After losing my latest character to STR drain effect applied by Shadows, I'm curious about the way the underlying mechanics work.
Is my observation correct that on-hit ability drain (for example Shadows, Spirit Trolls, Mind Flayers etc.) bypasses the respective PfNM/PfMW protections and/or weapon immunities? In other words, my current assumption is that PfMW, for instance, will not protect the character against Spirt Troll's stat drain.
Does this effectively mean that the only protection is not to get hit and/or keeping the relevant stat buffed above critial levels? I'm unsure whether any save v. effect is applicable in the case of various stat draining foes.
Vice versa, are you able to WIS drain a demilich with Kachicko (+3)? I'm aware that certain specific enemies are immune to stat drain effects (e.g. Mel).
However, I might get this wrong by having misinterpreted my own experience involving an interaction between a jelly form (via Polymorph: Self) and Shadow. The jelly is immune to normal weapons but at the same time is 100% resistant against piercing damage and I still didn't confirm whether in my install Shadows' weapons strike as normal of magical.
After losing my latest character to STR drain effect applied by Shadows, I'm curious about the way the underlying mechanics work.
Is my observation correct that on-hit ability drain (for example Shadows, Spirit Trolls, Mind Flayers etc.) bypasses the respective PfNM/PfMW protections and/or weapon immunities? In other words, my current assumption is that PfMW, for instance, will not protect the character against Spirt Troll's stat drain.
Does this effectively mean that the only protection is not to get hit and/or keeping the relevant stat buffed above critial levels? I'm unsure whether any save v. effect is applicable in the case of various stat draining foes.
Shadows' weapon STR drain effect has Power Level 0 (i.e. bypass weapon immunities), Dispel/Resistance: Natural/Nonmagical(0) and no save. Spirit Troll - the same PL and no save but Dispel/Resistance: Dispel/Not bypass resistance (1) Mind Flayer - I believe, they should be the same in that matter (in my install - with polytweak - their weapons do not INT drain but instead drain 25% health per hit).
So all in all yes, low AC is your best friend vs their natural weapons.
@Borco As far as I know, weapons will not apply any on-hit effects if the victim is immune to the weapon outright (e.g. PfMW, PfNW, insufficient enchantment level). They will apply on-hit effects if the hit is successful, even if the victim is immune to the weapon's damage type. I know that PfMW works against illithid brain-drain since their attacks count as magical weapons.
My guess is that you were taking hits in Mustard Jelly form that were draining your Strength, even though the hits weren't doing any damage. This means that either: A) The jelly form in your install is not immune to normal weapons after all, or B ) The Shadows' claws count as magical weapons
The spell level of an on-hit effect is only relevant if the target has spell deflection/turning/trap or GOI effects active. A +1 weapon will apply no effects whatsoever to a target that's immune to +1 weapons, whether or not the on-hit effect is level 0.
If this was not the case, then mind flayers could indeed bypass PFMW, as could SCS vampires with their CON drain ability, because both of those on-hit effects are level 0 nonmagical effects.
Okay, question from a veteran. I am looking for more ideas on coping with enchantment debuffs on the following scenario type.
Early game from level 8 to 10 with 150k XP, in closed encounter such as simple ones like the houses of Prebek, Rayic Gethras, Baron Ployer or Seven Veils (although that one is not doable at that level in IA), full party of six, mandatory area transition (so all enter or leave together). These simple fights always give me issues in noreload games as my positioning cannot be improved and I have not enough resources.
Currently I am using the following party roughly. 1 barbarian or berserker that needs no buffing. 1 druid level 10 casting 2 chaotic commands on self and protagonist (no caster). 1 thief, 1 other warrior, 2 mages That leaves three unprotected.
The protagonist is not a caster. The druid has dispel magic memorised should the chaos, confusion, command and emotion spells come out. But sometimes opponents start with a dispel magic of their own and then the druid will lose chaotic commands and is vulnerable herself. Also, it does not always dispel due to level difference making everything worse.
