To be honest, this game is simply Divinity 3 with different mathematics under the hood. I'm really unimpressed. They barely seem to have made an effort to make it feel like something other than Divinity 3.
On top of the sheer hands-on gameplay, which is largely a carbon copy of Divinity, they've also stuck to the same campy, stereotype-filled writing and the "everything must be EXTREME!" type of design that Larian are known for.
If not for the name and the choice of universe, this game wouldn't even be reminiscent of Baldur's Gate. They've done nothing whatsoever to make it feel like a sequel or even a tangentially related game.
I can't deny that it has a different tone than the Baldurs Gate games, and I also admit that are big problems in how they have house-ruled the combat. Yet i'm enjoying the game, mostly because of the characters. Not the main ones, but just the NPCs. They really gave some flavor to some of the races that have been a felt bland for a while, without losing the feel of them one bit. The goblins are just so darn likable. The amount of freedom of choice and roleplaying deserves to be mentioned as well.
I feel like, if they listen to what people are saying and they tone the Larian-ness down a notch, it will be a solid entry in the library of DnD games.
They really gave some flavor to some of the races that have been a felt bland for a while, without losing the feel of them one bit. The goblins are just so darn likable.
What, the goblins who speak the common tongue in a cockney accent?
Or the tieflings who speak in a cockney accent and barely mention the fact that they're tieflings?
Or the dwarves, elves, humans, drow, druids, locals, foreigners and demons who speak in a cockney accent and are all largely interchangable, bereft of any sense of individuality beyond what quest lines they've been ordained with?
Goblins are not supposed to be likeable. The fact that Larian made goblins likeable is the very thing that I criticize them for. Of *course* Larian had to make their goblins likeable. Everything Larian touches has to be comedic and quirky and campy and fucking ridiculous. Goblins being kawaii caricatures is Larian's trademark of trash writing.
If the upcoming Lord of the Rings television series makes orcs into jolly, likeable scamps, will you praise them for that, too? It's a violation of the setting, and it is too when it comes to D&D/Faerûn. Something being funny does not automatically make it right, even though Larian seem to think so. It isn't good writing. It's garbage writing that caters to people who think comedic = always great, without any sense of subtlety or adherence to the source material.
Goblins are not meant to be fucking likeable. Being unlikeable is their defining characteristic. If a writer makes Faerûn goblins likeable, they are a failed writer. What's next? Likeable zombies? Umber hulks? Aboleth? According to Larian's writing, if BG3 contains an aboleth, I fully expect it to resemble BBC's Blackadder. The literal devil in the game already does.
When it comes to Larian, everything must be silly and ridiculous. Nothing is allowed to be believable. It caters to the lowest common denominator and does not respect the spirit of the franchise. It's garbage writing.
Goblins are not supposed to be likeable. The fact that Larian made goblins likeable is the very thing that I criticize them for. Of *course* Larian had to make their goblins likeable.
I'm actually quite sympathetic to this criticism. But I don't think it's a defining trait of Larian exactly. I think alot of fantasy games have moved in this direction recently. Taking the "monstrous" race and making some or even all of them more human. I saw this in the Pillars games and it's true in Kingmaker as well (even specifically on goblins in that case). Heck, even SoD did quite a bit of it.
Perhaps it's something that other games have dabbled in, but it is very much Larian's trademark that everything has to be HiLaRiOuSlY wEiRd. That's what I really don't like about the Divinity series, and while I had hoped that they could leave that behind with BG3, it's clear by now that they couldn't. In Divinity it was simply the way they chose to design those games, and we could take it or leave it. If it's something that they insist on shoehorning into everything they make, they should not have been given the Baldur's Gate license.
Goblins are not supposed to be likeable. The fact that Larian made goblins likeable is the very thing that I criticize them for. Of *course* Larian had to make their goblins likeable. Everything Larian touches has to be comedic and quirky and campy and fucking ridiculous. Goblins being kawaii caricatures is Larian's trademark of trash writing.
