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  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,457
    edited January 2019

    Grond0 said:



    As you probably remember I felt (and feel) strongly about the policy of separating children from families. That was a GOP policy specifically aimed at discouraging immigration by inhumane means and many months later the effects of the earlier separations are still there (and a return to that policy is still being advocated by some of those in government). There have been numerous and blatant lies told to try and defend this (indefensible) policy - including about the children.

    It's not a problem to bring this subject up again, engaging with your views is actually one of the things I look forward to most in here, but honest question. Do you really think the media as an entire class would allow Trump to propagate patently false facts and narratives about his separation policy the way they were allowed to freely and recklessly disregard investigation and fact checking for the maga kids? Of course not, they are on that immediately. They obsessively nitpick his every word on any topic to shift for contradictions, however semantic and minute.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/21/president-trump-made-false-or-misleading-claims-his-first-two-years/?utm_term=.abe15b9ab75a

    It just seems clear to me that there is no other explanation. If they are so damn good at finding out what is fact from fiction when it serves their purposes, why do they then become such incompetent buffoons that the comment sections have the full story correct mere hours after the hit pieces come rolling in, when it again serves their purposes? I see too much self interest involved, and too consistent and wide spread a failure, to see this as mere incompetence.

    Normal failure of basic verification, which should be absolutely standard for all stories let alone media wide ones, is unethical. It becomes doubly so when you're punching down on ordinary people in the worst possible way.

    They interviewed the people from one side of the story, the one that confirmed their own biases, and the one that was also contrary to video evidence. *Why* did they only interview one side of the story? That to me is the worst example of malice in their representation. They didn't care about the facts. The kids were willing to talk. And later did, much to the anger of verified journo twitter.

    Let me put it this way. Is there a single story in the past 2 years- favorable to Trump or the right- that had to be retracted or had to issue a major correction from mainstream media outlets? I know of several the other way around, and several firings as well.

    If not for people on social media correcting the record almost instantly, "smirking racist teen surrounds and mocks Native American veteran-saint" would be the narrative in perpetuity, used as evidence for anything a given propagandist would want to convince you of at the time; Trump is radicalizing the kids, we have a white supremacist uprising in this country, it would have been a sidenote in half the stories on the Trump admin from then on.

    And that's the problem, they are so stuck on their own political narratives, because journalism as a profession is such an echo chamber, that they can't see beyond it and don't have any incentives to do so because until now nobody could challenge them.

    Nearly all my experience of US media is via this thread directly or searching for information referenced in this thread. Therefore I accept I don't have your depth of knowledge about how things are being reported. However, from the experience I do have I honestly don't see the problem the way you do.

    You've referred to the fact checking industry, which certainly works overtime when dealing with Trump's statements. However, I'm not sure it works faster to issue corrections than was done with this story. The traditional sort of sequence you get with a new story would be 'breaking news' online and flashed on screen reporting, e.g. what Trump has said. That's followed by news reporting, which is still mainly focused on what's said, before you get into the commentary considering whether what was said was accurate.

    I agree that sequencing of stories is less clear than it used to be and I think the main reason for that is that mainstream media are actively competing with social media to get stories out in shorter and shorter timeframes. I don't think you give enough weight to this in understanding why the media sometimes succumb to pressures to issue stories before they've investigated them fully. I agree with you though that that's unhealthy and I would prefer everyone to apply a more professional journalistic approach. However, I wasn't brought up with social media, so I don't suppose my attitudes are typical.

    In my experience, where the mainstream media have made an error they adjust the story pretty quickly. That was certainly done in this case. I did have a quick look at the Twitter feed you linked previously and saw sarcastic comments along the lines of how surprising it was that CNN had issued a corrected story so quickly. That wasn't surprising to me, but what I would expect based on past experience.

    My experience of conservative leaning media (like Fox News, local radio and evangelical broadcasts) is even sparser than what you're terming mainstream media, but what experience I have leads me to doubt that obvious errors in a story would be corrected any more quickly than was done in this case. I should also make the point that I don't think that 'mainstream media' is a good description for the organisations you're referring to. Fox News for instance is just as mainstream as other news channels in terms of the coverage it offers and the size of its audience - it just takes a different slant to both the stories it covers and the way it covers them. Perhaps others can help me out here, but I would be very surprised if there were no stories that Fox News has covered in the past 2 years that have later proven to be incorrect.

    To me the problem is less related to liberal media using confirmation bias to slant their coverage, but that this is done across all media. In fact I would say the degree to which coverage is slanted is greater in relation to the conservative media I mentioned above than liberal media. I would actually prefer it if broadcast news organisations were required to observe political balance, as used to be the case. That would provide some extra incentive to check facts before broadcasting a story - however, I don't imagine there's any going back on that issue ...

    Edit: I agree with you by the way that the industry trying to count up the lies Trump has told (like the Washington Post list you reference) is counter-productive. There's certainly no shortage of lies, but keeping numerical lists provides an incentive to include as lies things like different interpretations, out of context remarks and poor use of language. I think it would be better to concentrate on the more important and specific issues rather than looking to boost overall numbers to fit a particular narrative.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    edited January 2019
    Grond0 said:

    Grond0 said:



    As you probably remember I felt (and feel) strongly about the policy of separating children from families. That was a GOP policy specifically aimed at discouraging immigration by inhumane means and many months later the effects of the earlier separations are still there (and a return to that policy is still being advocated by some of those in government). There have been numerous and blatant lies told to try and defend this (indefensible) policy - including about the children.

