You people still don't get it. Each piece of armor is made up of 2 fists 2 forearms 2 biceps 2 shoulders a neck a chest a pelvis a belt 2 thighs 2 shins and two feet. Now multiply that by every single type of armor in the game. Each type of armor has several different meshes and skins per individual body part. When i say a metric ass ton of work i am very much understating it. When i got around to making odd shaped custom races back in the day i was confronted by a massive amount of incredibly mind numbing, tedious work in order to shape each existing piece into the shape of my odd shaped pc race so that he could wear all of the vanilla armor. Just trust me it's a retarded amount of work that would cost a retarded amount of time and money.
So change the system so that an upgraded armor is one fixed piece.
I don't care about that level of customization since you whatever you do, it will still look like 2002.
If you're still playing NwN because of the graphics, go play Skyrim.
Beamdog, from what I can tell, can't even compete with big names like EA (who, by the way would probably release graphics improvement DLCs into a million different packages and make you pay .99cents for each one), so they take cult classics like NwN, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and improve them and bring them into the modern age while keeping as much of the integrity of the game as possible. It's like people who dub Laurel and Hardy movies, or improve Star Wars 4/5/6 graphics from their original versions into HD. It's like people who take the time to take VHS movie and turn it into a DvD version so more people can enjoy a great movie...
If they say they cannot afford to improve NwN graphics- well, you can provide them with enough sales that it becomes financially feasible to do so, or, learn to mod yourself and create stellar graphics yourself as overrides.
Personally, I am buying the head start due to it addressing numerous bugs and the return of server support. I can worry about graphics after dumping the workload on modders.
Backwards compatibility is important, yes. But imagine a new or returning player who looks at the EE screenshots and dismisses the game because it looks so dated. What's the content creators' work worth if only a handful of hard core old timers play with it on some dusty PW with 12 people? We need to think bigger and future proof this game.
And those potential players do exist in abundance. I can't get my friends to even try NWN with me because of the way it looks.
So what I'm hoping for is that the game will remain backwards compatible, but also introduce updated visuals in future official expansions. And that any new content that would be created for the EE could be on a next level visually. Don't know if it's possible but hope so.
So what I'm hoping for is that the game will remain backwards compatible, but also introduce updated visuals in future official expansions. And that any new content that would be created for the EE could be on a next level visually. Don't know if it's possible but hope so.
It's pretty much been discussed on the stream and this thread that that's how it's already happening. There's no ETA or roadmap, but visual enhancements via new models would come with new content- which would not edit or replace existing ones.
Asking for upgrades to textures and models is not at all antithetical to what the original game was. NWN1 had good graphics for the time it was released back in 2003. Stop pretending you are a bigger NWN fan than anyone else just because you are willing to throw away 20/40 dollars at Beamdog because they put managed to put an "Enhanced Edition" label on the NWN1 Diamond cover.
I can certainly sympathize if they don't have the budget, but to pretend like it is against the spirit of NWN1 is utterly ridiculous.
Personally, I am buying the head start due to it addressing numerous bugs and the return of server support. I can worry about graphics after dumping the workload on modders.
There are already community patches for NWN Diamond that fix bugs and multiplayer. There are also already mods to improve character models. That said, what is Beamdog giving us that the community does not already offer? Answer: A new NWN logo, which nobody needs, and a higher price tag, which nobody wants
Beamdog and their superfans really should take the criticism seriously. This kind of business model is really hurting their brand and reputation.
So bored of these conversations. There is never any appreciation for what has or is planned to be delivered when developers bring back classic games. People are never satisfied and always want more.
I am deeply grateful to everyone at Beamdog for making this happen especially when I thought it never would! All the whining on the internet about price, features and compatibility is just so disrespectful and sometimes lacking in complete logic.
If NWN got a complete graphical overhaul it would cease to be NWN. The game would loose it's charm and the nostalgic love would be lost. A complete remaster with new graphics is NWN 3 and that is an unreasonable expectation and also a deviation from what this is supposed to be. I want the classic game fixed, with a little bit of polish here and there. The way NWN looks is a big part of why I feel nostalgic about the game and keep coming back to it.
