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Who don't you like?

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  • _Connacht__Connacht_ Member Posts: 154
    edited September 2019
    Many of the new characters in SoD, in theory, are really interesting, but they always seem a bit forced into the frail IMHO, and most dialogues are poor in the selection of answers (not that the original saga was always particularly deep in that sense or free, but SoD gave me the sensation that interactions were too lacking and railroaded). I didn't really see reasons to bring them with me instead of sticking around with the canon party of comrades. I think that some of them could have been better introduced if they were available even before SoD (mostly Corwin: she would make an interesting addition in BG1 Chapter 5, even if not recruitable, with more potential for developing as a returning character in SoD). Besides, in some rare occasions I had the feeling that I was reading some fanfiction, perhaps because there wasn't enough time to develop a character.
    I don't know if adding SoD characters into BG1 would be a good idea. But I would at least try Corwin. I think that there is already a mod that experiments the idea, although for EET only.

    FenrirWolfganger
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    @_Connacht_ The SoD npcs are some of the best in the series. You really should try them out.

    DaevelonilduderinoQuartzFenrirWolfganger
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 741
    M’Khin especially I think, also Glint and Corwin are great. Voghlin is the runt of the litter personality wise

    ThacoBell
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    Glint and Corwin are fantastic characters. They deserve to be in their own game instead of a tacked-on "totes canon, guise" Baldur's Gate extension.

  • _Connacht__Connacht_ Member Posts: 154
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @_Connacht_ The SoD npcs are some of the best in the series. You really should try them out.

    I tried. I was saying another thing.

    I still consider that at least some of them should be available already from BG1.

    FenrirWolfganger
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 785
    Ooh, I've wanted to make a post about this for awhile! Since SoD characters have already been brought up...
    The thing that's made most of the BG2 NPC so memorable is that they're people: flawed, magnificent people with backstories and connections to the world. Even the ones that people love to hate (Anomen, for example) you either learn more about through their interactions with the world or by their growth. There's a few exceptions, of course: Nalia is probably the weakest NPC in terms of writing, since her own personal quest basically tells us that... she was right about Isaea Roenall? Cool? She doesn't really grow at all.

    A couple of examples. Mazzy takes us back to her family in Trademeet, and we learn that despite her commitment to adventuring and protecting people, her own family comes first. Jaheira's entire questline is really well done, having ties back to her past via the Harpers, and having to struggle between loyalty to an organization and a person. Cernd, upon learning of his failures, doubles down on them and goes way into the sunk cost fallacy. Even Jan, the crazy gnome, has a light shone on his character: he's feels betrayed by the one he loves, and all his irreverent humor is (probably) an emotional defense of sorts.

    Compare this to the SoD NPCs. Ignoring the Evil ones, since I haven't run with them yet. On the bad side: Rasaad doesn't even have his own questline, and I can't think of a single dialogue that makes me think "Oh, he actually grew" or "Oh, this is who he really is". Neera's entire questline is trying to get rid of Adoy's haunting. She doesn't change or grow. I've taken Voghlin several times. I honestly have no idea who he is besides a caricature of a drunken Scottish bard or something. Glint... has a lot of relatives? And might be OK with beating one of them up? And is a momma's boy?

    On the I'm-undecided side: Corwin, surprisingly. She starts off with such promise with the scene with her daughter and all that. I want to know what happened to the father, or about whether she's a workaholic like Keldorn. I... don't learn any of that. Even though a large portion of the adventure has us working with the Flaming Fist, I learn absolutely nothing about her from the ones she supposedly works with. Safana might have more if you're willing to romance her, but if not she just comes across as a vain, arrogant kleptomaniac.

    On the good side: M'khinn is amazingly done. You learn more from each of her interactions, and she even gets a unique interaction from the very first map. I have the feeling that she existed before you brought her into the party, and have a decent idea of what she'd do after the events of SoD. Minsc and Dynaheir also get some much needed characterization from the other Wychalams at the Underground River. Finally, we learn more about Khalid, both about how affectionate he is towards Jaheira but also how uncertain he is about his own capabilities of showing affection. Jaheira doesn't get quite as much, but since her growth mainly comes from BG2 I'm a bit more ambivalent about that.

    Overall, there's some high highs and low lows in the SoD NPCs. I'm ambivalent overall, but I think, especially for the EE NPCs, more emphasis should've been given to their personality and character rather than to their race and class.

    DJKajuruQuartzFenrirWolfganger
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,341
    I mean, some of what you're talking about is inherent in an interquel.

    We already know, by nature of having played BGEE and BG2EE, that Neera didn't undergo any noticable character development between games, so it would be a bit weird if her character started growing or changing in any particularly interesting ways during the SoD campaign.

    In general interquels are a bad idea. The games skipped over that part of the story for a reason. It was uninteresting. That being said SoD did what they could with it I think. I still haven't played the whole campaign admittedly.

