On preventing potion stacking ... I have a component for that in my tweak mod. It's pretty simple to do mechanically in the EE, and was actually included in at least one build of the 2.6 beta before player feedback got it removed. So ... mod bait.
With my component, a new instance of a potion that's already in effect refreshes its duration. Different potions with similar effects, such as potions of genius and mind focusing, do stack with each other.
On preventing potion stacking ... I have a component for that in my tweak mod. It's pretty simple to do mechanically in the EE, and was actually included in at least one build of the 2.6 beta before player feedback got it removed. So ... mod bait.
With my component, a new instance of a potion that's already in effect refreshes its duration. Different potions with similar effects, such as potions of genius and mind focusing, do stack with each other.
Excellent! That sounds perfect.
Have you considered including the Shield Amulet, and the like?
On preventing potion stacking ... I have a component for that in my tweak mod. It's pretty simple to do mechanically in the EE, and was actually included in at least one build of the 2.6 beta before player feedback got it removed. So ... mod bait.
With my component, a new instance of a potion that's already in effect refreshes its duration. Different potions with similar effects, such as potions of genius and mind focusing, do stack with each other.
Oh, and I forgot one more thing within my home rules, which is quite noticable gameplay wise:
- always use a TobEx component *Awaken On Damage* since otherwise bashing on sleeping foes without any repercussions is pretty much unrealistic and weird.
Again I like how that works in Pathfinder - you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. you automatically hit and score a critical hit. if the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save or die. otherwise they wake up and fight back.
Oh, and I forgot one more thing within my home rules, which is quite noticable gameplay wise:
- always use a TobEx component *Awaken On Damage* since otherwise bashing on sleeping foes without any repercussions is pretty much unrealistic and weird.
Agreed!
I was going to raise that when we got to spells, but it's worth discussing now, given that there's a Wand of Sleep
Also, Pro Undead would ideally work like it does in PnP. It works if and only if you don't attack. It should be like an undead specific form of invisibility, breaking under the same conditions as invisibility does in the general case. I'm not sure if that's possible, but if so that would be great.
I don't have a conscious list of rules, exactly, but I have been avoiding a lot of stuff I used to rely on heavily. It's a bit like a soft ban on things that come off as "reductive," which for me just means something that makes a complex problem into a very simple problem--unless it's a solo run, where I feel some ruthlessness is reasonable.
I'm not a WeiDU whiz like many other modders, but I can collate a bunch of suggestions into a tweaks mod. Something simple and copy-and-pasty, that would likely be installed before more sophisticated, patchy mods like SCS.
Personally, I'd like a lot of famously OP items to still exist, in a weakened form. A Protection from Magic scroll could be balanced by greatly nerfing its duration (it's basically just a long-lasting vanilla Potion of Magic Blocking), while Arrows of Detonation could have several nerfs, from removing the auto-hit to decreasing the damage to limiting the availability. But decreasing a merchant's stock of something would require a WeiDU patch method that I'm not familiar with, so I might ask @jmerry or another modder for guidance.
Some changes can't quite be implemented in the engine, like preventing players from abusing area transitions. Other changes can be implemented with side effects, like preventing item recharging at stores by making the Greenstone Amulet etc into a quest item, which would prevent recharging, but also make the item survive petrification and prevent the player from simply selling off the item for profit.
Others would only be partially doable or require very extensive patching: you could make a Protection from Undead scroll that would vanish upon casting a spell or attacking an undead creature, but that would mean patching EVERY spell in the game, and would need to be done manually if we only made hostile spells dispel the scroll.
I'd also like to include some minor buffs for overlooked items and spells, so stuff like a Potion of Infravision wouldn't solely be gold fodder, and stuff like the Halcyon Spear would be worth using.
How do y'all feel about these changes:
1. The Ring of Energy, One Gift Lost, Greenstone Amulet, Shield Amulet, Sandthief Ring, and maybe wands would be once per day items that recharge upon resting.
2. Reducing the duration of all green scrolls to 10 rounds.
3. Arrows of Detonation require an attack roll at +4 (like a ranged touch attack) and either deal 2d6 damage OR set APR to 1.
4. Items that set statistics to 18, or set AC to zero, instead give a +2 bonus and do not stack.
5. Potions of Magic Shielding only give +5 to saving throws and +25% resistances.
Naturally, a tweaks mod could be fully customizable.
Currently, the optimal play is to hoard the best items and then burn them all in one big fight. Spend the whole game scrimping and saving, and then blast Sarevok into oblivion. I think per-day items would do the most to minimize spamming.
Like the rest of you I don't use the Cloak of Algernon to charm enemies. The exception to this was in a non-violent run where I completed BG1 without killing anyone, favourite weapon - fists to reduce the chance of killing accidentally. On one occasion I killed Savarok with fists much to my annoyance! Killing Savarok at the end was a pure fluke as he was killed by a lightning bolt from a trap. Prior to that a lot of backstabs using fists weakened him a lot.
