@Permidion_Stark Have you actually played vanilla BG lately? Its nigh unplayable. It needed the new updates to have any kind of new life and reach more players.
@Permidion_Stark are you sure you were playing vanilla BG1? If your example of the differences between the games was the lack of a gem bag then either this is another of your joke posts or you were actually playing BG1 in the BG2 engine. I agree with @ThacoBell that you have to be a serious enthusiast for antiques to appreciate playing BG1 these days.
When people refer to wanting to play original BG they are typically comparing the EE to a modded version of the final patched ToB version of BG2. As I referred to in an earlier post about developer intent that modded version is hugely different in all sorts of ways from vanilla BG1 (and I could go further of course because vanilla BG1 could refer to the game prior to TotSC which itself made lots of changes).
@chimaera As far as I understand it changing the engine means that more classes and kits could be added but it doesn't significantly change the game from the player's perspective (apart from the sprites look horrible).
Adding content does change the game and should I think have been optional. Basically it comes down to the fact that I dislike the way the new NPCs were implemented. I think they should have been optional not imposed on the game. (And no you can't avoid them because Neera gets you into a fight and Rasaad will join in your fight with Nimbul whether you want him to or not).
But I do like the gem bag. I would like it even better if I could have bought it in a store. (As far as I can see you can't even pickpocket it off Neera. I've turned myself invisible and tried. It seems like you only get it if you accept her into the party or kill her).
However, I wouldn't have bothered to mention any of this if it wasn't for the fact that I am supremely pissed off that you can now only buy a download of the original game if you buy the Enhanced Edition. Beamdog has been complicit in removing the original version of BG from the market and that has really annoyed me (possibly driving me into incoherence).
However, I wouldn't have bothered to mention any of this if it wasn't for the fact that I am supremely pissed off that you can now only buy a download of the original game if you buy the Enhanced Edition. Beamdog has been complicit in removing the original version of BG from the market and that has really annoyed me (possibly driving me into incoherence).
How do you know b-dog was complicit, can you link to some facts about that? Makes me curious, being the internet-savvy person I am, I never trust anything anyone states without proof since internet is full of subjective and emotionally based arguments.
If I understand this correctly, and I only read about it just now since I bought my BGs via Steam and not GOG, the original BG is still available but not as a standalone purchase but as part of the EE. So if you want to buy the originals, you buy the EE and get them included. So they are there, but 'hidden' then as you say. I gotta admit I agree that's kinda weird, especially since it's GOG, but ultimately, the originals are still there for those who want them.
Personally, I played BG1 very, very little back in the day. Practically nothing really. I played more BG2 but not as much as I have played both BG1 and 2 once the EEs came out. So, based on some LPs I've seen on youtube I gotta say I would never in a million years play the old, original and un-modded BG1 today.
@Permidion_Stark I still find it hard to believe from your comments that you're playing the original BG1. There were major changes between that and BG2 that affected the player. Those don't just include the kits, classes and sprites you refer to. Just off the top of my head there were changes to spells, UI, walking speeds, display resolution, weapon proficiencies, stack sizes, item weights, special abilities, summons, familiars and when the game is paused (the list of changes if you went into fully would be much longer than that). The look, feel and method of playing the game was significantly altered.
Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the new EE content and ignore nearly all of that when I play (of course I normally ignore most of the old NPC content as well ). As you point out there is a very small amount of interaction required with Neera and Rasaad. It usually takes me about 5 seconds to kill Neera from range to acquire her gem bag. As for Rasaad I do in a sense play a mini-game with him called "lets try and make sure that Nimbul dies before Rasaad gets a chance to attack him." There are multiple ways to do that, but an easy and effective one is to web both of them before attacking. There are also a couple of conversations / cutscenes in BG2 that it is difficult (though not impossible) to avoid. It does annoy me that the new cutscenes relating to EE NPCs are mandatory, but the hassle of having to sit through those is far more than offset by not having to sit through the original ones.
