Think of NWN EE as Star wars force awakens as that was just an updated re-release of new hope and return of the Jedi mash up. Which it got criticized for. It pleased a lot of die hard fans of star wars but for some it's was meh. NWN EE falls in that same category some will act like it's the second coming of Christ others couldn't give a toss.
Wouldnt it be more like comparing the orginial Star Wars to the Star Wars '97 re-release.
Most casual viewers wouldnt notice the difference, but hardcore fans do.
I forgot about the 97 one that's how memorable that was but either way my point still stands
One more point, I think some people, could even take your argument further and say that the depth of NWN as an RPG already suffered because they went 3D at the time. You should take into consideration that your argument can be taken even further than you might have intended.
That position was advanced by some fans at the time, and that's a discussion worth having.
I liked the 3D because it created some gameplay benefit, not because ot looked pretty. I have yet to see another graphical advancement that creates a gameplay benefit in an RPG (unless we expand the definition of "gameplay" to include modding, in which case Bethesda's games probably win).
I think people are forgetting about all the 2D resources that most probably COULD be "enhanced" without breaking stuff. Project Q already made an excellent start to enhancing much 2D content in the game...while keeping the general graphical style of the game itself.
Personally I don't understand how reskinning tilesets in general, if done in a proper way...could actually break stuff...
Think of NWN EE as Star wars force awakens as that was just an updated re-release of new hope and return of the Jedi mash up. Which it got criticized for. It pleased a lot of die hard fans of star wars but for some it's was meh. NWN EE falls in that same category some will act like it's the second coming of Christ others couldn't give a toss.
Wouldnt it be more like comparing the orginial Star Wars to the Star Wars '97 re-release.
Most casual viewers wouldnt notice the difference, but hardcore fans do.
Well, I'm still not convinced. I am willing to believe that enhance all models would be too expensive, but why not Improve at least a few key things? Such as textures for grass, stone, and rocks. Something like that would improve the visual side enormously.
Also, there are more "cheap ways" how improve old graphics engine. My favorite is highlight edges with shadows. Practically it is the black edge around each edge on the models.
It can not be THAT expensive and all models would look MUCH better. (In addition, you have already done something similar in Baldurs Gate)
Apparently the breaking was a cosmetic and not compatibility issue.
Well, that would put them at a certain choice, not?
Keep the quality of the old and outdated graphics, so all those mods out there fall in line with the graphics, but have graphics quality stagnate, or...
Improve the graphics, thereby setting a new standard for future mods, making sure that the game as a whole still advances with the time to a certain degree.
Yes, older mods may perhaps look a little odd that way, but they should still be fully playable.
Take fsFBToon.shd, rename it as instructed, put in your override folder and enjoy! Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/f0ml0
Not quite perfect, but I see great potential (armor of the character looks MUCH better). I need only figure out how to reduce shadow only to certain objects. Thank you so much for that link.
Anyway, you've only shown what a lot of people are saying in this topic. There is more than one cheap and simple way to dramatically improve the visual side of the game.
So, what can be the excuse? Only a fool would not take advantage of such opportunitie because the game with better visuals will have a MUCH better sales.
Again you fail to comprehend the crazy amount of work that would require. This just too much content that would have to get remade, that you would have to pay someone to do, because it wouldn't be any fun to do. It'd be boring repetitive absolutely soul crushing work and to get people to do that it takes money. Also on the topic of existing community content. Have you played Everquest? It was a very old mmo, it's currently on something crazy like it's 20 somthingth expansion. Well newer expansions have new higher res modeled graphics. Some times you're in an old zone from an expansion in 2000 so you're traveling down this huge square shaped tunnel, then you hit a loading zone and it leads to a 100% smooth rounded tunnel. That is what would happen when using the plethora of existing content. None of these are excuses, they are reasons why it will not happen.
Again you fail to comprehend the crazy amount of work that would require. This just too much content that would have to get remade, that you would have to pay someone to do, because it wouldn't be any fun to do.
I'm sorry, but did you see that link? All the work is practically complete, the only problem is the limitation to certain models only. There is no hard, boring work that would take a lot of time.
Using a Cel/Toon shader will severely mess with the aesthetics of the game. It would need to be an optional feature, off by default. However, I'd love if it was included as such.