    FenrirWolfganger
  • leeuxleeux Member Posts: 115
    Neverused wrote: »
    <snip>There's a few exceptions, of course: Nalia is probably the weakest NPC in terms of writing, since her own personal quest basically tells us that... she was right about Isaea Roenall? Cool? She doesn't really grow at all.<snip>

    Maybe I'm remembering wrong, or perhaps it's just tinted by nostalgia since it was on my first full playthrough that I took her with me until the end... but, IIRC Nalia grows quite a bit during Throne of Bhaal to the point that I distinctively remember thinking to myself "That was cool... more of that please!"

    But then again, that was quite looong ago... and I might be misremembering :confused:

    ThacoBell
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 785
    Chronicler wrote: »
    I mean, some of what you're talking about is inherent in an interquel.

    We already know, by nature of having played BGEE and BG2EE, that Neera didn't undergo any noticable character development between games, so it would be a bit weird if her character started growing or changing in any particularly interesting ways during the SoD campaign.

    In general interquels are a bad idea. The games skipped over that part of the story for a reason. It was uninteresting. That being said SoD did what they could with it I think. I still haven't played the whole campaign admittedly.

    The weird thing is that they handled every single original character between both BG1 and BG2 well. Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc, and Dynaheir were all well written and expanded, whereas the EE companions just... weren't.
    There IS a big gap between Neera in BG1 and BG2: she was focusing on running from her mistakes in BG1, and trying to mitigate her wild magic, to going to war with the Red Wizards and running a refuge for wild mages in BG2. Write in an arc in SoD where she starts accepting the random aspects more, maybe find another wild mage, have some growth where she stops thinking only about herself as an individual and as a part of a community before she's randomly the leader of a community in BG2.
    Have Rasaad encounter some other worshippers of Selune or Shar. Have the heresy start to pop up in the Crusade itself, or even something hinting literally anything about Alorgoth and Darathon. Bridge the gap between why the heck he's so sure Alorgoth is Collus Darathon. Or have him relate about losing his brother to some other people that've lost relatives in the Crusade. Even something as small as Minsc's and Dynaheir's interactions would be sufficient!

    I blame my overanalysis to watching videos about characterization and whatnot on YouTube. :tongue:

    DJKajuruFenrirWolfganger
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,341
    leeux wrote: »
    Neverused wrote: »
    <snip>There's a few exceptions, of course: Nalia is probably the weakest NPC in terms of writing, since her own personal quest basically tells us that... she was right about Isaea Roenall? Cool? She doesn't really grow at all.<snip>

    Maybe I'm remembering wrong, or perhaps it's just tinted by nostalgia since it was on my first full playthrough that I took her with me until the end... but, IIRC Nalia grows quite a bit during Throne of Bhaal to the point that I distinctively remember thinking to myself "That was cool... more of that please!"

    But then again, that was quite looong ago... and I might be misremembering :confused:

    I hear she has a newer, bolder set of voice clips in ToB. A lot of players never hear them though, because they have Imoen by that point.

    leeuxFenrirWolfganger
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,940
    Neverused wrote: »
    Corwin, surprisingly. She starts off with such promise with the scene with her daughter and all that. I want to know what happened to the father, or about whether she's a workaholic like Keldorn. I... don't learn any of that.
    You do meet the father, though?

    Chroniclermegamike15
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 785
    I just looked at the wiki for that... I suppose you do, though I've never seen the dialogue even though I just completed SoD with Corwin in my party, alive, for the entire fight. Probably because the safest thing to do in that fight is throw a gazillion area of effect spells around, because it's frankly impossible to figure out what's going on. I rescind that bit, then.

    Chronicler
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 741
    edited September 2019
    You can chat to the father before leaving Baldur’s Gate with the crusade and her daughter I recall outside the Palace, I think that does effectively fill in a lot of background info about her

    ThacoBell
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,220
    I'm not sure if Neverused means "father" as in Corwin's father, or Rohma's father, but you do meet both through the course of the game. You don't really get to learn much about Corwin's father though. It is more or less implied through banter with Corwin that she's not around for Rohma a lot due to her duties as a Flaming Fist captain.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,940
    Ah, I meant Rohma's father can be met in the game. Corwin's father is indeed at the scene in front of the Duchal Palace.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,291
    Funny, I've played through SoD in it's entirety three times I think and have zero recollection of meeting Rohma's father. And IIRC I've used Corwin two times all the way through (one was solo IIRC).

    Neverused
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,282
    Skatan wrote: »
    Funny, I've played through SoD in it's entirety three times I think and have zero recollection of meeting Rohma's father. And IIRC I've used Corwin two times all the way through (one was solo IIRC).


    He's at Dragonspear Castle.

  • leeuxleeux Member Posts: 115
    Chronicler wrote: »
    leeux wrote: »
    Neverused wrote: »
    <snip>There's a few exceptions, of course: Nalia is probably the weakest NPC in terms of writing, since her own personal quest basically tells us that... she was right about Isaea Roenall? Cool? She doesn't really grow at all.<snip>

    Maybe I'm remembering wrong, or perhaps it's just tinted by nostalgia since it was on my first full playthrough that I took her with me until the end... but, IIRC Nalia grows quite a bit during Throne of Bhaal to the point that I distinctively remember thinking to myself "That was cool... more of that please!"

