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BG3: Yay or Nay?

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  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,174
    Nay!
    i don't remember thacobell saying star wars sucks just the newer movies. and they meant lord of the ring sis one story that was broken up into 3 so yes it was meant to be one book.

    ThacoBell
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    megamike15 wrote: »
    i don't remember thacobell saying star wars sucks just the newer movies. and they meant lord of the ring sis one story that was broken up into 3 so yes it was meant to be one book.

    I already adress that:
    "The issue is that you keep talking about examples instead of the issue:
    (...)

    If you are against changing protagonist and story as a principle, then say so, but then it won't matter if Star Wars were good or not. It's not about example, but about change of protagonist as a concept. Chronicles of Amber did that, but I'm taking wild guess that there is also something wrong with that example. ;)"

    Take Fantastic Beasts from Harry Potter, then. Or new Rick Riordan books. As I said, is the point that every single franchise that changed protagonist and story was the disaster?

  • Nay!
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    AdulNimran
  • wildfirewildfire Member Posts: 69
    Yay!
    TFA was right there in the alley of the better SW movies.

    semiticgodmegamike15
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,558
    Nay!
    @Artona "If you are against changing protagonist and story as a principle, then say so"

    Its not just the protaganist. Its the utter lack of ANYTHING connecting the games. And for a series that has already established itself as a single continuous story, this is dishonest and fraud to market it as the next installment of the series. I oppose this on principle. This isn't a new statement, I've been saying it since the game was announced. So now I wonder if you've even read my comments before trying to argue.

    @kanisatha Its EXACTLY the "3" in the title that I take issue with.

  • Nay!
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Sjerrie
  • wildfirewildfire Member Posts: 69
    Yay!
    Elder Scrolls games take hundreds or tousands of years between each other so I don't see an issue in the name of BG3.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    @ThacoBell
    I oppose this on principle. This isn't a new statement, I've been saying it since the game was announced. So now I wonder if you've even read my comments before trying to argue.

    What you said was:

    "Baldur's Gate has ALWAYS been about Gorion's Ward. It continued the story started in BG1 and continued its themes."
    I suggested that other franchises expanded on themes and protagonist and it wasn't awful. But instead of saying "it doesn't matter, I don't like it on principle!" you went "well, those examples you gave suck or don't apply!". Glad you finally clarified what you mean.
    Still, your statement is simply factually wrong, just like "Terminator movies are about Sarah Connor".
    BTW - unless you have some insider knowledge, then you can't say there ANYTHING connecting the games.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,989
    edited June 2019
    I'll try to remember to come back here and vote when I've actually sorted out my yays and my nays in this matter. Gonna need a lot more information than what we currently have before that can happen, however. Magnitudes more.
    wildfire wrote: »
    Elder Scrolls games take hundreds or tousands of years between each

    Oh, don't even take this there, if I rev up the TES rant center in my brain (yes I have one of those, it's right next to the BG1 gush gland) you're all getting buried in a cascade of walls of text.

    megamike15mlneveseBelgarathMTH
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,166
    Yay!
    Yes. The other BG3 discussions have already gotten far too heated, and we don't want this one to suffer, too. @ZaramMaldovar doesn't have the power to remove disrespectful comments from this thread, but the moderating team does.

    We really can't let acrimonious bickering become the new standard for BG3 discussions. We have high standards for friendliness and respect in this community.

    ZaramMaldovarkanisathaBelgarathMTH
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,148
    Yay!
    I'm going to refrain from making BG3-centric discussions in the future (at least until after the game comes out and I've had a chance to play it). I respect you all and some of you I've even come to call friend. I don't like seeing people rip each other apart like this over something that I should've known would be polarizin

    I'm going to ask one of the moderators to close the thread so it doesn't ever have a chance to go too far.

    I look forward to discussing other, less dangerous topics with you all in the future, and i hope you won't think less of me for closing the thread.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    Have the heated posts been removed? I'm looking over this discussion and don't see anything uncivil. Maybe a few digs at each other here and there but nothing seriously disrespectful or hateful.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,166
    Yay!
    @the_sextein: Nothing's been moved. The other threads have gotten heated, though, and we saw some warning signs in this one. It's best to put out fires before they spread.

    the_sexteinkanisathaArvia
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,148
    Yay!
    @the_sextein
    Perhaps I'm reading too far into it. I have Aspergers and don't pick up on social cues that much so I may have misinterpreted some of the arguments as uncivil when they weren't.

