Just can't enjoy Siege
gibby290
Member Posts: 19
Hi guys,
Long time BG player, I remember going out in the snow when it launched WAAAAY back in Dec of 98 to ensure I had a copy on release day...4 CDs of content, long install...so worth it. I've played through the game (and its sequel) many times, with each different class, difficulty, etc.
When EE launched, it was an insta-buy. The game tracked my play throughs (sort of) with achievements, very awesome! The graphics were improved, the gameplay smooth as ever, the new companions felt right...just an awesome experience. I again played through each game multiple times.
Then the other shoe dropped...NEW BG CONTENT!!! Couldn't wait to finally bridge the gap between BG and BG2 with Siege. I was again first in line with a preorder, VERY EXCITED.
But for some reason, I have a very difficult time finding immersion in the game. It felt non-congruent with the other two. The companions felt 'weird', the story didn't make any sense, and your progress didn't really affect the BG2 story (besides xp gained).
To this day, I haven't been able to play though siege in it's entirety. I'd have preferred to 'start fresh' with a prologue to a new BG story than attempt to bolt on more content to a fairly complete game. It sort of felt like trying to rekindle a relationship with someone when it ended for a good reason...kind of exciting at first, but you quickly realize it's awkward and forced.
My advice to Beamdog...continue with the EE concept, IWD, BG, and NWN are brilliant. However, when adding new content, start fresh with a new story, but utilizing the same awesome game engine. I will likely not buy another product like siege, bolted on to a current legendary story.
Long time BG player, I remember going out in the snow when it launched WAAAAY back in Dec of 98 to ensure I had a copy on release day...4 CDs of content, long install...so worth it. I've played through the game (and its sequel) many times, with each different class, difficulty, etc.
When EE launched, it was an insta-buy. The game tracked my play throughs (sort of) with achievements, very awesome! The graphics were improved, the gameplay smooth as ever, the new companions felt right...just an awesome experience. I again played through each game multiple times.
Then the other shoe dropped...NEW BG CONTENT!!! Couldn't wait to finally bridge the gap between BG and BG2 with Siege. I was again first in line with a preorder, VERY EXCITED.
But for some reason, I have a very difficult time finding immersion in the game. It felt non-congruent with the other two. The companions felt 'weird', the story didn't make any sense, and your progress didn't really affect the BG2 story (besides xp gained).
To this day, I haven't been able to play though siege in it's entirety. I'd have preferred to 'start fresh' with a prologue to a new BG story than attempt to bolt on more content to a fairly complete game. It sort of felt like trying to rekindle a relationship with someone when it ended for a good reason...kind of exciting at first, but you quickly realize it's awkward and forced.
My advice to Beamdog...continue with the EE concept, IWD, BG, and NWN are brilliant. However, when adding new content, start fresh with a new story, but utilizing the same awesome game engine. I will likely not buy another product like siege, bolted on to a current legendary story.
11
Comments
With what party did you try to play Siege of Dragonspear? On which difficutly? Till what moment did you manage to play? What did you find awkward and forced?
You mention new companions "felt right" in BG:EE, did you try them in SoD?
Do you usually prefer playing BG with or without mods? If with mods, then which category of mods?
My party consisted of me (paladin, undead hunter), Jaheria, Neera, Corwin, and others (whom I rotated to try different folks). I have gotten as far as the Castle (where you meet Khalid again). For my only playthough, I was on 'normal' difficulty. The awkward portion was the story in general...it didn't flow well. I couldn't keep track of side quests and it felt too 'sand-boxy'. Also, my choices at various points were not clear.
I did try the new companions in SoD, but could never find a party that felt right. Generally my parties in BG are Iomen, CharName, Neera or Dyna, Minsc, Jaheria, Cleric, Monk, or Paladin depending on CharName
The only mod I use is 'ease of use' to increase stack sizes, relax alignment requirements, and ID all items.
That's interesting. Almost every complaint that I see about SoD are how its "too linear". Shame you couldn't get into it its one of the highlights of the series for me.
That said, and this is very important, there are parts of SOD that are really worth playing. There are parts which do capture the feel of BG2, though perhaps not BG.
I would suggest you use a walkthrough. SOD is far too linear IMO not sandboxy. But at the beginning it's kind of neither. You get the sense that you are on a track, but in fact there's a lot you can miss. And also, I kept on getting the feeling I was in the "wrong" place, that I was doing an area/dungeon before I ought to be there.
Perhaps that's where it goes wrong?
It doesen't encourage exploration and the area divides make you feel as if you are going somewhere else rather than exploring the area.
