
    i had no idea you made Petsy @LavaDelVortel! i've been using your mods for the longest time apparently :D

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,318
    No mentioning of Pope Joan? Moving aside the fact whenever she really existed or not. The story of this female pope is pretty legendary over here in Europe.

    SkatanDee
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,995
    All I can say is that anyone who thinks women are meek have never met my family. Then again, we are an old pioneer family.

    ThacoBell
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,132
    Shoot, I just enjoyed it more whenever we got the chance to play PnP with women among the players, and that seems like it was rare looking back now. I liked the change of perspective. and it was refreshing. It was hard enough though being shy, just to get anybody other than family and immediate friends in a small country town. :)

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    DrakeICN said:

    The problem as I see it, and have tried to illustrate, is that those who want to bring the "real world" into it never really want to reflect the "real world".
    They just want to have a go at something or the other.
    Usually "the white male patriarchy" as that's the current bogeyman.

    Hows this for real world?
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/all-female-peshmerga-unit-fighting-isis_us_5729fd3de4b0bc9cb04530eb

    I think the problem with the, uh, "white male patriarchy" and other conservatives such as Saudi Arabia is that they are actually disconnected with the real world, instead living in the Lala-land where all women are weak and global warming isn't real and the 2008 financial crisis was not caused by deregulation but instead over-taxation and whatever else bull they are pushing at the moment.

    Quod Erat Demonstrandum

    Gallowglass
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,132
    I think it interesting how ISIS folks are worried about being shot by female soldiers. No 72 virgins in heaven and they have to return 'To GO" without $200. B)

    Balrog99
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    IDGI what are you trying to say with this post?

    Though, please to be noted, there is a serial murderer kiling children in BG that helps you jailbreak, so if you are trying to say darker aspect of mankind should be portrayed, they already are. If you are trying to say anything else, please explain.

  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 170
    DrakeICN said:

    IDGI what are you trying to say with this post?

    If 30 female soldiers is enough to prove that all women are just as strong/tough/etc. as men, then 1000 NAMBLA members is enough to prove that all men are homosexual pedophiles.

    semiticgod
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506

    DrakeICN said:

    IDGI what are you trying to say with this post?

    If 30 female soldiers is enough to prove that all women are just as strong/tough/etc. as men, then 1000 NAMBLA members is enough to prove that all men are homosexual pedophiles.
    I have a strange feeling there are much more working women out there (of all colors and classes), more women-soldiers (of all colors and classes), more women in sports (of all kind) and constantly traveling women (gypsy, anyone?) than 30. Am I mistaken?

    ThacoBellEmpyrial
  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 145
    ooops, that escalated quicky

    ArtonasemiticgodEmpyrial
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    This thread is a time bomb, isn't it?

    ... you said that much earlier in the thread, but it now turns out that you were right.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,513
    @WatchForWolves

    I think I spotted a wolf! Well, maybe it's just a troll...

    subtledoctor
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,746
    Attention, please. Only moderators can decide who is a troll and who is not a troll. If you think someone has violated the Site rules, then report it. If you start calling other users trolls you're acting disrespectfully to those users. Meanwhile, everyone in this thread should take a deep breath before continuing.

    semiticgodThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,513
    Sorry. That was meant to be humorous. Not intended to insult...

    semiticgod
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623

    DrakeICN said:

    IDGI what are you trying to say with this post?

    If 30 female soldiers is enough to prove that all women are just as strong/tough/etc. as men, then 1000 NAMBLA members is enough to prove that all men are homosexual pedophiles.
    When did I say all women? When did anyone in this thread? Well, keep fighting the good fight then, I guess, Don Quixote.

  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403
    Well they say a woman's work is never done, so its probably why they are paid less.

This discussion has been closed.