I honestly got disappointed with the way SoD's plot develops.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.
They made the big mistake to fire Roxanne from the project and she took all the ideas of how SoD be the bridge from BG1 to BG2 with her. You get it when you use her Sandrah mod with EET and see how it becomes a picture.
You're right about the mod putting a lot more sense into the transition. You're wrong about her having ever worked on SoD or even beamdog. They just were *inspired* by a lot from her BGT mod with the chapter between BG1 and BG2 and then some other old BGT mods with the hooded man and the mountain of doom that became a bhaal temple and that was from Drizzt Saga.
I honestly got disappointed with the way SoD's plot develops.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.
They made the big mistake to fire Roxanne from the project and she took all the ideas of how SoD be the bridge from BG1 to BG2 with her. You get it when you use her Sandrah mod with EET and see how it becomes a picture.
You're right about the mod putting a lot more sense into the transition. You're wrong about her having ever worked on SoD or even beamdog. They just were *inspired* by a lot from her BGT mod with the chapter between BG1 and BG2 and then some other old BGT mods with the hooded man and the mountain of doom that became a bhaal temple and that was from Drizzt Saga.
Ah, I thought they had all the big modders on SoD, sometimes you find their handwriting. At least they played all the big mods including original BGT Sandrah and Drizzt and some. The ideas and concepts shine through but not enough. They didn't dare to go all the way.
I honestly got disappointed with the way SoD's plot develops.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.
They made the big mistake to fire Roxanne from the project and she took all the ideas of how SoD be the bridge from BG1 to BG2 with her. You get it when you use her Sandrah mod with EET and see how it becomes a picture.
You're right about the mod putting a lot more sense into the transition. You're wrong about her having ever worked on SoD or even beamdog. They just were *inspired* by a lot from her BGT mod with the chapter between BG1 and BG2 and then some other old BGT mods with the hooded man and the mountain of doom that became a bhaal temple and that was from Drizzt Saga.
Ah, I thought they had all the big modders on SoD, sometimes you find their handwriting. At least they played all the big mods including original BGT Sandrah and Drizzt and some. The ideas and concepts shine through but not enough. They didn't dare to go all the way.
They COULDN'T go all the way cause it's commercial product. The modders can. The whole thing just would've been even more controversal. Anyway, if you put EET and all the mods into it, then SoD becomes more complete and feels like it belongs to the game. It's just like old BG1 really started to rock off when BG1NPC was added.
Putting into spoiler tags for potential series wide spoilers.
Caelar had every advantage that Sarevok wished he had, and she managed to throw it away.
That is, unfortunately, all too common across (essentially) every culture on Earth. It makes her quite believable. It also dovetails into one of my favorite topics, but that is going too far off-topic.
I honestly got disappointed with the way SoD's plot develops.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.
They made the big mistake to fire Roxanne from the project and she took all the ideas of how SoD be the bridge from BG1 to BG2 with her. You get it when you use her Sandrah mod with EET and see how it becomes a picture.
You're right about the mod putting a lot more sense into the transition. You're wrong about her having ever worked on SoD or even beamdog. They just were *inspired* by a lot from her BGT mod with the chapter between BG1 and BG2 and then some other old BGT mods with the hooded man and the mountain of doom that became a bhaal temple and that was from Drizzt Saga.
Ah, I thought they had all the big modders on SoD, sometimes you find their handwriting. At least they played all the big mods including original BGT Sandrah and Drizzt and some. The ideas and concepts shine through but not enough. They didn't dare to go all the way.
- A lich that can only be destroyed when you find his essence hidden nearby, he? That's Dark Side of the Sword Coast, the Jet'laya sister quest, right? - The lost souls you bring to the Fugue Plane, that's in Sandrah Saga already - The former Bhaal temple now overun by Cyric, Sandrah as well - The apprentice opening a gate to hell where demons can leak through and then a sacrifice is needed by someone to close the seal from the other side? Isn't that Region of Terror, in the Spirit Soaring episode - The way your NPCs can step in to solve quests due to their classes, again from Sandrah Saga - You can only destroy an artifact by some special fire, again Region of Terror, the crystal - Then Cealar herself with a crusade where she sacrifices armies for a *good* purpose, driven by her heritage and the idea such is in her family? And the need of a bhaalspawn to achieve that? Again Sandrah but misinterpreted, as Sandrah's motivation is not a selfish limited one but more like Prometheus.