    It's not a problem to bring this subject up again, engaging with your views is actually one of the things I look forward to most in here, but honest question. Do you really think the media as an entire class would allow Trump to propagate patently false facts and narratives about his separation policy the way they were allowed to freely and recklessly disregard investigation and fact checking for the maga kids? Of course not, they are on that immediately. They obsessively nitpick his every word on any topic to shift for contradictions, however semantic and minute.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/21/president-trump-made-false-or-misleading-claims-his-first-two-years/?utm_term=.abe15b9ab75a

    It just seems clear to me that there is no other explanation. If they are so damn good at finding out what is fact from fiction when it serves their purposes, why do they then become such incompetent buffoons that the comment sections have the full story correct mere hours after the hit pieces come rolling in, when it again serves their purposes? I see too much self interest involved, and too consistent and wide spread a failure, to see this as mere incompetence.

    Normal failure of basic verification, which should be absolutely standard for all stories let alone media wide ones, is unethical. It becomes doubly so when you're punching down on ordinary people in the worst possible way.

    They interviewed the people from one side of the story, the one that confirmed their own biases, and the one that was also contrary to video evidence. *Why* did they only interview one side of the story? That to me is the worst example of malice in their representation. They didn't care about the facts. The kids were willing to talk. And later did, much to the anger of verified journo twitter.

    Let me put it this way. Is there a single story in the past 2 years- favorable to Trump or the right- that had to be retracted or had to issue a major correction from mainstream media outlets? I know of several the other way around, and several firings as well.

    If not for people on social media correcting the record almost instantly, "smirking racist teen surrounds and mocks Native American veteran-saint" would be the narrative in perpetuity, used as evidence for anything a given propagandist would want to convince you of at the time; Trump is radicalizing the kids, we have a white supremacist uprising in this country, it would have been a sidenote in half the stories on the Trump admin from then on.

    And that's the problem, they are so stuck on their own political narratives, because journalism as a profession is such an echo chamber, that they can't see beyond it and don't have any incentives to do so because until now nobody could challenge them.

    Nearly all my experience of US media is via this thread directly or searching for information referenced in this thread. Therefore I accept I don't have your depth of knowledge about how things are being reported. However, from the experience I do have I honestly don't see the problem the way you do.

    You've referred to the fact checking industry, which certainly works overtime when dealing with Trump's statements. However, I'm not sure it works faster to issue corrections than was done with this story. The traditional sort of sequence you get with a new story would be 'breaking news' online and flashed on screen reporting, e.g. what Trump has said. That's followed by news reporting, which is still mainly focused on what's said, before you get into the commentary considering whether what was said was accurate.

    I agree that sequencing of stories is less clear than it used to be and I think the main reason for that is that mainstream media are actively competing with social media to get stories out in shorter and shorter timeframes. I don't think you give enough weight to this in understanding why the media sometimes succumb to pressures to issue stories before they've investigated them fully. I agree with you though that that's unhealthy and I would prefer everyone to apply a more professional journalistic approach. However, I wasn't brought up with social media, so I don't suppose my attitudes are typical.

    In my experience, where the mainstream media have made an error they adjust the story pretty quickly. That was certainly done in this case. I did have a quick look at the Twitter feed you linked previously and saw sarcastic comments along the lines of how surprising it was that CNN had issued a corrected story so quickly. That wasn't surprising to me, but what I would expect based on past experience.

    My experience of conservative leaning media (like Fox News, local radio and evangelical broadcasts) is even sparser than what you're terming mainstream media, but what experience I have leads me to doubt that obvious errors in a story would be corrected any more quickly than was done in this case. I should also make the point that I don't think that 'mainstream media' is a good description for the organisations you're referring to. Fox News for instance is just as mainstream as other news channels in terms of the coverage it offers and the size of its audience - it just takes a different slant to both the stories it covers and the way it covers them. Perhaps others can help me out here, but I would be very surprised if there were no stories that Fox News has covered in the past 2 years that have later proven to be incorrect.

    To me the problem is less related to liberal media using confirmation bias to slant their coverage, but that this is done across all media. In fact I would say the degree to which coverage is slanted is greater in relation to the conservative media I mentioned above than liberal media. I would actually prefer it if broadcast news organisations were required to observe political balance, as used to be the case. That would provide some extra incentive to check facts before broadcasting a story - however, I don't imagine there's any going back on that issue ...
    My main problem is - how is this even news? 24 hour news and social media are totally blowing things out of any sort of proportion. What's next?

    Six year old Trump supporter pushes girl down on the playground!

    Pre-teen Trump supporter calls glasses wearing brown-skinned Lebanese cat-lover '4-eyes'!
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    It's news because the message was screwed from the beginning and media is attempting to fix it.