    Still, I think it's best to put out the fire as @semiticgod put it before there is one.

    the_sexteinkanisathasemiticgodArvia
  • BookwormOtakuBookwormOtaku Member Posts: 8
    Yay!
    I'm going to say Yay as the trailer and update video they posted has me at the very least very curious. I'm currently trying out the console version of Divinity Original Sin and what I've played so far is enough to have me a little hopeful. I am hoping it's not as, well...jokey as DOS has been though.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,073
    Acrimonious Bickering would be great name for a band.

    Ad rem - I'm closer to "yay" than "nay", but not close enough to cast a vote. I'd like Laran to succeed, but I think that the challenge is enormous. Still, I see no evil in trying. If Laran delivers, we'll have something new in Baldur's Gate franchise. If they won't - Shadows of Amn are still out there, and Ascension is out of beta, so no harm done. :)
    I just really really wish that they keep some kind of storyline connection.

    the_sextein
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,877
    Nay!
    Only i that can hope anything better than SCL after seeing that for then, some thing that worked on Baldur's Gate since 1998 doesn't work in a video game???

    “The very obvious one would be that you tend to miss a lot when you roll the dice*, which is fine when you’re playing on the tabletop, but it’s not so cool when you’re playing a video game,” Vincke said. “We had to have solutions for that.”* Source https://www.tatech.org/baldurs-gate-iii-is-coming-for-pc-and-stadia-when-its-ready-takes-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/

    This is not an small change. This is an huge change.
    1 - Makes armor useless when IMO armor should protect you more on D&D, mainly against non blunt weapons(maces/warhammers)
    2 - Or makes armor works like on awful generic games, absorbs an percentage, doesn't matter if is an knife or an dane waraxe, mail absorbs the same amount on both cases.
    3 - Ranged weapons since always can hit, need to be "balanced" too. In other words, bows with 13m range like on dos2 will be the norm. They can't always hit and have 400 feet + 40/char level for eg
    4 - And spells like Finger of the Death? If there are no fortitude save, good buy. No OHK spells. And fireball? Can't be so deadly since there are no reflex save/half damage/evasion.
    5 - Spells like dominate monster/person without saves will not just always work. They need to be "rebalanced" in other words, will probably be on cooldowns, if they decide to add those spells. Because modern developers can't make an spell feel like an power that can be resisted, they wanna make spells fells like game mechanics and just it.

    This change that for this guy "doesn't work on a video game"(but worked in any game that did it), will literally kill all things that make D&D good. Hell, even DDO that has ridiculous high stat/health/damage inflation allow saves, hits and misses.

    The last game that tried to do the same, was Sword Coast Legends. And if Larien does the same, i wish for then the same fate. Sorry if i being uneducated, but after SCL i think that game devs will understand that nobody purchases an D&D game expecting to play an generic game without depth.

    AdulThacoBellscriverNimran
  • TakisMegasTakisMegas Member Posts: 835
    Yay!

    Did anyone stop to think that maybe WotC has put certain game restrictions on Larian. To fit a more casual audience maybe?

    Sjerrie
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    Yay!
    Holy carp guys, it's Baldur's Gate 3!!!!!

    On the "changed for video game" bit: they could pretty effectively raise the to-hit rate by lowering every enemy's AC by 2 points. That would feel like you don't miss that often without a significant alteration of the rules, keeping many key factors of 5th edition D&D the same.

    Anyway! This is exciting. The trailer seems dark, like Pillars of Eternity-style dark, but who knows? The original BG games were pretty dark but had lots of moments of levity in them. I hope the overall style isn't too comedic and cartoony, like Divinity: Original Sin was (I haven't seen or played the second game, just the first). I didn't dislike D:OS, but it's not what I would want for a BG game.

    How deep do you think they'll go on the D&D rules? Will all of the classes be there? Will every published class archetype be available?

    CAN THE GAME BE MODDED FREELY?!?!?

    So many questions! It's too early, I know, and there's no gameplay released yet. I for one am excited though! =D

  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    Yay!
    Oh, one thing more: with all those illithids flying around, you might wanna have your Intelligence save trained. Just sayin'.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,818
    Particularly I will wait for more information before being hyped. If I'll like the game or not may depend a lot on how they change the tabletop rules.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,877
    edited June 2019
    Nay!
    Holy carp guys, it's Baldur's Gate 3!!!!!

    On the "changed for video game" bit: they could pretty effectively raise the to-hit rate by lowering every enemy's AC by 2 points. That would feel like you don't miss that often without a significant alteration of the rules, keeping many key factors of 5th edition D&D the same.(...)=D
    l

    Or... Can be DOS 2 style gimmicky combat, DOS 2 style ranged weapons with 13m range, dos2 spells with cooldowns, you never miss, but enemies has so much HP that you need to impale an lance into his face 20 times to kill, etc

    The "translate into an video game" shows that is more likely that will be 'swordcoastized' instead. If they wanna create an authentic 5e experience they will say things like "made an difficulty option that gives +rolls to the player in order to reduce misses since modern gamers aren't used to miss on old games", but no, he just said that all previous games "doesn't work" and his system works... Or something like "we will made alternative rules, but they will be optional since most modern gamers aren't used do D&D system"

    Petrification on NWN under core D&D rules and normal mode is very different.

