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Boxing Thread

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Comments

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,574
    I heard a possibly BS news/interest piece awhile back about boxing, an interview with iirc a decently placed person in the boxing apparatus who claimed that a lot of fights were effectively fixed, though apparently for somewhat noble reasons. Supposedly for many fights, the fighter the 'experts' believe is overall better will be the winner, and both fighters just put on a good show rather than inflicting serious injuries to each other. I also knew a former short-lived professional heavyweight that quit boxing after being ordered to take a dive. Dunno if he was just BSing or not, hard to say, as he was from a 3rd world country, so even if true it might not apply.

    Now, I didn't really believe everything the interviewee said, but the part about trying to minimize injuries for boxers that are promising makes some sense, as there is some significant investment to make a champion boxer.

    Semi-related, but specifically in sports like hockey and football in the last ~30-40 years the average strength level of the athletes has skyrocketed, and sizes have generally been going up, so much so that both sports are actually more dangerous in some ways, as in you are more likely to get hit hard, even with no rules being broken. Both sports had to change rules to limit concussions, so what I'm wondering is how the trend of stronger/fitter athletes has affected boxing. Could the significantly better punches on average necessitate changes, like rigged fights even, to enable career to last longer? Fighters generally look quite a bit fitter now than 40 or 50 years ago, so I'd be surprised if the advances in sport science somehow skipped boxing.

    Arctodus
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    Truly the end of an era. For decades, HBO has been THE place for the biggest fights, and even taking out PPVs, was usually worth the subscription for that alone. This is perhaps the biggest sign that the sport is slowing retreating into relative obscurity. There are just no stars left. I see no legitimate PPVs after GGG/Canelo 3. Now HBO can't even justify having them on paid cable because it won't draw subscribers:

    http://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/24814171/hbo-drop-boxing-coverage-end-2018

    ArctodusOrlonKronsteen
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 996
    Welp, what we already knew is now official. Seems that HBO didn’t want to invest in boxing because the competition is too fierce now : Showtime, DAZN, ESPN+, ... Still, it’s an era that ends today.

    For the better on some level if you ask me. The PPV model is clearly outdated. First, there’s no real PPV fighters anymore : even ultra talented guys like Lomachenko, Crawford, Usyk or Spence will likely never be household names that resonate in the casual sphere anymore. Wilder/Joshua would do ok/good numbers as a PPV, but still.

    Second, PPVs cost too much. You don’t have to pay to watch football and that’s the most popular sport in USA. That should tell you something about the marketing model.

    Third, there’s a lot more combat sports out there to satisfy our need for violence with the emergence of mma (which I’m starting to be more and more of a fan lately). There’s only so much violence you can rebrand as sport at the end of the day.

    Anyway, one thing’s clear : boxing is never gonna be as popular as it was during the 1960s-1990s era. This is now a niche sport, which can attract a good many eyeballs, but not like before. In 10 years, I suspect boxing will be like is mma right now. One can’t help but to think it’s deserved, because, with its history of corruption and bad decisions, often boxing is its worst enemy.

    DreadKhan
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 597
    I haven't always been a fan of their coverage, but I did prefer them to Showtime and you could always count on them for big fights. Apparently there are other streaming services now, e.g. ESPN+, but I admittedly know nothing about them. Anyone have thoughts on these services - not withstanding the dwindling number of big fights on the horizon?

    I can see Fury, Wilder and Joshua (and perhaps, eventually, Usyk) combining for some PPVs, and maybe Loma, but I agree it doesn't look great. Canelo has a large and loyal fan base I suppose, though how many big fights are there for him after GGG? Jacobs and Charlo (I doubt he'll fight Saunders who just flunked a drug test)? I can't see him fighting in his thirties. There are exciting fighters for hardcore fans, like Spence and Mikey, but I don't see casual fans as buying into it as much.

    ArctodusDreadKhan
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 996
    Oscar de la Hoya is thinking about entering the presidency campaign in 2020. For fuck sake... I’m not american, but, good god, that’s crazy.

    Hey, @jjstraka34, if say, in this batshit crazy world, he’d make it as the Democrat candidate, would you vote for him ? :D

    DreadKhanOrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 597
    He’d be a big improvement over Trump, imho.

    Now I can’t stop thinking of which fighters, past or present, would make good presidents. And by good I really mean entertaining/funny. A silly exercise, but it’s helping boost my morale at work. So far I’m thinking Mayweather or James Toney might be good candidates. Imagine a race between Oscar and Floyd?

    Arctodus
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    Tonight on ESPN Terrance Crawford looks to maintain his undefeated record against a fairly game opponent with his own unbeaten record, Jose Benavidez Jr. It's not a PPV level bout, but it isn't on PPV, so it is probably worth the time to watch.

    Other than that, we have Wilder/Fury coming up on December 1st. These seem to be the only two semi-interesting fights in the next couple months.

    DreadKhan
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 597

    Tonight on ESPN Terrance Crawford looks to maintain his undefeated record against a fairly game opponent with his own unbeaten record, Jose Benavidez Jr. It's not a PPV level bout, but it isn't on PPV, so it is probably worth the time to watch.