That's going to be a long list, they really loved them big old mods and its kind of paying them respect. You only steal from get inspired from the best.
I honestly got disappointed with the way SoD's plot develops.
When I played the first time and saw myself on a dungeon hunting Sarevok's followers I thought "that will be awesome". But then the plot moved on and I perceived what it was about.
Disappointing.
Then I ended it and I didn't got the "bridge between BG1 and BG2". The transition was confuse yet - only slightly better thanks to EET (that final cutscene is the only reason why I play this mod as I'm stupid and BWS gives me a bad time).
Disappointing.
In my second run in SoD I tried to play this as a ToSC huge quest. Putting behind any perspective of a BG2-transition it was, let's say, pleasant.
Not as good as Durlag's Tower but definitely better than Ice Island and Werewolf Island.
As a bridge I rate SoD as a 2/10. As a quest-pack, 6/10.
They made the big mistake to fire Roxanne from the project and she took all the ideas of how SoD be the bridge from BG1 to BG2 with her. You get it when you use her Sandrah mod with EET and see how it becomes a picture.
You're right about the mod putting a lot more sense into the transition. You're wrong about her having ever worked on SoD or even beamdog. They just were *inspired* by a lot from her BGT mod with the chapter between BG1 and BG2 and then some other old BGT mods with the hooded man and the mountain of doom that became a bhaal temple and that was from Drizzt Saga.
Ah, I thought they had all the big modders on SoD, sometimes you find their handwriting. At least they played all the big mods including original BGT Sandrah and Drizzt and some. The ideas and concepts shine through but not enough. They didn't dare to go all the way.
- A lich that can only be destroyed when you find his essence hidden nearby, he? That's Dark Side of the Sword Coast, the Jet'laya sister quest, right? - The lost souls you bring to the Fugue Plane, that's in Sandrah Saga already - The former Bhaal temple now overun by Cyric, Sandrah as well - The apprentice opening a gate to hell where demons can leak through and then a sacrifice is needed by someone to close the seal from the other side? Isn't that Region of Terror, in the Spirit Soaring episode - The way your NPCs can step in to solve quests due to their classes, again from Sandrah Saga - You can only destroy an artifact by some special fire, again Region of Terror, the crystal - Then Cealar herself with a crusade where she sacrifices armies for a *good* purpose, driven by her heritage and the idea such is in her family? And the need of a bhaalspawn to achieve that? Again Sandrah but misinterpreted, as Sandrah's motivation is not a selfish limited one but more like Prometheus.
That's going to be a long list, they really loved them big old mods and its kind of paying them respect. You only steal from get inspired from the best.
Problem is that mixing a lot of good ingredients from here and there doesn't make a tasty meal. All those elements made far more sense in the original context. The former bridge between BG1 and BG2 in Sandrah was foreshadowing events by creating the atmosphere for later events rather than blatantly pointing at them.
@Kusel Most of those ideas are obvious choices and to me seem more like ideas several people can have at different places independently to one another. For example the "kill lich with his phylactery" thing is canon, I think, and used by a quest mod that never got public which was developped 16 years ago.
@Kusel Most of those ideas are obvious choices and to me seem more like ideas several people can have at different places independently to one another. For example the "kill lich with his phylactery" thing is canon, I think, and used by a quest mod that never got public which was developped 16 years ago.
I'm not complaining, I'm one of those who really LIKE SoD for the sheer fact that it exists. If you add all the mods for it, it's even better - just like ToB gets a valid part of the game when you add ascension, Longer Road, Sandrah and Wheels of Prophesy to it. Like they say in music business: We all *borrow* ideas, just make sure you take yours from the best sources. To make clear - I don't say there is plagiarism or such, just guys playing all the old mods and liking them and afterwards sit down to write a sequel and all those ideas are just "in the air". You aren't even aware of it. The biggest hit singles that come out in music are those that sound like they've always been there naturally.