BD has added _incredible_ improvements to the engine, and we, the community, can do the rest. There is still a lot of work to be done under the hood, that won't be visible to the players directly, but it will allow builders and CC folk to make much cooler things.
Oh, and the toon shader in the link above was a quick port of something I did for 1.69, with EE it can be significantly improved, I just didn't get around to it yet. Feature requests welcome
Sorry i wasn't referring to the cell shading, although for me it doesn't really work as good as the old school sprites, i'm referring to people expecting a higher poly count
Please, join the weekly livestreams to know more, or read our recaps.
"One of the things that moved from the Input board to the Roadmap board this week is the card for updating the player character models. More than 160 people voted for this feature and we’re investigating the request." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-12-livestream-recap.html
Nobody worth playing NWN *with* cares about the dated graphics.
The intuitive connectivity and UI updates alone justify the existence of EE, and the backwards compatibility battlecry is the best sales pitch.
Yes, it's a niche product, and that niche will grow by its own word of mouth. As a "heyday" PW runner, I bought 7 copies of EE headstart and put my old world up for my existing D&D group, and all of them have shelved current games to play NWN and to build our D&D campaign world.
Honestly, I could see an argument for a massive graphical update if the single player, official campaign was the loudest sales pitch for NWN... but it's very much not. Not even a little.
The walking and running animations of NWN were fine on launch, but they changed them at some point. Especially dual wielding males looked extremely weird when moving.. and anyone carrying a greatsword/twohander look like a lumberjack.. sans the red flanel shirt.
This combined with the horrendous meshes and textures make the game very much an eyesore. This isn't the infinity engine.. early days 3D is among the absolute worst to look at, as they are so edgy, crude and blocky that it'll make anyones gag reflex twitch.. except the die hard fans of whatever game is in question.
Now this is my opinion, and maybe i am waaaay off target here. But as far as i can tell, NWN didn't have the staying power of BG1/2/IWD.. NWN is rarely mentioned as an immortal classic, and surely never even bothered to compare against it's older infinity siblings. This to me, seems as if it will be the inevitable failure of this venture.. I simply do not think they will sell enough copies of NWN:EE unless they make it look more appealing to new players, because I simply don't believe it can draw in enough folks on novelty and reminiscence alone.
As for promises of functioning multiplayer.. Beamdog are yet to fix their first EE titles when it comes to multiplayer, which is near unplayable with the plethora of bugs and errors you can encounter.. it's been out for years, and still people have to jump through hoops to have a shot at completing BG in Co-Op.
Why would anyone trust Beamdog to have NWN multiplayer working? ESPECIALLY if working MP is what is supposed to draw people in, as some suggest here..
I'm sorry if this comes across as negative and cynical, but from what I can see there is reason to be worried about this.
Having a master server again is worth the 20 dollars. Also we have a team of developers improving on the game whether it be small graphical enhancements, UI enhancements, bug fixes, and tool set enhancements.
Right now we are in the Headstart program (Beta, if you opted into it by preordering the game), with which you can help shape the future of the game with your direct input. However if you haven't opted in, you really don't have a say about the route the game is going to take and by stating you won't buy the game if this and that don't happen, should you really have a say? (Our preorder money is what is helping fund the enhancements we are getting now.
i haven't read every post in the thread (its 6 pages, i don't have the time lol) but i would like to weigh in. Graphics don't mean anything, BG:EE and BG2:EE had in layman's terms better textures and a few new areas for the new companions and some voice acting. but that's not why enough of us bought BG:EE to warrant BG2:EE etc etc. i don't recall seeing anyone saying "you need to overhaul the graphics to make this worthy of buying" NWN was fine back in the 00's and it would be fine now with slightly updated textures, overhauling would not only require doing models, it would also require resizing every single doorway in every single module and all the script triggers in the game, so its not just a graphics overhaul when you think about it.
however, I would like to see what the staff can do in the graphics area and there are things i'd like Beamdog to do like make more new characters for NWN but they aren't going to (unless they do another expansion which i'd be totally down for) but the crux of the matter is this: i'm buying these games to enjoy them and in NWN case, to relive my nostalgia of playing the online servers, i'm not buying it for the graphics.