I tend to agree with your views about no longer offering downloads of the original games separately. However, I think that was almost bound to happen eventually as I think there is virtually zero chance of any new player wanting to play BG1 in preference to the EE. The position for long-term players is different as they may have a sentimental attachment to the original or long-standing customisations of the game to make it play as they desire. However, such players are of course likely to already own the game.
If the original games were offered the danger (from Beamdog's perspective) is that new players decide to buy the cheaper original, to see if they like it before potentially investing in EE. Many such players would probably find the slow speed and restrictive interface of BG1 so off-putting though that they would have no desire to purchase BGEE or other EE games. On the other hand if they purchased BGEE first they would be much more likely to progress on to other games.
The best point for Beamdog to make that transition is a matter of judgement. As I say I have sympathy with your point of view and think Beamdog may have been a bit hasty - but I could well be wrong.
And let’s not forget: no barbarians, no monks, no half-orcs, no kits, no gazebos. Oh, and ammo only stacked to 20. Try managing THAT in an intense fight with no pause on the inventory screen.
To be perfectly honest, I actually have trouble understanding how people enjoyed playing the original Baldur's Gate. So much of the original game would have just been watching tiny pixelated people with doofy-looking helmets stiffly waddling across a field of scruffy grass...
...only to suddenly explode!
Because name an enemy that can't kill you at level 1, when you're a first-time player who has no idea who Shoal is or how to farm ankhegs or basilisks.
Some players like games made a lot easier and that's mainly what the EE did it simplified a lot of stuff. It took away the charm and struggles of the original. You got used to the inventory no pause and the low stacking limit.
Some players want things spoon fed others want the struggles as an extra layer of difficulty having them as optional components would of truly enhanced things.
To be perfectly honest, I actually have trouble understanding how people enjoyed playing the original Baldur's Gate. So much of the original game would have just been watching tiny pixelated people with doofy-looking helmets stiffly waddling across a field of scruffy grass...
...only to suddenly explode!
Because name an enemy that can't kill you at level 1, when you're a first-time player who has no idea who Shoal is or how to farm ankhegs or basilisks.
The basilisk area is quite out of the way. Unlikely to stumble along by chance.
Thing the only important thing was to recognize the power of ranged combat early on. Bonus for getting that with spells disablers >> damage.
If you have gold box training and were aware of the power of the sleep spell, it was already a good start.
Also, everything you say also applies if you play BG:EE for the first time
Some players like games made a lot easier and that's mainly what the EE did it simplified a lot of stuff. It took away the charm and struggles of the original. You got used to the inventory no pause and the low stacking limit.
Some players want things spoon fed others want the struggles as an extra layer of difficulty having them as optional components would of truly enhanced things.
Inventory pause was first taken away by BG 2/Tutu for BG. Same for stacking limit, though EE increased it once more.
Those are not new changes that were made in the EE. That they were going to port to BG 2 engine was clear from the beginning.
Anyway, I never felt that frequent trips to a store to pick up new arrow stacks really added to the challenge. It was more of a chore. The "no pause on inventory" did require you to distribute healing potions and other consumables appropriately, so you could make an argument there. But again, it was already removed for BG 2.
Options are always a good thing in rpgs it what makes them so diverse. Having more customisation for every game rather than have do rely on mods would be a good thing and help extend the playability. That wouldn't be a bad thing.
BG EE is far easier than vanilla BG stock installs. BG vanilla had far more pre planning involvement than it's counter part. That was taken away with BG 2 but options would of been nice to have as optional content for BG EE to have the original restrictions.
BG EE is far easier than vanilla BG stock installs. BG vanilla had far more pre planning involvement than it's counter part. That was taken away with BG 2 but options would of been nice to have as optional content for BG EE to have the original restrictions.
I don't think so. The slower walking speed alone heavily favors the player, especially combined with the poor pathfinding. Hard to say, as most of us played vanilla a long time ago and did not have all the practice we have now.
