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Is there a mod that removes questionable changes beamdog added into EE?

24

Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084
    edited October 2017
    For those who haven't noticed, the discussion over the availability of the original game has been moved to a new thread.

    lolien
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,326
    edited October 2017
    I don't have a horse in this race, but I've just encountered three Flaming Fist officers south of Beregost in my BGT (not EET) run. Granted, I've got a boatload of mods installed so it may as well be a mod (I also don't get why their sprites were changed from Cleric to Fighter, but oh well.)

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    If I'm not mistaken, it's either a component from BG1UB or Tweaks Anthology called "Flaming Fist Reinforcements". There's a similar one for the Athkatlan Guard in SoA.

    AndreaColombo
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 956
    edited October 2017
    Grum said:

    A three man patrol is more logical than a one man patrol. If that's the prime example of beamdog "ruining" rping then I'm not impressed.

    I agree. I always found those "one man" patrols (as there are more of them in the game) just dumb. It makes no sense whatsoever to have a single officer dispatched to look for bandits in a setting where bandits work in groups. That is not good design.

    And there have been plenty of discussions about 'builds', back in ye olde days of original BG.

    TressetGrumMedicell
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 973
    What I find hilarious about these discussions is that Beamdog supposedly ruined the game with minor changes like the extra soldiers in the patrol, while ignoring that the single biggest change to BG 1 war porting it to the BG 2 engine. But somehow there are still plenty of people happily playing Tutu and BG Trilogy, who consider the more minor changes by EE to be an abomination.

    Let's look at some of the most relevant differences between the BG 1/BG 2 engines:

    * Kits
    * Nerfed mage dual-classing (no longer able to specialize)
    * Different walking speeds
    * Summon limits
    * No pause in inventory
    * Tab-Key to find items

    The Tab-Key especially makes things much easier than three suits of plate armor. How likely where you to find the Ring of Prot + 1, the diamond and the ring of wizardry without it in the first three maps? How about the Nashkel Ankheg plate armor?

    This is not to say that I agree with every change done by Beamdog (the "Sleep" nerf is horrible). But if you are complete purist, go play the original in the original engine.

    ThacoBellMedicell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Ammar said:

    What I find hilarious about these discussions is that Beamdog supposedly ruined the game with minor changes like the extra soldiers in the patrol, while ignoring that the single biggest change to BG 1 war porting it to the BG 2 engine. But somehow there are still plenty of people happily playing Tutu and BG Trilogy, who consider the more minor changes by EE to be an abomination.

    Let's look at some of the most relevant differences between the BG 1/BG 2 engines:

    * Kits
    * Nerfed mage dual-classing (no longer able to specialize)
    * Different walking speeds
    * Summon limits
    * No pause in inventory
    * Tab-Key to find items

    The Tab-Key especially makes things much easier than three suits of plate armor. How likely where you to find the Ring of Prot + 1, the diamond and the ring of wizardry without it in the first three maps? How about the Nashkel Ankheg plate armor?

    This is not to say that I agree with every change done by Beamdog (the "Sleep" nerf is horrible). But if you are complete purist, go play the original in the original engine.


    The reason those items were hidden so well is because you weren't meant to find them easily.
    It's the arrogence on display that assumes the original developers didn't know exactly what they were doing and why they were doing what they did.

    Less than 2 months ago I found one of those "easter eggs" (cloudkill scroll) by chance, it was amazingly rewarding.
    So nearly twenty years ago a developer/creator put something odd/silly/non consequential/random in a game and it gave me a reward for playing their game.
    Which was the original intent.

    They got it right. It's why we are all sitting here discussing such an old game.
    Every change should be considered as to whether it interferes with the original intent because you are dealing with a product, a creation, that has proven itself.

    A little humility would go a long way.

    BelgarathMTHdunbarRavenslightPermidion_Stark
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,453
    edited October 2017
    Lately, I've begun to find the presence of the encounters with Beamdog npc's and the (to me) ugly black interface of SoD to be detrimental to my enjoyment of playing BG. So, I've gone back to the originals for the time being. It doesn't make me want to complain or say bad things about Beamdog on these forums, though. It just kind of is what it is, and I have the choice to play whichever version of the game I want.