I'm open to new graphic sets as long as they are way down on the priority list and they are optional.
Personally I am happy to have given them my money just to make the game more stable, 64bit, running on Windows 10 without issue, 4K support and fixing the Multiplayer Browser. They have done all this already and they haven't even started!
Appreciate what they are doing and respect what we have.
you vvanna knovv vvhy people prefer this game to 2 modding vvise. it's easier to use the tool set. if they made it like 2 graphics vvise it vvould basically kill the reason people love this game.
After reading this thread I don't think it was just because the game stopped being supported that people stopped playing NWN. There is certainly an autistic charm to those who don't want to live in the present day of gaming instead of the past.
I purchased the NWN EE because truely this game is endless on how much content you can play, with all the modules and addons.Also i know Beamdog will continue to improve it and make it better with patches and content(really hope you guys create some modules!!!) Plus the game is FUN....thats really what you are trying to get when you purchase any game. I know i wouldnt spend any money on a game that i thought would not entertain me.Plus i love Forgotten Realms D&D this game brings it to life!!!!
That's just one of few I managed to discover... no truform vs truform. Keep in mind character model was ALL THE SAME! What's different then? Mesh density is improved and curved a little according to embedded algorithm in the technique. Why it wasn't widely used in NWN? Because ... See barrels? Texture can't stretch over widened model and some artifacts appear. Now then recreating Truform functionality (n-patches) over vertex shaders or on tessellation units in any decent accelerator (DX11 compatible) does not cost a GDP of small country (not even near). Texture artwork would cost a lot, that's sure. But also... there aren't as many resources to update as you were led to believe since most textures are reused (see wooden elements, debris etc. etc.) so updating one will automatically improve quality of many, many objects in game. Now then parallax mapping and tessellation can utilize basically same resource (height maps) while this is similar to bump maps. Don't know if those were used in NWN (bump maps) but even without those it would be fairly simple to make floor textures more vivid with parallax mapping and creating height map for most floor materials should be fairly simple (like making joints between tiles or bricks deeper).
As for twitch stream, just download ReShade and experiment with those shaders in your diamond editions - you'll have similar results for ABSOLUTELY FREE. What's wrong in expecting some REAL kind of improvement over what we already can achieve?
@Shandaxx - just look at those gifs ... look at the floor. There are floor tiles there, right? Now you don't touch texture AT ALL, you just create heightmap and apply shader (parallax mapping) to that part of scene. What is the result? Joints between them looks deeper. Same thing can be done with carts... make joints between woodblocks look like real rifts. There are plenty of techniques which can be used to improve visual side of the game without breaking compatibility with mods and modules.
I see the same arguments I've seen when BG:EE was released.
Mods do exactly the same thing, but you don't have to pay for them.
But just like BG:EE, this is only the beginning.
Where BG:EE is now compared to when it was released is miles away from what any modder could have done. I think the same will happen with NWN:EE
No one is forcing anyone from buying this game. Graphics are turn off? Guess what. Don't buy it. Wait a year or two to see they improved.
This game is clearly being marketed towards an already established community. A community I didn't realize what as big as it is. Beamdog knew about them though, knew that they were being overlooked and stepped in to support them.
This is what this release is. It is a new patch to version 1.67. If you're happy with the way the game plays now, by all means, play vanilla NWN. If you want continued support and a dedicated master server then switch over to the EE.
@Promilus You don't touch the texture, just make new textures?
Expect new shaders to be incoming. The engine changes so far mean global and material shaders are perfectly viable and will be developed. It'd be nice to get more documentation on the shader system and some more examples, hopefully soon.
I'm not convinced it'd be worth the effort to give a visual overhaul to all the existing content though. Even just making heightmaps would be a lengthy process and given the hand-drawn textures that exist I don't doubt it'd be a pain in the butt to make it look even half-assed.
In the cool new stuff vs rehashed old stuff I personally err toward the new.
