There is no excuse this time for not upgrading the models and textures in the game.

cryocore

I own the other EE's and the CE for Siege of Dragonspear.

I will not buy this EE though. That is unless the work gets put in to improve the visuals in a major way. New meshes, models, and textures. Upping the resolution and add new post-processing and shaders is not good enough.

It's time for Beamdog to let the art and graphics team show us what they've got.

BelleSorciere

@TrentOster said it would be too expensive to do this.

acidchalk

There are a metric ass ton of models that would need upgraded. And since the way the game handles models in chunks that connect at the joints he'd still have creases. Also any mods with custom models and monsters would automatically clash with newer graphics.

IndyWendieGo

I know people probably don't want the history lesson, but it can't be helped. So I apologize in advance for the TL:DR.

I definitely want to expand on what acidchalk's saying here, as it's very very relevant to what those in the stream were saying.

Backward compatibility, to me, is the major selling point of this game. If you're not heavily involved in multiplayer, you're not getting that much of a better experience aside from actual support TO the game and potentially new content (that'd be where new models and textures would come in)- in which both BioWare and Atari have completely and utterly abandoned.

Now if you're involved with multiplayer, or you've been involved with it (especially in the RP servers)? This is probably the best news to hear out of the announcement. Some of us have been kicking the can with this game for over a decade. Not because they can't afford something prettier, but because we're devoted to it. When the Master Server authentication, we felt somewhat of a problem. Then the Master Server List went down. BioWare closed the nwn.bioware forums and redirected to their main site. Then the NwN Vault at IGN. Then BioWare shut down their forums (aside from private ones for beta accesses) a little over a year ago.

Despite all of that, the community's held onto that small thread and quite frankly they deserve the easiest transition to the Enhanced Edition as possible. With backward compatibility, bug fixes, content updates, and more? I can update the modules that first got me into modding and programming. Without that, I'd have probably had just overlooked it because I don't have the time to go back through and potentially redo a lot of things that could potentially go wrong.

And I'm not trying to aim to change the OP's mind. They're very welcome to be concerned about graphics. If that's a main selling point for you, NWN:EE may not be for you. However, for those that have tried to keep the ship afloat despite everything they've incidentally got hit with and stuck by it? That's worth my 20 bucks come payday.

smeagolheart

Backward compatibility huh? What about forwards compatibility?

If Beamdog improved the graphics then new players would be drawn in and the old players turned off by the poor graphics (such as the op and myself) would not be hesitating to purchase this.

Investing in upgrading the graphics would pay for itself. Maybe it's expensive and time consuming in canada so hire some people in China or get students or solve the challenge.

BelleSorciere

No, it wouldn't pay for itself. It is literally too expensive, otherwise they'd do it. They looked into it and found it would cost Way Too Much Money to be worth it.

Watch the stream, Trent Oster addresses this. Or I guess people can just constantly repeat over and over that the graphics need to be overhauled even though we already know this isn't going to happen.

The quote was something like "It'd cost more than the GDP of a small nation."

Sarmanos

Overhauling the graphics alone would bump this up to a $60 game and turn it into a years long dev cycle requiring a team size beyond what Beamdog would be able to manage if you were to go in and modernize every NPC model, placeable model, tileset, and so on. There are hundreds of NPC models alone all of varying shapes and sizes. It's a nice wish, but it won't be practical at all for the scope of this project.

BelleSorciere

I don't think people realize just how many graphics resources would have to be updated.

megamike15

or how many mods this would break.

IndyWendieGo

BelleSorciere said:

I don't think people realize just how many graphics resources would have to be updated.

I'm surprised they had enough resources to even take on what they're doing now. I mean all things considered, the reason why it's backward compatible is because of the cost. I mean they literally said it right there in the stream. It wasn't hard to understand, either. By keeping the current community, already made content backward compatible, they're almost guaranteed sales.

Besides, people are also conveniently missing the fact that updated 'graphics' would come in new content. Meaning new patches to the game, maybe new classes or races. New models that you can choose and that would be optional, however limited in selection (until modders get a hold of it). The fact that NwN is again getting support it's desperately needed for over a decade? There's a lot of feels in the part of the NwN community I'm involved in. We simply couldn't be happier.

Soren

Oh but there is major work being done to overhaul the visuals and provide tons of new content!