To make clear - I don't say there is plagiarism or such
Not trying to be offensive but for me, you do, if you assume that just because ideas are to some extend similar always means the creators of the "second" idea did so with the first one in mind - that's not always the case, as I pointed out. Also, by relating this I think you give mods a far too high input on the devs work - my 2 cents.
To make clear - I don't say there is plagiarism or such
Not trying to be offensive but for me, you do, if you assume that just because ideas are to some extend similar always means the creators of the "second" idea did so with the first one in mind - that's not always the case, as I pointed out. Also, by relating this I think you give mods a far too high input on the devs work - my 2 cents.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's that a lot of what you can add to the game has already been covered by one mod or the other over the long time. Find a new kit that nobody has thought of yet.
It's just that when beamdog started to renovate the games they made a lot of publicity themselves about modder's input.
The one thing I dislike in SoD is that final plot twist. And some occasional clumsy writing as well.
The sidequests are great. And I do mean great. Like, the Dwarves of Dumathoin stands as my number one favorite side quest in the entire series: -It has a nicely developed scenario -It provides you with nice, unique items and has vastly different outcomes depending on your choices, and these even have influence, though pretty minor, on the main quest. -It's quite long and well written, with well balanced difficulty
Besides that, there are different ways of progressing in the main plot. Some people blame the game for being linear. Well do tell me when in the BG series, the main quest is not linear, not totally guided, and dependent on your choice? In the original BG, for example, alignment and alignment-based choices have literally 0 influence over the main story besides altering a few dialogs. Even in BG2, there are only two exceptions: -Choosing with whom you side in chapter 3 gets you a different set of main quests, and based on that choice you don't get to ask Thieves for help against vampires in chapter 6. This is probably the best instance of RP actually mattering in the original BG series. -Dialog options with the Solar in ToB gets you a different ending.
BG gets you under the impression it is not linear because it has super vast areas to explore, most of which are mostly empty with one or two npc of interest, but really there is nothing more linear than the BG1 plot. You're literally railroaded and your choices (e.g. Do you kill Rieltar? The following events could have been vastly different if Rieltar could actually survive the encounter) have 0 influence on how the game events unfolds. And neither do any of the sidequests. In that respect BG is a lot more linear than SoD.
So yeah, SoD has flaws, and I can totally understand why some people won't like it. The final plot twist nearly did that to me. But it definitely has great parts, really worth playing, and while some of the reproaches are founded, I find others, like linearity, for instance, to be unfounded.
The one thing I dislike in SoD is that final plot twist. And some occasional clumsy writing as well.
The sidequests are great. And I do mean great. Like, the Dwarves of Dumathoin stands as my number one favorite side quest in the entire series: -It has a nicely developed scenario -It provides you with nice, unique items and has vastly different outcomes depending on your choices, and these even have influence, though pretty minor, on the main quest. -It's quite long and well written, with well balanced difficulty
Besides that, there are different ways of progressing in the main plot. Some people blame the game for being linear. Well do tell me when in the BG series, the main quest is not linear, not totally guided, and dependent on your choice? In the original BG, for example, alignment and alignment-based choices have literally 0 influence over the main story besides altering a few dialogs. Even in BG2, there are only two exceptions: -Choosing with whom you side in chapter 3 gets you a different set of main quests, and based on that choice you don't get to ask Thieves for help against vampires in chapter 6. This is probably the best instance of RP actually mattering in the original BG series. -Dialog options with the Solar in ToB gets you a different ending.
BG gets you under the impression it is not linear because it has super vast areas to explore, most of which are mostly empty with one or two npc of interest, but really there is nothing more linear than the BG1 plot. You're literally railroaded and your choices (e.g. Do you kill Rieltar? The following events could have been vastly different if Rieltar could actually survive the encounter) have 0 influence on how the game events unfolds. And neither do any of the sidequests. In that respect BG is a lot more linear than SoD.
So yeah, SoD has flaws, and I can totally understand why some people won't like it. The final plot twist nearly did that to me. But it definitely has great parts, really worth playing, and while some of the reproaches are founded, I find others, like linearity, for instance, to be unfounded.