I think you're assuming quite a bit, because that's not really true at all. They aren't campy, weird, cartoony or foolish. They behave just like goblins pretty much do. They kidnap, raid, grovel before more powerful beings, and are generally a danger and a nuisance. I actually don't see too much foolishness or campy writing at all. If anything, they tried a little too hard to be too serious.
But I do generally agree that when they want to convey something, they try too hard. Too much "epicness", too much over the top hostility from all corners, everything gets pushed a little more than it should be.
They really gave some flavor to some of the races that have been a felt bland for a while, without losing the feel of them one bit. The goblins are just so darn likable.
What, the goblins who speak the common tongue in a cockney accent?
Or the tieflings who speak in a cockney accent and barely mention the fact that they're tieflings?
Or the dwarves, elves, humans, drow, druids, locals, foreigners and demons who speak in a cockney accent and are all largely interchangable, bereft of any sense of individuality beyond what quest lines they've been ordained with?
Goblins are not supposed to be likeable. The fact that Larian made goblins likeable is the very thing that I criticize them for. Of *course* Larian had to make their goblins likeable. Everything Larian touches has to be comedic and quirky and campy and fucking ridiculous. Goblins being kawaii caricatures is Larian's trademark of trash writing.
If the upcoming Lord of the Rings television series makes orcs into jolly, likeable scamps, will you praise them for that, too? It's a violation of the setting, and it is too when it comes to D&D/Faerûn. Something being funny does not automatically make it right, even though Larian seem to think so. It isn't good writing. It's garbage writing that caters to people who think comedic = always great, without any sense of subtlety or adherence to the source material.
Goblins are not meant to be fucking likeable. Being unlikeable is their defining characteristic. If a writer makes Faerûn goblins likeable, they are a failed writer. What's next? Likeable zombies? Umber hulks? Aboleth? According to Larian's writing, if BG3 contains an aboleth, I fully expect it to resemble BBC's Blackadder. The literal devil in the game already does.
When it comes to Larian, everything must be silly and ridiculous. Nothing is allowed to be believable. It caters to the lowest common denominator and does not respect the spirit of the franchise. It's garbage writing.
I... completely disagree with everything on here. Literally everything. Have you ever DM'd before? The setting is there to create the opportunity for your stories to unfold. Goblins do not *have* to be unlikable any more than Orcs, Elves, Humans or any other sentient being must be likable or unlikable.
Simply said - Larian has the right, like all other DMs creating a story, to fashion that story to their own desired specifications. Since it has the WotC label on it, I'm sure some of this was run by with their permission first - but something like "Goblins cannot be likable" is simply a limitation you've placed yourself and not one required of the setting.
I daresay it would be boring and uninspired writing if everyone had to conform to a dogma of specific interactions with any given race.
"What's that. They met a goblin on the road to the capital? He must be unlikable. If he is not, then the sacrosanct rules of Faerun are forever tarnished by your garbage writing!"
They really gave some flavor to some of the races that have been a felt bland for a while, without losing the feel of them one bit. The goblins are just so darn likable.
What, the goblins who speak the common tongue in a cockney accent?
Or the tieflings who speak in a cockney accent and barely mention the fact that they're tieflings?
Or the dwarves, elves, humans, drow, druids, locals, foreigners and demons who speak in a cockney accent and are all largely interchangable, bereft of any sense of individuality beyond what quest lines they've been ordained with?
Goblins are not supposed to be likeable. The fact that Larian made goblins likeable is the very thing that I criticize them for. Of *course* Larian had to make their goblins likeable. Everything Larian touches has to be comedic and quirky and campy and fucking ridiculous. Goblins being kawaii caricatures is Larian's trademark of trash writing.
If the upcoming Lord of the Rings television series makes orcs into jolly, likeable scamps, will you praise them for that, too? It's a violation of the setting, and it is too when it comes to D&D/Faerûn. Something being funny does not automatically make it right, even though Larian seem to think so. It isn't good writing. It's garbage writing that caters to people who think comedic = always great, without any sense of subtlety or adherence to the source material.