    Other than that, we have Wilder/Fury coming up on December 1st. These seem to be the only two semi-interesting fights in the next couple months.

    Tonight's fight could be very exciting. Benavidez is fired up and could exceed his limitations. That said, I can't see Crawford losing at this point.

    Wilder vs Fury is interesting, too. Can Fury regain enough of his old form, and will it be enough? I favour Wilder in that one, but if Fury can get his mojo back I wouldn't count him out.

    Usyk vs Bellew might be interesting in November, but I'm not sure why they're having it at cruiserweight if Usyk has designs on heavyweight and Bellew recently fought there.

    DreadKhan
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    edited October 2018
    Terrance Crawford may not be a household name, but he is a certified rockstar in Omaha, and having this match in his hometown is giving it the feel of a major event. I'll update as the fight goes on.

    Don't know how much to put into Round 1, but Benavidez does not look outclassed so far, and he won the first.

    Crawford takes Round 2 with about 3 good flurries, but Benavidez clearly belongs in the ring with him. Crawford is extremely patient and meticulous.

    Crawford dominates Round 3, even though Benavidez weathers it pretty well. But 3 more rounds like that one and he'll be singing a different tune.

    Benavidez probably wins Round 4 with a big body shot and being able to stand in and trade highly-skilled exchanges.

    Crawford wins Round 5 with solid body shots throughout.

    Crawford wins Round 6, up 4-2 halfway through. Benavidez is a really good, game figher. But Crawford is just better.

    Crawford now pulling away by taking Round 7. Benavidez is starting to gas out and isn't throwing enough. He is approaching the time of the fight where it has to turn around or he'll need a knockout.

    On the one hand, Benavidez keeps shaking off Crawford's big flurries to his face. On the other hand, Crawford keeps landing them. Crawford wins Round 8.

    More of the same in Round 9. At this point barring a miracle, it's wrap-up time.

    Round 10 the best of the fight. Alot of fireworks, but Crawford wins easily again. Benavidez is clearly trying to set up a big shot. It's possible he could land one in the next two rounds, but not likely.

    Crawford takes 11.

    Crawford with a dramatic knockdown with 45 seconds left in the fight. Benavidez gets up but Crawford finishes him on his feet as the ref steps in about 15 seconds later. Crawford is by far the best fighter in the world right now, the best I've seen since Mayweather.

    I will say this as well....ESPN did a really good job tonight of selling Crawford's personal story as a package deal with his tough as nails mother, who the camera went to sitting ringside all throughout the fight. Crawford isn't someone who can make anyone plop down $60 for a PPV, but he IS someone people will tune in to see on basic cable, which is where the sport is now headed. So, for the smaller aspirations of the sport at the moment, Terrance Crawford is a solid top draw.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    OrlonKronsteenDreadKhan
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 597
    I'm sorry I missed it. It will be interesting to see who he fights next - and how soon before he fights Spence.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 964
    So, what are your predictions about Fury vs Wilder fight? :)

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    Artona said:

    So, what are your predictions about Fury vs Wilder fight? :)

    Just happy to have a heavyweight fight that means something that features two undefeated fighters and no Klitschko brothers.

    OrlonKronsteenArtona
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 597
    Wilder. I think he's too relentless and determined, and Fury had a long layoff in which he was really hard on his body. I wouldn't rule Fury out, though. He's a crafty boxer and if he can get himself back even to the neighbourhood of the form he was in against Klitschko, he could pose problems. Props to both of them for fighting each other in this era.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,403

    There is a free fight on Showtime today - Adonis "(not-so-)Superman" Stevenson looks to cling to his title just a little longer against an unbeaten Slavic fighter whose name has about every possible letter in it that isn't a vowel.

    Chavez Jr. was supposed to fight on the same broadcast (from a different location), but pulled out after failing to comply with medical exams.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 964
    It's really beyond me how and why Chavez Jr. is still active professional boxer.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    edited December 2018
    Artona said:

    It's really beyond me how and why Chavez Jr. is still active professional boxer.

    He was nothing but a son coasting on the name of his all-time great father who was fighting tomato cans right up to the point where Canelo dismantled him. And Canelo is only a very good fighter, not a great one. Chavez Jr. was simply a stop-gap with name recognition who was cultivated as a lamb for the slaughter of the guy who would become the actual Mexican star of this generation. But frankly, no one out there has the cache Julio Cesar Chavez or Oscar De La Hoya. Again, I think Canelo is perfectly fine figher, but his stock has risen because of two decisions against Golovkin he didn't deserve. But Chavez Jr. was a joke, and it's ridiculous anyone in boxing commentary ever pretended that was going to be a competitive fight.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,403

    Bye bye Stevenson! Maybe now we'll get to see a champion who defends his title more than once every 2 years. :D

    OrlonKronsteen
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    edited December 2018
    Through 4 rounds I have Wilder up 3-1, but neither man is really doing anything meaningful despite alot of activity.