I fully agree with that. SoD is really the only main plot that gives you choices. BG1 is completely linear it just offers you countless sidetracks you can chose to follow the main plot. It's distraction but not alternatives. BG2 has two choices - thieves or vampires and route into Underdark, portal or Seamon. Otherwise it's as linear as BG1 ToB has no real choices - you can chose on Sendaj or Abazigal first, if that is a choice. And then the final choice which has no effect at all except your own satisfaction.
The devs in SoD really have learned from the old game and gave you true alternatives here. Just the final chapter again is a bottleneck, but mods are already out there to open up.
yeah belhifet feels shoehorned into baldurs gate. it's like beamdog had no idea how to end the crusader plot and one guy is like ' hey black ilse left this lingering plot thread in iwd 1 that never got resolved in it's sequel. how about we use him?"
they could have easily used another demon or not had the plot point at all.
yeah belhifet feels shoehorned into baldurs gate. it's like beamdog had no idea how to end the crusader plot and one guy is like ' hey black ilse left this lingering plot thread in iwd 1 that never got resolved in it's sequel. how about we use him?"
they could have easily used another demon or not had the plot point at all.
I felt like belhifet was a nice touch to SoD, was nice to see him again.
yeah belhifet feels shoehorned into baldurs gate. it's like beamdog had no idea how to end the crusader plot and one guy is like ' hey black ilse left this lingering plot thread in iwd 1 that never got resolved in it's sequel. how about we use him?"
they could have easily used another demon or not had the plot point at all.
This. I was surprised to see ol' Belly-fat make an appearance towards the end. He is too grand a villain to waste on an expansion for mid-level characters. Other than that, I agree with everything @arunsun and @Kusel said above.
yeah belhifet feels shoehorned into baldurs gate. it's like beamdog had no idea how to end the crusader plot and one guy is like ' hey black ilse left this lingering plot thread in iwd 1 that never got resolved in it's sequel. how about we use him?"
they could have easily used another demon or not had the plot point at all.
This. I was surprised to see ol' Belly-fat make an appearance towards the end. He is too grand a villain to waste on an expansion for mid-level characters. Other than that, I agree with everything @arunsun and @Kusel said above.
Just to mention. I play a modded version of the game which exchanges that demon's name with another, I guess they do it for the IWD-in-EET compliance. It works just as well, because that boss' name makes no difference for the game in any way, call him Bill or Jim or Hopsi, it's completely irrelevant. And BTW neither did his name matter in IWD.
yeah belhifet feels shoehorned into baldurs gate. it's like beamdog had no idea how to end the crusader plot and one guy is like ' hey black ilse left this lingering plot thread in iwd 1 that never got resolved in it's sequel. how about we use him?"
they could have easily used another demon or not had the plot point at all.
This. I was surprised to see ol' Belly-fat make an appearance towards the end. He is too grand a villain to waste on an expansion for mid-level characters. Other than that, I agree with everything @arunsun and @Kusel said above.
Maybe I just don't grind enough, but endgame SoD was about the levels of my IWD party when I tackled Belhifet there.
yeah belhifet feels shoehorned into baldurs gate. it's like beamdog had no idea how to end the crusader plot and one guy is like ' hey black ilse left this lingering plot thread in iwd 1 that never got resolved in it's sequel. how about we use him?"
they could have easily used another demon or not had the plot point at all.
This. I was surprised to see ol' Belly-fat make an appearance towards the end. He is too grand a villain to waste on an expansion for mid-level characters. Other than that, I agree with everything @arunsun and @Kusel said above.
Maybe I just don't grind enough, but endgame SoD was about the levels of my IWD party when I tackled Belhifet there.
You're supposed to be a couple of levels higher than that. My non-completionist runs of IWD with still a fair amount of quests done often end at 1.5M experience point approximately (for a 6 man party), so that's level 14-16 depending on your class. SoD is 10-12
The one thing I dislike in SoD is that final plot twist. And some occasional clumsy writing as well.