"Where BG:EE is now compared to when it was released is miles away from what any modder could have done" so basically what exactly do you mean by that? Most hardcoded limitations (like songlist, dual class/ racial limitations, kit number etc.) were already removed by TOBEx ... and BG1 part of the game was running quite nicely in both TuTu and BGT. If you have valid argument then use it. If not... why bother posting? I didn't buy BG EE because it'd give me near nothing. I did buy IWD:EE because that way I was able to play IDWinBG2-style game but bug free. But keep in mind the reason for that was simply because IWD in BG2 mod was left unfinished and with more or less buggy content. Other than that IWD:EE offers just a little more than IWD in BG2.
So, yes. You touch the texture. You're adding a new texture map based on/created from on the existing ones.
As it time and resource consuming? To do well, yes.
In its simplest form you've still got to get your artists to sit down and go through each file and paint all of the height information and make the needed height/normal maps. Might be simplish for some, a right pain for others. Either way it'd suck down a lot of time/money for a result that in all likelihood wouldn't look that great. Even though there's a lot of texture re-use there's still a phenomenal amount of them.
New art assets made with modern techniques on the other hand will really benifit from having the shaders in place though because all of the relevent maps can be baked out during the assets creation.
I own the other EE's and the CE for Siege of Dragonspear.
I will not buy this EE though. That is unless the work gets put in to improve the visuals in a major way. New meshes, models, and textures. Upping the resolution and add new post-processing and shaders is not good enough.
It's time for Beamdog to let the art and graphics team show us what they've got.
As an administrator I am very happy to just get the master server and server list populated again. Any content is candy. There are lots of community models and other resources available and hopefully some fo that stuff can get packaged into the release. Expecting a full rebuild of (what, took bioware with a AAA budget 3 years to get to release) yer asking for a couple million dollars in payroll alone and those artists would all need desks and not so cheap machines to sit and toil over. i am hoping that some of cep and prc gets added in, that could include a dozen or more tilesets and around a thousand new pallet items like armor models, weapons, placeables and creature models. I don't know if they are ready to just donate all the hard work to a title that has a price tag on it. So like I said at the beginning, anything is candy, i just want the game to be complete again. it's been broken for almost a half a decade.
"Where BG:EE is now compared to when it was released is miles away from what any modder could have done" so basically what exactly do you mean by that? Most hardcoded limitations (like songlist, dual class/ racial limitations, kit number etc.) were already removed by TOBEx ... and BG1 part of the game was running quite nicely in both TuTu and BGT. If you have valid argument then use it. If not... why bother posting? I didn't buy BG EE because it'd give me near nothing. I did buy IWD:EE because that way I was able to play IDWinBG2-style game but bug free. But keep in mind the reason for that was simply because IWD in BG2 mod was left unfinished and with more or less buggy content. Other than that IWD:EE offers just a little more than IWD in BG2.
If you are happy with the patch work job TuTu and BGT provide you when playing BG, then all is well for you. The Enhanced Edition with its rehauled engine from scratch for easier modability, soon to be 64 bit support, new kits and working out of the box experience doesn't need to be purchased. All of this was patched in over the five years since its release.
Enhanced Editions from Beamdog are works in progress. As @Chris_theViking said, just having a master server and server list is enough for an already established community. More time and work will be put into the title as the community tells Beamdog what they want.
Beamdog, and its very small dedicated team to this title, will slowly work in changes over the months to improve the experience. If enough people gripe about the graphics, they'll focus their time on them, but it will be a slow build and will not happen over night.
No one is telling you to purchase the game right now. You can wait, you can continue playing 1.67, if you even play the game anymore. Maybe they'll tempt you later with a sale and better graphics a year or two from now. If so, see you then, all the established communities will be waiting.
So, yes. You touch the texture. You're adding a new texture map based on/created from on the existing ones.
As it time and resource consuming? To do well, yes.
In its simplest form you've still got to get your artists to sit down and go through each file and paint all of the height information and make the needed height/normal maps. Might be simplish for some, a right pain for others. Either way it'd suck down a lot of time/money for a result that in all likelihood wouldn't look that great. Even though there's a lot of texture re-use there's still a phenomenal amount of them.