Goblins are not meant to be fucking likeable. Being unlikeable is their defining characteristic. If a writer makes Faerûn goblins likeable, they are a failed writer. What's next? Likeable zombies? Umber hulks? Aboleth? According to Larian's writing, if BG3 contains an aboleth, I fully expect it to resemble BBC's Blackadder. The literal devil in the game already does.
When it comes to Larian, everything must be silly and ridiculous. Nothing is allowed to be believable. It caters to the lowest common denominator and does not respect the spirit of the franchise. It's garbage writing.
it's fine when it's only one like what beamdog did with M'Khiin. this isnt really a new thing either neverwinter nights tried to humanize the kobolds in the expansions and it gave us deekin as a result.
I do not understand much the focus about the cockney accent. 90% of the games are dubbed with almost all characters speaking with an English American accent.
Maybe common is cockney in BG XD
They really gave some flavor to some of the races that have been a felt bland for a while, without losing the feel of them one bit. The goblins are just so darn likable.
What, the goblins who speak the common tongue in a cockney accent?
Or the tieflings who speak in a cockney accent and barely mention the fact that they're tieflings?
Why? do you talk to people saying....?
Hi, I´m Afro-American, may I have a cup of coffee?
Hello, how much is it for an Afro-American like me?
Nice to meet you, Karen. I´m Afro-American, just in case you´re blind.
Because that would be totally believable...
If you ask them they told you they´re from Etrian and they have to flee because of the devilish blood. What else is to say?
While most DnD games kinda show goblins as little more than trash mob animals that can speak a word or two of common, goblins in BG3 are portrayed as the sentient race that they are supposed to be. Not a nice race, for the most part, but a decently intelligent one. Even as far back as 2nd edition they could be of average human intelligence. Some seem more aggressive than others while some are more or less friendly. It's refreshing to see, really.
I think the goblins might feel out of place mainly because of the fact that they now all have voiced lines, and even ambient comments, instead of the rare few. Voiced lines in *common* I might add, which is also immersion breaking imo, because the run-of-the-mill goblin wouldn't bother with common. Their leaders might know common, the lieutenants, but every single one? Nah. If everyone is special, no-one is.
I understand the desire to be as complete as possible, but Larian may have over-reached a bit.
Btw let's not forget that there are indeed a couple goblins/orcs/ogres or whatever in the original games that were quite chatty, some even likeable. But those were that exception rather than the norm.
i don't know what is this obsession larian and obsidian had with voicing everyline of text. that seems like a waste of money better used else where.
Yep. Unfortunately this has become something of an industry standard. Blame audiences more than individual studios imo. This standard was probably set first by people like Bethesda with Fallout and ES games, but it's bled into the tactical RPG's as well.
I really do hope some of these studios try to break from this standard. And have success in the market too. As you say, it's very cost intensive. It's also, imo, heavily at odds with having multiple solutions in quests and dialogue, etc. I have to imagine you're sacrificing alot on the non-linearity front given how costly good audio dialogue is to produce. As well it gives little freedom to edit or rewrite stuff.
I think the goblins might feel out of place mainly because of the fact that they now all have voiced lines, and even ambient comments, instead of the rare few. Voiced lines in *common* I might add, which is also immersion breaking imo, because the run-of-the-mill goblin wouldn't bother with common. Their leaders might know common, the lieutenants, but every single one? Nah. If everyone is special, no-one is.
I understand the desire to be as complete as possible, but Larian may have over-reached a bit.
Btw let's not forget that there are indeed a couple goblins/orcs/ogres or whatever in the original games that were quite chatty, some even likeable. But those were that exception rather than the norm.
