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Boxing Thread

13

Comments

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    Yeah, it's disgusting. I think I'm finally done with the sport. It's enough with all the bad decisions, but when you add in the risk aversion that's employed by today's A side fighters, it's too much. Mayweather set a terrible precedent.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 3,323

    Yeah, it's disgusting. I think I'm finally done with the sport. It's enough with all the bad decisions, but when you add in the risk aversion that's employed by today's A side fighters, it's too much. Mayweather set a terrible precedent.

    People complain about WHEN Mayweather fought everyone, but, in the end, he beat everybody. They say he fought Pacquaio too late, Canelo too early, Marquez at an advantageous weight, etc etc etc. In the end, these arguments assume that Mayweather was perpetually in his prime whenever he fought and his opponents weren't, as if he as in stasis. The thing people need to realize about Mayweather is that he didn't just view the fights as a part of boxing he wanted to win, he wanted to beat the GAME of boxing. In a professional career that spanned 50 fights, he was knocked down one time. In a sport where many vets can't speak by the time they are 50, he sustained no lasting damage. I saw him take one shot that seriously put him in trouble against Mosley, and he shook it off and humiliated Shane for 9 straight rounds afterwards.

    The list of boxers he beat reads like a who's who of the last 2 decades of the sport: Diego Corrales, Jose Luis Castillo (twice), Arturo Gatti, Zab Judah, Oscar De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton, Juan Manuel Marquez, Shane Mosley, Miguel Cotto, Canelo Alvarez, and Manny Pacquaio. The fact he never managed to lose one of these fights, never had an off night once since 1996, is stunning.
    ArtonaArctodusDreadKhan
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Even though I don't like the guy, what @jjstraka34 said is true. You don't beat 22 world champions and several Hall of Famers (future or actual) without being really special. I personally think he did lose the first Castillo fight, but even if he would have, his placd among the all-time great should still be assured. I think he lost because he broke his hand, not because he's a lesser boxer.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Arctodus said:

    ... and de la Goya and Canelo are already backtracking on the immediate rematch. Canelo will be back in May, but doesn't know against who. Seems that GGG is not old enough yet...

    Now that I think about it, maybe I have to backtrack on my comment... De la Hoya is probably already in negociation mode, thus why he would say such a thing. They can't really be avoiding the immediate rematch, because they would look really bad if they did so. That would explain their "new" position. Let them do what they do before starting to moan.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 3,323
    edited September 18
    Arctodus said:

    Even though I don't like the guy, what @jjstraka34 said is true. You don't beat 22 world champions and several Hall of Famers (future or actual) without being really special. I personally think he did lose the first Castillo fight, but even if he would have, his placd among the all-time great should still be assured. I think he lost because he broke his hand, not because he's a lesser boxer.

    He probably should have lost the first Castillo fight, but it's worth noting that while it was questionable, it can't be construed as a straight-up robbery, as it was unanimous and all 3 judges basically saw it the same way. You also don't get to 50-0 without a dollop of luck. For instance, does Tom Brady become the best QB of all-time without that ridiculous call against the Raiders?? Moreover, he took the immediste re-match and won handily. So while it's tough to argue he really deserved the first one, it wasn't exactly Evander Holyfield getting a draw against Lennox Lewis or Bradley or Horn getting the decision over Pacquaio.

    I was watching one of his old fights on Youtube last night and one of the announcers remarked that he would often spar 10-15 minute rounds with multiple sparring partners rotating in and out. Unlike most boxers, his training camps never ended. He was perpetually in training camp. Say what you will about the man personally (nothing good), but his dedication to boxing was unmatched.
    ArctodusArtona
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    Of course Mayweather is special. He's a legitimately great fighter. His boxing IQ is second to none. Talent wise, he's an all-time great. He has great wins (Corrales being the best of them, IMO). But by beating the game of boxing, as you aptly put it, he damaged his own legacy. His career is marred by a long list of misses. People don't just say he fought people at advantageous times - he DID fight people at advantageous times, and he outright avoided others. He waited until Pacquiao was 5 years past his prime for his so called legacy defining fight, avoided Cotto when he was on a roll, etc., etc.. His list of outright misses includes Casamayor, Freitas, Stevie Johnson, Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, Paul Williams, Winky Wright and probably more I can't remember. No fighter can be expected to fight everyone, due to the politics of boxing, but Mayweather's misses are too extensive. Compare him to the greats of earlier eras: Leonard, who fought Duran, Hearns, Benitez, Kalule, Hagler, etc... Imagine if Leonard had waited 5 years for Hearns to have wars at 154 and 160 before finally facing him? Or how about fellow natural lightweight, Roberto Duran? Late career he fought prime versions of Hagler at 160 and Tommy Hearns at 154. To equal that legacy-wise, Mayweather would have had to have fought GGG at 160, four or five years ago. Oscar De La Hoya fought everyone, too - even prime Hopkins at 160.