The sidequests are great. And I do mean great. Like, the Dwarves of Dumathoin stands as my number one favorite side quest in the entire series: -It has a nicely developed scenario -It provides you with nice, unique items and has vastly different outcomes depending on your choices, and these even have influence, though pretty minor, on the main quest. -It's quite long and well written, with well balanced difficulty
Besides that, there are different ways of progressing in the main plot. Some people blame the game for being linear. Well do tell me when in the BG series, the main quest is not linear, not totally guided, and dependent on your choice? In the original BG, for example, alignment and alignment-based choices have literally 0 influence over the main story besides altering a few dialogs. Even in BG2, there are only two exceptions: -Choosing with whom you side in chapter 3 gets you a different set of main quests, and based on that choice you don't get to ask Thieves for help against vampires in chapter 6. This is probably the best instance of RP actually mattering in the original BG series. -Dialog options with the Solar in ToB gets you a different ending.
BG gets you under the impression it is not linear because it has super vast areas to explore, most of which are mostly empty with one or two npc of interest, but really there is nothing more linear than the BG1 plot. You're literally railroaded and your choices (e.g. Do you kill Rieltar? The following events could have been vastly different if Rieltar could actually survive the encounter) have 0 influence on how the game events unfolds. And neither do any of the sidequests. In that respect BG is a lot more linear than SoD.
So yeah, SoD has flaws, and I can totally understand why some people won't like it. The final plot twist nearly did that to me. But it definitely has great parts, really worth playing, and while some of the reproaches are founded, I find others, like linearity, for instance, to be unfounded.
Let's try an experiment.
There are two products. Product A and Product B.
Product A is liked by most, Product B is not (craveat not making that claim, just for the sake of argument)
People who like Product B point out the similarities with Product A and the faults with Product A.
And at the end of the day it makes no difference to whether people then go on to enjoy Product B. What it will only ever do is diminish their enoyment of Product A, if anything.
You are correct, the Dwarves quest is a good quest. How and where it is incorporated in game diminishes the enjoyment for some would be my analysis. It becomes a chore because you have to complete it then and there if you want to play it at all. The lead in to it is unclear leaving some players feeling that they are doing something wrong.
Instead of defending that by pointing out what's wrong with BG/BG2, how about analysing what could be have been done better to ensure that more players enjoy, in this case, Product B.
You are far more likely to change people's opinions/reactions by acknowledging what's wrong because it leaves them the choice of moving past that. Rather than deflecting and making the argument that they should feel differently because of A,B and C.
You could be right, probably are, that BG/BG2 are just as linear. However what does that matter if the player, the consumer, doesn't have that reaction? Isn't made to feel as if they are on a track?
But Caelar made it personal to CHARNAME because she wanted the Bhaalspan's blood to do something crucial for her plan (does this thread have a spoiler warning, btw?).
My PC dearly missed at some point the possibility to hand herself in and end all the fighting and siege and suffering of ordinary people. "You want me, Caelar? Fine, here I am!". Or at an earlier point, why not join the Crusade, only to find out you've been double-double crossed (because it's your blood we wanted all along, meheheh.) But this was stated elsewhere already, that it was disappointing not to have the possibility to join her, at least. But it was also the reason the whole campaign and the siege seemed forced onto the player and it broke immersion for me. I wouldn't mind not being able to join because Caelar or your allies won't let you, but I am highly sensitive to the option just missing in your reply options and instead having what felt like twenty reply options all saying different variations of "never, Caelar, damn you" (there aren't twenty reply options stating that, of course, I am putting my feeling into words.)
You may feel like this because you have your paladin glasses on. But the situation is very similar to let's say Sarevok: Despite Sarevok's *Join with me Brother/Sister* and Tamoko's plea to spare his life, it all ends with you having only options to fight and kill him. And you can't tell Irenicus that his wrath against Ellesime is justified and anybody has a right to fight against the punishment he received. And do what you will but you can't join the Five. And even knowing that Melissan is a deceiver does not change your options in ToB.
There's many examples in the game where you wish you had other choices...but it's *the show must gp on* and the protagonist is part of the show and must play the assigned role - they call it fate, but actually it's that the game has to have some limits or programming it would never end and it will never get published.
@Kusel You are right about those points. I only remember running around with my group after just having overheard that Hephernaan plans his betrayal and that it's the PC's blood he needs, not able to tell anyone or influence the game events in any way. It was a bit immersion breaking.