I relised that SoA could not be completed without killing enemies so stopped upon defeating Savarok. It was a very interesting run working out how to defeat bosses without killing them.
For instance to kill Davaeorn, I set off traps and then charmed him. His allies killed him for me. Some other battles were more complex.
We could alternatively nerf the cloak to make it usable in combat without being abusable out of combat. Making it cast Dire Charm once per day, which only lasts 5 rounds and will turn the target hostile if it fails or when it wears off, would prevent the standard game-breaking shenanigans, while still allowing a neat tool.
I'd like a tweaks mod to be fairly similar to how the game normally plays. Preserving the fundamentals and only limiting the reductive stuff.
The Ring of Energy, One Gift Lost, Greenstone Amulet, Shield Amulet, Sandthief Ring, and maybe wands would be once per day items that recharge upon resting.
We should follow a do no harm principle, studiously avoiding changes that over power items, or open new avenues for overuse and or exploitation.
Changing limited charge items to rechargeable items can increase the total number of charges available. That's a problem.
Reducing charge numbers, reducing wand abundance, and making the items unsellable is, in contrast, a clear and unequivocal nerf.
If you took all the limited charge items currently in the game and turned them into rechargeable ones, you'd still have more than enough fire power to beat Sarevok, and you'd have the items available for every other fight throughout the rest of the game. Limiting total charges, via wand abundance and charge number, in contrast, creates a tradeoff.
We can always bring the number down if we want to heighten that tradeoff. I floated 5. We could make it 3 or 2. Note, too, that removing the wands from stores would greatly reduce the total number available. There's aren't a ton of wands to be found in the wild.
2. Reducing the duration of all green scrolls to 10 rounds.
That's interesting, but most of the green scrolls aren't problematic. It also ends up being harsh for wizard slayers, who are already severely limited. I'd prefer to focus our attention on the problematic ones, Protection from Magic and Pro Undead, and avoid encumbering wizard slayers
Ideally, Pro Magic would be incompatible will ALL magic, including magical items, potions, and special abilities. As for Protection from Undead scrolls, ideally they would work as above, solely as a undead specific form of invisibility. This would make them defensive tools that come at an offensive cost. Alas, it may not be possible to implement as such.
Of course, the other thing we need to keep in mind with respect to Pro Magic is that Diarmid uses one in the Sarevok battle. If we nerf it we nerf him. Perhaps it's best if we just allow the player to self restrict here? I skipped Pro Magic and Pro Undead for many years. I can find the discipline again. An optional component that removes them on the player´s side would make it easier though.
4. Arrows of Detonation require an attack roll at +4 (like a ranged touch attack) and either deal 2d6 damage OR set APR to 1.
+4 is too high. Virtually nothing gets a +4 bonus in BG1. I also think that the number available is critical and needs to be addressed, as mentioned earlier. As for the APR reduction as a means of nerfing, it would be very easy to work around that. In the kiting context you usually only get one APR anyways.
5. Items that set statistics to 18, or set AC to zero, instead give a +2 bonus and do not stack.
Going back to the do no harm principle, this would overpower items in the hands of min maxers and underpowered them in the hands of those with more natural stats. I don't think this helps.
7. Potions of Magic Shielding only give +5 to saving throws and +25% resistances.
Remember that SCS enemies use Potions of Magic Shielding. Nerfing the potions would nerf them.
I intended to get to Potion of Magic Shielding in the second tier category, since I don't think they are as bad as the others.
One option would be to simply reduce the number available to the player. Change the stack sizes in stores to 1 or none.
In the alternative, there could be two classes of Potions of Magic Shielding. Perhaps Drasus and any other enemies that use them can keep theirs as is, and the ones in stores can become Potions of Lesser Magic Shielding, functioning as you've described. The one found in the stable, near Drasus, can be left as a regular Potion of Magic Shielding, so the player has access to at least one full fledged one, with an option of using it against Davaeorn or saving it for the endgame.
We could alternatively nerf the cloak to make it usable in combat without being abusable out of combat. Making it cast Dire Charm once per day, which only lasts 5 rounds and will turn the target hostile if it fails or when it wears off, would prevent the standard game-breaking shenanigans, while still allowing a neat tool.
I disallowed use of the Algernon charm ability long ago, so this wouldn't effect me personally.
It's still a nice item without the charm ability.
If one wanted to keep the charm ability in place, making it once per fight, in combat only, reducing the duration and making it a hostile act would be reasonable. I agree there.
I'd also recommend a +3 save bonus, since it's available so early. In the alternative, I'd consider moving Algernon to the Elfsong.
Ideally, Pro Magic would be incompatible will ALL magic, including magical items, potions, and special abilities.
The problem here is that non-hostile spells/abilities bypass nearly all forms of immunity when applied to the caster. The only exception I'm aware of is specific "immunity to resource X". Pro Magic works by granting immunity to spell levels 1-9; making it true immunity to everything would mean adding an absurdly large number of specific immunities to it.