    If the kid was just an ass-hat interrupting an indigenous march, this story would have already blown over with maybe a little tidbit of him and a couple of his friends being suspended/expelled giving all those left-leaning kid punchers a bigger smug look on their face.

    What kinda pisses me off is that out of all the players involved in this story, I think the Hebrew Israelites get the most out of it. They now have had international exposure to advance their hate spreading cause which will only grow the group.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    Biden played key role in pushing US to take hardline stances on crime in 1990s, and now he's apologizing as 2020 looms

    https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-apologizes-for-pushing-hardline-laws-on-crime-immigration-in-1990s-2019-1?utm_content=bufferf6228&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-politics

    Student tackled by police for 'stealing' own car settles suit for $1.25M

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/student-tackled-police-stealing-own-car-settles-suit-1-25m-n961526?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma
    The incident was one of several high-profile cases in the Chicago area in recent years involving violent encounters between police officers and black men.

    An Open Apology to the Covington Catholic MAGA Hat Harassment Team

    https://www.theroot.com/an-open-apology-to-the-covington-catholic-maga-hat-hara-1831957176?fbclid=IwAR3dyMIW8jkp2AP_4a64b7eEI-Xyu2wJXcdlZHIJCeCrZbtYBc9MxB3nI40

    Video: Florida Man Pulls Gun on Black Kids Riding Bikes at #BikesUpGunsDown Event

    https://www.theroot.com/video-florida-man-pulls-gun-on-black-kids-riding-bikes-1831952798

    Catholic Priests Ran Child Porn Ring Out Of Pittsburgh Diocese

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2018/08/catholic-priests-ran-child-porn-ring-out-of-pittsburgh-diocese/?fbclid=IwAR3Bl_lmrK48xq8AvqTbbAH0y_LuZKmX17yybBhxnYfxTMsuSitUlW6VVn8

    Kamala Harris’ Career as AG, was built on Truancy and Separation of Black Children and Families #SeparatingFamilies

    https://medium.com/@politicspeach/kamala-harris-career-as-ag-was-built-on-truancy-and-separation-of-black-children-and-families-d5dbcc5fde2f?fbclid=IwAR31PhxochQNoF-51uKApC17rClJvEntEvxTbDbfrSkMY1WePXijlaw3APE

    Canada will recognize Juan Guaido as Venezuela’s president, follows move by U.S. to do the same

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4878808/trump-venezuela-president-juan-guaido/?utm_source=notification/

    Real estate agent shot dead while trying to evict tenants

    https://nypost.com/2019/01/21/real-estate-agent-shot-dead-while-trying-to-evict-tenants/?fbclid=IwAR2B5oXNfV-8iOnchpiuv3tXTRGsp6nLDrMTPvu7dKVwqrOLngYPaEnkvX4

    ADL Report: Right-Wingers Committed Every 2018 Extremist Murder In US

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/anti-defamation-league-report-right-wing-extremists-2018-murders?fbclid=IwAR3VEIerWz5MNS5_WoU0Gp7shrAZCcyDZTjTbSOg8RFI5914yQqgIony-2Y

    image
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2019
    Pelosi is now putting the pressure on Trump where it really hurts. He craves NOTHING more than his TV audience for the State of the Union. She is now flatly denying him that opportunity until the government opens. Trump is saying he is going to show up anyway. He has NO authority to do this unless she allows it. As Trevor Noah just said, the floor of the House of Representatives is not a dressing room of underage Miss Teen USA contestants. She knows EXACTLY what hits him where he lives. Trump has never taken "no" for an answer in his life, including from women. Time to force him to do so. There is no way to get him to do anything other than to f**k with his ego.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I'm guessing he'd just deliver the address someplace else. Since the State of the Union address is a public speech by custom rather than constitutional mandate, there's no reason he couldn't just send the letter to Congress and read another copy aloud in the Oval Office in front of a camera.
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    4 charged in plot to attack upstate New York Muslim community of Islamberg

    One of them invited Trump to his Eagle scout ceremony. My question is, how does he become an Eagle scout at the same time he's posting "Kill all Muslims" to Twitter and Instagram?
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    edited January 2019
    @Balrog99 "My main problem is - how is this even news? 24 hour news and social media are totally blowing things out of any sort of proportion. What's next?"


    It's human nature to identify with your political affiliation, among other things, and to defend that identity against something that threatens it. Observe how your mind reacts to a threat to your identity. It can be very eye opening to catch it in action! The moment you declare an affinity for x, you have created a dislike for y. Can you just observe without being emotional? What does this emotion do really? Does it affect anything besides creating an intolerance for the other? Anything besides poisoning yourself?
    EDIT: I am not directing this paragraph to the poster, in case that wasn't clear :)

    I think we need to develop an observational attitude towards current events with less emotion. I think it starts with examining our opinions, earnestly taking stock of how secure we are in them, and how they were formed. I was a diehard liberal. As such it was very easy for me to see the distortion from conservative talk radio and Fox News, but very difficult to see the distortion from CNN and NYT, WP, et al. However, I can now see it and once seen, it is difficult to unsee. We are being manipulated hearts and minds by a sophisticated media that understands us better than we understand ourselves.