New art assets made with modern techniques on the other hand will really benifit from having the shaders in place though because all of the relevent maps can be baked out during the assets creation.
And that's why there are NEW games there with price tag around 20$ which looks way better than NWN ... guess those guys don't know how to earn money... or maybe they do
all of the relevent maps can be baked out during the assets creation.
And that's why there are NEW games there with price tag around 20$ which looks way better than NWN ... guess those guys don't know how to earn money... or maybe they do
NWN isn't a new $20 game, though. It's a $50 game with two $30 expansions with a commensurate amount of graphic resources. Sure, they're dated, but you're looking at a significant amount of work to update these to the standards you want, in addition to such updating possibly breaking compatibility with older mods.
NWN isn't a new $20 game, though. It's a $50 game with two $30 expansions with a commensurate amount of graphic resources. Sure, they're dated, but you're looking at a significant amount of work to update these to the standards you want, in addition to such updating possibly breaking compatibility with older mods.
Maybe explain me how ANY of the techniques I mentioned would break compatibility with older mods. BTW I do own diamond edition, I ask what exactly in EE is worth spending 19$ ... now is there any person here which would address this question of potential customer?
Sorry for being a bit off topic here and trying to lighten the mood a bit, but every time I come to the forum and see this thread title, I keep hearing Threepio from the beginning of Star Wars Episode IV saying "There'll be no escape for the Princess this time."
Wildly off-topic: KOTOR:EE would be just as awesome as NWN:EE. How about it Beamdog? Put it on your back-burner?
Comments
Beamdog, from what I can tell, can't even compete with big names like EA (who, by the way would probably release graphics improvement DLCs into a million different packages and make you pay .99cents for each one), so they take cult classics like NwN, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and improve them and bring them into the modern age while keeping as much of the integrity of the game as possible. It's like people who dub Laurel and Hardy movies, or improve Star Wars 4/5/6 graphics from their original versions into HD. It's like people who take the time to take VHS movie and turn it into a DvD version so more people can enjoy a great movie...
If they say they cannot afford to improve NwN graphics- well, you can provide them with enough sales that it becomes financially feasible to do so, or, learn to mod yourself and create stellar graphics yourself as overrides.
Personally, I am buying the head start due to it addressing numerous bugs and the return of server support. I can worry about graphics after dumping the workload on modders.
And those potential players do exist in abundance. I can't get my friends to even try NWN with me because of the way it looks.
So what I'm hoping for is that the game will remain backwards compatible, but also introduce updated visuals in future official expansions. And that any new content that would be created for the EE could be on a next level visually. Don't know if it's possible but hope so.
I can certainly sympathize if they don't have the budget, but to pretend like it is against the spirit of NWN1 is utterly ridiculous.
There are already community patches for NWN Diamond that fix bugs and multiplayer. There are also already mods to improve character models. That said, what is Beamdog giving us that the community does not already offer? Answer: A new NWN logo, which nobody needs, and a higher price tag, which nobody wants
Beamdog and their superfans really should take the criticism seriously. This kind of business model is really hurting their brand and reputation.
I am deeply grateful to everyone at Beamdog for making this happen especially when I thought it never would! All the whining on the internet about price, features and compatibility is just so disrespectful and sometimes lacking in complete logic.
If NWN got a complete graphical overhaul it would cease to be NWN. The game would loose it's charm and the nostalgic love would be lost. A complete remaster with new graphics is NWN 3 and that is an unreasonable expectation and also a deviation from what this is supposed to be. I want the classic game fixed, with a little bit of polish here and there. The way NWN looks is a big part of why I feel nostalgic about the game and keep coming back to it.
I'm open to new graphic sets as long as they are way down on the priority list and they are optional.
Personally I am happy to have given them my money just to make the game more stable, 64bit, running on Windows 10 without issue, 4K support and fixing the Multiplayer Browser. They have done all this already and they haven't even started!
Appreciate what they are doing and respect what we have.
Every concern is a valid one, and players sharing their concerns is always appreciated.