Better graphics is always good and appreciated but compatibility and fixing the game first will prevail. I think people may be flogging a dead horse and each other over this argument. Beamdog IMO likes to do what works. What has worked in the past? Prodigal son Baldur’s gate EE. I’m sure similar conversations had back when it was announced, today graphics still look so dated, a lightbulb valve computer could run them. Over a million copies sold and still ‘chugging along nicely’ Just sayin
what's basically patching is just not going to be enough i think. BG graphics are much better and much less dated than NWN graphics. BG has an incredible visual identity and NWN has overall mediocre and mixed 3D visuals that don't stand apart even from other games of it's era (unlike BG and BG2 both of which definitely stood apart in the field of 2D graphics). BG has an "evegreen" appeal, and NWN does not. NWN has a niche following... for example when you go online to find out something about BG you generally find positive and encouraging information, that it's a classic, the best etc, and when you go online to find something about NWN there's a lot of conflicted, and incomprehensible stuff (tools, modules, haks) that's not so encouraging for an outsider.
what's basically patching is just not going to be enough i think. BG graphics are much better and much less dated than NWN graphics. BG has an incredible visual identity and NWN has overall mediocre and mixed 3D visuals that don't stand apart even from other games of it's era (unlike BG and BG2 both of which definitely stood apart in the field of 2D graphics). BG has an "evegreen" appeal, and NWN does not.
I am unconvinced though don’t get me wrong, I like BG too, just pointing out the graphics.
Now this is my opinion, and maybe i am waaaay off target here. But as far as i can tell, NWN didn't have the staying power of BG1/2/IWD.. NWN is rarely mentioned as an immortal classic, and surely never even bothered to compare against it's older infinity siblings.
The reason you are off target here can be stated in two simple words: modding community. NWN is widely recognized as an immortal classic. That's not for its original campaigns, though, but for the hundreds of high-quality original games created by its modding community using its adventure building toolset.
I simply do not think they will sell enough copies of NWN:EE unless they make it look more appealing to new players, because I simply don't believe it can draw in enough folks on novelty and reminiscence alone.
I think you're right that NWN:EE will need to bring in new players to be commercially viable. The best way to do that is with an upgraded but backward compatible engine, supported by new premium adventures with new content. The reason I'm supporting the project is because this is essentially the approach Beamdog is taking.
Why would anyone trust Beamdog to have NWN multiplayer working? ESPECIALLY if working MP is what is supposed to draw people in, as some suggest here..
Because some of the developers who built Neverwinter Nights in the first place are the ones doing it? Like NWN Project Director and Producer,Trent Oster?
Having a master server again is worth the 20 dollars. Also we have a team of developers improving on the game whether it be small graphical enhancements, UI enhancements, bug fixes, and tool set enhancements.
Right now we are in the Headstart program (Beta, if you opted into it by preordering the game), with which you can help shape the future of the game with your direct input. However if you haven't opted in, you really don't have a say about the route the game is going to take and by stating you won't buy the game if this and that don't happen, should you really have a say? (Our preorder money is what is helping fund the enhancements we are getting now.
(Just my two coppers)
I fully agree with your way of thinking, the Head-Start is just for this "buy the game - test the contents - comment and give your feedback to shape the game to its final shape" and what they are doing ... but it is clear that if most people do not understand it and useless, and it is useless to have a say and speak without having underhanded the 'Head-Start, now all the games look Divinity Original Sin etc. ... they all use this method "paid beta testing / Preorder" to ensure that not only you finance them but you also write the contents and give your contribution to improve the game!
@Khyron Times have changed compared to the early 2000s, there is no longer boxed games (some but not all of them), there is no longer that golden age of AAA games, there are no more games with 8bit graphics.
Now we are in 2018 and if you are not comfortable with this type of approach that there is with modern projects well ... that and the door, if you want to help you contribute to the project by buying the preorder, if not your voice in chapter as he said @raz651 and @Andarian they are worth nothing.
That is quite possibly the most backwards approach I have ever seen suggested.
I either get in line with all the other fanboys and pre-order another unfinished product, or silence my voice and go away so all you fanboys can praise and worship in peace?
Should not the would-be customers voice their concern and inform the makers what it would take to get them onboard..?
Now this is my opinion, and maybe i am waaaay off target here. But as far as i can tell, NWN didn't have the staying power of BG1/2/IWD.. NWN is rarely mentioned as an immortal classic, and surely never even bothered to compare against it's older infinity siblings. This to me, seems as if it will be the inevitable failure of this venture.. I simply do not think they will sell enough copies of NWN:EE unless they make it look more appealing to new players, because I simply don't believe it can draw in enough folks on novelty and reminiscence alone.