Pro Magic also blocks spellcasting with 100% arcane and divine spell failure. This could be extended to block abilities and item activations by disabling a bunch of buttons ... but then there'd be no way to exempt nonmagical abilities.
If one wanted to keep the charm ability in place, making it once per fight, in combat only, reducing the duration and making it a hostile act would be reasonable. I agree there.
If you make any charm effect a hostile act, it flat out doesn't work; that initial hostile act of charming the enemy breaks the charm immediately. What you can do is tinker with what kind of charm is used; those have bearing on whether the creature gets mad at you after the charm wears off.
The problem here is that non-hostile spells/abilities bypass nearly all forms of immunity when applied to the caster. The only exception I'm aware of is specific "immunity to resource X". Pro Magic works by granting immunity to spell levels 1-9; making it true immunity to everything would mean adding an absurdly large number of specific immunities to it.
Pro Magic also blocks spellcasting with 100% arcane and divine spell failure. This could be extended to block abilities and item activations by disabling a bunch of buttons ... but then there'd be no way to exempt nonmagical abilities.
Yes. I'm aware that it's not possible to implement in that way. I had suggested as much earlier, as you may recall.
The simplest way to simulate this is to make them useable by wizard slayers only. The operative assumption being that other classes wouldn't find the tradeoff worth it.
It's an odd solution, in a sense, but it does have the merit of nerfing an over powered item without further nerfing an underpowered kit.
If you make any charm effect a hostile act, it flat out doesn't work; that initial hostile act of charming the enemy breaks the charm immediately. What you can do is tinker with what kind of charm is used; those have bearing on whether the creature gets mad at you after the charm wears off.
I was simply paraphrasing semiticgoddess's suggestion in a shortened form. Her suggestion was: 1) allow a failed attempt to turn creatures hostile; 2) to make the creature hostile after the charm wears off.
The green scroll that protects from petrification makes the basilisks a bit TOO easy.
Either make the scroll of shorter duration or nerf it in some other way. Having to use a potion of mirror eyes as well would mean that you had to be careful in that area.
Of course if the basilisks give less experience there is less need to do anything else.
I was simply paraphrasing semiticgoddess's suggestion in a shortened form. His suggestion was: 1) allow a failed attempt to turn creatures hostile; 2) to make the creature hostile after the charm wears off.
"Her" suggestion. Just a reminder.
Fair point about the APR limit. That wouldn't nerf much for kiting. I was thinking more about the potential to break the coalition camp invasion in SoD by spamming the arrows.
I'm not sure about reducing charge availability. If stores sold only one copy of Potions of Magic Shielding and wands were only available as loot and not for purchase, I personally don't think it would change my playstyle very much, or limit the biggest abuses.
If I had access to only 10 fireballs from OGL and wands for all of BG1, I'd probably just save all of them for Sarevok, and send out 60d6 damage in the final battle. I think that would be the "optimal" play. Having only 10 total charges would mostly prevent me from using them in the smaller fights, the ones where the wand is least important.
It's worth noting that nearly all of the problematic, overpowered items in BG1 are finite-charge items; not per-day items. Aside from Algernon's Cloak, the overpowered tools are all hoardable, from wand charges to scrolls to potions to ammunition.
I think it's because they aren't subject to the same per-encounter limitations as spell slots. Spell slots have never been as problematic as expendables because there's a hard limit on how much you can use in a single fight.
I'm so, so sorry. I often call myself the queen of typos. I'm sorry you had to suffer for it, lol.
NW: I fixed the typo.
Fair point about the APR limit. That wouldn't nerf much for kiting. I was thinking more about the potential to break the coalition camp invasion in SoD by spamming the arrows.
Right. I think it best to go the other way, reduce the damage and stack number. That way you cover both kiting for Sarevok and the SoD encounter. The 1 APR approach just covers one.
I'm not sure about reducing charge availability. If stores sold only one copy of Potions of Magic Shielding and wands were only available as loot and not for purchase, I personally don't think it would change my playstyle very much, or limit the biggest abuses.
It's just a matter of making the charge number small enough. We could make it one charge per wand, like the ones in Irenicus's dungeon.
In the alternative, if they were rechargeable and their availability wasn't reduced you could have 10 of so for Sarevok and also 10 for every other fight. That would trivialize every fight, not just Sarevok.
It's worth noting that nearly all of the problematic, overpowered items in BG1 are finite-charge items; not per-day items. Aside from Algernon's Cloak, the overpowered tools are all hoardable, from wand charges to scrolls to potions to ammunition.
It's because there are too many charges, too many copies, and people recharge them. And, yes, people can use them repeatedly in a single battle. Also, they are uninterruptible, have a quick activation time, and have powerful effects by BG1 standards. They need to be severely curtailed, not made available in every fight, free of charge.
I think it's because they aren't subject to the same per-encounter limitations as spell slots. Spell slots have never been as problematic as expendables because there's a hard limit on how much you can use in a single fight.