The mages also have dispel memorised but are level 9. At this point they have no access to spell immunity because it is hard to find in IA, so they have no real self protection from anything. A sorceress would not have level 5 spells at this point so even that is not an option yet.
Then gear, nothing of note that is easy accessible. Most of it is moved or randomised.
Potions, I may go search for potions of clarity, invulnerability, magic shielding or magic blocking but those are expensive at this point or hard to come by. Also, potions can get dispelled.
So battle starts as a mad dash for the magic user whom I know will cast the spells, debuff it and interrupt or incapacitate or kill it and then be relieved and worry about the other trash that is trying to kill my backline or midline.
Once I get 1 level 6 spell I am good because then I simply do 3xcc, wondrous recall, 3x cc, but until then I'm struggling a bit. Leveling up is a thing though. IA has its own level progression which is slower so my 150k indication is probably more like up to 300k so it takes longer to get to the mid game where thac0 and ac and spell buff debuff battles become more of a thing.
I guess ultimately I can go double druid or swap more barbarians and berserkers until I am high enough to swap in the npcs I want to have. Or postpone encounters a little bit more and travel elsewhere.
Ideas? Which spel route am I overlooking for instance?
@Iroumen is invisibility not available in IA? I tend to use that a lot in my games and hardly use other buffs at all. In my installations invisibility allows you to adjust your placement after entering and also often allows you a free round to attack, as it will trigger many mages to start casting true sight or similar - allowing you to do nasty things to them before they try any offensive spells.
@lroumen: Since I know precious little about IA, I can only give you the same frustratingly reductive advice I heard from other IA players: you need more fighters in your party. I understand that thieves are all but useless in IA unless they're Swashbucklers (though I don't think that will make a huge difference this early in the game), and a single mage or sorcerer is generally sufficient (a Berserker/Mage is supposed to be a good bet). You might make more progress on enemy mages if your party has higher APR... but I'm not really sure that's the solution for this specific problem.
Failing that, you might take a look at the Black Wyrm's Lair forums for advice. The community might not be as friendly over there, but it will have more experience on these issues than most folks around here, I think.
Failing that, you might take a look at the Black Wyrm's Lair forums for advice. The community might not be as friendly over there, but it will have more experience on these issues than most folks around here, I think.
We might want to bring a few folks from there, if someone knows them. It would help to hear from their wisdom from time to time.
Failing that, you might take a look at the Black Wyrm's Lair forums for advice. The community might not be as friendly over there, but it will have more experience on these issues than most folks around here, I think.
We might want to bring a few folks from there, if someone knows them. It would help to hear from their wisdom from time to time.
@nullset has been very helpful with his mods there.
@Grond0 ah completely overlooked. I can go search for invisibility 10'. That is a great suggestion. It will at least save a round to get initiative and disperse in those fights.
@Semiticgod true, warrior heavy are the recommended parties but against debuffs without clearing them or protecting against them it does more hurt if the warriors start to kill my own backline. My goal is to replace on the go and since it is noreload I will get many chunks in IA so I need to be somewhat flexible and capable with a less good party. For the most of it the problem is getting to a relatively safe spot where the party should be capable enough.
BWL is quiet these days. Most of the people I knew moved on already. Some posted here once in a while. What I will hear from them is to abandon these fights and go for safer ones .
*Sigh* I managed to solve the WoP problem with judicious use of the console, and headed for the Throne. Latest bug is unkillable Blizzard Trolls at the second pool though, which defy every kind of damage & vorpal, even Imprisoning the buggers doesn't get rid of them for long as they get freed when Melissan summons stuff . Very frustrating as the battles were going fine.
*Sigh* I managed to solve the WoP problem with judicious use of the console, and headed for the Throne. Latest bug is unkillable Blizzard Trolls at the second pool though, which defy every kind of damage & vorpal, even Imprisoning the buggers doesn't get rid of them for long as they get freed when Melissan summons stuff . Very frustrating as the battles were going fine.
Have you tried stat drain? That sometimes successfully kills things the game treats as otherwise unkillable - that's why stat drain needs to be used with care as it can result in your game being stuck after a required character disappears.