Yeah, that's true. It would have been nice if you could have chosen language proficiencies to understand goblinoid and *then* get the voice lines from the average goblin. Not sure how that works in 5th but it has always been a feature in PnP.
i don't know what is this obsession larian and obsidian had with voicing everyline of text. that seems like a waste of money better used else where.
Yep. Unfortunately this has become something of an industry standard. Blame audiences more than individual studios imo. This standard was probably set first by people like Bethesda with Fallout and ES games, but it's bled into the tactical RPG's as well.
I really do hope some of these studios try to break from this standard. And have success in the market too. As you say, it's very cost intensive. It's also, imo, heavily at odds with having multiple solutions in quests and dialogue, etc. I have to imagine you're sacrificing alot on the non-linearity front given how costly good audio dialogue is to produce. As well it gives little freedom to edit or rewrite stuff.
i find it understandable in say something like the outer worlds. but in a top down crpgs you can just have the text be unvoiced.
I think the goblins might feel out of place mainly because of the fact that they now all have voiced lines, and even ambient comments, instead of the rare few. Voiced lines in *common* I might add, which is also immersion breaking imo, because the run-of-the-mill goblin wouldn't bother with common. Their leaders might know common, the lieutenants, but every single one? Nah. If everyone is special, no-one is.
Yeah, that's true. It would have been nice if you could have chosen language proficiencies to understand goblinoid and *then* get the voice lines from the average goblin. Not sure how that works in 5th but it has always been a feature in PnP.
Yeah, it´s the same. You also have the usual spells and items to comprehend languages. I would also like to have the different languages feature in the game but I understand that is not easy nor prioritary to make in a videogame
Not to mention, I think Larian made a design decision early on that everyone speaks common. From a game design perspective, it makes life a lot easier - if less immersive.
They really gave some flavor to some of the races that have been a felt bland for a while, without losing the feel of them one bit. The goblins are just so darn likable.
What, the goblins who speak the common tongue in a cockney accent?
Or the tieflings who speak in a cockney accent and barely mention the fact that they're tieflings?
Or the dwarves, elves, humans, drow, druids, locals, foreigners and demons who speak in a cockney accent and are all largely interchangable, bereft of any sense of individuality beyond what quest lines they've been ordained with?
Goblins are not supposed to be likeable. The fact that Larian made goblins likeable is the very thing that I criticize them for. Of *course* Larian had to make their goblins likeable. Everything Larian touches has to be comedic and quirky and campy and fucking ridiculous. Goblins being kawaii caricatures is Larian's trademark of trash writing.
If the upcoming Lord of the Rings television series makes orcs into jolly, likeable scamps, will you praise them for that, too? It's a violation of the setting, and it is too when it comes to D&D/Faerûn. Something being funny does not automatically make it right, even though Larian seem to think so. It isn't good writing. It's garbage writing that caters to people who think comedic = always great, without any sense of subtlety or adherence to the source material.
Goblins are not meant to be fucking likeable. Being unlikeable is their defining characteristic. If a writer makes Faerûn goblins likeable, they are a failed writer. What's next? Likeable zombies? Umber hulks? Aboleth? According to Larian's writing, if BG3 contains an aboleth, I fully expect it to resemble BBC's Blackadder. The literal devil in the game already does.
When it comes to Larian, everything must be silly and ridiculous. Nothing is allowed to be believable. It caters to the lowest common denominator and does not respect the spirit of the franchise. It's garbage writing.
I... completely disagree with everything on here. Literally everything. Have you ever DM'd before? The setting is there to create the opportunity for your stories to unfold. Goblins do not *have* to be unlikable any more than Orcs, Elves, Humans or any other sentient being must be likable or unlikable.
This is only true if you take the shallow, appearance-based definition of what a goblin is. In the more in-depth, cultural, mythical sense goblins always have to be malicious because being malicious or at least ill-tempered is what makes them goblins to begin with. They are, at heart, maleficent entities.
Then again so are elves and gnomes. Which really only reinforces the importance of the mythic element -- they have both been reduced to being nothing but their appearance. I predict goblins will soon be nothing but green gnomes as far as they are depicted.