Again, you could make the number of charges one, leaving you with the same per encounter limits as your proposal, but also reduced total usage. This would be a clear unequivocal nerf relative to the original game, and relative to your proposal. And there would be no possibility of muscling your may through every encounter by activating all your items.
Making them rechargeable would address one problem while opening the door to a different type of abuse. Reducing abundance and charge number, in contrast, could address the core problem without opening new avenues. It's just a matter of getting the numbers right.
We should do the math. How many of them -exactly- are available outside of stores? Which types are they? Where are they?
I don't know exactly the count. I'm pretty sure I pick up three wands of fire, at least three wands of paralyzation, one wand of lightning, and one wand of monster summoning in a BG1 run, not counting the Wand of monster summoning in Durlag's Tower, without having to buy any. The paralyzation wands aren't available until Baldur's Gate, I think, but the wands of fire and summoning are available at level 1, in the ankheg den, ghast area near Nashkel, Beregost manor, and Ulcaster. Without buying anything, that's maybe 15 summoning charges across two wands, 30 fireballs across three wands, 25 paralyzation charges across three wands, and I think six lightning bolts in one wand.
Reduce them all to 1 charge and that's three fireballs. Do we also factor in Potions of Explosions and Oils of Fiery Burning?
You know, I think I can mod wands to scale with the user's level. A 1d6 fireball at level 1 shouldn't be too bad, though a bard would be a better wand user in that case. We could cap it at like 3d6 or 4d6 to make Fireball spell slots still useful.
I don't know exactly the count. I'm pretty sure I pick up three wands of fire, at least three wands of paralyzation, one wand of lightning, and one wand of monster summoning in a BG1 run, not counting the Wand of monster summoning in Durlag's Tower, without having to buy any.
Noted. We're going to need to be systematic here, since the numbers and locations are relevant in rendering a judgement. I'll dart over to Dudleyville and do some research.
The paralyzation wands aren't available until Baldur's Gate
There's a Wand of Paralyzation in the Black Alaric Cave.
Do we also factor in Potions of Explosions and Oils of Fiery Burning?
Yes. I intended to address those as tier two OP items, but they should be promoted to tier one and discussed now, since the total number of fire balls is relevant.
Btw, this will be a pain in the tuckus, but it's totally fine. My priest of Talos has nixed the Ravager and is ready for The Throne. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get her killed, so I don't really want to play right now. I have nothing better to do than look for wands on Dudleyville, lol
Ok. Here are the pre-BG ones, not including ToSC content. I'm not 100% certain this is right, but I think it's close
Wands:
Candlekeep: Wand of the Heavens on the practice party (Still accessible via familiar?)
Lion’s Way: Wand of Magic Missiles
Beregost: Wand of Lightning
Nashkel Mines: Wand of Frost
Lighthouse: Wand of Paralyzation
Valley of Tombs: Wand of Monster Spamming
Ulcaster School: Wand of Fire
Fishing Village: Wand of Fire
Cloakwood: Wand of Frost
Cloakwood Wyverns: Wand of Fear
Wearable Items:
Carnival: One Gift Lost
Spiderwoods: The Victor
Potions
Amazonians: Oil of Fiery Burning
Shipwreck’s Coast: Oil of Fiery Burning
Mutamin’s Garden: Potion of Explosions
Bandit Camp: Oil of Fiery Burning, Potion of Firebreath x 2
Cloakwood Mines (Hareishan): Potion of Explosions
Davaeorn's Quarter's: Potion of Explosions and Potion of Firebreath
Notes. Neither of our initial approaches would work, lol, @semiticgoddess . There are too many. Making these all rechargeable would give the player too much firepower per encounter. Even making them limited charge, one charge would arguably be a bit much.
With regards to abundance and availability, I propose the following:
Wands
Candlekeep: Wand of the Heavens on the practice party (Don't be lame...)
Lion’s Way: Wand of Magic Missiles Beregost: Wand of Lightning Nashkel Mines: Wand of Frost Lighthouse: Wand of Paralyzation
Valley of Tombs: Wand of Monster Spamming
Ulcaster School: Wand of Fire Fishing Village: Wand of Fire
Cloakwood: Wand of Frost
Cloakwood Wyverns: Wand of Fear
Wearable Items:
Carnival: One Gift Lost
Spiderwoods: The Victor
Potions:
Amazonians: Oil of Fiery Burning Shipwreck’s Coast: Oil of Fiery Burning
Mutamin’s Garden (Kirian) : Potion of Explosions
Bandit Camp: Oil of Fiery Burning , Potion of Firebreath (Keep Taurgosz's, delete other)
Cloakwood Mines (Hareishan): Potion of Explosions Davaeorn's Quarter's: Potion of Explosions and Potion of Firebreath
For non arcane characters, this would mean three item based fireballs and one Potion of Firebreath prior to Davaeorn. I think those are good numbers. Each of them would require a bit of effort to acquire.