    I have friends and family from all over the spectrum. The ones that have the most emotion about it also consume the most media (right and left). I had to hear how Barrack Obama was literally the antichrist (they really believed that!) for years and now the same with Trump from the other side. When their people are in power they can just hit the snooze button, content that all is well, but are roused to hysteria the moment they are not in control.

    This image of the Catholic school kid and the Native American is absolutely ripe with potential for an emotional reaction. I saw this take on Twitter (from someone I do not know or follow) and was impressed by the detachment:

    “Why was the Maga hat kid standing so close to the Native America man hitting the drums”

    Couldn’t you ask the question different way?

    Why is the Native American man standing so close to the MAGA kid?

    The kids did nothing wrong. The Native American man did nothing wrong. pic.twitter.com/R0XDtUXIgx

    — KEEM ? (@KEEMSTAR) January 19, 2019

    It was such rare thing to observe a nontake take.

    I find it a positive that I no longer claim to know anything. My attitude toward ignorance has been refined over the years. We have been manipulated and outright lied to for so long by so many, that I have idea what truth is anymore. I vote with the best of my ability to make the world better and let it go after that. I think one of the most dangerous facets of this modern era is the absolute certainty with which people hold their opinions with little understanding of how they formed them in the first place.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    BillyYank said:

    4 charged in plot to attack upstate New York Muslim community of Islamberg

    One of them invited Trump to his Eagle scout ceremony. My question is, how does he become an Eagle scout at the same time he's posting "Kill all Muslims" to Twitter and Instagram?

    Amazing with how "fringe" Alex Jones is he keeps showing up as the original catalyst for terrorist incidents, such as a guy walking into a pizza parlor with a gun because he was convinced there was a child sex ring in the basement and these fine young gentlemen here.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    More gnus

    Trump is completely obsessed with chyrons

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/21/1828175/-Former-White-House-staffer-says-Trump-is-completely-obsessed-with-chyrons?detail=emaildkre

    First Tweets: Individual-1 claims racism is unifying... just like his drive-by at the MLK memorial

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828353/-First-Tweets-Individual-1-claims-racism-is-unifying-just-like-his-drive-by-at-the-MLK-memorial?detail=emaildkre

    Principal supported dance coach who allegedly told student her 'skin was too dark' to dance

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/20/1827886/-Principal-supports-high-school-dance-coach-who-told-student-her-skin-was-too-dark?detail=emaildkre
    Hasn't this guy heard of Josephine Baker? or Alvin Ailey?

    After spending his first two weeks in the minority, Pennsylvania Republican resigns from House

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/17/1827096/-After-spending-his-first-two-weeks-in-the-minority-Pennsylvania-Republican-resigns-from-House

    Giuliani tops a weekend of jaw-dropping confessions with a genuine John Dean moment: There are tapes

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828360/-Giuliani-tops-a-weekend-of-jaw-dropping-confessions-with-a-genuine-John-Dean-moment-there-are-tapes?detail=emaildkre
    Then he had to take it back a minute later.

    Trump spends two minutes at Dr. King memorial, doesn't mention the man

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/21/1828228/-Trump-spends-two-minutes-at-Martin-Luther-King-Jr-Memorial-doesn-t-mention-Dr-King?detail=emaildkre

    Tulsi Gabbard claims Dems partially to blame for shutdown

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/20/1827969/-Bye-Felicia-Tulsi-Gabbard-claims-Dems-partially-to-blame-for-shutdown?detail=emaildkre

    GOP lawmaker who's now a Democrat says: I no longer have 'that pit in my stomach'

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/21/1828305/-Defected-Republican-Barbara-Bollier-says-for-the-first-time-I-don-t-have-that-pit-in-my-stomach?detail=emaildkre

    Trump, McConnell offer another white supremacist wish-list bill as 'compromise' to reopen government

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828479/-Trump-McConnell-offer-another-White-Supremacist-wish-list-bill-as-compromise-to-reopen-government?detail=emaildkre

    Historian ponders McConnell's role as a 'gravedigger of American democracy'

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/21/1826960/-Historian-ponders-McConnell-s-role-as-a-gravedigger-of-American-democracy?detail=emaildkre

    Hospitals 'furious' at Trump's Medicaid block grant proposal

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/21/1827149/-Hospitals-furious-at-Trump-s-Medicaid-block-grant-proposal?detail=emaildkre

    An amazing admission by a former FBI official

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/20/1828039/-An-amazing-admission-by-a-former-FBI-official?detail=emaildkre

    More House Republicans are getting cold feet about Trump's shutdown. Our new tracker tells you which

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/11/1825495/-More-House-Republicans-are-getting-cold-feet-about-Trump-s-shutdown-Our-new-tracker-tells-you-which?detail=emaildksp

    Fishing Groups, Winnemem Wintu Tribe Sue CA Department of Water Resources to Protect Delta Flows

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/17/1827156/-Fishing-Groups-Winnemem-Wintu-Tribe-Sue-CA-Department-of-Water-Resources-to-Protect-Delta-Flows?detail=emailLL

    Michigan Poor People’s Campaign activists receive trial date following protest arrests