That's just one of few I managed to discover... no truform vs truform. Keep in mind character model was ALL THE SAME! What's different then? Mesh density is improved and curved a little according to embedded algorithm in the technique. Why it wasn't widely used in NWN? Because ...
See barrels? Texture can't stretch over widened model and some artifacts appear. Now then recreating Truform functionality (n-patches) over vertex shaders or on tessellation units in any decent accelerator (DX11 compatible) does not cost a GDP of small country (not even near). Texture artwork would cost a lot, that's sure. But also... there aren't as many resources to update as you were led to believe since most textures are reused (see wooden elements, debris etc. etc.) so updating one will automatically improve quality of many, many objects in game. Now then parallax mapping and tessellation can utilize basically same resource (height maps) while this is similar to bump maps. Don't know if those were used in NWN (bump maps) but even without those it would be fairly simple to make floor textures more vivid with parallax mapping and creating height map for most floor materials should be fairly simple (like making joints between tiles or bricks deeper).
As for twitch stream, just download ReShade and experiment with those shaders in your diamond editions - you'll have similar results for ABSOLUTELY FREE. What's wrong in expecting some REAL kind of improvement over what we already can achieve?
Mods do exactly the same thing, but you don't have to pay for them.
But just like BG:EE, this is only the beginning.
Where BG:EE is now compared to when it was released is miles away from what any modder could have done. I think the same will happen with NWN:EE
No one is forcing anyone from buying this game. Graphics are turn off? Guess what. Don't buy it. Wait a year or two to see they improved.
This game is clearly being marketed towards an already established community. A community I didn't realize what as big as it is. Beamdog knew about them though, knew that they were being overlooked and stepped in to support them.
This is what this release is. It is a new patch to version 1.67. If you're happy with the way the game plays now, by all means, play vanilla NWN. If you want continued support and a dedicated master server then switch over to the EE.
Expect new shaders to be incoming. The engine changes so far mean global and material shaders are perfectly viable and will be developed. It'd be nice to get more documentation on the shader system and some more examples, hopefully soon.
I'm not convinced it'd be worth the effort to give a visual overhaul to all the existing content though. Even just making heightmaps would be a lengthy process and given the hand-drawn textures that exist I don't doubt it'd be a pain in the butt to make it look even half-assed.
In the cool new stuff vs rehashed old stuff I personally err toward the new.
"You don't touch the texture, just make new textures?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_mapping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_occlusion_mapping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heightmap
http://s9.zetaboards.com/Ultimate3D_community/topic/7080804/1/
Is it so time & resources consuming process? I'd love honest answer.
As it time and resource consuming? To do well, yes.
In its simplest form you've still got to get your artists to sit down and go through each file and paint all of the height information and make the needed height/normal maps. Might be simplish for some, a right pain for others. Either way it'd suck down a lot of time/money for a result that in all likelihood wouldn't look that great. Even though there's a lot of texture re-use there's still a phenomenal amount of them.
New art assets made with modern techniques on the other hand will really benifit from having the shaders in place though because all of the relevent maps can be baked out during the assets creation.
So like I said at the beginning, anything is candy, i just want the game to be complete again. it's been broken for almost a half a decade.
Enhanced Editions from Beamdog are works in progress. As @Chris_theViking said, just having a master server and server list is enough for an already established community. More time and work will be put into the title as the community tells Beamdog what they want.
Beamdog, and its very small dedicated team to this title, will slowly work in changes over the months to improve the experience. If enough people gripe about the graphics, they'll focus their time on them, but it will be a slow build and will not happen over night.
No one is telling you to purchase the game right now. You can wait, you can continue playing 1.67, if you even play the game anymore. Maybe they'll tempt you later with a sale and better graphics a year or two from now. If so, see you then, all the established communities will be waiting.
NWN isn't a new $20 game, though. It's a $50 game with two $30 expansions with a commensurate amount of graphic resources. Sure, they're dated, but you're looking at a significant amount of work to update these to the standards you want, in addition to such updating possibly breaking compatibility with older mods.
Wildly off-topic: KOTOR:EE would be just as awesome as NWN:EE. How about it Beamdog? Put it on your back-burner?