I had been thinking of using the UK patch since I am in the UK and was wondering which of the patches (106 or 141) I should use, the answer apparently being none of them.
If a patch has already been applied, would running the patch again cause problems? I've often wondered about that when I've been unsure as to whether or not a patch has been applied.
It should already be fully patched. Running that again is probably useless and possibly harmful I would have thought. I imagine the same applies to TotL- it's not allowing it to be installed, as it's already there.
Okay, question from a veteran.
I am looking for more ideas on coping with enchantment debuffs on the following scenario type.
Early game from level 8 to 10 with 150k XP, in closed encounter such as simple ones like the houses of Prebek, Rayic Gethras, Baron Ployer or Seven Veils (although that one is not doable at that level in IA), full party of six, mandatory area transition (so all enter or leave together).
These simple fights always give me issues in noreload games as my positioning cannot be improved and I have not enough resources.
Currently I am using the following party roughly.
1 barbarian or berserker that needs no buffing. 1 druid level 10 casting 2 chaotic commands on self and protagonist (no caster). 1 thief, 1 other warrior, 2 mages
That leaves three unprotected.
The protagonist is not a caster. The druid has dispel magic memorised should the chaos, confusion, command and emotion spells come out. But sometimes opponents start with a dispel magic of their own and then the druid will lose chaotic commands and is vulnerable herself. Also, it does not always dispel due to level difference making everything worse.
The mages also have dispel memorised but are level 9. At this point they have no access to spell immunity because it is hard to find in IA, so they have no real self protection from anything. A sorceress would not have level 5 spells at this point so even that is not an option yet.
Then gear, nothing of note that is easy accessible. Most of it is moved or randomised.
Potions, I may go search for potions of clarity, invulnerability, magic shielding or magic blocking but those are expensive at this point or hard to come by. Also, potions can get dispelled.
So battle starts as a mad dash for the magic user whom I know will cast the spells, debuff it and interrupt or incapacitate or kill it and then be relieved and worry about the other trash that is trying to kill my backline or midline.
Once I get 1 level 6 spell I am good because then I simply do 3xcc, wondrous recall, 3x cc, but until then I'm struggling a bit.
Leveling up is a thing though. IA has its own level progression which is slower so my 150k indication is probably more like up to 300k so it takes longer to get to the mid game where thac0 and ac and spell buff debuff battles become more of a thing.
I guess ultimately I can go double druid or swap more barbarians and berserkers until I am high enough to swap in the npcs I want to have.
Or postpone encounters a little bit more and travel elsewhere.
Ideas? Which spel route am I overlooking for instance?
Levels 8-10 in IA6 are crucial for making a final decision: do I even want to play this mod?!? All serious true IA fights will kill you, all the rest is basically QSave-QLoad fest (for sucessfull saves, crit hits. etc.) for example Greater Yuan-Ti fight, you buff your party, QS, and then send your fighters for Whisper Spider and there everything can go wrong, you can lose even when the spider is near death - your riskbreaker crit misses, Whisper instead of dying confuses your party members and thats it - game over. QL the model example is of course Suna Seni.
I would recommend this route: all vanilla IA quest first (fallen paladins, mae'var included) you need party level 11-13, then you need good +3 weapons - Mae'var will give you Short Sword +3, you must decline the Guild! So, you need Frostreaver from Nalia's Keep (YuanTi mage and revenge trolls is serious pain!) and FoA +3 (in IA only good because of +3 entchantment, slow ability is completely nerfed), you need Club +3 from Beastmaster, you need Lilarcor and probably something else I can't remember...then you can try Mutated Spiders sobs in the Graveyard...personaly if I can kill them without pulling my hair my answer is: yeah, I want to play this mod....probably....maybe....definietely maybe....
Weird! I reloaded my game and I could sell the pelts. I don't understand it, but I'll go with it. Sadly, the pelts were spread out among my party when I returned, so I didn't get full value for them, but that's a minor issue.