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/18/1827326/-Michigan-Poor-People-s-Campaign-activists-receive-trial-date-following-protest-arrests?detail=emailLL

    Trump's government shutdown spurs inmates to hunger strike at NYC jail

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/16/1826706/-Trump-s-government-shutdown-spurs-inmates-to-hunger-strike-at-NYC-jail?detail=emailLL
    Because they can't receive visitors

    Survey on Kavanaugh, Abortion: Most Americans, Half of Republicans, Don't Want Roe Overturned

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/17/1827031/-Survey-on-Kavanaugh-Abortion-Most-Americans-Half-of-Republicans-Don-t-Want-Roe-Overturned?detail=emailLL

    Indians 101: Forced Christianity 150 Years Ago, 1869

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/15/1826240/-Indians-101-Forced-Christianity-150-Years-Ago-1869?detail=emailLL
    Ya-ta-hey

    Border Patrol agent who confessed to killing four women last year pleads not guilty

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/14/1826149/-Border-Patrol-agent-who-confessed-to-killing-four-women-last-year-pleads-not-guilty?detail=emailLL
    Instead of one more penny for the administration’s mass-deportation agenda, what these women and others who have died under the watch of agents from federal immigration agencies need is justice, because senseless deaths tied to Customs and Border Protection and to Immigration and Customs Enforcement have continued, with no accountability and no answers.

    Study: Media covered Rep. Tlaib's 'motherf%cker' five times more often than Rep. King's racism

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/15/1826458/-Study-Media-spent-five-times-more-time-covering-Rep-Tlaib-s-motherf-cker-than-Rep-King-s-racism?detail=emaildkre

    How the press keeps whitewashing the racism that fuels Trump's base

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828390/-How-the-press-keeps-whitewashing-the-racism-that-fuels-Trump-s-base?detail=emaildkre
    The Trump voter journalism genre, featuring (white) locals from red counties inside red states assembled at local diners blindly extolling Trump's virtues (“I think he’s doing a great job”; "Hitting it out of the ballpark”), has become so bountiful, so predictable, and so never-ending that it's turned into something of a Twitter punch line.

    Apprentice Producer Mark Burnett Involved in Kremlin Pay-for-Play Sleaziness

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828644/-Apprentice-Producer-Mark-Burnett-Involved-in-Kremlin-Pay-for-Play-Sleaziness?detail=emaildkre

    Colo. Dem Rep "No Question Kavanaugh Committed Perjury During Confirmation Hearings"

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828526/-Colo-Dem-Rep-No-Question-Kavanaugh-Committed-Perjury-During-Confirmation-Hearings?detail=emaildkre

    Alarming FBI agents union report details the ways the shutdown is putting national security at risk

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828448/-Alarming-FBI-Agents-Assoc-report-details-the-ways-the-shutdown-is-putting-national-security-at-risk?detail=emaildkre

    Cohen is still going to talk to Congress, but not about everything

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828455/-Cohen-is-still-going-to-talk-to-Congress-but-not-about-everything?detail=emaildkre

    Guy yelling N-word brandishes gun at kids on bikes during 'wheels up guns down' event

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828460/-Guy-yelling-N-word-brandishes-gun-at-kids-on-bikes-during-wheels-up-guns-down-event?detail=emaildkre
    Having a concealed weapon is against the law where the incident took place. But brandishing a weapon and threatening with a weapon are also crimes. Bartlett seems to have been given a pass on that. That’s a big pass, considering that there are hundreds of black men who have lost their lives for brandishing cell phones.

    Colorado man arrested on terrorism charge after threatening mass shooting at Women's March

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828382/-Colorado-man-arrested-on-terrorism-charge-after-threatening-mass-shooting-at-Women-s-March?detail=emaildkre

    Covington Catholic: It Could Have Been Me

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828373/-Covington-Catholic-It-Could-Have-Been-Me?detail=emaildkre

    Still fuming, Trump contemplating giving his State of the Union anyway—but not to Congress

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828451/-Still-fuming-Trump-contemplating-giving-his-State-of-the-Union-anyway-but-not-to-Congress?detail=emaildkre
    Well, this would be spectacular. Several news outlets are now reporting that Donald Trump, still absolutely fuming over House Speaker Nancy Pelosi asking that he delay his Jan. 29 State of the Union address until the government shutdown is over, is contemplating giving his speech on that day anyway! Maybe not to Congress itself, but somewhere!

    Lady Gaga stops concert to pummel Mike Pence's Christianity and Trump's shutdown—the crowd goes wild

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/22/1828325/-Lady-Gaga-to-Mike-Pence-You-are-the-worst-representation-of-what-it-means-to-be-a-Christian?detail=emaildkre

    5 dead after shooting inside Florida bank, suspect now in custody

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4879544/sebring-florida-shooting-bank/?utm_source=notification/

    image
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    BillyYank said:

    4 charged in plot to attack upstate New York Muslim community of Islamberg

    One of them invited Trump to his Eagle scout ceremony. My question is, how does he become an Eagle scout at the same time he's posting "Kill all Muslims" to Twitter and Instagram?