The point is though - which has always been the point with NWN - that the community does this. Beamdog's job here is (in my humble opinion) first and foremost to facilitate it. And from what I've heard so far, the prospects of that look great.

To get an idea of this, you should check out the NWNQ that really epitomizes this for the old NWN. And the inclusion of shader support in the new really opens up for a whole new range of potential visual improvements.

Not to mention that the mere relaunch of the game is bound to attract a lot of new modders as well as bringing back some of the old. So all in all, even if you are just looking for a prettier NWN, there is plenty of reason to be excited.

1varangian

So what they should do for EE is upgrade the player models and equipment to modern standards.

Leave creatures and environments to their original state so the workload wouldn't become unrealistic for an EE.

Any NEW content in expansion packs could use completely new monsters and environments. So the upgrade to a new level visually would be a more gradual effort.

The game simply won't have a new life if it doesn't take an evolutionary leap. The first gen 3d graphics are simply too crude to look at.

Let's not forget NWN still exists but players have abandoned it because it looks too dated. They won't come back and new players won't be interested if the EE doesn't leap forward.

birdman076

1varangian said:

Let's not forget NWN still exists but players have abandoned it because it looks too dated. They won't come back and new players won't be interested if the EE doesn't leap forward.

The biggest abandoning happened at end of life and the dropping of support, servers, etc from Bioware. It was a natural progression with an expected outcome. The unexpected part is the life the community still has after this many years. The game became to cumbersome for most to get working on modern PC's for various reason. Graphics support and OS support being the biggest culprit which NWN:EE is going to solve. The other big one for me and ALL of the people I talk to who I played NWN with over the years is the server support. When Bioware shut down the servers no less than 3 parties jumped to host server lists. The community while being helpful, splintered things even further and it became a hassle to get to a server to play and people left yet again. If you want more people playing it has to be stupid simple. A button click to connect and automatic updates are a must in our ADD society. The eye candy is nice, but in all honesty the game always had enough depth to it to for me to overlook the eye candy.

dlux

NWN Diamond from GoG costs 8 bucks and many of us already bought it during a sale. It works perfectly fine with Windows 10 and looks exactly the same as the so called "enhanced edition". There are even community patches to fix problems with the game including multiplayer.

I don't see any reason to buy Beamdog's re-release unless they substantially improve the graphical fidelity. You could argue that a re-release would revitalize the online community, but that is a very weak argument for somebody who has little interest in multiplayer.

That all said, Beamdog does not give me and the bulk of the community a single satisfying reason to buy this in its current state. "Please be nice and pad out Beamdog's wallet just because lol" is not gonna cut it for me.

Mordaedil

Nobody is holding a gun to your head, you don't need to hold your own wallet hostage.

Jidokwon

It's still very early. I do wish that BD had put together a video showing some of the things that the toolset is capable of, though. I've seen some screenshots of pretty impressive pictures of what the GOG version was capable of. Given some time, I'm sure that we'll see more screenshots and videos of what the EE version has to offer.

Raduziel

They can improve the game appearance without changing the graphics.

One way to do so is using the skins and tilesets and placeables from Project Q and CEP.

Adding more heads to character creation would improve the way the game looks without burdening the budget.

They can add a sub-race system, a helluva improvement compared to the vanilla NWN without major problems.

And the valse goes on.

smeagolheart

So updating the graphics costs the same as the gdp of a small nation huh. How are any games ever made then? How was this game's graphics created in the first place if tile based graphics are so expensive.

It really seems like a failure of imagination or lack of motivation on Beamdogs end.

Why is it up to the community to update the graphics or other content? It costs too much for Beamdog, so people working for free can do it right. Community content is great but should not be a crutch.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Soren

The reason that it's so expensive is that there's simply so much content to update. The original NWN had a very large budget (I seem to recall it being something like BG1 and 2 combined) and on top of that there's two expansion packs.

You could of course update it selectively, but a drastic variation in fidelity would just look odd (in the same way it sometimes does when people import assets from other games). At least it's not forward and the actual gain isn't as given as it might seem.

Regarding implementing the NWNQ I think there's a lot of legal implications standing in the way of that - plus, I figure it may in some cases cause some compatibility issues (though this is just me speculating). And ultimately, people can already download the NWNQ free of charge so I'd actually rather Beamdog dedicated their resources on further enabling initiatives such as the NWNQ rather than integrating them directly.