Even if I sympathize with people who wishes to have the original BG1 feeling in the EEs - because usually the more options a game offers, the best it is for gamers - I don't know how good of a time investment that would have been to put those optional components into the game. Since the EEs are based on the import of BG1 into the BG2 engine, that would have required developing time, only to please a fraction of old time gamers. How big is that fraction ? Not sure to be honest. I have the feeling it is small, but I could be wrong. It's probable Beamdog would have gained more fans by importing original BG1 content as optional, but as far as I know, quite a bit of old time players were already playing in BGT or Tutu, which is basically the same paradigm as the EEs.
What I'm trying to say is that it's modders work now. The original BG1 sprites are already importable. No pause on the inventory is probably possible to add also. Since Beamdog can't please everybody, it's time for fans to mod the game how they want to play, which should be possible under the new EE engine.
People complain that Beamdog changed things in BGEE, so they install the original BG instead and mod the shit out of it to change the exact same things Beamdog changed.
For IOS I have trouble fitting all of the games on my phone. For IOS I can’t mod the games I don’t want to play the originals. The slow walking speed alone was cancer. I didn’t enjoy the inventory management, poor AI, or having an inventory of pure 20 arrow stacks.
If the games had the original and EE I’d be able to fit, what...just BG1 on my phone? That would be horrible.
For IOS I have trouble fitting all of the games on my phone. For IOS I can’t mod the games I don’t want to play the originals. The slow walking speed alone was cancer. I didn’t enjoy the inventory management, poor AI, or having an inventory of pure 20 arrow stacks.
If the games had the original and EE I’d be able to fit, what...just BG1 on my phone? That would be horrible.
It's not about that, it's having an option to revert a few things to how it was in vanilla. Still be BG EE just with optional extras to make it feel more like classic BG. Who wouldn't want extra options.
For IOS I have trouble fitting all of the games on my phone. For IOS I can’t mod the games I don’t want to play the originals. The slow walking speed alone was cancer. I didn’t enjoy the inventory management, poor AI, or having an inventory of pure 20 arrow stacks.
If the games had the original and EE I’d be able to fit, what...just BG1 on my phone? That would be horrible.
It's not about that, it's having an option to revert a few things to how it was in vanilla. Still be BG EE just with optional extras to make it feel more like classic BG. Who wouldn't want extra options.
I don’t, because my phone doesn’t have space for two games, one of which I don’t want.
For IOS I have trouble fitting all of the games on my phone. For IOS I can’t mod the games I don’t want to play the originals. The slow walking speed alone was cancer. I didn’t enjoy the inventory management, poor AI, or having an inventory of pure 20 arrow stacks.
If the games had the original and EE I’d be able to fit, what...just BG1 on my phone? That would be horrible.
It's not about that, it's having an option to revert a few things to how it was in vanilla. Still be BG EE just with optional extras to make it feel more like classic BG. Who wouldn't want extra options.
I don’t, because my phone doesn’t have space for two games, one of which I don’t want.
It's not two games it's one with extra options to disable some of the adjustments.
For IOS I have trouble fitting all of the games on my phone. For IOS I can’t mod the games I don’t want to play the originals. The slow walking speed alone was cancer. I didn’t enjoy the inventory management, poor AI, or having an inventory of pure 20 arrow stacks.
If the games had the original and EE I’d be able to fit, what...just BG1 on my phone? That would be horrible.
It's not about that, it's having an option to revert a few things to how it was in vanilla. Still be BG EE just with optional extras to make it feel more like classic BG. Who wouldn't want extra options.
I don’t, because my phone doesn’t have space for two games, one of which I don’t want.
It's not two games it's one with extra options to disable some of the adjustments.
It’s different game engines, right? We’re not talking just cosmetic changes. I don’t want all of that taking space from my phone.
It's the same engine. Not sure how you don't get that concept. Adding in some extra options u can disable or enable certain things so it replicates BG classic.
Comments
When people refer to wanting to play original BG they are typically comparing the EE to a modded version of the final patched ToB version of BG2. As I referred to in an earlier post about developer intent that modded version is hugely different in all sorts of ways from vanilla BG1 (and I could go further of course because vanilla BG1 could refer to the game prior to TotSC which itself made lots of changes).
I think I would notice if I were playing BG1 in the BG2 engine so I guess it must have been another one of my joke posts.