    Then Mayweather comes along and creates the ultimate career blue print for risk aversion, a precedent which will probably damage the sport of boxing. Here's Canelo, who is a warrior at heart and who was at one point was a complete gun for fighting Lara and Trout when his team begged him not to, now waiting for GGG to get old before fighting him.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 3,323
    edited September 18
    In regards to Margarito, I don't blame anyone for not fighting him in hindsight. #1 because he was a cheater who should have been brought up on assault charges and #2 it was proven in his subsequent fights with Mosley, Cotto, and Pacquaio that without the lead in his gloves he wasn't that good. And whatever happened to Miguel Cotto can be laid straight at the feet of that first fight with Margarito, where he was getting hit with loaded gloves for 11 rounds.

    As to weight, I feel as if Mayweather just wasn't stupid enough to constantly be making that jump, because it usually makes for very unfair fights. The prime example being when De La Hoya moved down to fight Pacquaio. He had no chance in that fight. Watching it again recently, Oscar resembles nothing so much as a late-stage AIDS patient in that ring. I'm surprised he even lasted 8 rounds.

    The delay in the Pacquaio fight had alot to do with Floyd telling Bob Arum to go f**k himself and show him the money. And once Manny got put to sleep by Marquez, they no longer had the leverage to demand a 50/50 split.
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    But it's only in hindsight that we knew Margarito was cheating. We can't go back and factor it in as a reason for the miss. You're right that Margarito is a disgrace and should have been banned for life. But with or without plaster in his gloves he was a monster in the ring. Not the best of his era of course, but still a bad MF. His fight with Pacquiao was one of the most brutal things I've ever seen. It was the end of both of their primes. They practically beat each other to death. Margarito lost his eye, pretty much, and should never have been allowed to fight again for health reasons. He was a mere shell of himself in the rematch with Cotto. Pacquiao never fought like that again, either. It was the end of his great run.

    As for weight, no fighter has to move up. But if you're going to have the audacity to call yourself TBE you have to dare to be great, which Floyd never did. There were a number of reasons for the Pacquiao fight falling through, and there's blame to go around, but if you sort through it all the greatest reason is Mayweather wasn't willing to risk his zero. At some point in his career he became obsessed with it. Ironically, if Floyd had lost earlier in his career (let's say if Castillo got the decision in their first fight), his legacy would have been better because he'd likely have taken more risks with that first L out of the way. And for all that he calls himself 'Money' - and he has done a damn good job of making money - he would have made much more had he faced Pacquiao in 2009/2010. Not only was the fight way bigger then, it likely would have spawned a rematch or even a trilogy. I so wish we'd seen it. In the end though, Floyd is still a great fighter and I have deep respect for anyone who's brave enough to get in there. I certainly would never want to come up against him in a fight!
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 3,323
    edited September 18
    Cotto's loss to Margarito never made any sense to me until the night of the Mosley fight (which I was watching live) when HBO reported that Nasim Richardson had seen something very suspicious while watching Margarito get his hands wrapped. Richardson might have saved Mosley's life that night, or someone else's down the road. I have immense respect for Miguel Cotto, who should not even have that loss on his record. But he was also never again that elite fighter after being on the receiving end of what were essentially brass knuckles.