I enjoy quality VO in games. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, the Witcher. I simply like listening to NPCs. And BG3 is not an exception. Going through the tiefling camp and talking to different people there gives you a roster of different voices but they all sound very professional. Maybe because I'm not a native English speaker myself, but I adore accents.
I don’t find these Goblins to be likeable. I actually find them quite unnerving ?
Very vague spoilers for plot points below:
I think they are symptomatic of the "take a race under your wing and make it cute and silly" progress but they're certainly aren't, you know, like cutesy-big-eyed-fluffy-kawaii-chibi-oh-look-how-silly-they-are goblins either. I played through their main camp encounter yesterday (before starting over because I've been refusing the worm so far but the dialogues there made me want to try and see if you can actually get on the their side) and while it have it's share of silly x3 x3 x3 encounters some of them are nasty too. The goblin children, the roast dwarf, the bloodlust and the goblin supremacism. They're a bit too okay with you being around but there are some negative encounters and it's made pretty clear that they're only tolerating you because of their new masters (it just feels in practice like, putting aside the few negative responses, their hostility is just informed and the rest of them are actually quite welcoming instead of being suspicious or wary).
I think the main reason they feel more cartoonish is that they talk straight English without word problems, and British English at that. It gives them a very strong air if "luls". Reminds me a lot of the Orcs in the Shadow of Mordor games where they spoke like that and it was played for laughs 9/10 times.
Cockney (or whatever that one British accent is called) is just a bad accent for goblins/orcs and similar creatures in my mind. It doesn't sound "goblinish" at all to me.
I enjoy quality VO in games. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, the Witcher. I simply like listening to NPCs. And BG3 is not an exception. Going through the tiefling camp and talking to different people there gives you a roster of different voices but they all sound very professional. Maybe because I'm not a native English speaker myself, but I adore accents.
To add to this, the streamers that interviewed Sven in that video that was posted in the spoiler thread mentioned that for streaming it's much easier when professional voice actors are doing the talking. This was the video where Sven talks (among other things) about the alignments of the initial NPC's in BG3.
So I think its just the sign of the times. Streaming and video game releases have become so hand in hand.
I think the goblins might feel out of place mainly because of the fact that they now all have voiced lines, and even ambient comments, instead of the rare few. Voiced lines in *common* I might add, which is also immersion breaking imo, because the run-of-the-mill goblin wouldn't bother with common. Their leaders might know common, the lieutenants, but every single one? Nah. If everyone is special, no-one is.
That could be in past editions. In 5e goblins and hobgoblins speak goblin and common.
I enjoy quality VO in games. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, the Witcher. I simply like listening to NPCs. And BG3 is not an exception. Going through the tiefling camp and talking to different people there gives you a roster of different voices but they all sound very professional. Maybe because I'm not a native English speaker myself, but I adore accents.
Not to mention, I think Larian made a design decision early on that everyone speaks common. From a game design perspective, it makes life a lot easier - if less immersive.
I agree, the quality is top-notch, and I totally understand it from a game design perspective. But even if all goblins know common (indeed a departure from previous editions) why would they speak Common amongst themselves?
I did notice in the meantime btw that you can apparently only speak to (some?) goblins a set amount of times before they decide they had enough of being peaceful.[/i]
@scriver "This is only true if you take the shallow, appearance-based definition of what a goblin is. In the more in-depth, cultural, mythical sense goblins always have to be malicious because being malicious or at least ill-tempered is what makes them goblins to begin with. They are, at heart, maleficent entities."
In first edition maybe. Goblins haven't been only evil for decades now, and its honestly MUCH better that way. I've never been comfortable with races that can only be evil (BOY those connotations...), unless its something from a forced alignment plane (hello demons, celestials and modrons). If developers can ONLY use races in the most basic context of them, we would never have M'Khiin. Or DEEKIN.