@Kusel You are right about those points. I only remember running around with my group after just having overheard that Hephernaan plans his betrayal and that it's the PC's blood he needs, not able to tell anyone or influence the game events in any way. It was a bit immersion breaking.
I remember this and other scenes and when I first encountered them I looked up those dialogues in Near Infinity because I thought I missed something (a global or INT, WIS or such) that would give me other choices. Then I understood it wasn't foreseen and since that is often the case in the game, I shrugged my shoulders and played on. I'd rather dig around to see what is THERE than to lose time complaining what is NOT THERE. Everything can be improved but considering everything (after 5th or so SoD play) I find that pretty much good stuff is there. The main plot was never the highlight in any of the campaigns.
Despite Sarevok's *Join with me Brother/Sister* and Tamoko's plea to spare his life, it all ends with you having only options to fight and kill him. And you can't tell Irenicus that his wrath against Ellesime is justified and anybody has a right to fight against the punishment he received. And do what you will but you can't join the Five. And even knowing that Melissan is a deceiver does not change your options in ToB.
For me the difference is that in SoD you have entire sequence where player is basically teased with possibility of switching sides. You never negotiate with Irenicus nor with Sarevok, but you do with Cealar, and game makes it clear that you don't really have to be in conflict. Caelar *wants you* to join, she doesn't have any beef with you. Sarevok perceives you as the threat and has no interest in parley. Irenicus steals your soul and it's not like you can share it with him - it's either you or him. The same goes with the Five - they want to be five top demigods of Bhaal, not six. But you don't face any of those problems with the Shining Lady and really, if you are good aligned Charname, joining them seems like a reasonable thing to do. Only obstacle I can see is poisoning influence of Haphernaan, but at this point you already have some documents that prove his insidiousness - but for some reason it doesn't matter. Really, after that point there are many stupid things that happen, but this the most infuriating moment for me. It's like being given some amazing weapon only to have it stolen immediately afterwards. Just... why?
It would in deed be possible for a mod to add *Alternatives* in SoD without impact on the overall flow of the game as such. Just brainstorming: - When you meet with Caelar the second time at Dead Man's Pass, you (given some conditions), get the option to overrule/convince your allies and go with her. - Haphernaan rages, but you convince Caelar about his betrayal plans, fight breaks out, you defeat the traitor and become allies. - You agree to perform the ritual and accompany Caelar to Avernus. The crusaders dissolve, the Flaming Fist moves into Dragonspear and secures it. - You fight your way through to the demon together with Caelar, free the uncle, Caelar takes responsibility for her errors and seals the portal like in original. - You return to surface, greeted hero again, celebrate good outcome. Night time murder and the rest of the original plot...
Most events would use existing globals, cutscenes etc. The big battle of Dragonspeare would not take place, you'd jump right to the setup where the troupes are already in the castle.
Just need to find a modder with some experience in such large scale variations of the game (Kish? Argent77? Roxanne?).
@Kusel I'm pretty sure you read the same discussion some times back about that idea. It's the plot line for the Cealar Return mod discussed at G3. If you played that alternative it would give you the chance in ToB to free Caelar from hell and have her join you. That way you had a party with all your old opponents Sarevok/Irenicus/Caelar against the Five and Meli. You pretty much know that Roxanne shelved that project when she found that @Artemius_I was already working on some Caelar mod.
@Kusel I'm pretty sure you read the same discussion some times back about that idea. It's the plot line for the Cealar Return mod discussed at G3. If you played that alternative it would give you the chance in ToB to free Caelar from hell and have her join you. That way you had a party with all your old opponents Sarevok/Irenicus/Caelar against the Five and Meli. You pretty much know that Roxanne shelved that project when she found that @Artemius_I was already working on some Caelar mod.
Absolutely right, I just couldn't remember where is was discussed. my outline was from memory and I may have missed a few things. Now that you remind me I know what it was. Only I can't find that thread anymore. Do you have a link?
Comments
You're wrong about her having ever worked on SoD or even beamdog.
They just were *inspired* by a lot from her BGT mod with the chapter between BG1 and BG2 and then some other old BGT mods with the hooded man and the mountain of doom that became a bhaal temple and that was from Drizzt Saga.