    The only thing I've seen more ergregious than what Margarito did was this (which I also for some reason was watching live):

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    Yeah, I was also watching that fight live. It was disgusting... I can still hear Teddy Atlas and Bob Papa calling for Butler to be arrested, which he eventually was. Margarito was terrible, too. Unfortunately, we can't go back and 'prove' legally that he was packing his gloves before that - but we know damn well he was.
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    And yeah, poor Cotto. I'll never forget the look on his face in the rematch when he was getting his revenge.
    Arctodus
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 3,323
    Multiple fights on TV in the next few days:

    Tuesday (FS1) - Mario Barios vs Naim Nelson Junior Welterweight 10 Rds.
    Friday (ESPN) - World Featherweight Championship Oscar Valdez vs Genesis Servania
    Saturday (HBO) - Lightweight World Championships Jorge Linares vs Luke Campbell
    OrlonKronsteenArctodus
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Well, Andre Ward calls it a career. Not a bad move. His idea of going up at heavyweight was probably not a good idea, and it doesn't seem like he has any good fight in front of him. While I believe he lost the first Kovalev fight, the second one was a legit victory, even if some of those body shots were indeed low. Great career, amazing technician. First ballot Hall of Famer.
    ArtonaOrlonKronsteen
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 3,323
    edited September 22
    Andre Ward was a very good fighter, though I wouldn't call him a great one. I'd say he deserves a Hall of Fame spot, but I also wouldn't make him first ballot. I think the resume is a pretty thin historically, though you can't discount the fact that he never lost. Andre Ward's real problem from a legacy standpoint is that he ended up being the consensus PvP best fighter at the exact time when boxing was disappearing into oblivion in the eyes of the public.

    The sport is in a tough spot. After Pacquaio get his revenge fight against Horn, I imagine he is done (at least he should be). GGG is going to go maybe twice more. That leaves Canelo, Lomachenko and Terrance Crawford to carry the sport. Canelo will always have two big fights a year until he retires (because the Mexican audience reigns supreme in this sport, something Floyd Mayweather recognized early on), but he's not Julio Caesar Chavez, or Oscar, or even Juan Manuel Marquez for that matter. Canelo can sell a fight to a certain point, but he is never going to be a mega-star. Things haven't been great for awhile, but it's about to get worse from a public interest perspective.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Don't count out the possible resurgence of the heavyweight division. If Joshua keeps on winning, he'll still fill those huge football stadium in the UK and could easily be PPV material. A fight in Vegas could totally be in the cards. How about a unification bout with Wilder ? I don't think that's big a possibility, because I think Wilder will lose to Ortiz, but he does have that big equalizer, so you never know. It all depends on whether one of the big guy is the real deal or not (which I still have doubt about, to be honest).
    OrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    I think Ward made a good move as well. It's nice to see someone leave the sport at the right time - so rare. If I were him I might have gone up to heavyweight for one fight and a giant pay cheque to ride off into the sunset with, but then again, he seems really smart and has probably saved his money, so why risk getting clobbered by Joshua? In the end, I think he's a great fighter, though I agree he didn't have enough fights.

    I agree the sport may be in a rough spot, even though 2017 has been a good year. The heavyweights are looking better - or at least more interesting - than they have for awhile. Let's hope, as Arctodus says, they're not a bust. Wilder and Ortiz is really interesting. Ortiz has better fundamentals but he's getting long in the tooth. If it's a great fight, the winner versus Joshua will be huge. Lomachenko looks like he could be an all-time great talent to watch, and he's absolutely fearless in terms of matchmaking. Welter could be interesting with Thurman and Spence... Let's hope these guys generate interest with mainstream fans. I don't see Canelo being around all that much longer, to be honest. I don't think he has the physiology for a long career, and I think he's smart like Ward. I don't think we'll see Canelo fighting in his thirties, but there are probably more great Mexican warriors waiting in the wings.
    Arctodus
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    And, Ortiz failed a drug test so his fight with Wilder is off.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    edited September 29
    This is sad. You gotta feel bad for Wilder, who paid his mandatory Stiverne to fight Ortiz. Same thing happened against Povetkin. At least, everything is lined up for a mega bout against Joshua in 2018.

    For Ortiz, that's the end of the line, I guess. Seems like a big wasted potential to me, but, since it's a second offence, you can't really defend the dude.
    OrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    Yeah, Ortiz didn't start getting fights until too late, and just couldn't fight at a competitive level in his late 30s without PEDs. Most people can't. Remember back in 70s and 80s when 35 was absolutely ancient?