"Cockney (or whatever that one British accent is called) is just a bad accent for goblins/orcs and similar creatures in my mind. It doesn't sound "goblinish" at all to me."
I play Dragon Quest. Cockney does not even register with me anymore
@scriver "This is only true if you take the shallow, appearance-based definition of what a goblin is. In the more in-depth, cultural, mythical sense goblins always have to be malicious because being malicious or at least ill-tempered is what makes them goblins to begin with. They are, at heart, maleficent entities."
In first edition maybe. Goblins haven't been only evil for decades now, and its honestly MUCH better that way. I've never been comfortable with races that can only be evil (BOY those connotations...), unless its something from a forced alignment plane (hello demons, celestials and modrons). If developers can ONLY use races in the most basic context of them, we would never have M'Khiin. Or DEEKIN.
"Cockney (or whatever that one British accent is called) is just a bad accent for goblins/orcs and similar creatures in my mind. It doesn't sound "goblinish" at all to me."
I play Dragon Quest. Cockney does not even register with me anymore
I agree, unless the beings in question are supernatural and tied to a particular philosophy embedded in the plane they come from, most races should have at least a few notable exceptions that span most parts of the alignment axis. Most goblins are gonna be evil because they are born into circumstances where you fight and kill and raid to survive, but taken outside of that context they should develop different personalities. It has been more or less like this since 3rd edition and i've always saw it as an improvement.
In fact my favorite thing that Salvatore ever did was establish an actual orc kingdom that wasn't just a bunch of raiders. Obould was not good by any means but he was intelligent and wanted more for his people. A good story all around and a lot of orc and half-orc characters I make tend to tie into that kingdom in one way or another.
@ThacoBell - I didn't say evil, I said malicious. Important distinction.
Deekin is a very good example. Why is Deekin a kobold? He has no connection to ore, no connection to houses, no connection to ships. He's only a kobold from the shallow standpoint of "some dude arbitrarily decided thing was a kobold".
@ThacoBell - I didn't say evil, I said malicious. Important distinction.
Deekin is a very good example. Why is Deekin a kobold? He has no connection to ore, no connection to houses, no connection to ships. He's only a kobold from the shallow standpoint of "some dude arbitrarily decided thing was a kobold".
Eh? Ore, houses, and ships? I recall none of these things from kobolds in the 2e monster manual. Is this based on the real life mythology they are inspired by perhaps?
@ThacoBell - I didn't say evil, I said malicious. Important distinction.
Deekin is a very good example. Why is Deekin a kobold? He has no connection to ore, no connection to houses, no connection to ships. He's only a kobold from the shallow standpoint of "some dude arbitrarily decided thing was a kobold".
Eh? Ore, houses, and ships? I recall none of these things from kobolds in the 2e monster manual. Is this based on the real life mythology they are inspired by perhaps?
Indeed, as far as I know DnD kobolds aren't based on Germanic mythological kobolds at all...
Comments
On top of the sheer hands-on gameplay, which is largely a carbon copy of Divinity, they've also stuck to the same campy, stereotype-filled writing and the "everything must be EXTREME!" type of design that Larian are known for.
If not for the name and the choice of universe, this game wouldn't even be reminiscent of Baldur's Gate. They've done nothing whatsoever to make it feel like a sequel or even a tangentially related game.
I feel like, if they listen to what people are saying and they tone the Larian-ness down a notch, it will be a solid entry in the library of DnD games.
What, the goblins who speak the common tongue in a cockney accent?
Or the tieflings who speak in a cockney accent and barely mention the fact that they're tieflings?
Or the dwarves, elves, humans, drow, druids, locals, foreigners and demons who speak in a cockney accent and are all largely interchangable, bereft of any sense of individuality beyond what quest lines they've been ordained with?
Goblins are not supposed to be likeable. The fact that Larian made goblins likeable is the very thing that I criticize them for. Of *course* Larian had to make their goblins likeable. Everything Larian touches has to be comedic and quirky and campy and fucking ridiculous. Goblins being kawaii caricatures is Larian's trademark of trash writing.