Moving onto the wands, making them limited charge, one per would be reasonably balanced here. I'll note, too, that with the reduced numbers and the addition of level dependence the rechargeable approach could make sense. If there were, say, one of each, and they weren't super easy to acquire, or available too early, that could work. They would basically deepen a character's spell book. As for the Wands of Lightning and Paralyzation, we could put the Wand of Lightning on the Iron Throne party, and the Wand of Paralyzation on Pratt's crew.
What about nerfing the impact of each one? Ideally a spell should be stronger than a wand, so reducing the damage of an item based fireball would make sense in my opinion.
Wands of Paralyzation could stand to be nerfed. A -4 penalty is huge, a 10 round duration is fatal, and the fact that it's a stun effect will make it bypass free action in installs where free action doesn't block stun. I love them, but a wand that can kill Sarevok is unbalanced. I'd say they're the best disabler in the entire saga with the sole exception of a non-SCS Insect Plague.
A wand of missiles could stand to be buffed. At 1d4+1, the impact is tiny and they're mostly just gold fodder after level 1.
Also, should we make the items scale with level, to make them less game-breaking at level 1 and still worth using at level 5?
@Wise_Grimwald: I'm hoping the end result of the mod will still feel like the original game. While some tactics might not be as game-breaking as they used to be, I'd like for them to still work and still feel strong and impressive--just not enough to be "silver bullets" that can win fights all on their own.
If we wanted a fully balanced experience, that would probably look like Spell Revisions+Item Revisions. If we wanted a punishingly difficult experience, that would look like Improved Anvil. What the community doesn't have yet is a mod that nudges (but not forces) the player into a broader variety of strategies. A mod that lets you blow stuff up but still have enemies to play with when the smoke clears.
@Wise_Grimwald: I'm hoping the end result of the mod will still feel like the original game. While some tactics might not be as game-breaking as they used to be, I'd like for them to still work and still feel strong and impressive--just not enough to be "silver bullets" that can win fights all on their own.
If we wanted a fully balanced experience, that would probably look like Spell Revisions+Item Revisions. If we wanted a punishingly difficult experience, that would look like Improved Anvil. What the community doesn't have yet is a mod that nudges (but not forces) the player into a broader variety of strategies. A mod that lets you blow stuff up but still have enemies to play with when the smoke clears.
It's going to require a gentle touch.
It will. It looks like you are aiming at the situation where there will be just your mod plus perhaps a few NPC mods.
I am wanting to create a Cleric of Talos and would like his symbol on his shield.
I have seen a variety of symbols but these two seem to sum up the two thoughts. They are quite different.
Could somebody say which is the correct one for Baldur's Gate?
I found a good image for a follower of Moradin with a hammer on his shield and edited it to create this is the portrait but suspect that it may be wrong.
Excellent photo editing, Wise! That shield looks great!
I'm reluctant to say this, because the shield does look wonderful, but the symbol you chose is from the Elder Scrolls fantasy world. There's a Talos in Elder Scrolls, too, but he's a different dude with a different vibe.
Best of luck with you priest of Talos. I've thoroughly enjoyed mine. Borco is fan of the kit, too.
I just found another issue with Ascension v2 + SCS, @jmerry .
In earlier versions of Ascension, the side pool areas were attached to the main combat arena in the battle with Mel and the 5, as can be seen here with my bounty hunter, Alesia, engaging Abazigal near the north east pool.
In the current version the side pools are disconnected. This is a problem, because the player can just DDoor to the pools and completely stump the 5.
Can you track down the source of this behavior? That would be appreciated.
Cheers,
A.
NW: It's possible that this change was intentional, the logic being that it would prevent the player from setting up a road block at the juncture. But if the player can access them via DDoor and the Five can not it's problematic.
Comments
With my component, a new instance of a potion that's already in effect refreshes its duration. Different potions with similar effects, such as potions of genius and mind focusing, do stack with each other.
Excellent! That sounds perfect.
Have you considered including the Shield Amulet, and the like?
Yep, that sounds perfect indeed!
- always use a TobEx component *Awaken On Damage* since otherwise bashing on sleeping foes without any repercussions is pretty much unrealistic and weird.
Again I like how that works in Pathfinder - you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. you automatically hit and score a critical hit. if the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save or die. otherwise they wake up and fight back.
Agreed!
I was going to raise that when we got to spells, but it's worth discussing now, given that there's a Wand of Sleep
Also, Pro Undead would ideally work like it does in PnP. It works if and only if you don't attack. It should be like an undead specific form of invisibility, breaking under the same conditions as invisibility does in the general case. I'm not sure if that's possible, but if so that would be great.
I'm not a WeiDU whiz like many other modders, but I can collate a bunch of suggestions into a tweaks mod. Something simple and copy-and-pasty, that would likely be installed before more sophisticated, patchy mods like SCS.
Personally, I'd like a lot of famously OP items to still exist, in a weakened form. A Protection from Magic scroll could be balanced by greatly nerfing its duration (it's basically just a long-lasting vanilla Potion of Magic Blocking), while Arrows of Detonation could have several nerfs, from removing the auto-hit to decreasing the damage to limiting the availability. But decreasing a merchant's stock of something would require a WeiDU patch method that I'm not familiar with, so I might ask @jmerry or another modder for guidance.