A quick question for a future challenge... Thanks to Argent77 we now have Tales of the Luremaster available for BG2. I've never played that expansion though I've no-reloaded the main game on core and parts of Heart of Winter the one time I played through IWD. Is there anything about that dungeon that would make it particularly difficult to no-reload it blind in a trilogy run? I'm mainly thinking of whether there are instadeaths from traps or dialogue choices. Would be fun to do some more unplayed content in a no-reload environment!
@Mantis37, I'm replaying the original right now (using HoF, and blind in TotL). I'm not an inexperienced Infinity Engine gamer, but I'm definitely finding the expansion hard. Not sure if I'm allowed to say this in this lounge, but I am reloading from time to time. But I can definitely offer advice to prospective no-reloaders.
There's plenty of insta-death, and near as good as, in the expansion, though not from dialogue choices. Traps tend to be damage-based, which you can resist with a Cleric using (Greater) Shield of Lathander, or simply disarm with your Thief.
The monsters are much worse than that though, and employ plenty of save-or-else tactics.
In particular,
*SPOILERS*
Beholders will lynch you in various ways, including Finger of Death (save vs. Death), Flesh to Stone (Petrification) and Disintegrate (Spell, presumably, but not checked), and other disablers/debuffs.
Crypt Things can Teleport (Spell) any character to a random place on the level, almost certainly far from the party and surrounded by horrible enemies, and they can do this without limit once every few rounds.
Harpies can cause Fear (Spell, I think) with their song (can be blocked by one of the Bard songs).
Shambling Mounds can Entangle (Spell)
potentially allowing a soloer to get fatally surrounded.
Jackal Warriors have a single-target Sleep (Spell).
The Minotaur Lord carries an axe with 25% chance of Stun (no save).
Various "adventurers" use spells, including the final boss; they're fond of debuffing with Dispel Magic.
Although the scripting is not up to SCS standards, it's still fantastic. Currently I have to rethink the hardest battles around once or twice to figure out the "trick", but definitely working on understanding the Game of Throws (i.e., Saving :P) is giving me more of an edge; one day I will retry it as a no-reload!
I was able to avoid most Crypt Thing teleportations by relying on my saves, but it was nonetheless remarkably inconsistent; I wouldn't like to rely on it no-reload.
E.g., buffed with DUHM my Gnome 18/19 Fighter/Cleric had a save vs. spell well in the negatives, something like -5, but he got teleported almost immediately, and then never again from that point. His other saves were maximum -1. My Human Fighter(13)/Cleric(24) got teleported several times, although his save was a bit higher (never below -2), and he was usually leading the charge with Three White Doves, and later when I realised his power, Turn Undead. (By the way that ability is incredible in the Watchknights' Crypt, you can simply waltz around and everything explodes. )
Moreover the teleport effect didn't seem to display a save, whether successful or not. The only warning was the blue trapdoor animation on the character, a couple of seconds before they get beamed up. Not sure what was going on, so I'd be very curious if you have a good way to test it!
In looking for how everybody looks at when reloads are accepted for a noreload run.
I have a rule that allows me to relax upon falling asleep at my keyboard since it is a side effect of medication, and since I have almost no time to play, I take the time as I can get it.
This happened twice in my bgee run so far. Once when I clicked to travel, fell asleep and woke up moments later to see I am poisoned in an ambush with 4hp left, ticking at -3hp, and no healing or antidote solutions available.
Once when I entered the cloakwood spider cave and woke up with the death message (well actually I reloaded twice there, after a reload I did the same thing and fell asleep immediately after entering again!).
Does anyone have any other allowances they impose upon themselves?
The only reloads I do are for obvious bugs in the game or mods, or if the game freezes or stops. I also make generous use of the pause button to help when getting sleepy but to be honest, as restartitis is always looming in the background, I'd probably start all over if I did fall asleep. Meds can be challenging most definitely, I hear ya, and your allowance sounds quite reasonable.
The one thing I make myself do when I allow a reload is to do the same thing over again (unless the bug kept happening).
Comments
After losing my latest character to STR drain effect applied by Shadows, I'm curious about the way the underlying mechanics work.