    He knows how to tie a kick-ass knot?
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    LadyRhian said:


    image

    I am sorry, but no. You do not get to redefine what words mean internet meme creator.

    Racism
    1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
    2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
    3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

    Sexism
    1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles.
    2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women.
    3. ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women; misogyny.

    Oppression does not equate in any of the definitions of either term (maybe the second one in sexism, but I'll get to that). Stop with this rephrasing bull shit. It helps NO ONE and just divides the debate further.

    The one place where you can use the term oppression is when talking about equality or current discrimination but it is not the only way these terms can be applied.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Here's an interesting tidbit.

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/23/health/arizona-woman-birth-vegetative-state/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    This guy isn't at all what I expected. I was kind of figuring he'd turn out to be more like Buck in Kill Bill. Just goes to show there's no perfect profile for these assholes...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2019
    The second definition of racism is EXACTLY what is described in that post, and is, BY FAR, the most significant to the situation here in the United States, and it isn't even close. So while the other definitions are CORRECT and EXIST, there is nothing even in the same solar system as what happend to African-Americans from slavery, to the abandonment of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, and being nearly completely phased out of nearly ALL the government programs of the 20th century that created middle-class wealth and home ownership, to say nothing of the criminal justice system and the right to vote. And it's absurd not to contextualize the difference between them and their actual tangible impact. Comparing individual acts of personal racism against white people to the centuries-long systematic oppression that has existed in this country is like comparing a firecracker to a nuclear bomb. And then having some people argue with a straight face that the firecracker isn't only just as bad, but MORE destructive. And anyone who thinks that way, and frankly everyone else too, should read this to understand why trying to equate the two is so ridiculous:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

    Seriously, take the time, read the whole thing. And if you don't immediately think "wow, I had no idea how bad and deep this goes" then there is really no reaching you on the issue. And then ask yourself how many decades or centuries it would take to rectify what was done. And then realize the answer is "never", because not only do we refuse to do anything about it, we refuse to even DISCUSS it on the terms it deserves to be.
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    Trump Says He Will Explore Alternatives After Pelosi Says No State of the Union Until Shutdown Ends

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/23/us/politics/trump-state-of-union-pelosi-letter.html

    Halfway Through the Trump Presidency, the Resistance Is Winning

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/at-halftime-of-the-trump-presidency-the-resistance-is-winning?fbclid=IwAR3RLeqgl3brKbvbrChdrPTd4IXfudgDHbfJJgFi-vGHMTQDUO1gsPvLi5s

    Millions of Americans Flood Into Mexico for Health Care — the Human Caravan You Haven’t Heard About

    https://truthout.org/articles/millions-of-americans-flood-into-mexico-for-health-care/

    Baby Tortoises Show Up In The Galapagos Islands For The First Time In 100 Years!

    https://blog.therainforestsite.greatergood.com/baby-tortoises/?utm_source=ggn-crosspost&utm_medium=social-fb&utm_content=link&utm_campaign=baby-tortoises&utm_term=2438852&fbclid=IwAR3T3sZOHusGh8UfN-HQxvCG5g5XHXVT7fTsz9cP12COJdyPui8zrzIGOuk

    The Blameless Burden: Scapegoating in Dysfunctional Families

    https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/blameless-burden-scapegoating-in-dysfunctional-families-0130174?fbclid=IwAR1AM2lYXb9xUAkvBnEkFmsLJTPauS8Hx2T4LZIUqt2aQ332HvqV-bUVpmk

    The Defense Dept. Is About to Fire More Than 13,700 Trans People

    https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2019/1/23/defense-dept-about-fire-more-13700-trans-people?fbclid=IwAR1qzWSPFrZX-IbW_TAHMzDhKqQ6Qpk2dZWMIA_NSb5nqEGXoJjZGTJfd6k

    Andrew Cuomo Signs Abortion Bill Into Law, Codifying Roe v. Wade

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/andrew-cuomo-abortion-bill_us_5c480bebe4b0b66936751a47?fbclid=IwAR3gsPG0Xb32Ef0pw-a_f7eGMedqLgokuSWqXu3T56qcfZKLcUMQJzfCacI
    The law will protect the landmark decision in the event that it is overturned by the Supreme Court.

    Investigation underway after suspicious packages found at Diocese of Covington

    http://www.fox19.com/2019/01/23/authorities-investigate-suspicious-packages-diocese-covington/?fbclid=IwAR1GgOBYljOJIy0Shy33KuajrSnwnB_vv8MQX64q8_KTNPHW4ZXfdsiVxsQ
    No, this is not the right thing to do.

    A dozen protesters arrested outside McConnell's office during shutdown sit-in

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/23/politics/arrests-mcconnell-office-protesters/index.html?no-st=1548285653
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964


    Let me put it this way. Is there a single story in the past 2 years- favorable to Trump or the right- that had to be retracted or had to issue a major correction from mainstream media outlets? I know of several the other way around, and several firings as well.

    Is there a single story that came from right wing media that was favorable to Trump that wasn't later contradicted by facts and evidence? Did any of those propaganda outlets ever correct their story?
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964

    I'm guessing he'd just deliver the address someplace else. Since the State of the Union address is a public speech by custom rather than constitutional mandate, there's no reason he couldn't just send the letter to Congress and read another copy aloud in the Oval Office in front of a camera.