Anyway, if you put EET and all the mods into it, then SoD becomes more complete and feels like it belongs to the game. It's just like old BG1 really started to rock off when BG1NPC was added.
- The lost souls you bring to the Fugue Plane, that's in Sandrah Saga already
- The former Bhaal temple now overun by Cyric, Sandrah as well
- The apprentice opening a gate to hell where demons can leak through and then a sacrifice is needed by someone to close the seal from the other side? Isn't that Region of Terror, in the Spirit Soaring episode
- The way your NPCs can step in to solve quests due to their classes, again from Sandrah Saga
- You can only destroy an artifact by some special fire, again Region of Terror, the crystal
- Then Cealar herself with a crusade where she sacrifices armies for a *good* purpose, driven by her heritage and the idea such is in her family? And the need of a bhaalspawn to achieve that? Again Sandrah but misinterpreted, as Sandrah's motivation is not a selfish limited one but more like Prometheus.
That's going to be a long list, they really loved them big old mods and its kind of paying them respect. You only
steal fromget inspired from the best.Like they say in music business: We all *borrow* ideas, just make sure you take yours from the best sources.
To make clear - I don't say there is plagiarism or such, just guys playing all the old mods and liking them and afterwards sit down to write a sequel and all those ideas are just "in the air". You aren't even aware of it. The biggest hit singles that come out in music are those that sound like they've always been there naturally.
Also, by relating this I think you give mods a far too high input on the devs work - my 2 cents.
It's just that when beamdog started to renovate the games they made a lot of publicity themselves about modder's input.
The sidequests are great. And I do mean great. Like, the Dwarves of Dumathoin stands as my number one favorite side quest in the entire series:
-It has a nicely developed scenario
-It provides you with nice, unique items and has vastly different outcomes depending on your choices, and these even have influence, though pretty minor, on the main quest.
-It's quite long and well written, with well balanced difficulty
Besides that, there are different ways of progressing in the main plot. Some people blame the game for being linear. Well do tell me when in the BG series, the main quest is not linear, not totally guided, and dependent on your choice?
In the original BG, for example, alignment and alignment-based choices have literally 0 influence over the main story besides altering a few dialogs. Even in BG2, there are only two exceptions:
-Choosing with whom you side in chapter 3 gets you a different set of main quests, and based on that choice you don't get to ask Thieves for help against vampires in chapter 6. This is probably the best instance of RP actually mattering in the original BG series.
-Dialog options with the Solar in ToB gets you a different ending.
BG gets you under the impression it is not linear because it has super vast areas to explore, most of which are mostly empty with one or two npc of interest, but really there is nothing more linear than the BG1 plot. You're literally railroaded and your choices (e.g. Do you kill Rieltar? The following events could have been vastly different if Rieltar could actually survive the encounter) have 0 influence on how the game events unfolds. And neither do any of the sidequests. In that respect BG is a lot more linear than SoD.
So yeah, SoD has flaws, and I can totally understand why some people won't like it. The final plot twist nearly did that to me. But it definitely has great parts, really worth playing, and while some of the reproaches are founded, I find others, like linearity, for instance, to be unfounded.
SoD is really the only main plot that gives you choices.
BG1 is completely linear it just offers you countless sidetracks you can chose to follow the main plot. It's distraction but not alternatives.
BG2 has two choices - thieves or vampires and route into Underdark, portal or Seamon. Otherwise it's as linear as BG1
ToB has no real choices - you can chose on Sendaj or Abazigal first, if that is a choice. And then the final choice which has no effect at all except your own satisfaction.
The devs in SoD really have learned from the old game and gave you true alternatives here. Just the final chapter again is a bottleneck, but mods are already out there to open up.
they could have easily used another demon or not had the plot point at all.
And BTW neither did his name matter in IWD.
BTW Hopsi is German word for "Jumper" and very common name for pet rabbits.
Let's try an experiment.
There are two products.
Product A and Product B.
Product A is liked by most, Product B is not (craveat not making that claim, just for the sake of argument)
People who like Product B point out the similarities with Product A and the faults with Product A.