For example, you are told you will find something or to go look for something. Fair enough, but actually they are talking about the next "area".
So OK, that's the same in BG when getting Brage or Bassilus for instance, but for some reason SOD is unclear about it I found.
So follow a guide is my advice and really give the game a chance. Individual set pieces or areas are definitely worth playing at least once.
Also, feeling 'bolted on' is true for me...I'd have rather ran a chapter or two of a new protagonist, possibly intertwined with a small plot point from BG (ala Rogue One in Star Wars). I.E. maybe you're an agent caught up in the ore scandal in the mines...
I won't post another post about how disappointed I was about the ending.
Difficulties of dealing with that level of complication also means there are oddities in the way some of the side quests work, e.g. as has been referred to already it feels strange when you start acquiring items for quests which only relate to NPCs that are not even in your party.
While there are weaknesses in the game there are plenty of strengths as well. The big improvement in AI is welcome and the large set-piece battles are something new to an unmodded game, while there are plenty of interesting encounters to explore. I agree it does have a slightly different feel to the other games, but then BG itself has a different feel to BG2. Over time people got used to those differences and simply accepted that was the way things were. I would expect to find in 10 years time or so that the same process will see SoD fully accepted as part of the BG series.
I'm going to pass on SoD this playthrough, I don't feel like playing through it again with this class.
And well most of SoDs flaws and strengths have been covered.
That being said Beamdog I think you guys have abandoned most attempts at improving the game and just said ''it's up to modders now'' That's remained a disappointment for me ever since you announced it IMO.
I mean sure you have other priorities now, but I honestly think there are things you could do to make the continuity a bit better, especially in Bg2.
"Difficulties of dealing with that level of complication also means there are oddities in the way some of the side quests work, e.g. as has been referred to already it feels strange when you start acquiring items for quests which only relate to NPCs that are not even in your party."
I think some of the complication comes from the overall design. There are of course good reasons why you can't return to areas, but on the other hand, suspension of disbelief is far easier to employ over travelling huge distances when actually you don't travel them. Just as in BG you run up and down the Sword Coast as if you can jump on a train/plane/automobile.
To use an example,
It's not satisfying having to do that quest so early in the game before you have found your feet. Especially as the game starts in a dungeon, so a bit sick of them by then. And you have to deal with a lich.
I'm not saying it's too hard, hell my party was so OP no lich had a chance, but it's more that you simply don't want to be forced at that point to do the quest or otherwise you lose the chance. Or have to use a McGuffin on the lich because you meet it early.
Now of course it makes sense and is realistic that you can't backtrack miles and miles after moving with the camp, but for gaming experience/satisfaction, I would have enjoyed "pretending" in game that I could.
I wonder if this might be the result of a mix of 1) rose colored glasses and nostalgia for the old games 2) newer games resetting our expectations 3) the game being forced to start with the end of BG1 and end with the start of BG2 4) thus meaning fewer surprises at the end (as in BG1, SoA, and ToB they first time through) 5) excitement and expectation being so high that it was bound to disappoint 6) the well-known two issues that happened when SoD came out.
I'm still looking forward to it. The joinable NPCs sound interesting (can't wait to see what the modders do with them in BG2 and maybe BG1) and maybe I will finally write a side-quest mod I've been thinking of for a year+ and make it for SoD.
Something about the game doesn't work for me (as the OP has said for themselves).
I have suggested a strategy that might help them give the game a chance.
I have tried above^^^ to give some constructive criticism as to why that might be when it comes to just one dungeon. Now I do appreciate that the dungeon is well designed but if you don't enjoy playing it?
What exactly is a player meant to say other than try and work out what it is that might have gone wrong for them?
All the defense given for the game along the lines of unfeasible expectations, nostalgia, setting ect. don't add up.
Just recently I was very disappointed with the new Star Wars film. And the defense for it was similar to those issues you have outlined.
Yet the new Jumanji film has been a smash hit, popular with audiences across the board, has made millions and is proving far "leggier" (people going back to see it again and again and word of mouth) than the Star Wars film.
So please explain how an audience decides for itself how one update/remake/new episode works and another doesn't if it comes down to what you are suggesting?
However, I also generally agree with @tbone1 's assessment. SO MANY complaints that I see are about things that are shared between all 3 three installments. Often I see the same people who universally praise BG1 or 2 as practically perfect, complain heavily about many things that SoD does similarly. This aspect of SoD's criticism is baffling to me.
Challenging battle and engaging music.
For instance @tbone1 mentioned unlikeable characters.