    I hear McDonalds has a close relationship with the President. He should do it there.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    edited January 2019

    I'm guessing he'd just deliver the address someplace else. Since the State of the Union address is a public speech by custom rather than constitutional mandate, there's no reason he couldn't just send the letter to Congress and read another copy aloud in the Oval Office in front of a camera.

    I hear McDonalds has a close relationship with the President. He should do it there.
    How 'bout a nice fireside chat a'la Roosevelt?




  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited January 2019



    I don't think anti-white sentiment is a serious threat to my interests (I just find it annoying), but I'm not going to manipulate the words we use in order to change the tone of the discussion.



    I used to think it was benign in and of itself but set a dangerous precedent that was bound to have damaging consequences down the road. Now, I think it can be argued we are already here.

    When you have the kind of bigoted opinions about whites and especially rural or conservative whites that so many major players on the left seem to harbor, it doesn't take long before those nasty opinions turn into skewed judgement and prejudice. I know you won't particularly agree that this is the cause of this latest media scandal, but I think it would be hard to rule out that it doesn't at least play a part.

    I mean the anti white kind of stuff never ends in the media. It only gets more mainstream, promoted by ever more "respectable" publications.

    "Hagerman's book is a careful, painful and convincing argument that when white people give their children advantages, they are often disadvantaging others. Racism is so hard to overturn, in part, because white people prop it up when they work to make sure their children succeed."



    I really think messages like this have particularly nasty premises and lead to pretty awful things.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    Grond0 said:



    I agree that sequencing of stories is less clear than it used to be and I think the main reason for that is that mainstream media are actively competing with social media to get stories out in shorter and shorter timeframes. I don't think you give enough weight to this in understanding why the media sometimes succumb to pressures to issue stories before they've investigated them fully. I agree with you though that that's unhealthy and I would prefer everyone to apply a more professional journalistic approach. However, I wasn't brought up with social media, so I don't suppose my attitudes are typical.

    This is certainly true and a valid perspective. The lightning fast information age makes keeping up harder than ever.

    In this case I don't think I take their corrections as in much good faith, however. They were basically forced to lest they lose all credibility.

    I will add this however. Irresponsible and reckless accusations, insults, and harassment campaigns against ordinary folks who have a really tough time defending themselves are not made "all good" by corrections. Journalists should be aware of their power to stir up the mob and should curtail that sort of thing, not encourage it. Jumping the gun and getting it wrong while you are at it definitely falls into the "encouraging it" category.

    I mean, CNN last year threatened some ordinary people with doxxing and made them apologize over a stupid meme because it made fun of them! They wield the power of shame and social pressure over people's heads for their own gain. I know I was hot about this when it happened.

    "CNN is not publishing "HanA**holeSolo's" name because he is a private citizen who has issued an extensive statement of apology, showed his remorse by saying he has taken down all his offending posts, and because he said he is not going to repeat this ugly behavior on social media again. In addition, he said his statement could serve as an example to others not to do the same.


    CNN reserves the right to publish his identity should any of that change."

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/04/politics/kfile-reddit-user-trump-tweet/index.html

    So, do I think news media folks are ethical people who are above trying to hurt people they disagree with on a political level, for that reason? I don't.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659


    I really think messages like this have particularly nasty premises and lead to pretty awful things.

    I dont. I've seen plenty of parents justify keeping poor, disproportionately African American kids out of their nicer, newer schools in order to ensure that their students are receiving the best education their tax dollars can buy. They probably justify it as good parenting. Instead, they treat it as a zero-sum game that inevitably leaves minorities and the poor (those with the least power to wield) perpetually disadvantaged.




    I agree that this meme is pushing too far. It's an attempt to arbitrarily label and control terms when there isnt a need to. In fact - I think it does a disservice to those most affected by racism (which isnt white people) and sexism (which isnt men) because it gives white men the illusion that everyone is equally likely to suffer the effects of racism or sexism.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited January 2019


    I really think messages like this have particularly nasty premises and lead to pretty awful things.

    I dont. I've seen plenty of parents justify keeping poor, disproportionately African American kids out of their nicer, newer schools in order to ensure that their students are receiving the best education their tax dollars can buy. They probably justify it as good parenting. Instead, they treat it as a zero-sum game that inevitably leaves minorities and the poor (those with the least power to wield) perpetually disadvantaged.

    Did we read the same thing? NBC is pushing the idea that giving your kids *private school educations* and *tutors in public school* or *community service* perpetuates racism. Just trying to do the right thing for your kid, and literally nothing else.

    "Yet, as Hagerman told me, "all of these families in their own ways were participating in the reproduction of racial inequality." Children were sent to private school, or when they went to public school benefited from private tutors or enrichment classes. Even community service can reproduce racist ideas."
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited January 2019



    Did we read the same thing?

    I was specifically referring to the message you quoted:



    "Hagerman's book is a careful, painful and convincing argument that when white people give their children advantages, they are often disadvantaging others. Racism is so hard to overturn, in part, because white people prop it up when they work to make sure their children succeed."