If the upcoming Lord of the Rings television series makes orcs into jolly, likeable scamps, will you praise them for that, too? It's a violation of the setting, and it is too when it comes to D&D/Faerûn. Something being funny does not automatically make it right, even though Larian seem to think so. It isn't good writing. It's garbage writing that caters to people who think comedic = always great, without any sense of subtlety or adherence to the source material.
Goblins are not meant to be fucking likeable. Being unlikeable is their defining characteristic. If a writer makes Faerûn goblins likeable, they are a failed writer. What's next? Likeable zombies? Umber hulks? Aboleth? According to Larian's writing, if BG3 contains an aboleth, I fully expect it to resemble BBC's Blackadder. The literal devil in the game already does.
When it comes to Larian, everything must be silly and ridiculous. Nothing is allowed to be believable. It caters to the lowest common denominator and does not respect the spirit of the franchise. It's garbage writing.
I'm actually quite sympathetic to this criticism. But I don't think it's a defining trait of Larian exactly. I think alot of fantasy games have moved in this direction recently. Taking the "monstrous" race and making some or even all of them more human. I saw this in the Pillars games and it's true in Kingmaker as well (even specifically on goblins in that case). Heck, even SoD did quite a bit of it.
I think you're assuming quite a bit, because that's not really true at all. They aren't campy, weird, cartoony or foolish. They behave just like goblins pretty much do. They kidnap, raid, grovel before more powerful beings, and are generally a danger and a nuisance. I actually don't see too much foolishness or campy writing at all. If anything, they tried a little too hard to be too serious.
But I do generally agree that when they want to convey something, they try too hard. Too much "epicness", too much over the top hostility from all corners, everything gets pushed a little more than it should be.
OBJECTION! *insert phoenix wright music*
No race should really "supposed" to be anything.
I... completely disagree with everything on here. Literally everything. Have you ever DM'd before? The setting is there to create the opportunity for your stories to unfold. Goblins do not *have* to be unlikable any more than Orcs, Elves, Humans or any other sentient being must be likable or unlikable.
Simply said - Larian has the right, like all other DMs creating a story, to fashion that story to their own desired specifications. Since it has the WotC label on it, I'm sure some of this was run by with their permission first - but something like "Goblins cannot be likable" is simply a limitation you've placed yourself and not one required of the setting.
I daresay it would be boring and uninspired writing if everyone had to conform to a dogma of specific interactions with any given race.
"What's that. They met a goblin on the road to the capital? He must be unlikable. If he is not, then the sacrosanct rules of Faerun are forever tarnished by your garbage writing!"
it's fine when it's only one like what beamdog did with M'Khiin. this isnt really a new thing either neverwinter nights tried to humanize the kobolds in the expansions and it gave us deekin as a result.
Maybe common is cockney in BG XD
Why?
Hi, I´m Afro-American, may I have a cup of coffee?
Hello, how much is it for an Afro-American like me?
Nice to meet you, Karen. I´m Afro-American, just in case you´re blind.
Because that would be totally believable...
If you ask them they told you they´re from Etrian and they have to flee because of the devilish blood. What else is to say?
I understand the desire to be as complete as possible, but Larian may have over-reached a bit.
Btw let's not forget that there are indeed a couple goblins/orcs/ogres or whatever in the original games that were quite chatty, some even likeable. But those were that exception rather than the norm.
Yep. Unfortunately this has become something of an industry standard. Blame audiences more than individual studios imo. This standard was probably set first by people like Bethesda with Fallout and ES games, but it's bled into the tactical RPG's as well.
I really do hope some of these studios try to break from this standard. And have success in the market too. As you say, it's very cost intensive. It's also, imo, heavily at odds with having multiple solutions in quests and dialogue, etc. I have to imagine you're sacrificing alot on the non-linearity front given how costly good audio dialogue is to produce. As well it gives little freedom to edit or rewrite stuff.