    Here is three ways that BG3 can fail
    Ancient wisdom: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

    So how can Baldur's Gate 3 become a failure?

    1) Larian will "fix" the D&D 5e combat rules in an honest attempt to make things work better for a video game. Sword Coast Legends changed 5e rules to work better in a video game and failed horribly. It didn't feel like D&D anymore. Even a good system can fail if it loses the D&D spirit and starts to feel more like an MMO.. or Divinity Original Sin.

    I'm reading worrying comments about how missing in combat is bad and needs to be fixed. Well, in Baldur's Gate I and II you miss a lot. In NWN you miss a lot. And it has never been a problem. A modern game can make the misses look really cool by animating the dodges and blocks and making it look like real intense combat. So this seems more like a personal preference what a video game combat "should be" rather than a real issue. E.g. I hate the DOS2 combat system where you hit every time but everyone has huge HP pools in the thousands and nonsensical HP buffers for "armor".

    EMBRACE THE MISSES!

    2) Larian goes too far with environmental interaction and it becomes a constant gimmick. It's a nice touch in combat when lightning reacts to water or falling debris buries enemies. But when there are oil barrels and water puddles everywhere just because and you start every combat by analyzing the surroundings, the focus shifts too much into a terrain puzzle minigame. That becomes silly quite fast. DOS2 is very tongue in cheek with the environmental combat and BG needs to be far less so. Baldur's Gate I and II didn't need environmental gimmicks to be fun, so don't "fix" this. Just add a little bit of it for spice.

    3) Larian "fixes" the lack of constant magical loot. 5e intentionally got away from showering the PCs with magical loot. And it's great because now it's more about the characters than what they're wearing. A diablo-like constant grind to upgrade your magical junk doesn't belong in BG. Less is more with magic items, and this is something that Baldur's Gate always got right. So don't "fix" this either.

    Larian is set to "overdeliver". Unless it just means content, they don't have to. Trying too hard and throwing in too much "game" will start detracting from what's essential. Which is a pure D&D adventure with a great story.
    https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/1642039362997737977/


    On NWN, i an in favor of an option more 3.5e like but some people are against even an option....

    kanisathaBelgarathMTHShadowdemonNimran
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    Yay!
    3) Larian "fixes" the lack of constant magical loot. 5e intentionally got away from showering the PCs with magical loot. And it's great because now it's more about the characters than what they're wearing. A diablo-like constant grind to upgrade your magical junk doesn't belong in BG. Less is more with magic items, and this is something that Baldur's Gate always got right. So don't "fix" this either.

    I found the amount of loot in the BG saga to be quite high compared to normal D&D (even insanely high, every cliff cave seems to have a +1 halberd in it). Sure, that's nothing compared to Diablo or World of Warcraft, but those games are completely different and grinding is the focus of those.

    To be clear: I agree with you on this particular point. I would rather be overjoyed to find one Bag of Holding than to roll my eyes at yet another +1 longsword. A few memorable items are better than multitudes of crappy ones.

    Nimran
  • byrne20byrne20 Member Posts: 416
    Yay!
    I am 100% on board with Baldur's Gate 3 being a thing. There are a few people on here that feel the need to be very negative about it but i wont jump on board with that. While I do agree with some comments that it is still early days yet and we dont really know much about what to expect yet, it doesn't stop me for one second being really hyped about this.

    For one I am a fan of Larian Studios and of both Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2. Like them or not both of those games where almost universally acclaimed. The small minority of people on here that don't like them for one reason or another are obviously entitled to their opinion but the facts are facts. They have so far been very successful. I am not saying that it means they are 100% certain to create an amazing Baldur's Gate 3 but I 100% believe that out of all the current options that they are the best choice to make an attempt at this. I mean no disrespect to Beamdog. I have always supported them and really enjoyed Siege of Dragonspear. But I do think they may be to small for this project at the moment. Just my opinion but I stand by it.

    I really like that it seems that this is gonna have a really large budget and a large team working on it. I am looking forward to seeing more updates as the process unfolds.

    I feel like a lot some people are stuck in the past and I 100% agree with @JuliusBorisov previous comment about not being able to create a brand new AAA game in this day and age with the Infinity Engine. Siege of Dragonspear did feel to me like a bit of an indie game and thats why I think it worked for that. But it wouldn't work for Baldur's Gate 3 if Larian want this game to be huge.

