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Just can't enjoy Siege

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Comments

  • lefreutlefreut Member Posts: 1,216
    edited June 2

    Even with it's (very minor flaws) Siege of Dragonspear felt very necessary and the right move for a "sequel" for one simple reason: ever since Baldur's Gate 2 came out, the transition from defeating Sarevok to ending up in a cage in the dungeon of Irenicus felt completely random and out of the blue. The saga NEEDED a bridge to make it perhaps THE most epic RPG saga of all time. And it also added another 25-30 hours onto a full-play. Now, when one sits down and makes a new character and walks in a circle around Candlekeep, if they intend on experiencing most of the content with that character, they are looking at the possibility of a 250 hour quest.

    I really don't see how SoD made the transition better. You can still completely avoid Minsc or Jaheira in BG1 and SoD and it still make no sense for them to be in Irenicus dungeon with you. Depending on your party composition, you will be forced to have Safana in your party during SoD prologue which is illogical. None of the things you do in SoD matters as there is no references to them in BG2 (because obviously BG2 was released before and no new SoD contents have been added to it).

    There are too many ways to play BG1 and now SoD to be able to have an explanation as to why you end up captured by Irenicus during the transition between the games. And in this case, I think it's best no to try to explain anything so the player can create its own story depending on its party composition and how (s)he played.

    SoD is nice but it should not have tried to explain something that can't be explained. And it should not have added new story plot holes (soultaker quest @ThacoBell ;) ). In my opinion, a standalone adventure would have been much better.

    UnderstandMouseMagicQuartzPermidion_Stark
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,613
    @lefreut Beamdog can't change content in the original games. The canon party of Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen is ALWAYS going to be the case when srtarting BG2. THere is no getting around it. SoD at least gives SOME justification for why these characters come with you at the end of SoD (All of them having story reasons for following ANY charname). As for Safana showing up. It makes perfect sense for the Dukes to hire her in the event of your party missing a thief. I don't see how thats a plot hole at all.

    tbone1Shadowdemon
  • lefreutlefreut Member Posts: 1,216
    ThacoBell said:

    As for Safana showing up. It makes perfect sense for the Dukes to hire her in the event of your party missing a thief. I don't see how thats a plot hole at all.

    The party is missing a thief only because Beamdog choose to remove Imoen. I'm fine with not having Imoen during the crusade but I don't understand why they decide that you can't have her at the beginning.

    I only played SoD once (mostly because it's not translated in my language but it's out of topic) and it's been a while so I may not remember correctly but I think that when you start, Safana is forced into your party and you don't even get any dialogue or explanation.

    QuartzPermidion_Stark
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,613
    @leufreut
    Imoen has started her mage training and doesn't have her thief skills. While I personally wish they let you keep Imoen for the intro, it makes sense within the story as written. Safana is also the logical choice for the Dukes to hire for your expedition. Montaron is Zhentarim and dangerously violent, while Alora is too carefree to trust to a sensitive mission. Unless I'm missing a thief, that leaves Safana. Who is neutral and is probably used to doing thiefy things for coin.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,362
    ThacoBell said:

    Unless I'm missing a thief, that leaves Safana. Who is neutral and is probably used to doing thiefy things for coin.

    @ThacoBell - Coran, Skie, Tiax

    ThacoBellQuartz
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,173
    ThacoBell said:

    @leufreut
    Imoen has started her mage training and doesn't have her thief skills. While I personally wish they let you keep Imoen for the intro, it makes sense within the story as written. Safana is also the logical choice for the Dukes to hire for your expedition. Montaron is Zhentarim and dangerously violent, while Alora is too carefree to trust to a sensitive mission. Unless I'm missing a thief, that leaves Safana. Who is neutral and is probably used to doing thiefy things for coin.

    theres a 4 week time skip after the intro dungeon so she should have been able to be with us during that. just say she started her training after.

    lefreutThacoBellsemiticgodQuartz
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,117
    edited June 2
    The whole "Imoen started her mage training so she can't thieve" is utter nonsense. It's only is a thing because of the rules of D&D.

    I wrote a storied playthrough with charname dualing. I'm not a writer, have no experience writing and managed to come up with a better and more plausible reason for why a character or NPC can no longer thieve. They were seriously injured in a fight so simply couldn't perform the tasks until they healed and therefore did something else.

    Kind of straightforward and pretty much based on realism, people take time to rehabilitate after serious injury. In the meantime they do/learn what they can or something else.

    If you are going to have rules that make a story senseless, adapt the story. They had the stupid poisoning but not poisoning incident in the palace, hey presto, the poison left her somewhat paralised, no thief skills until she fully recovers. In the meantime, she learns magic, it's book based isn't it?

    That uses no reference to arbitary rules that when looked at, fail to convince. Especially as it also gets past the "oh look, I've remembered all my previous skills".
    And for what reason is that pray tell?

    QuartzPermidion_Stark
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,117
    edited June 2

    yep. now you don't need to head canon why the canon party is with you at the start of 2 and play whatever party you want in bg1 and sod.

    Instead you have to headcannon why Minsc and Dynaheir are sitting in the Three Kegs when you killed them less than a month ago......

    Yeah, I can really see how that is so much better.....

    Seems to me that whereas BG2 had understandable and forgivable reasons for why the cannon party has to be present at the start of BG2 (constraints on the development, kicks the story off, could be played as a standalone game which many, many people did, ect.), SOD doubles down on the insistance that these NPC are the ones you should play with.