InflatableFriend

Think of the existing NWN assets as a foundation. Currently they're working to shore up the foundation and prepare it for some serious building work later on.

The focus is on getting the codebase stable, looking at new tools and looking to empower modders, PWs and module creators. So far the team looks to be very programmy/technical in nature, not orientated toward the creation of hundreds of new assets.

The aim seems to be to bring the engine itself up to more modern standards while not breaking compatibility with existing content. The act of bringing the engine up to speed may enable more modern looking assets, but it doesn't follow that it's a wise use of funds to remake the older content.

Beamdog have been clear that moving forward from this point new assets will look different with higher polycounts and larger texture space. While they've not announced any new packs or adventures they've certainly alluded to them.

BelleSorciere

dlux said:

NWN Diamond from GoG costs 8 bucks and many of us already bought it during a sale. It works perfectly fine with Windows 10 and looks exactly the same as the so called "enhanced edition". There are even community patches to fix problems with the game including multiplayer.

It doesn't work fine for everyone on Windows 10. For example, it doesn't work fine for me. I'd rather get a new game that's compatible with modern systems than fuss with video driver versions and other stuff to make it work right on my PC.

smeagolheart said:

So updating the graphics costs the same as the gdp of a small nation huh. How are any games ever made then? How was this game's graphics created in the first place if tile based graphics are so expensive.

Well, you see, there are publishers and investers and triple A games, and there are indie developers and indie games, and one of these has lower budgets than the other, and Beamdog doesn't do triple A at this point, soooo they don't get the big budgets.

Also, Neverwinter Nights has more graphic resources than the majority of games, simply due to the sheer amount of everything added over time in patches and expansion packs.

smeagolheart said:

It really seems like a failure of imagination or lack of motivation on Beamdogs end.

Of course it does, because you want a particular feature and you're not getting it... so naturally it must be malfeasance and not budgetary/time restrictions. After all, one of those is defensible and the other isn't...so pick the one that makes you look like you have the moral high ground?

smeagolheart said:

Why is it up to the community to update the graphics or other content? It costs too much for Beamdog, so people working for free can do it right. Community content is great but should not be a crutch.

Community content is the entire point of Neverwinter Nights, though.

And it isn't up to the community to update the graphics, that's just where you're going to get graphics updates if they happen at all because Beamdog can't afford to do it.

BelleSorciere

Shandaxx said:

smeagolheart said:

So updating the graphics costs the same as the gdp of a small nation huh. How are any games ever made then? How was this game's graphics created in the first place if tile based graphics are so expensive.

It really seems like a failure of imagination or lack of motivation on Beamdogs end.

Why is it up to the community to update the graphics or other content? It costs too much for Beamdog, so people working for free can do it right. Community content is great but should not be a crutch.

More importantly I am wondering who would do the work worth of a small nation's GDP for free?

By the way could someone provide an example for such a nation? I'd like to see some numbers.
Are we talking about millions here? No, it's billions, isn't it?

Let's see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Luxembourg

Is Luxembourg small enough? So the statement is that updating the graphics of Neverwinter Nights would cost more than $50 billions?

And of course people fixate on the quote from Trent Oster in an attempt to tear it apart, rather than address the fact that updating graphics would be too expensive for Beamdog.

As far as who would update graphics for free, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim have had modders do a ton of such work free for those games, and Neverwinter Nights has already had modders do a ton of such work for free on it, so your slam dunk argument doesn't really work.

It sounds to me like some fans want a lot of expensive work for free from the developer, despite the developer having laid out explicit reasons why it's not going to happen. Instead of dealing with that reality we get this pointless back and forth that will achieve nothing.

mf2112

Shandaxx said:

smeagolheart said:

So updating the graphics costs the same as the gdp of a small nation huh. How are any games ever made then? How was this game's graphics created in the first place if tile based graphics are so expensive.

It really seems like a failure of imagination or lack of motivation on Beamdogs end.

Why is it up to the community to update the graphics or other content? It costs too much for Beamdog, so people working for free can do it right. Community content is great but should not be a crutch.

More importantly I am wondering who would do the work worth of a small nation's GDP for free?