And at the end of the day it makes no difference to whether people then go on to enjoy Product B. What it will only ever do is diminish their enoyment of Product A, if anything.
You are correct, the Dwarves quest is a good quest. How and where it is incorporated in game diminishes the enjoyment for some would be my analysis. It becomes a chore because you have to complete it then and there if you want to play it at all. The lead in to it is unclear leaving some players feeling that they are doing something wrong.
Instead of defending that by pointing out what's wrong with BG/BG2, how about analysing what could be have been done better to ensure that more players enjoy, in this case, Product B.
You are far more likely to change people's opinions/reactions by acknowledging what's wrong because it leaves them the choice of moving past that. Rather than deflecting and making the argument that they should feel differently because of A,B and C.
You could be right, probably are, that BG/BG2 are just as linear. However what does that matter if the player, the consumer, doesn't have that reaction? Isn't made to feel as if they are on a track?
I said it in an earlier post, subtleties matter.
Despite Sarevok's *Join with me Brother/Sister* and Tamoko's plea to spare his life, it all ends with you having only options to fight and kill him.
And you can't tell Irenicus that his wrath against Ellesime is justified and anybody has a right to fight against the punishment he received.
And do what you will but you can't join the Five. And even knowing that Melissan is a deceiver does not change your options in ToB.
There's many examples in the game where you wish you had other choices...but it's *the show must gp on* and the protagonist is part of the show and must play the assigned role - they call it fate, but actually it's that the game has to have some limits or programming it would never end and it will never get published.
I'd rather dig around to see what is THERE than to lose time complaining what is NOT THERE. Everything can be improved but considering everything (after 5th or so SoD play) I find that pretty much good stuff is there.
The main plot was never the highlight in any of the campaigns.
And you can't tell Irenicus that his wrath against Ellesime is justified and anybody has a right to fight against the punishment he received.
And do what you will but you can't join the Five. And even knowing that Melissan is a deceiver does not change your options in ToB.
For me the difference is that in SoD you have entire sequence where player is basically teased with possibility of switching sides. You never negotiate with Irenicus nor with Sarevok, but you do with Cealar, and game makes it clear that you don't really have to be in conflict. Caelar *wants you* to join, she doesn't have any beef with you. Sarevok perceives you as the threat and has no interest in parley. Irenicus steals your soul and it's not like you can share it with him - it's either you or him. The same goes with the Five - they want to be five top demigods of Bhaal, not six.
But you don't face any of those problems with the Shining Lady and really, if you are good aligned Charname, joining them seems like a reasonable thing to do. Only obstacle I can see is poisoning influence of Haphernaan, but at this point you already have some documents that prove his insidiousness - but for some reason it doesn't matter.
Really, after that point there are many stupid things that happen, but this the most infuriating moment for me. It's like being given some amazing weapon only to have it stolen immediately afterwards. Just... why?
- When you meet with Caelar the second time at Dead Man's Pass, you (given some conditions), get the option to overrule/convince your allies and go with her.
- Haphernaan rages, but you convince Caelar about his betrayal plans, fight breaks out, you defeat the traitor and become allies.
- You agree to perform the ritual and accompany Caelar to Avernus. The crusaders dissolve, the Flaming Fist moves into Dragonspear and secures it.
- You fight your way through to the demon together with Caelar, free the uncle, Caelar takes responsibility for her errors and seals the portal like in original.
- You return to surface, greeted hero again, celebrate good outcome. Night time murder and the rest of the original plot...
Most events would use existing globals, cutscenes etc. The big battle of Dragonspeare would not take place, you'd jump right to the setup where the troupes are already in the castle.
Just need to find a modder with some experience in such large scale variations of the game (Kish? Argent77? Roxanne?).
I'm pretty sure you read the same discussion some times back about that idea. It's the plot line for the Cealar Return mod discussed at G3. If you played that alternative it would give you the chance in ToB to free Caelar from hell and have her join you. That way you had a party with all your old opponents Sarevok/Irenicus/Caelar against the Five and Meli.
You pretty much know that Roxanne shelved that project when she found that @Artemius_I was already working on some Caelar mod.
Now that you remind me I know what it was. Only I can't find that thread anymore. Do you have a link?