Yeah, that's true. It would have been nice if you could have chosen language proficiencies to understand goblinoid and *then* get the voice lines from the average goblin. Not sure how that works in 5th but it has always been a feature in PnP.
i find it understandable in say something like the outer worlds. but in a top down crpgs you can just have the text be unvoiced.
That could be in past editions. In 5e goblins and hobgoblins speak goblin and common.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/goblin
https://5e.tools/bestiary/goblin-commoner-tftyp.html
https://5e.tools/bestiary/goblin-boss-mm.html
https://5e.tools/bestiary/goblin-gang-member-kkw.html
Yeah, it´s the same. You also have the usual spells and items to comprehend languages. I would also like to have the different languages feature in the game but I understand that is not easy nor prioritary to make in a videogame
This is only true if you take the shallow, appearance-based definition of what a goblin is. In the more in-depth, cultural, mythical sense goblins always have to be malicious because being malicious or at least ill-tempered is what makes them goblins to begin with. They are, at heart, maleficent entities.
Then again so are elves and gnomes. Which really only reinforces the importance of the mythic element -- they have both been reduced to being nothing but their appearance. I predict goblins will soon be nothing but green gnomes as far as they are depicted.
Very vague spoilers for plot points below:
I think the main reason they feel more cartoonish is that they talk straight English without word problems, and British English at that. It gives them a very strong air if "luls". Reminds me a lot of the Orcs in the Shadow of Mordor games where they spoke like that and it was played for laughs 9/10 times.
Cockney (or whatever that one British accent is called) is just a bad accent for goblins/orcs and similar creatures in my mind. It doesn't sound "goblinish" at all to me.
To add to this, the streamers that interviewed Sven in that video that was posted in the spoiler thread mentioned that for streaming it's much easier when professional voice actors are doing the talking. This was the video where Sven talks (among other things) about the alignments of the initial NPC's in BG3.
So I think its just the sign of the times. Streaming and video game releases have become so hand in hand.
Edit: Here is the video.
For the life of me I don't remember when they mentioned it. Also the video contains some early game spoilers.
I agree, the quality is top-notch, and I totally understand it from a game design perspective. But even if all goblins know common (indeed a departure from previous editions) why would they speak Common amongst themselves?
In first edition maybe. Goblins haven't been only evil for decades now, and its honestly MUCH better that way. I've never been comfortable with races that can only be evil (BOY those connotations...), unless its something from a forced alignment plane (hello demons, celestials and modrons). If developers can ONLY use races in the most basic context of them, we would never have M'Khiin. Or DEEKIN.
"Cockney (or whatever that one British accent is called) is just a bad accent for goblins/orcs and similar creatures in my mind. It doesn't sound "goblinish" at all to me."
I play Dragon Quest. Cockney does not even register with me anymore
I agree, unless the beings in question are supernatural and tied to a particular philosophy embedded in the plane they come from, most races should have at least a few notable exceptions that span most parts of the alignment axis. Most goblins are gonna be evil because they are born into circumstances where you fight and kill and raid to survive, but taken outside of that context they should develop different personalities. It has been more or less like this since 3rd edition and i've always saw it as an improvement.
In fact my favorite thing that Salvatore ever did was establish an actual orc kingdom that wasn't just a bunch of raiders. Obould was not good by any means but he was intelligent and wanted more for his people. A good story all around and a lot of orc and half-orc characters I make tend to tie into that kingdom in one way or another.
Deekin is a very good example. Why is Deekin a kobold? He has no connection to ore, no connection to houses, no connection to ships. He's only a kobold from the shallow standpoint of "some dude arbitrarily decided thing was a kobold".
Eh? Ore, houses, and ships? I recall none of these things from kobolds in the 2e monster manual. Is this based on the real life mythology they are inspired by perhaps?
Indeed, as far as I know DnD kobolds aren't based on Germanic mythological kobolds at all...