As far as I understand it changing the engine means that more classes and kits could be added but it doesn't significantly change the game from the player's perspective (apart from the sprites look horrible).
Adding content does change the game and should I think have been optional. Basically it comes down to the fact that I dislike the way the new NPCs were implemented. I think they should have been optional not imposed on the game. (And no you can't avoid them because Neera gets you into a fight and Rasaad will join in your fight with Nimbul whether you want him to or not).
But I do like the gem bag. I would like it even better if I could have bought it in a store. (As far as I can see you can't even pickpocket it off Neera. I've turned myself invisible and tried. It seems like you only get it if you accept her into the party or kill her).
However, I wouldn't have bothered to mention any of this if it wasn't for the fact that I am supremely pissed off that you can now only buy a download of the original game if you buy the Enhanced Edition. Beamdog has been complicit in removing the original version of BG from the market and that has really annoyed me (possibly driving me into incoherence).
If I understand this correctly, and I only read about it just now since I bought my BGs via Steam and not GOG, the original BG is still available but not as a standalone purchase but as part of the EE. So if you want to buy the originals, you buy the EE and get them included. So they are there, but 'hidden' then as you say. I gotta admit I agree that's kinda weird, especially since it's GOG, but ultimately, the originals are still there for those who want them.
Personally, I played BG1 very, very little back in the day. Practically nothing really. I played more BG2 but not as much as I have played both BG1 and 2 once the EEs came out. So, based on some LPs I've seen on youtube I gotta say I would never in a million years play the old, original and un-modded BG1 today.
Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the new EE content and ignore nearly all of that when I play (of course I normally ignore most of the old NPC content as well
I tend to agree with your views about no longer offering downloads of the original games separately. However, I think that was almost bound to happen eventually as I think there is virtually zero chance of any new player wanting to play BG1 in preference to the EE. The position for long-term players is different as they may have a sentimental attachment to the original or long-standing customisations of the game to make it play as they desire. However, such players are of course likely to already own the game.
If the original games were offered the danger (from Beamdog's perspective) is that new players decide to buy the cheaper original, to see if they like it before potentially investing in EE. Many such players would probably find the slow speed and restrictive interface of BG1 so off-putting though that they would have no desire to purchase BGEE or other EE games. On the other hand if they purchased BGEE first they would be much more likely to progress on to other games.
The best point for Beamdog to make that transition is a matter of judgement. As I say I have sympathy with your point of view and think Beamdog may have been a bit hasty - but I could well be wrong.
...only to suddenly explode!
Because name an enemy that can't kill you at level 1, when you're a first-time player who has no idea who Shoal is or how to farm ankhegs or basilisks.
You got used to the inventory no pause and the low stacking limit.
Some players want things spoon fed others want the struggles as an extra layer of difficulty having them as optional components would of truly enhanced things.
Thing the only important thing was to recognize the power of ranged combat early on. Bonus for getting that with spells disablers >> damage.
If you have gold box training and were aware of the power of the sleep spell, it was already a good start.
Also, everything you say also applies if you play BG:EE for the first time
Those are not new changes that were made in the EE. That they were going to port to BG 2 engine was clear from the beginning.
Anyway, I never felt that frequent trips to a store to pick up new arrow stacks really added to the challenge. It was more of a chore. The "no pause on inventory" did require you to distribute healing potions and other consumables appropriately, so you could make an argument there. But again, it was already removed for BG 2.
What I'm trying to say is that it's modders work now. The original BG1 sprites are already importable. No pause on the inventory is probably possible to add also. Since Beamdog can't please everybody, it's time for fans to mod the game how they want to play, which should be possible under the new EE engine.
People complain that Beamdog changed things in BGEE,
so they install the original BG instead and mod the shit out of it to change the exact same things Beamdog changed.
Makes sense.
For IOS I can’t mod the games
I don’t want to play the originals. The slow walking speed alone was cancer. I didn’t enjoy the inventory management, poor AI, or having an inventory of pure 20 arrow stacks.
If the games had the original and EE I’d be able to fit, what...just BG1 on my phone? That would be horrible.