Is my observation correct that on-hit ability drain (for example Shadows, Spirit Trolls, Mind Flayers etc.) bypasses the respective PfNM/PfMW protections and/or weapon immunities? In other words, my current assumption is that PfMW, for instance, will not protect the character against Spirt Troll's stat drain.
Does this effectively mean that the only protection is not to get hit and/or keeping the relevant stat buffed above critial levels? I'm unsure whether any save v. effect is applicable in the case of various stat draining foes.
Vice versa, are you able to WIS drain a demilich with Kachicko (+3)? I'm aware that certain specific enemies are immune to stat drain effects (e.g. Mel).
However, I might get this wrong by having misinterpreted my own experience involving an interaction between a jelly form (via Polymorph: Self) and Shadow. The jelly is immune to normal weapons but at the same time is 100% resistant against piercing damage and I still didn't confirm whether in my install Shadows' weapons strike as normal of magical.
Many thanks for your thoughts.
Regards,
B.
Spirit Troll - the same PL and no save but Dispel/Resistance: Dispel/Not bypass resistance (1)
Mind Flayer - I believe, they should be the same in that matter (in my install - with polytweak - their weapons do not INT drain but instead drain 25% health per hit).
So all in all yes, low AC is your best friend vs their natural weapons.
As far as I know, weapons will not apply any on-hit effects if the victim is immune to the weapon outright (e.g. PfMW, PfNW, insufficient enchantment level). They will apply on-hit effects if the hit is successful, even if the victim is immune to the weapon's damage type. I know that PfMW works against illithid brain-drain since their attacks count as magical weapons.
My guess is that you were taking hits in Mustard Jelly form that were draining your Strength, even though the hits weren't doing any damage. This means that either:
A) The jelly form in your install is not immune to normal weapons after all, or
B ) The Shadows' claws count as magical weapons
I'm inclined to believe that B is the case.
If this was not the case, then mind flayers could indeed bypass PFMW, as could SCS vampires with their CON drain ability, because both of those on-hit effects are level 0 nonmagical effects.
I am looking for more ideas on coping with enchantment debuffs on the following scenario type.
Early game from level 8 to 10 with 150k XP, in closed encounter such as simple ones like the houses of Prebek, Rayic Gethras, Baron Ployer or Seven Veils (although that one is not doable at that level in IA), full party of six, mandatory area transition (so all enter or leave together).
These simple fights always give me issues in noreload games as my positioning cannot be improved and I have not enough resources.
Currently I am using the following party roughly.
1 barbarian or berserker that needs no buffing. 1 druid level 10 casting 2 chaotic commands on self and protagonist (no caster). 1 thief, 1 other warrior, 2 mages
That leaves three unprotected.
The protagonist is not a caster. The druid has dispel magic memorised should the chaos, confusion, command and emotion spells come out. But sometimes opponents start with a dispel magic of their own and then the druid will lose chaotic commands and is vulnerable herself. Also, it does not always dispel due to level difference making everything worse.
The mages also have dispel memorised but are level 9. At this point they have no access to spell immunity because it is hard to find in IA, so they have no real self protection from anything. A sorceress would not have level 5 spells at this point so even that is not an option yet.
Then gear, nothing of note that is easy accessible. Most of it is moved or randomised.
Potions, I may go search for potions of clarity, invulnerability, magic shielding or magic blocking but those are expensive at this point or hard to come by. Also, potions can get dispelled.
So battle starts as a mad dash for the magic user whom I know will cast the spells, debuff it and interrupt or incapacitate or kill it and then be relieved and worry about the other trash that is trying to kill my backline or midline.
Once I get 1 level 6 spell I am good because then I simply do 3xcc, wondrous recall, 3x cc, but until then I'm struggling a bit.
Leveling up is a thing though. IA has its own level progression which is slower so my 150k indication is probably more like up to 300k so it takes longer to get to the mid game where thac0 and ac and spell buff debuff battles become more of a thing.
I guess ultimately I can go double druid or swap more barbarians and berserkers until I am high enough to swap in the npcs I want to have.