Some changes can't quite be implemented in the engine, like preventing players from abusing area transitions. Other changes can be implemented with side effects, like preventing item recharging at stores by making the Greenstone Amulet etc into a quest item, which would prevent recharging, but also make the item survive petrification and prevent the player from simply selling off the item for profit.
Others would only be partially doable or require very extensive patching: you could make a Protection from Undead scroll that would vanish upon casting a spell or attacking an undead creature, but that would mean patching EVERY spell in the game, and would need to be done manually if we only made hostile spells dispel the scroll.
I'd also like to include some minor buffs for overlooked items and spells, so stuff like a Potion of Infravision wouldn't solely be gold fodder, and stuff like the Halcyon Spear would be worth using.
How do y'all feel about these changes:
1. The Ring of Energy, One Gift Lost, Greenstone Amulet, Shield Amulet, Sandthief Ring, and maybe wands would be once per day items that recharge upon resting.
2. Reducing the duration of all green scrolls to 10 rounds.
3. Arrows of Detonation require an attack roll at +4 (like a ranged touch attack) and either deal 2d6 damage OR set APR to 1.
4. Items that set statistics to 18, or set AC to zero, instead give a +2 bonus and do not stack.
5. Potions of Magic Shielding only give +5 to saving throws and +25% resistances.
Naturally, a tweaks mod could be fully customizable.
I relised that SoA could not be completed without killing enemies so stopped upon defeating Savarok. It was a very interesting run working out how to defeat bosses without killing them.
For instance to kill Davaeorn, I set off traps and then charmed him. His allies killed him for me. Some other battles were more complex.
I'd like a tweaks mod to be fairly similar to how the game normally plays. Preserving the fundamentals and only limiting the reductive stuff.
We should follow a do no harm principle, studiously avoiding changes that over power items, or open new avenues for overuse and or exploitation.
Changing limited charge items to rechargeable items can increase the total number of charges available. That's a problem.
Reducing charge numbers, reducing wand abundance, and making the items unsellable is, in contrast, a clear and unequivocal nerf.
If you took all the limited charge items currently in the game and turned them into rechargeable ones, you'd still have more than enough fire power to beat Sarevok, and you'd have the items available for every other fight throughout the rest of the game. Limiting total charges, via wand abundance and charge number, in contrast, creates a tradeoff.
We can always bring the number down if we want to heighten that tradeoff. I floated 5. We could make it 3 or 2. Note, too, that removing the wands from stores would greatly reduce the total number available. There's aren't a ton of wands to be found in the wild.
That's interesting, but most of the green scrolls aren't problematic. It also ends up being harsh for wizard slayers, who are already severely limited. I'd prefer to focus our attention on the problematic ones, Protection from Magic and Pro Undead, and avoid encumbering wizard slayers
Ideally, Pro Magic would be incompatible will ALL magic, including magical items, potions, and special abilities. As for Protection from Undead scrolls, ideally they would work as above, solely as a undead specific form of invisibility. This would make them defensive tools that come at an offensive cost. Alas, it may not be possible to implement as such.
Of course, the other thing we need to keep in mind with respect to Pro Magic is that Diarmid uses one in the Sarevok battle. If we nerf it we nerf him. Perhaps it's best if we just allow the player to self restrict here? I skipped Pro Magic and Pro Undead for many years. I can find the discipline again. An optional component that removes them on the player´s side would make it easier though.
+4 is too high. Virtually nothing gets a +4 bonus in BG1. I also think that the number available is critical and needs to be addressed, as mentioned earlier. As for the APR reduction as a means of nerfing, it would be very easy to work around that. In the kiting context you usually only get one APR anyways.
Going back to the do no harm principle, this would overpower items in the hands of min maxers and underpowered them in the hands of those with more natural stats. I don't think this helps.
Remember that SCS enemies use Potions of Magic Shielding. Nerfing the potions would nerf them.
I intended to get to Potion of Magic Shielding in the second tier category, since I don't think they are as bad as the others.
One option would be to simply reduce the number available to the player. Change the stack sizes in stores to 1 or none.
In the alternative, there could be two classes of Potions of Magic Shielding. Perhaps Drasus and any other enemies that use them can keep theirs as is, and the ones in stores can become Potions of Lesser Magic Shielding, functioning as you've described. The one found in the stable, near Drasus, can be left as a regular Potion of Magic Shielding, so the player has access to at least one full fledged one, with an option of using it against Davaeorn or saving it for the endgame.
Best,
A.
I disallowed use of the Algernon charm ability long ago, so this wouldn't effect me personally.
It's still a nice item without the charm ability.
If one wanted to keep the charm ability in place, making it once per fight, in combat only, reducing the duration and making it a hostile act would be reasonable. I agree there.
I'd also recommend a +3 save bonus, since it's available so early. In the alternative, I'd consider moving Algernon to the Elfsong.