    I have this 57-57 through 6 rounds, but this is an impossible fight to score.

    I give up trying to score this fight. Most people commenting are way overrating how well Fury is doing, but at the same time Wilder has been underwhelming. I don't know who is winning most of these rounds.

    Wilder scored an out of nowhere knockdown in the 9th, and now things are completely up in the air.

    Wilder seemed totally out of it without a big 12th, where he scores a BRUTAL knockdown of Fury, yet Fury gets up and survives. No idea who pulls this out.

    Split decision/draw. Essentially a fair decision, but Wilder got two knockdowns, and Fury was being praised for doing nothing special the entire time. Hard to not think Wilder deserved it.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 98
    edited December 2018
    I have no doubt that the decision is rigged so that they get more hype and consequently more money for the remake. I am never watching another boxing match until they change the rules to publish refs scores after each round, which is probably never gonna happen.

    It should have been Fury by 4-6 points. Apart from the 2 knockdowns, Wilder did nothing, couldn't hit Fury at all while Fury hit him very clean many times in nearly all rounds. Fury might look like a greasy blob but he's so good at avoiding punches. He deserved it

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    edited December 2018
    Ludwig_II said:

    I have no doubt that the decision is rigged so that they get more hype and consequently more money for the remake. I am never watching another boxing match until they change the rules to publish refs scores after each round, which is probably never gonna happen.

    It should have been Fury by 4-6 points. Apart from the 2 knockdowns, Wilder did nothing, couldn't hit Fury at all while Fury hit him very clean many times in nearly all rounds. Fury might look like a greasy blob but he's so good at avoiding punches. He deserved it

    The first 5 rounds of the fight were almost impossible to score. No one did anything. I definitely think there is no question Fury won the 6th, 7th, 8th, 10th and 11th, but the problem is that Wilder won the 9th and 12th 10-8 by default because of the knockdowns. CompuBox numbers have Fury landing a grand total of 13 more punches the entire fight than Wilder, and certainly most of that admittedly small discrepancy came in the second half of the fight. Since no one was doing much anything of consequence in rounds 1-5, it's not hard to see why most of the judges gave 3 of the first 4 rounds to Wilder. Since neither guy was doing anything noteworthy, they gave them to Wilder because he was coming forward and he also bloodied Fury's nose late in the 4th.

    It's just impossible for me to entertain the idea that that Fury was "robbed" when the match was essentially a coin flip going into the 6th round and Wilder knocked him down twice, the 2nd of which was an absolute monster. Yeah, Fury wins easily if not for the knockdowns, but people are acting like the knockdowns and the first 4 rounds of the fight didn't even happen, and assuming Fury should have won simply because he was a clear victor in 4 or 5 rounds in the back half of the fight. Yeah, Wilder did nothing but the knockdowns, but I have never seen a fight where the overwhelming reaction is that the knockdowns were meaningless. It's not like Fury was putting on some sort of clinic, he was marginally better if you take out the knockdowns.

    I had Wilder up 3-1 after 4, and then Fury started to take over in the more general aspects of the fight. Going back and scoring it again round by round, I have the fight exactly 113-113, which is what the result was when it came out in the wash. And if push comes to shove, I'm certainly going to argue in favor of the guy who scored two knockdowns, one of which was brutal. But people seem to be giving Fury more credit for getting up from it than to Wilder for throwing the punches in the first place.

    Ludwig_II
  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 98
    The main difference in our opinions comes from the first half of the fight then. Because I would give Wilder at most 1 round out of the first 6 rounds, if any. So in my opinion it should be like 10-9 to Fury for a total of 9 rounds, 10-8 to Wilder for rounds 9 and 12, and 10-9 to Wilder for one other round in the first half. Which comes down to Fury leading by 4 points.

    I'm surprised you actually gave 3 rounds out of first 4 to Wilder because I don't remember him landing 1 clean punch at all, while Fury had quite a few. So I disagree that they both did nothing in the first half.

    And I don't care about Fury coming back from knockdown etc, I'm talking from purely points perspective. It's a clean win by Fury in my opinion. You can argue knockdowns must have more weight, but I didn't make the rules of the point system.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,403
    Ludwig_II said:

    I am never watching another boxing match until they change the rules to publish refs scores after each round, which is probably never gonna happen.

    This has actually been tried numerous times throughout boxing history, but has never worked as intended. Not only has it not stopped bad/controversial decisions from happening, but it alters the course of fights once fighters know what the scores are (i.e.: a fighter who is ahead knows he can just stall for time instead of taking risks).

    Ludwig_IIArtonaDreadKhanOrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 597
    Anyone watching Loma tonight? How good is Pedraza?

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,063
    Completely worthless fight tonight between Pacquaio and Broner. Might as well have been a sparring session. Broner looked like a complete tomato can.

    DreadKhan
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,403

    Completely worthless fight tonight between Pacquaio and Broner. Might as well have been a sparring session. Broner looked like a complete tomato can.

    I did enjoy his comment that he "would be 7-0" against Jim Gray. Sounds like the start of a new rivalry.

    image

    DreadKhan
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