Or postpone encounters a little bit more and travel elsewhere.
Ideas? Which spel route am I overlooking for instance?
Failing that, you might take a look at the Black Wyrm's Lair forums for advice. The community might not be as friendly over there, but it will have more experience on these issues than most folks around here, I think.
@Semiticgod true, warrior heavy are the recommended parties but against debuffs without clearing them or protecting against them it does more hurt if the warriors start to kill my own backline. My goal is to replace on the go and since it is noreload I will get many chunks in IA so I need to be somewhat flexible and capable with a less good party. For the most of it the problem is getting to a relatively safe spot where the party should be capable enough.
BWL is quiet these days. Most of the people I knew moved on already. Some posted here once in a while. What I will hear from them is to abandon these fights and go for safer ones
I would recommend this route: all vanilla IA quest first (fallen paladins, mae'var included) you need party level 11-13, then you need good +3 weapons - Mae'var will give you Short Sword +3, you must decline the Guild! So, you need Frostreaver from Nalia's Keep (YuanTi mage and revenge trolls is serious pain!)
and FoA +3 (in IA only good because of +3 entchantment, slow ability is completely nerfed), you need Club +3 from Beastmaster, you need Lilarcor and probably something else I can't remember...then you can try Mutated Spiders sobs in the Graveyard...personaly if I can kill them without pulling my hair my answer is: yeah, I want to play this mod....probably....maybe....definietely maybe....
Unless of course I dig out my original discs.
I'LL DO SOME INVESTIGATION
There's plenty of insta-death, and near as good as, in the expansion, though not from dialogue choices. Traps tend to be damage-based, which you can resist with a Cleric using (Greater) Shield of Lathander, or simply disarm with your Thief.
The monsters are much worse than that though, and employ plenty of save-or-else tactics.
In particular,
*SPOILERS*
Crypt Things can Teleport (Spell) any character to a random place on the level, almost certainly far from the party and surrounded by horrible enemies, and they can do this without limit once every few rounds.
Harpies can cause Fear (Spell, I think) with their song (can be blocked by one of the Bard songs).
Shambling Mounds can Entangle (Spell)
potentially allowing a soloer to get fatally surrounded.
Jackal Warriors have a single-target Sleep (Spell).
The Minotaur Lord carries an axe with 25% chance of Stun (no save).
Various "adventurers" use spells, including the final boss; they're fond of debuffing with Dispel Magic.
Here are my reflections on some of it.
*SPOILER*
E.g., buffed with DUHM my Gnome 18/19 Fighter/Cleric had a save vs. spell well in the negatives, something like -5, but he got teleported almost immediately, and then never again from that point. His other saves were maximum -1. My Human Fighter(13)/Cleric(24) got teleported several times, although his save was a bit higher (never below -2), and he was usually leading the charge with Three White Doves, and later when I realised his power, Turn Undead. (By the way that ability is incredible in the Watchknights' Crypt, you can simply waltz around and everything explodes.
Moreover the teleport effect didn't seem to display a save, whether successful or not. The only warning was the blue trapdoor animation on the character, a couple of seconds before they get beamed up. Not sure what was going on, so I'd be very curious if you have a good way to test it!
@semiticgod @Grond0 ??
Bah.
I've spent the last two hours modding a kit that was supposed to backstab undeads just to discover that IE doesn't follow PnP lol
Thanks!
I have a rule that allows me to relax upon falling asleep at my keyboard since it is a side effect of medication, and since I have almost no time to play, I take the time as I can get it.
This happened twice in my bgee run so far. Once when I clicked to travel, fell asleep and woke up moments later to see I am poisoned in an ambush with 4hp left, ticking at -3hp, and no healing or antidote solutions available.
Once when I entered the cloakwood spider cave and woke up with the death message (well actually I reloaded twice there, after a reload I did the same thing and fell asleep immediately after entering again!).
Does anyone have any other allowances they impose upon themselves?
The one thing I make myself do when I allow a reload is to do the same thing over again (unless the bug kept happening).