    I also completely disagree with people saying that using the name Baldur's Gate 3 is wrong. Yes Charnames story is over but it will be set in the same world where all of those events took place and lets be honest, Larian would be fools not to take advantage of at least a bit of nostalgia and have all sorts of lore available in this game in relation to the previous games and maybe some related quests. Those things on their own are enough for me to justify the title.

    As far as the 5th edition D&D rule set is concerned I dont really have any knowledge on this but I am excited to start learning about it and would be very interested to see how a Ranger holds up in 5th Edition. Are they structured very different to the 2nd edition? I did play Neverwinter nights 2. I presume that was 3rd edition but it was a long time ago and unfortunately I couldnt really enjoy it as it was just far to unstable to play. I couldnt deal with the crazy spinning cameras. It just made me feel sick :neutral: But I do remember that I quite liked what I saw of the Ranger class in that.

    I 100% am behind Larian and am hoping that this is gonna be a great game. I am not trying to antagonize anyone. Just offering my opinion.

    BelgarathMTHDinoDinJuliusBorisov
  • SjerrieSjerrie Member Posts: 1,094
    TakisMegas wrote: »
    Did anyone stop to think that maybe WotC has put certain game restrictions on Larian. To fit a more casual audience maybe?

    Wouldn't be the first time the owners of an IP would take it to the grave themselves...

    lefreutTakisMegas
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,877
    edited June 2019
    Nay!
    byrne20, since you like play as an ranger and like larien games, one question. What is your opinion about lonbgbows with 13m range? And cooldowns?
    TakisMegas wrote: »
    Did anyone stop to think that maybe WotC has put certain game restrictions on Larian. To fit a more casual audience maybe?

    WotC learned his lesson on 4e. They realized that try to simplify RPG to appeal to non rpg fans is liek try to sell meal to a vegan...
    mlnevese wrote: »
    Particularly I will wait for more information before being hyped. If I'll like the game or not may depend a lot on how they change the tabletop rules.

    Strongly agree and the information that i know at moment shows that will be scl2...

  • byrne20byrne20 Member Posts: 416
    Yay!
    @SorcererV1ct0r As far as the cooldowns are concerned it didn’t really bother me much as that was part of the game in general. All abilities had cooldowns. Some less than others. It all added to the tactical approach.

    As far as the 13m range part is concerned I never had any issue with that either. I did like that in DOS2 they added the extra damage for higher elevation for bows. It added an extra tactical point. I was always looking out for having the higher ground. In DOS2 I also would put points into summoning as a Ranger so I could use my summons to soak up damage and keep my Ranger safe. It didn’t always work ha ha but I always found it fun.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,877
    Nay!
    byrne20 wrote: »
    @SorcererV1ct0r As far as the cooldowns are concerned it didn’t really bother me much as that was part of the game in general. All abilities had cooldowns. Some less than others. It all added to the tactical approach.

    As far as the 13m range part is concerned I never had any issue with that either. I did like that in DOS2 they added the extra damage for higher elevation for bows. It added an extra tactical point. I was always looking out for having the higher ground. In DOS2 I also would put points into summoning as a Ranger so I could use my summons to soak up damage and keep my Ranger safe. It didn’t always work ha ha but I always found it fun.

    Summons? You can only use one summon on DOS.

    As for cooldowns, they don't make the game more tactical, they just force you into an rotation and makes no sense.

    I own an 175 lbf crosssbow and have no problems hitting targets far smaller than humans at 50m If the wind is favorable, i even hit an target at 100m. The idea that an hunter that spends his life training with an bow as if his life and his family life depends on it be unable to hit an elephant at 14m remembers me the D3 monks using big and sharp axes, not to strike with then, but to have strong unarmed attacks.
    kbMrYEd.jpg

    On D&D, yes, weapons have historically accurate ranges.

    Even the firearms, are on par with the earlier firearms range. Blackpowder rifles are far more precise than what pop cutlure portraits.

    mlnevese
  • byrne20byrne20 Member Posts: 416
    Yay!
    @SorcererV1ct0r my apologies. I didn’t mean for my words to be taken as you can summon more than one creature at a time. I just meant that I used my summons as a means to keep my Ranger as safe as possible. I would often use it at the start of a battle.

    On the range thing that’s fair enough but this is a game after all and I’m pretty sure that even in Baldur’s Gate that the range for Archers was pretty short.
    If you feel that it forces you into a rotation then that’s your opinion but I happen to disagree. You have multiple party members who all have different abilities. It’s about planing what ones to use at what point in the battle but your mind is clearly made up and that’s fine. I’m not here to try to convince you of anything. You are aloud your opinion :smile:

    BallpointMan
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