    It dictates evenmore how you should play. But then, with SOD, the whole design is to remove as much "R" from RPG as it possibly could.

    Quartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,613

    ThacoBell said:

    Unless I'm missing a thief, that leaves Safana. Who is neutral and is probably used to doing thiefy things for coin.

    @ThacoBell - Coran, Skie, Tiax
    Ah, that's right. How many of them do you trust to hire?

    @UnderstandMouseMagic But Imoen starts BG2 as a Thief>Mage. That needed to be explained. Having take some time off and train under a mage makes perfect sense. SoD also doesn't railroad the playing any harder with the story than any other of the BG titles. You always have to stop the Iron Crisis, You always stop Sarevok, Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Dynaheir, and Imoen somehow always traveled with you in BG1, you always chase after Irenicus, etc. SoD does an admirable job fitting those retroactive railroads into a coherent storyline.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,226
    edited June 6
    I honestly don't see SoD as a bridge but as a deck. EET makes it something closer to what a bridge would be.

    Post edited by Raduziel on
    tbone1the_sexteinMirandel
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 589
    edited June 5
    I agree, I really like what EET does to help add some interactivity and personal connection during the crossover. I keep checking the site in hopes that the Icewinddale part of the mod is going to come around. Fingers crossed that k4thos shows up at some point.

  • DordledumDordledum Member Posts: 172
    Well, in my first attempt I didn't click with SoD at all. Now on my second playthrough and really enjoying it. Maybe it was my mood or too high expectations first time? Great game, beamdog!

    JuliusBorisovThacoBellStummvonBordwehrBallpointMan
  • AMP1972AMP1972 Member Posts: 57
    If you know that BG-SoD is actually alike a mini-adventure thrown-in to bridge the production time of the real sequel (up to Throne of Baal), then it should actually be OK.

    Several MODS work fine, as I even got some running on Android stand-alone version of BG-SoD.

    The price is not half the other BG titles, so a lower quality was somehow to be expected. Personally I just hoped for more modders of the old times coming back.

    Beamdog's forum is really full of people who help without expecting favors, payment, or naughty in the parking lot kinda stuff, in return.

    As GM I would say your attitude answered it all. You build artificial expectations before game start, you expect it to fit a character, who may be a bad choice for this story & monster bashing ordeal, and you fail to see that both is fine: Skip the game, or play it, it is a free decision.

    Personally I find it working best with the evil group, as decades later some sermon, once humorous, borders racist & immature by now. Even Minsc is no longer funny, more like a prank on expense of a mentally damaged person. Still it is at least not half as sloppy, as Pillars of Eternity started.

    And the hint I always get: Computer games are no replacement for real roleplaying, even excluding that game designers fail to realize how many noob-mistakes they make while claiming to be pros.

  • AMP1972AMP1972 Member Posts: 57
    ThacoBell said:

    @jastey "Maybe it's because a) people expected a newly developped game not to make the same mistakes as the old ones"

    You mean the perfect, flawless, greatest games of all time? How dare you suggest BG is anything less than perfect! (Heavy sarcasm mode)

    I think the rightful part is that roleplayers DO notice, when a game dev learns less, aka improves less, than their pen & paper tabletop Dungeon Master had to do (usually time and time again, as many groups stick together for years).

  • VasculioVasculio Member Posts: 407
    I have mixed feelings when it comes to SoD. First, what was the point of Romancing Corwin and Safana? Its not like the romances pick up in Baldurs Gate 2. Sure, this was scripted in way before the 2016 backlash. Where they could have seen them get added later. But even so... Siege of Dragonspear was too linear and too short to have anything solid with them. Second, In terms of New Characters. I HATED the M'Goblin. Just something about her voice and dialog that made me cringe. And Third, Glint. I didn't keep him in my party long enough to know just how *** he really was! Not that theres anything wrong with that! Just... not my cup of tea. Fourth and Finally, The Unfinished Business with the Hoodedman plot. Left a mystery to stay a mystery. Despite the game being mediocre. I think it was good enough be part of the Trilogy.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 894
    Vasculio said:

    First, what was the point of Romancing Corwin and Safana?

    I agree. Every romance in SoD seemed painfully awkward and forced, even in comparison with yuckiness of BG2 romances. Especially Corwin - one or two neutral talks, and then suddenly she admits some attraction. Very bizarre.

    Vasculio
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,173
    had it just been the ee npcs that were romanced then it would not have been an issue. but they decided the new npcs , safana, and vicky needed one to. safana's is the real issue as you know it's not gonna last [ but to be fair npc project did the same thing with coran which may be where they got the idea.]

  • DonCzirrDonCzirr Member Posts: 93
    So far - I am really enjoying SOD.

    Only complaints I have at this point are:

    1. Not enough Dorn content (but that is just me lobbying for my favorite companion NPC =) )

    2.Lack of some basic attribute enhancing kit for STR + for an example. They have that spear - but it is just annoying. Some Ogre gauntlets etc would be nice.

    Otherwise - I am having a really good time and am playing at a nice leisurely pace on my Android tablet - ... giving the Devs time to work out the kinks with NWN EE on Android.

    Thanks Beamdog - your quality mobile offerings once again justify you as my favorite publishers for iPAD and Android games.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBellStummvonBordwehrDordledum
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