    And yeah, it really sucks for Wilder. It's a huge financial loss as well as time investment.
    Arctodus
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,109

    While waiting for another big fight card to materialize today, I figured we could pass the time by reflecting on some of the great fighters of the past.

    This is one of my all-time favorite fighters, early '50s Welterweight champion Kid Gavilan, a.k.a. "The Cuban Hawk." He was fast, flashy, skillful, exciting, and IMMENSELY sturdy (he was only knocked down 2 or 3 times in his entire 140-plus fight career, and was never stopped short of the distance).

    Here he is while awaiting a shot at the WW title, jumping up what would actually be two weight classes today and fighting a leading MW contender (and feared puncher) in Paddy Young:


    Here he is winning the title against Johnny Bratton:


    Here he is in a non-title bout while champion, against tough journeyman Fitzie Pruden:


    ArctodusOrlonKronsteenDreadKhan
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    @SharGuidesMyHand Thanks for posting those. Amazing footage! The old-time fighters were boss. Gavilan's crouch, his movement along the ropes... and that bolo punch to the body was vicious.

    Looks like we may not have too long to wait for the next big fight though...
    http://www.boxingscene.com/george-foreman-ready-ring-return-targets-steven-seagal--121059
    Arctodus
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Foreman vs Seagal... That's simply beyond a freak show...
    OrlonKronsteen
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,109

    @SharGuidesMyHand Thanks for posting those. Amazing footage! The old-time fighters were boss. Gavilan's crouch, his movement along the ropes... and that bolo punch to the body was vicious.

    Looks like we may not have too long to wait for the next big fight though...
    http://www.boxingscene.com/george-foreman-ready-ring-return-targets-steven-seagal--121059

    image
    OrlonKronsteenArctodus
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Just watched Joshua vs Takam. Got me thinking.

    Nice fight. Takam showed plenty of heart. It was a bad stoppage from the ref. Even though it was mostly a one-sided affair, Takam was still strong on his feet. I don't complain much though, because Joshua would have won anyway.

    I think the biggest quality Joshua has is his accuracy. Even more than his power. He can hit pinpoint even on weird angles from the inside. Nice to see.

    I still have some doubts about Joshua though... For the second fight in a row, he got tired after round 6. It seems paradoxical to say this, because he still managed to get the ko in both fights, but his volume drops significantly when he goes past round 6. He's probably a bit too big for his own good. Dropping about 10 or 15 pounds of muscle would probably help him. He wouldn't even lose power.

    If that big goofball Tyson Fury can get back into the shape he had when he beated Klitschko, he probably would be able to beat Joshua too. Fury would not have a disadvantage in size and reach, so Joshua wouldn't be able to maul him easily at range like he did against smaller opponents. Joshua thus would connect less than he's used to, and probably would have to go deep into championship rounds with less momentum. Fury would circle around him and hitting with his jab in an ugly and kinda boring fight he would probably win. It's all a moot point though, because I think Fury will never be back at the highest level.

    Joshua is also stiff. He doesn't move well and can be hit cleanly. Takam landed more than I thought he would for a smaller man. Especially in the later rounds. I think Joshua has a decent chin, because he was unfazed by those shots. Yeah, Klitschko dropped him, but there's no shame in being dropped by one of the best 1-2 in boxing history. I wonder if he can take Wilder's punches, though. Not sure.

    Don't get me wrong : Joshua is still a handful for any heavyweight boxer out there. He's probably the most complete at the moment. I just see chinks in his armor.

    All in all, I'm not too excited by heavyweight boxing anymore. There's Wilder-Joshua on the horizon, but other than that, there's not much quality. Ortiz has lost all the small traction his name could gather. If he can get back into championship talks, he's gonna be even older than he is now. I'm really not convinced Parker is something special. Fury will never be back in the ring, at least not at the level he was. We might be heading into another Klitschko-like era : a good champion stucked in a weak timeframe. If he gets past Wilder, I envision Joshua staying in England, because he would have no reason to do otherwise, and he would be fighting twice a year, most of the time against no hopers. It's a bit sad, really...
    jjstraka34OrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    Yeah, I don't know what it is about heavyweights. It's the big money division, so you think a lot of big people would want to box. Some say it's because boxing is dying, but the UFC heavyweight division is just as bad. I don't get it.
    ArctodusDreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    Eh, being a heavy weight fighter means getting hit by heavy weight fighters, which does not sound fun. Or entirely sane.
    Arctodus
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Yeah, I kinda agree there, but on the other hand, the cruiserweight division, where guys are not that much smaller, is absolutely stacked. There's top notch talents like Usyk, Gassiev, Dorticos, Breidis and also older ex champions who are still very solid : Huck, Glowacki, Lebedev. And you also have solid gatekeepers like Kalenga and Kudryashov.