The problem here is that non-hostile spells/abilities bypass nearly all forms of immunity when applied to the caster. The only exception I'm aware of is specific "immunity to resource X". Pro Magic works by granting immunity to spell levels 1-9; making it true immunity to everything would mean adding an absurdly large number of specific immunities to it.
Pro Magic also blocks spellcasting with 100% arcane and divine spell failure. This could be extended to block abilities and item activations by disabling a bunch of buttons ... but then there'd be no way to exempt nonmagical abilities.
If you make any charm effect a hostile act, it flat out doesn't work; that initial hostile act of charming the enemy breaks the charm immediately. What you can do is tinker with what kind of charm is used; those have bearing on whether the creature gets mad at you after the charm wears off.
Yes. I'm aware that it's not possible to implement in that way. I had suggested as much earlier, as you may recall.
The simplest way to simulate this is to make them useable by wizard slayers only. The operative assumption being that other classes wouldn't find the tradeoff worth it.
It's an odd solution, in a sense, but it does have the merit of nerfing an over powered item without further nerfing an underpowered kit.
I was simply paraphrasing semiticgoddess's suggestion in a shortened form. Her suggestion was: 1) allow a failed attempt to turn creatures hostile; 2) to make the creature hostile after the charm wears off.
Either make the scroll of shorter duration or nerf it in some other way. Having to use a potion of mirror eyes as well would mean that you had to be careful in that area.
Of course if the basilisks give less experience there is less need to do anything else.
Fair point about the APR limit. That wouldn't nerf much for kiting. I was thinking more about the potential to break the coalition camp invasion in SoD by spamming the arrows.
I'm not sure about reducing charge availability. If stores sold only one copy of Potions of Magic Shielding and wands were only available as loot and not for purchase, I personally don't think it would change my playstyle very much, or limit the biggest abuses.
If I had access to only 10 fireballs from OGL and wands for all of BG1, I'd probably just save all of them for Sarevok, and send out 60d6 damage in the final battle. I think that would be the "optimal" play. Having only 10 total charges would mostly prevent me from using them in the smaller fights, the ones where the wand is least important.
It's worth noting that nearly all of the problematic, overpowered items in BG1 are finite-charge items; not per-day items. Aside from Algernon's Cloak, the overpowered tools are all hoardable, from wand charges to scrolls to potions to ammunition.
I think it's because they aren't subject to the same per-encounter limitations as spell slots. Spell slots have never been as problematic as expendables because there's a hard limit on how much you can use in a single fight.
I'm so, so sorry. I often call myself the queen of typos. I'm sorry you had to suffer for it, lol.
NW: I fixed the typo.
Right. I think it best to go the other way, reduce the damage and stack number. That way you cover both kiting for Sarevok and the SoD encounter. The 1 APR approach just covers one.
It's just a matter of making the charge number small enough. We could make it one charge per wand, like the ones in Irenicus's dungeon.
In the alternative, if they were rechargeable and their availability wasn't reduced you could have 10 of so for Sarevok and also 10 for every other fight. That would trivialize every fight, not just Sarevok.
It's because there are too many charges, too many copies, and people recharge them. And, yes, people can use them repeatedly in a single battle. Also, they are uninterruptible, have a quick activation time, and have powerful effects by BG1 standards. They need to be severely curtailed, not made available in every fight, free of charge.
Again, you could make the number of charges one, leaving you with the same per encounter limits as your proposal, but also reduced total usage. This would be a clear unequivocal nerf relative to the original game, and relative to your proposal. And there would be no possibility of muscling your may through every encounter by activating all your items.
Making them rechargeable would address one problem while opening the door to a different type of abuse. Reducing abundance and charge number, in contrast, could address the core problem without opening new avenues. It's just a matter of getting the numbers right.
We should do the math. How many of them -exactly- are available outside of stores? Which types are they? Where are they?
Reduce them all to 1 charge and that's three fireballs. Do we also factor in Potions of Explosions and Oils of Fiery Burning?
Noted. We're going to need to be systematic here, since the numbers and locations are relevant in rendering a judgement. I'll dart over to Dudleyville and do some research.
There's a Wand of Paralyzation in the Black Alaric Cave.
Yes. I intended to address those as tier two OP items, but they should be promoted to tier one and discussed now, since the total number of fire balls is relevant.
Btw, this will be a pain in the tuckus, but it's totally fine. My priest of Talos has nixed the Ravager and is ready for The Throne. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get her killed, so I don't really want to play right now. I have nothing better to do than look for wands on Dudleyville, lol
Wands:
Candlekeep: Wand of the Heavens on the practice party (Still accessible via familiar?)