By the way could someone provide an example for such a nation? I'd like to see some numbers.
Are we talking about millions here? No, it's billions, isn't it?

Let's see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Luxembourg

Is Luxembourg small enough? So the statement is that updating the graphics of Neverwinter Nights would cost more than $50 billions?

Tuvalu was 36 million. statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp.php

I guess it would make a difference in the price for the game. A certain number of people will buy the game at the $20 price point. A smaller number of people would buy the game at a $40 price point. It would also take longer to release.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

BelleSorciere

Shandaxx said:

@BelleSorciere

I think you are being very aggressive here. Would you please tone down your aggression a bit?

I think people have to evaluate what is more important for them, graphics or the multiplayer experience. And the multiplayer experience can very well be worth it. There is nothing wrong though with wishing for better graphics.

I think people are being very aggressive in their demands for a too-expensive graphical update. And apparently people are unable to take no for an answer. People aren't wishing for better graphics, they're demanding them and trying to pick the explanation as to why it's not possible apart. And that "people" includes you, given your aggressive commentary about GDP.

Shandaxx said:

Then think about how your posts contribute to putting a stop to the "back and forth"?

I don't want expensive work from Beamdog for free. Throughout the years I have supported them. As you can see I bought the SoD Collector's Edition and SoD normal edition to show my support.
For years I have helped Beamdog with beta testing as you can tell by my forum badges.
And I did help a little bit with translations as a volunteer.

So how much do you want to pay for the graphics overhaul you think is so necessary? Where is the money going to come from to fund it in the first place?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

BelleSorciere

Shandaxx said:

Thank you for that matter-of-fact reply. Notice the difference in this reply to accusing me of fixating on attempting to tear Trent Oster's quote apart.

Well, that happened because you fixated on Trent Oster's quote and attempted to tear it apart.

I mean if you don't want anyone to point out you're doing something, then maybe don't do it? IDK, it just seems like a logical step.

semiticgoddess

@Shandaxx @BelleSorciere: Let it go. This thread is a conversation about graphics, not a debate between two users.

Sirick

All I can say, I know that personally a bump in graphics would make me buy the game, a game I already own multiple originals of and digital versions of. Five friends who like me have sunk months, possibly years into NWN all said when I told them of the EE "Oh cool, so they are going to improve the models and stuff? No. Oh, well I'm not going to buy it then". And I've heard many people voice similar opinions here on the forums, other gaming forums, Youtube and so on.

End of the day Beamdog will do the least work for the most money, that's just how it works. But I know they are missing out on sales by not bumping up graphics in any visually striking way. If they decide those sales are not worth the cost of working on improved graphics, that's that.

But would be nice if they did. Just saying. And I think others who are just saying, are letting it known what's important to them, which surely Beamdog would want to hear, even if it's not -what- they want to hear.

mf2112

Sirick said:

All I can say, I know that personally a bump in graphics would make me buy the game, a game I already own multiple originals of and digital versions of. Five friends who like me have sunk months, possibly years into NWN all said when I told them of the EE "Oh cool, so they are going to improve the models and stuff? No. Oh, well I'm not going to buy it then". And I've heard many people voice similar opinions here on the forums, other gaming forums, Youtube and so on.

End of the day Beamdog will do the least work for the most money, that's just how it works. But I know they are missing out on sales by not bumping up graphics in any visually striking way. If they decide those sales are not worth the cost of working on improved graphics, that's that.

But would be nice if they did. Just saying. And I think others who are just saying, are letting it known what's important to them, which surely Beamdog would want to hear, even if it's not -what- they want to hear.

I don't think BeamDog has any pre-planned list of -what- they want to hear or don't want to hear. This is really a matter is simple economics and scale. I am sure BeamDog did some type of cost analysis on this versus projected time to complete versus earnings and decided that there just weren't going to be enough additional sales to cover the graphics updates versus the other things they did instead. I am quite sure that if BeamDog felt that there were going to be enough additional sales to cover the extra effort and development time that they would have done it. They aren't going to leave easy money on the table. And it won't be easy money, it would be very hard to remake all of the graphics and possibly wouldn't make enough money to cover to effort which BeamDog can't afford to do being a small company.

If BeamDog sees huge numbers of people here requesting graphics improvements then maybe the equation changes.