There are a couple things to consider here. First, as @Andarian pointed out, the modding community makes NWN a great option. When I told my wife about Beamdog bringing back NWN, she was excited at the idea of playing some of the old campaigns again, like Aeilund and Shadowlands. The engine itself was built to be more flexible and modifiable, which is why there was still an active community because of the persistent worlds, etc.
Also, NWN's engine was designed with multiplayer in mind; IE, not so much. Now, NWN wasn't the first game to have this -- heck, I remember playing MUDs back in the late 80s and early 90s -- and by the early aughts, multiplayer was as expected as a graphical interface.
The other thing to consider is that, by being first, Baldur's Gate revived the western cRPG. Sometimes part of greatness is kicking open a door to a new area or being a black swan that changes everything. BG fits into that well, and so it is seen with a certain historical reverence because its influence was so great. You see the same thing in other fields; Chuck Berry is so revered because of his songs AND because everyone who came after him had to know how to play a Chuck Berry riff.
Comments
I liked the 3D because it created some gameplay benefit, not because ot looked pretty. I have yet to see another graphical advancement that creates a gameplay benefit in an RPG (unless we expand the definition of "gameplay" to include modding, in which case Bethesda's games probably win).
Personally I don't understand how reskinning tilesets in general, if done in a proper way...could actually break stuff...
Take fsFBToon.shd, rename it as instructed, put in your override folder and enjoy!
Screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/f0ml0
Keep the quality of the old and outdated graphics, so all those mods out there fall in line with the graphics, but have graphics quality stagnate, or...
Improve the graphics, thereby setting a new standard for future mods, making sure that the game as a whole still advances with the time to a certain degree.
Yes, older mods may perhaps look a little odd that way, but they should still be fully playable.
Of course, that doesn't solve the cost issue.
I need only figure out how to reduce shadow only to certain objects.
Thank you so much for that link.
Anyway, you've only shown what a lot of people are saying in this topic.
There is more than one cheap and simple way to dramatically improve the visual side of the game.
So, what can be the excuse?
Only a fool would not take advantage of such opportunitie because the game with better visuals will have a MUCH better sales.
This is a new release, a release in 2018 or later. If they ship it with graphics from 2002, they'll be selling to a very niche market.
All the work is practically complete, the only problem is the limitation to certain models only.
There is no hard, boring work that would take a lot of time.
BD has added _incredible_ improvements to the engine, and we, the community, can do the rest. There is still a lot of work to be done under the hood, that won't be visible to the players directly, but it will allow builders and CC folk to make much cooler things.
Oh, and the toon shader in the link above was a quick port of something I did for 1.69, with EE it can be significantly improved, I just didn't get around to it yet. Feature requests welcome
Beamdog should hire you!
I suppose that you will not want tens of thousands of dollars to complete that project, right?
This toon shader, few better textures for trees, stones, grass, wood and game will look amazing!
There're actually steps being taken to "upgrade" the look of NWN:EE.
"Update the player character models" is in the Proposed category of the Roadmap Trello board.
https://trello.com/b/K0C0i8wF/neverwinter-nights-enhanced-edition
Please, join the weekly livestreams to know more, or read our recaps.
"One of the things that moved from the Input board to the Roadmap board this week is the card for updating the player character models. More than 160 people voted for this feature and we’re investigating the request." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-12-livestream-recap.html
"There’s a lot for us to do while we are updating character models in NWN:EE and the Head Start (although it obviously will be called otherwise) will continue long after the release." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-19-livestream-recap.html
The intuitive connectivity and UI updates alone justify the existence of EE, and the backwards compatibility battlecry is the best sales pitch.
Yes, it's a niche product, and that niche will grow by its own word of mouth. As a "heyday" PW runner, I bought 7 copies of EE headstart and put my old world up for my existing D&D group, and all of them have shelved current games to play NWN and to build our D&D campaign world.
Honestly, I could see an argument for a massive graphical update if the single player, official campaign was the loudest sales pitch for NWN... but it's very much not. Not even a little.
The walking and running animations of NWN were fine on launch, but they changed them at some point.
Especially dual wielding males looked extremely weird when moving.. and anyone carrying a greatsword/twohander look like a lumberjack.. sans the red flanel shirt.