    I know, mods. But if I want to play with mods, which I usually don't nowadays, well, I used Weidu for years and years and got used to using it. Beamdog has changed the whole modding procedure, and I don't care to spend the time relearning how to do it. Again, it's not that big a deal - I can still use my copies of the originals and use Weidu modding just like I always have, if I so choose.

    Ravenslight
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Grond0 said:

    The reason those items were hidden so well is because you weren't meant to find them easily.
    It's the arrogence on display that assumes the original developers didn't know exactly what they were doing and why they were doing what they did.

    This suggests that developer intent is clear, but that's rarely the case. There are many hidden items in BG2 as well, but the developers (the same developers as for BG1) added the tab key to help find things in that game. So which is more likely:
    1) The developers strongly believed hidden items should only be found accidentally or through searching in BG1, but added a facility to find these in BG2 just because that was a different game.
    2) With the enhanced engine available for BG2 and bearing in mind customer feedback on BG1 the developers added the search facility for BG2 and would have done the same to BG1 if they had ever updated that.

    To my mind the probability is extremely high that if the original developers had updated BG1 they would have included the tab key facility along with many other changes introduced in BG2. It's possible that they would have chosen to balance that by reducing the value of hidden items found in BG1, but I rather doubt that - if only because the 'easter egg' items were by that stage quite well known and removing them would have caused the sort of reaction some of the Beamdog changes have received.
    I haven't got a "tab key" in my BG2.

    We are talking about the same thing here?
    The button you press to show all containers in (is it?) blue that is in SOD.

    It has the "quick loot" diamond tab.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    chimaera said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic
    To each their own.

    While I agree that it was the devs' intent, whether 'they got it right' is debatable. I don't enjoy pixel hunting, nor do I think it good design - especially not in roleplaying games. If secret items are meant to be hidden, then by all means hide them and use a check for a character's ability to find them.

    You might find this sort of gameplay rewarding. In roleplaing games I prefer systems that engage the character I am playing, instead of checking for my mouse scrolling skills.

    But I didn't pixel hunt, it was a genuine find because I killed something on top of it and was picking up loot.

    And just knock off the sneery attitude please.

    It is not debatqable that they got it right.
    It's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt because people are still playing these games, mods are still being made for these games, stories are still being written for these games.

    And in fact Beamdog nor any other company would have touched them with a ten foot barge pole had that not been acknowledged and accepted.

    Ravenslight
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 956
    edited October 2017

    chimaera said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic
    To each their own.

    While I agree that it was the devs' intent, whether 'they got it right' is debatable. I don't enjoy pixel hunting, nor do I think it good design - especially not in roleplaying games. If secret items are meant to be hidden, then by all means hide them and use a check for a character's ability to find them.

    You might find this sort of gameplay rewarding. In roleplaing games I prefer systems that engage the character I am playing, instead of checking for my mouse scrolling skills.

    But I didn't pixel hunt, it was a genuine find because I killed something on top of it and was picking up loot.

    And just knock off the sneery attitude please.

    It is not debatqable that they got it right.
    It's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt because people are still playing these games, mods are still being made for these games, stories are still being written for these games.
    Except those games that you lump together have opposing designs. BG2 has exactly the functionality that you criticize: highlightning (added with ToB, if I remember correctly). So who got it right, exactly? The devs when they didn't add it to the first game, the devs when they added it to the sequel, or the modders who made playing BG1 in the BG2 engine possible in the first place? Tutu had highlightning, and so did BGT.

    Whether you find a secret stash by accident, or by pixel hunting doesn't change the issue with this design: that it has nothing to with your character's abilities or skills. The only check that matters is whether your mouse is at the right place on the screen. And that's not roleplaying.



    GrumArctodusThacoBell
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,084
    When you think about it, even if BG1 came with the highlighting feature to start with, that Ring of Wizardry would still be almost completely unknown to anyone who hadn't heard of it online. The FAI map is thousands of pixels across, and that container is what, 5 pixels wide? You'd have to scour the map to find it even if you were using the highlighting feature.

    And that's assuming you even knew which map it was on.