    The cruiserweight division, even though historically not popular, is probably my favorite weight class at the moment. With 147 actually, even moreso with Crawford's recent decision to move up in that weight.

    The heavyweight division is just in an historical slump, talent wise. Two years ago, I was a bit more optimistic, but then Fury got all crazy and solid fighters like Ortiz and Povetkin were caught with PEDs. Without these incidents, the division would look a lot better.
    OrlonKronsteenDreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    I remember when I was growing up, the heavy weights were what everyone talked about, and that seemed to really change in the 2000s, perhaps related to the fact that in the early UFC stuff bigger guys weren't winning it, and people realized that most fighters aren't really at their competetive best at +200lbs.

    Lots of cruiserweights COULD gain weight and move up, but heavyweight has a huge range... if you're on the smaller side of a heavyweight, you could be taking on fighters with 30lbs of good weight on you, an unpleasant situation.

    I'm a pretty large guy myself, 260lbs with a 38in waist, but I have been much smaller, I was 170lbs of boney sinew at my lightest, and I was physically in pretty decent health, all things considered. If I could manage 170, and nobody was paying me, how many guys do you think truly need to weigh +200 to get slugged by a 250lb brute vs a 190lb one? And thats ignoring the fact that a fighter might easily have much better conditioning when 20lbs lighter, meaning they might not be getting hit as much as a cruiser. Imho, thats a real incentive, the possibility that you'd be technically more proficient while lighter/leaner. Getting hit less often and less hard sounds very attractive.
    ArctodusOrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 399
    Yeah, the danger of moving up to heavyweight from cruiser changed in the 90s, when the super-heavies started appearing. There have always been freaks (e.g. Primo Carnera) but in the 90s you started to see guys who were big and could really fight, like Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis (of course that didn't stop Holyfield from making the jump). At which point moving from cruiser to heavy became comparable to moving from light-heavy weight to heavy in the 70s and 80s ( it's hard to find anything more brutal than Joe Frazier vs Bob Foster). And maybe that is why today's cruisers aren't moving up (along with a competitive division bringing interest and spoils of its own). Being a natural 195 pounder and taking a death shot from a Lennox Lewis-type guy would really suck. But then again, fighters usually aren't of the temperament that worries about getting punched in the head, so who knows. And even in the old days, moving to heavyweight was a dangerous proposition.

    You make a great point that after a certain size, size works against you. Huge men are slower and they tire easily. Stephen Edwards and other great boxing minds say that the greats from earlier eras would have no problem beating today's heavyweights, including the Klitschkos. Look at what a washed up Holyfield did to Valuev.

    Another thought: when you think about it the number of really big men who are solid technical fighters with any kind of stamina has been really small: Bowe, Lewis, and the Klitchkos, off the top of my head. Joshua seems okay (admittedly I've not seen much of him) but my gut tells me he could get exposed at some point. I think Fury is done and I don't think he was ever that good to begin with. Wilder is exciting but we're waiting for him to walk into a punch (and technically he's not a super heavy - he's tall and rangy but under 230)... Any other really good heavies I'm missing?
    ArctodusDreadKhan
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 596
    Well, maaaaaybe Jarrell Miller. The guy's freakin' huge. He's "only" 6'4, but his fighting weight is 300lbs.

    I don't know much about him, but I saw his fight against Gerald Washington. For guy that heavy, he actually had a solid engine. The fight was stopped after the 8th, and Miller kept throwing all night long. But it's always the same thing : he's largely untested. Maybe he's all smokes and mirrors, but maybe he can take a guy like Joshua in deep water. On paper, he seems to have the tools to do so. In reality ? Meh... dont know for sure...
    OrlonKronsteen
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