Edwin is unlikeable for a lot of people (fools
Corwin is detestable for a lot of people (me included).
Edwin can be ignored/killed the moment you see him.
Corwin is forced upon the player.
Now what we are told as a defense is that "it's only for a short portion of the game".
But during that period, she is pretty rude to charname, doesn't show much respect to Charname, gets in the bloody way a lot when you are just trying to play the game, involves charname with her boring backstory.
And you can't kill her (I've tried), nor the brat (tried that too).
Now this a real difference, and it comes at the start of the game when most likely you are in a foul mood anyway because you have just lost NPC who you chose to fight Sarevok with. And you are justified in feeling a little proud of yourself for saving the Sword Coast/Amn from war. The developers started the game by pissing people off, why for heaven's sake?
Rookie mistake.
Even in BG2 in Chateau Irenicus, you can leave the NPC if you don't like/want them in party.
The developers understood something years ago which seems to have been forgotten now, which is,
"As much player agency as possible."
Edited to add.
Thankyou for the compliment, it's good to have a civil discussion with you as well.
In my opinion, SoD makes mistakes that are also criticized in mods a lot - there are unwritten rules some modders tried to observe over the years. 1: Do Not Force A Rection Onto The Player, 2: Give As Much Choices As Possible, and I would like to add 3. Use As Little Cutscenes As Possible
I think it is justified to be disappointed if you think professional developers make newbie-modder mistakes.
No, I didn't say that this applies to the whole SoD campaign. But in a gem, if there is a crack it's still taking lots of the sparkle away.
It's true that after the prologue you also can't avoid some dialogue from Corwin, but that's effectively just moving the plot along - there's no particular reason to get her to join the party. There are plenty of NPCs that you can recruit on your journey, but only if you specifically try to do so. The only 'forced' dialogue with them I suppose you could count would be with Skye - which again relates to plot points.
The only time when an NPC might actually join your party unexpectedly is in the final battle and that only occurs if you follow one of three possible dialogue choices - each of which have multiple options to get there (and you also need to have an existing open slot in your party). The different routes can radically change the way the final battle plays out - which is part of what I was referring to in my earlier post saying that SoD is more complex than it appears on first play-through.
Despite what I've said above I agree that the NPC interactions are more irritating than they needed to be (that's from the perspective of someone who almost never uses NPCs). I also agree with @jastey that introducing new cutscenes that can't be skipped is a real annoyance in the EE games - that just smacks of a designer wanting to show off how clever they've been.
"It's true that after the prologue you also can't avoid some dialogue from Corwin, but that's effectively just moving the plot along - there's no particular reason to get her to join the party. "
Maybe I've played it wrong then? it's been a while
Corwin followed me around BG like a bloody minder and I couldn't get rid of her. There was quite a bit of forced dialogue when you are getting ready to leave, she interfered with fighting (though not when perhaps you could have used the help on the second floor of Sourcerous sundries), the scene with the daughter, she interrupted and gave me advice when the crowd were turning nasty.
None of this was needed.
You mean the perfect, flawless, greatest games of all time? How dare you suggest BG is anything less than perfect! (Heavy sarcasm mode)
But you can (mild spoiler for last SoD chapter)
Thing is, such emotional release wouldn't be possible if you could dismiss her early on - the negative feelings had to build up first.
That's because there *is no gap* to bridge between the two games. All that there was to "fill in" was how the party was captured by Irenicus. At best, it may have been a long sidequest. Certainly not an expansion. I played SoD through once, just to see all of it. As a standalone game, it would have been a solid 7/10 I think. As an addition to bridge an imaginary gap between two legendary games, it is an abomination.
The storyline was far too "epic" to be a gap-bridger. We are talking apocalyptic-level stakes, here. Then it is never mentioned in BG2 (for obvious reasons), which ruins immersion, since such a major event would definitely be brought up by someone. The Solar in ToB might have something to say about it, for instance!
The companions (especially Safana) were butchered completely. I don't even consider her the same Safana we know and love, just some doppleganger version who has the same name (in the same way that the Faldorn of BG2 was butchered by the original team).
The Final Boss was unoriginal, too.
I would advise Beamdog in the same way you did - create your own content. From what I have seen of them, they are marvelous with the engine and the graphic side of things (not to mention making controls far easier and more streamlined), but their writing is not that of the original BG/BG2 creators.
BG1 starts on 1 Mirtul 1368 DR.
BG2 starts on 1 Mirtul 1369 DR.
Also, you can load the games, start a new game, and use the journal to check the date.