    ThacoBellRavenslight
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,043

    Lately, I've begun to find the presence of the encounters with Beamdog npc's and the (to me) ugly black interface of SoD to be detrimental to my enjoyment of playing BG. So, I've gone back to the originals for the time being. It doesn't make me want to complain or say bad things about Beamdog on these forums, though. It just kind of is what it is, and I have the choice to play whichever version of the game I want.

    I know, mods. But if I want to play with mods, which I usually don't nowadays, well, I used Weidu for years and years and got used to using it. Beamdog has changed the whole modding procedure, and I don't care to spend the time relearning how to do it. Again, it's not that big a deal - I can still use my copies of the originals and use Weidu modding just like I always have, if I so choose.

    but they did not really change anything. they only added one more step if your modding bg1. and that's using mod merge. everything else is the same. just do that and the le ui mod and you basically have 1.3.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    Grond0 said:

    I haven't got a "tab key" in my BG2.

    We are talking about the same thing here?
    The button you press to show all containers in (is it?) blue that is in SOD.

    As @chimaera said the tab key functionality was added by ToB (and is identical to that in the EE), so if you're only playing with SoA you won't have it - apologies for not mentioning that earlier, I didn't think playing without ToB was common these days.

    The sequence of development in terms of the type of rule changes, UI, extra functionality and expanded gameplay was very similar over the life of the original BG to what's been done with the EE to date. Hence my comment in my earlier post about developer intent - that's always been subject to change and I don't think it really makes sense to pick a specific set of rules and conditions and say that's the way the game was meant to be played.

    It's perfectly reasonable for someone to say that they prefer a particular look or feel of the game - that's a question of individual taste. What I don't think is reasonable though is to say that there is one particular state of the game that is somehow more correct or in tune with developer intent. Given the very considerable changes in the way that the game was played between the original BG1 and the final patched BG2 it seems obvious, at least to me, that if the original developers had been given the time and funding to continue working on the game they would have continued to make further changes. No doubt those would not have been exactly the same as the ones introduced by the EE, but the game would not have stood still.
    Need to clarify this further.

    We are talking about the tab that appears on the RH side above "select all" and "AI on/off?
    In SOD it's a little magnifying glass.

    It's not there for my SOA or TOB.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
    edited October 2017
    @UnderstandMouseMagic It's the literal "TAB" key on the keyboard. Hold it down and all containers are highlighted. Its been a function since ToB. Do you play on a tablet? I can see them adding a button to the UI to allow non-keyboard players the same functionality.

    *EDIT* Oh hey, the SoD UI does have a button to highlight containers on the pc version. Seems a little superfluous, unless there are just that many players that never bothered to learn all the keyboard functionality.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic It's the literal "TAB" key on the keyboard. Hold it down and all containers are highlighted. Its been a function since ToB. Do you play on a tablet? I can see them adding a button to the UI to allow non-keyboard players the same functionality.

    *EDIT* Oh hey, the SoD UI does have a button to highlight containers on the pc version. Seems a little superfluous, unless there are just that many players that never bothered to learn all the keyboard functionality.

    Thankyou, thought I was going mad there for a while.

    Use the keyboard?
    For what?
    Some of us graduated to PC gaming long, long after playing on the SNES.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,049
    @UnderstandMouseMagic I hear ya, I was console gamer from age 5 until just a few years ago. Baldur's Gate and Starcraft were literally the only pc games I played for decades.

    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,735
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic It's the literal "TAB" key on the keyboard. Hold it down and all containers are highlighted. Its been a function since ToB. Do you play on a tablet? I can see them adding a button to the UI to allow non-keyboard players the same functionality.

    *EDIT* Oh hey, the SoD UI does have a button to highlight containers on the pc version. Seems a little superfluous, unless there are just that many players that never bothered to learn all the keyboard functionality.

    Yep - the button on the SoD UI just offers an alternative to pressing the tab key. A slight difference though is that clicking on the button keeps reveal details active permanently (until you click again or press the tab key), as opposed to having to keep the tab key depressed all the time.

    semiticgod
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    Beyond fixing bugs and upgrading the engine to speed up installation and prevent crashes I think all the changes and added content should have been made optional. I never used to play with mods beyond the Baldurdash and Dudleyville fixpacks and the EE version has introduced a lot of things I would rather not have.