    This statement isnt inherently false. See what I said above. I'm not endorsing every argument made in the article, nor that book.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    The second definition of racism is EXACTLY what is described in that post, and is, BY FAR, the most significant to the situation here in the United States, and it isn't even close. So while the other definitions are CORRECT and EXIST, there is nothing even in the same solar system as what happend to African-Americans from slavery, to the abandonment of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, and being nearly completely phased out of nearly ALL the government programs of the 20th century that created middle-class wealth and home ownership, to say nothing of the criminal justice system and the right to vote. And it's absurd not to contextualize the difference between them and their actual tangible impact. Comparing individual acts of personal racism against white people to the centuries-long systematic oppression that has existed in this country is like comparing a firecracker to a nuclear bomb. And then having some people argue with a straight face that the firecracker isn't only just as bad, but MORE destructive. And anyone who thinks that way, and frankly everyone else too, should read this to understand why trying to equate the two is so ridiculous:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

    Seriously, take the time, read the whole thing. And if you don't immediately think "wow, I had no idea how bad and deep this goes" then there is really no reaching you on the issue. And then ask yourself how many decades or centuries it would take to rectify what was done. And then realize the answer is "never", because not only do we refuse to do anything about it, we refuse to even DISCUSS it on the terms it deserves to be.

    Great, but it still racist to say something like:

    “Hey cracker, what’cha doing with that basketball? You think you’re Larry Bird or something? Go play tennis like all them other over privileged lilly-asses.”

    And a person should be able to call out said racism, because it just further divides us instead of bringing us together. When we walk around on egg shells because we do not want be gas lit or subjected to what-aboutism it doesn’t help anything and actually allows people to think they have the right to talk to people like that.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    University of Oklahoma says students involved in blackface video 'will not return to campus'

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/19/us/ou-blackface-video/index.html?fbclid=IwAR3HA9Hzx8NfP76cBCzePvJc1TKlq9w6tWyWskM8yVy6NWzV7eIfearnwaU
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    LadyRhian said:

    University of Oklahoma says students involved in blackface video 'will not return to campus'

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/19/us/ou-blackface-video/index.html?fbclid=IwAR3HA9Hzx8NfP76cBCzePvJc1TKlq9w6tWyWskM8yVy6NWzV7eIfearnwaU
    Well, at least social media is exposing stupidity. It still amazes me that the younger generation doesn't realize yet that the internet is not private. Maybe it's for the best. This kind of idiocy used to be private and that just allowed it to propagate.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2019
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited January 2019


    I really think messages like this have particularly nasty premises and lead to pretty awful things.

    I dont. I've seen plenty of parents justify keeping poor, disproportionately African American kids out of their nicer, newer schools in order to ensure that their students are receiving the best education their tax dollars can buy. They probably justify it as good parenting. Instead, they treat it as a zero-sum game that inevitably leaves minorities and the poor (those with the least power to wield) perpetually disadvantaged.

    Did we read the same thing? NBC is pushing the idea that giving your kids *private school educations* and *tutors in public school* or *community service* perpetuates racism. Just trying to do the right thing for your kid, and literally nothing else.

    "Yet, as Hagerman told me, "all of these families in their own ways were participating in the reproduction of racial inequality." Children were sent to private school, or when they went to public school benefited from private tutors or enrichment classes. Even community service can reproduce racist ideas."
    NBC is hardly "pushing" the idea. They reported in the publication of a book with a somewhat startling message.

    Further, it seems pretty clear to me that the message is true. That in fact everything you've mention in your last couple posts is true:

    When you have the kind of bigoted opinions about whites and especially rural or conservative whites that so many major players on the left seem to harbor, it doesn't take long before those nasty opinions turn into skewed judgement and prejudice. I know you won't particularly agree that this is the cause of this latest media scandal, but I think it would be hard to rule out that it doesn't at least play a part.

    I mean the anti white kind of stuff never ends in the media. It only gets more mainstream, promoted by ever more "respectable" publications.

    "Hagerman's book is a careful, painful and convincing argument that when white people give their children advantages, they are often disadvantaging others. Racism is so hard to overturn, in part, because white people prop it up when they work to make sure their children succeed."

    I think Hagerman is more or less correct - and my concurrence is not because I'm racist or, if you prefer, bigoted against white people. I don't see any evidence of bigotry against white people by any "major players on the Left."

    Hagerman is talking about systemic racism. It's not personal bigotry or prejudice; it's the societal result of generations of bigotry and prejudice.


    I would be extremely interested in knowing your justification for classifying the hiring of tutors for your kids or sending them to private schools or allowing them to do community service as true examples of systemic racism.

    To me it is such a plainly absurd notion as to be comparable to moon landing conspiracies and the Flat Earth Society.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    Also, I object to the framing of "whiteness" itself. That, to me, seems like an inherently racist way to phrase something, as if particular attitudes like "ignorance of racial and social matters" or "putting your kids into private schools" are somehow stereo-typically "white" things. We just don't use that sort of terminology for anyone else because it would be deemed offensive.
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