Lion’s Way: Wand of Magic Missiles
Beregost: Wand of Lightning
Nashkel Mines: Wand of Frost
Lighthouse: Wand of Paralyzation
Valley of Tombs: Wand of Monster Spamming
Ulcaster School: Wand of Fire
Fishing Village: Wand of Fire
Cloakwood: Wand of Frost
Cloakwood Wyverns: Wand of Fear
Wearable Items:
Carnival: One Gift Lost
Spiderwoods: The Victor
Potions
Amazonians: Oil of Fiery Burning
Shipwreck’s Coast: Oil of Fiery Burning
Mutamin’s Garden: Potion of Explosions
Bandit Camp: Oil of Fiery Burning, Potion of Firebreath x 2
Cloakwood Mines (Hareishan): Potion of Explosions
Davaeorn's Quarter's: Potion of Explosions and Potion of Firebreath
Notes. Neither of our initial approaches would work, lol, @semiticgoddess . There are too many. Making these all rechargeable would give the player too much firepower per encounter. Even making them limited charge, one charge would arguably be a bit much.
With regards to abundance and availability, I propose the following:
Wands
Candlekeep: Wand of the Heavens on the practice party (Don't be lame...)
Lion’s Way: Wand of Magic Missiles
Beregost: Wand of Lightning
Nashkel Mines: Wand of Frost
Lighthouse: Wand of Paralyzation
Valley of Tombs: Wand of Monster Spamming
Ulcaster School: Wand of Fire
Fishing Village: Wand of Fire
Cloakwood: Wand of Frost
Cloakwood Wyverns: Wand of Fear
Wearable Items:
Carnival: One Gift Lost
Spiderwoods: The Victor
Potions:
Amazonians: Oil of Fiery Burning
Shipwreck’s Coast: Oil of Fiery Burning
Mutamin’s Garden (Kirian) : Potion of Explosions
Bandit Camp: Oil of Fiery Burning , Potion of Firebreath (Keep Taurgosz's, delete other)
Cloakwood Mines (Hareishan): Potion of Explosions
Davaeorn's Quarter's: Potion of Explosions and Potion of Firebreath
For non arcane characters, this would mean three item based fireballs and one Potion of Firebreath prior to Davaeorn. I think those are good numbers. Each of them would require a bit of effort to acquire.
Moving onto the wands, making them limited charge, one per would be reasonably balanced here. I'll note, too, that with the reduced numbers and the addition of level dependence the rechargeable approach could make sense. If there were, say, one of each, and they weren't super easy to acquire, or available too early, that could work. They would basically deepen a character's spell book. As for the Wands of Lightning and Paralyzation, we could put the Wand of Lightning on the Iron Throne party, and the Wand of Paralyzation on Pratt's crew.
Wands of Paralyzation could stand to be nerfed. A -4 penalty is huge, a 10 round duration is fatal, and the fact that it's a stun effect will make it bypass free action in installs where free action doesn't block stun. I love them, but a wand that can kill Sarevok is unbalanced. I'd say they're the best disabler in the entire saga with the sole exception of a non-SCS Insect Plague.
A wand of missiles could stand to be buffed. At 1d4+1, the impact is tiny and they're mostly just gold fodder after level 1.
Also, should we make the items scale with level, to make them less game-breaking at level 1 and still worth using at level 5?
On nerfing impact. Agreed- especially with respect to the Wand of Paralyzation.
On level scaling. Agreed again.
On starting a new thread. Makes sense. You should do the honors, since this was your idea.
Cheers,
A.
@Wise_Grimwald: I'm hoping the end result of the mod will still feel like the original game. While some tactics might not be as game-breaking as they used to be, I'd like for them to still work and still feel strong and impressive--just not enough to be "silver bullets" that can win fights all on their own.
If we wanted a fully balanced experience, that would probably look like Spell Revisions+Item Revisions. If we wanted a punishingly difficult experience, that would look like Improved Anvil. What the community doesn't have yet is a mod that nudges (but not forces) the player into a broader variety of strategies. A mod that lets you blow stuff up but still have enemies to play with when the smoke clears.
It's going to require a gentle touch.
It will. It looks like you are aiming at the situation where there will be just your mod plus perhaps a few NPC mods.
I have seen a variety of symbols but these two seem to sum up the two thoughts. They are quite different.
Could somebody say which is the correct one for Baldur's Gate?
I found a good image for a follower of Moradin with a hammer on his shield and edited it to create this is the portrait but suspect that it may be wrong.
I'm reluctant to say this, because the shield does look wonderful, but the symbol you chose is from the Elder Scrolls fantasy world. There's a Talos in Elder Scrolls, too, but he's a different dude with a different vibe.
Best of luck with you priest of Talos. I've thoroughly enjoyed mine. Borco is fan of the kit, too.
Chaos prevail!
In earlier versions of Ascension, the side pool areas were attached to the main combat arena in the battle with Mel and the 5, as can be seen here with my bounty hunter, Alesia, engaging Abazigal near the north east pool.
In the current version the side pools are disconnected. This is a problem, because the player can just DDoor to the pools and completely stump the 5.
Can you track down the source of this behavior? That would be appreciated.
Cheers,
A.
NW: It's possible that this change was intentional, the logic being that it would prevent the player from setting up a road block at the juncture. But if the player can access them via DDoor and the Five can not it's problematic.