This combined with the horrendous meshes and textures make the game very much an eyesore.
This isn't the infinity engine.. early days 3D is among the absolute worst to look at, as they are so edgy, crude and blocky that it'll make anyones gag reflex twitch.. except the die hard fans of whatever game is in question.
Now this is my opinion, and maybe i am waaaay off target here. But as far as i can tell, NWN didn't have the staying power of BG1/2/IWD.. NWN is rarely mentioned as an immortal classic, and surely never even bothered to compare against it's older infinity siblings. This to me, seems as if it will be the inevitable failure of this venture.. I simply do not think they will sell enough copies of NWN:EE unless they make it look more appealing to new players, because I simply don't believe it can draw in enough folks on novelty and reminiscence alone.
As for promises of functioning multiplayer.. Beamdog are yet to fix their first EE titles when it comes to multiplayer, which is near unplayable with the plethora of bugs and errors you can encounter.. it's been out for years, and still people have to jump through hoops to have a shot at completing BG in Co-Op.
Why would anyone trust Beamdog to have NWN multiplayer working? ESPECIALLY if working MP is what is supposed to draw people in, as some suggest here..
I'm sorry if this comes across as negative and cynical, but from what I can see there is reason to be worried about this.
Right now we are in the Headstart program (Beta, if you opted into it by preordering the game), with which you can help shape the future of the game with your direct input. However if you haven't opted in, you really don't have a say about the route the game is going to take and by stating you won't buy the game if this and that don't happen, should you really have a say? (Our preorder money is what is helping fund the enhancements we are getting now.
(Just my two coppers)
Graphics don't mean anything, BG:EE and BG2:EE had in layman's terms better textures and a few new areas for the new companions and some voice acting. but that's not why enough of us bought BG:EE to warrant BG2:EE etc etc. i don't recall seeing anyone saying "you need to overhaul the graphics to make this worthy of buying" NWN was fine back in the 00's and it would be fine now with slightly updated textures, overhauling would not only require doing models, it would also require resizing every single doorway in every single module and all the script triggers in the game, so its not just a graphics overhaul when you think about it.
however, I would like to see what the staff can do in the graphics area and there are things i'd like Beamdog to do like make more new characters for NWN but they aren't going to (unless they do another expansion which i'd be totally down for) but the crux of the matter is this: i'm buying these games to enjoy them and in NWN case, to relive my nostalgia of playing the online servers, i'm not buying it for the graphics.
Gameplay > graphics
Just sayin
BG graphics are much better and much less dated than NWN graphics. BG has an incredible visual identity and NWN has overall mediocre and mixed 3D visuals that don't stand apart even from other games of it's era (unlike BG and BG2 both of which definitely stood apart in the field of 2D graphics). BG has an "evegreen" appeal, and NWN does not. NWN has a niche following... for example when you go online to find out something about BG you generally find positive and encouraging information, that it's a classic, the best etc, and when you go online to find something about NWN there's a lot of conflicted, and incomprehensible stuff (tools, modules, haks) that's not so encouraging for an outsider.
@Khyron Times have changed compared to the early 2000s, there is no longer boxed games (some but not all of them), there is no longer that golden age of AAA games, there are no more games with 8bit graphics.
Now we are in 2018 and if you are not comfortable with this type of approach that there is with modern projects well ... that and the door, if you want to help you contribute to the project by buying the preorder, if not your voice in chapter as he said @raz651 and @Andarian they are worth nothing.
I either get in line with all the other fanboys and pre-order another unfinished product, or silence my voice and go away so all you fanboys can praise and worship in peace?
Should not the would-be customers voice their concern and inform the makers what it would take to get them onboard..?
Also, NWN's engine was designed with multiplayer in mind; IE, not so much. Now, NWN wasn't the first game to have this -- heck, I remember playing MUDs back in the late 80s and early 90s -- and by the early aughts, multiplayer was as expected as a graphical interface.
The other thing to consider is that, by being first, Baldur's Gate revived the western cRPG. Sometimes part of greatness is kicking open a door to a new area or being a black swan that changes everything. BG fits into that well, and so it is seen with a certain historical reverence because its influence was so great. You see the same thing in other fields; Chuck Berry is so revered because of his songs AND because everyone who came after him had to know how to play a Chuck Berry riff.