    What I would have liked to have seen would have been an option screen asking you whether you wanted to mod the game. Something along the lines of:

    Do you want new NPCs? Y/N

    Do you want new kits at character creation? Y/N

    Do you want to play with BG2 sprites? Y/N

    Do you want to replace the movies? Y/N

    Do you want to give Gorion a Belt of Antipode? Y/N

    etc. etc.

    Basically, I would have liked a smooth-running, unmodded version of the game with optional downloadable content. That really would have been an Enhanced Edition.

    UnderstandMouseMagicRavenslight
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 956
    @Permidion_Stark
    I don't think creating an option menu - which is dependent on the idea that you have played original game, and contains spoilers for the game - is a good idea. It would be confusing (and problematic in the case of spoilers) for new players who are playing the BG saga for the first time.

    The original versions are still available for those who prefer it. The gog version installs very quickly, is stable and has none of the optional EE content. So why not play it instead?

    I run BGT or EE, depending on the mod set up, and both are perfectly playable.

    ThacoBell
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    chimaera said:

    @Permidion_Stark
    I don't think creating an option menu - which is dependent on the idea that you have played original game, and contains spoilers for the game - is a good idea. It would be confusing (and problematic in the case of spoilers) for new players who are playing the BG saga for the first time.

    But that's exactly the point. Wouldn't it be better if people got to play the original game first and then were able to customize it as they want rather than have to play a heavily customized version from the start?

    And yes, you can still get the original game - if you can find it because it has been very well hidden.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 956
    @Permidion_Stark
    That is not my point at all. It's not about which version you consider better. Frankly, I don't like unmodded BG much, and if not for the mods, I wouldn't be plaing this game at all. This doesn't mean I'd recommend modding to everyone.

    My point is that putting all these questions in the options would be problematic for players new to the game.

    Btw, I don't agree with the idea of selling both versions together, but gog literally put it into the very description of the product: contains the classic version. It's not some hidden tiny print on the back. I bought the originals from gog before the ee came out. Wasn't hidden back then either.

    ThacoBelltypo_tilly
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    chimaera said:

    My point is that putting all these questions in the options would be problematic for players new to the game.

    I don't see why. The game is perfectly playable without the bells and whistles that EE added. It would be no different than changing your Feedback options or enabling Autopause. It is something you can do once you have got a feel for the game and decided how you want it to be.

    When the Enhanced Editions were announced I thought it sounded great because I thought the idea was that it would fix the bugs and make it easier for people to mod. It honestly never occurred to me that they would mess with the game itself, add NPCs (who in the case of Neera are unavoidable unless you want to leave half the Beregost map in darkness) and fix stuff that wasn't broken like messing with the movies.

    My point is that they have modded the game and it would have been better to have allowed players to decide which mods they wanted to install.

    Ravenslight
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 956
    edited October 2017

    chimaera said:

    My point is that putting all these questions in the options would be problematic for players new to the game.

    I don't see why. The game is perfectly playable without the bells and whistles that EE added. It would be no different than changing your Feedback options or enabling Autopause. It is something you can do once you have got a feel for the game and decided how you want it to be.

    One of your questions literally asks about a belt Gorion has, how is that not confusing for someone who plays the game first time? Don't assume people check options only after playing the game.

    Again, what you are describing is basically the original gog version, and that one was released by Gog before the EE even came out. You've had the choice to play an easy to install, stable, little added content (tobex) version of original BG ever since.

    ThacoBell
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,406
    edited October 2017
    chimaera said:

    chimaera said:

    My point is that putting all these questions in the options would be problematic for players new to the game.

    I don't see why. The game is perfectly playable without the bells and whistles that EE added. It would be no different than changing your Feedback options or enabling Autopause. It is something you can do once you have got a feel for the game and decided how you want it to be.

    One of your questions literally asks about a belt Gorion has, how is that not confusing for someone who plays the game first time? Don't assume people check options only after playing the game.

    Again, what you are describing is basically the original gog version, and that one was released by Gog before the EE even came out.
    The Gorion thing was meant to be a joke. I should have included a smiley face. And what I'm describing isn't original BG, it is an enhanced edition that allows you to choose which enhancements you include.

    They could have done it by something as simple as having a button saying: "Do you want to apply enhancements (Recommended)" when you first install the game.

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