    But then again, that was quite looong ago... and I might be misremembering :confused:

    I hear she has a newer, bolder set of voice clips in ToB. A lot of players never hear them though, because they have Imoen by that point.

    Yeah, that's probably it... still... nice character grow IMO and good epilogue too, IIRC.

    I took Nalia and Imoen both, and left Minsc and Aerie behind in the Ranger hut in that playthrough... rest of the party was Keldorn and Viconia (with happy patch installed... I installed that after I found out about the conflict during SoA! In the end they hated each other but didn't fight) and last was Jaheira. My charname was a Ranger in that run.

    ChroniclerFenrirWolfganger
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Chronicler wrote: »
    leeux wrote: »
    Neverused wrote: »
    <snip>There's a few exceptions, of course: Nalia is probably the weakest NPC in terms of writing, since her own personal quest basically tells us that... she was right about Isaea Roenall? Cool? She doesn't really grow at all.<snip>

    Maybe I'm remembering wrong, or perhaps it's just tinted by nostalgia since it was on my first full playthrough that I took her with me until the end... but, IIRC Nalia grows quite a bit during Throne of Bhaal to the point that I distinctively remember thinking to myself "That was cool... more of that please!"

    But then again, that was quite looong ago... and I might be misremembering :confused:

    I hear she has a newer, bolder set of voice clips in ToB. A lot of players never hear them though, because they have Imoen by that point.

    She also has a couple banters where she realizes that not only is she noble, but she is a powerful archmage, and she has to come to terms with the political and martial sway she has. She drops the idealistic robin hood esque antics and says she will change things from the top down, and push for political reform.

    leeuxChroniclerZaxares
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,617
    nalia feels like someone that really needs a friendship mod. she has a romance but i want something that helps her transition from her soa characterization to the one she has in tob become less jarring.

    leeuxFenrirWolfganger
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,291
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    Skatan wrote: »
    Funny, I've played through SoD in it's entirety three times I think and have zero recollection of meeting Rohma's father. And IIRC I've used Corwin two times all the way through (one was solo IIRC).


    He's at Dragonspear Castle.

    Maybe because I'm always maxed out EXP wise long before Dragonspear castle I don't really care about running small 500 exp errands or talk to every pleb there is. Well, now I've googled it and it looks like it's an interesting story arc there. Thanks for the heads-up.

    ilduderinoFenrirWolfganger
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,613
    I hate Elminster. I try my best to avoid meeting him but he keeps showing up being all enigmatic and judgy and useless.

    And I hate his pointy hat.


    PS. I don't hate @elminster - he seems like a thoroughly nice guy.


    Though why he would want to name himself after Elminster beats me.

    StummvonBordwehrelminsterFenrirWolfganger
  • HafirHafir Member Posts: 64
    somebody should make a poll with that question might be interesting outcome

  • VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 170
    Edwin, for philosophical reasons. Never had him in my party in any of the playthroughs. There is a nice and balanced set of NPCs in BG1, each with a minor bonus power, and then you have Edwin who has ridiculous advantage over any other mage in the game. Then they figured out that having one extra spell per level is not enough of a bonus, so they gave him TWO extra spells per level in BG2.

    In SoD, Safana and Glint. Two most annoying characters in the whole series. When I reach SoD, I always feel sorry for not having CHARNAME who is some sort of thief, so I have to drag one of these two with me.

    I am also not a big fan of Minsc.

    Of, enemies, I hate Tarnesh and Silkie. These two combines, especially with SCS installed, are responsibie for most of my deaths.

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,326
    This is a fun thread. I have to say, looking back at the game after the years, the characters that aged poorly were pretty much all the Greenwood munchkins. Elminster, Volo and Drizzt and maybe anymore that I missed. Playing the game now, they just feel hugely out of place. They sort of take you out of the main plot, even when they are there to serve it. And there's little ultimate payoff to their appearance in the series, save for what Drizzt does at the end of SoA. But even that's not enough.

    It's not to say these characters are bad in general, or in their older stories. And I understand why Bioware thought the fan service was worth including at the time. But they seem out of place with the main conflict. Their humor doesn't land for me. And especially Elminster's cryptic silliness makes little sense if you think hard enough about it.

    StummvonBordwehrjasteyenergisedcamelFenrirWolfganger
  • FenrirWolfgangerFenrirWolfganger Member Posts: 11
    edited April 19
    Seniyad's last speech is enlightening if you really want to go into the whys and wherefores because he says "you will suffer together with your hunter friends". So the real crime in Seniyad's eyes is not the alleged murder but the fact that Aldeth and his companions are hunters.

    That's it. I just replayed this scene recently, don't know how often since '98, but I never clicked that Seniyad's target is "hunter" not "murdering", that's the real issue. Since he has 16 Charisma he could really do better. (The Wiki suggests Doublegangers are behind this which is a theory I like).

    Otherwise I don't tend to hate characters, if they're Joinable characters I just have one's I prefer, if they're NPC's I kill the annoying one's (or pretend they're customers at work). I do hate Hobgoblins with Poison Arrows though.

    One major bug for me though is I only recently came across on this forum timelines of what happened when and realized that Viconia fled House DeVir before Drizzt was born over 90 years ago yet was still Level 1 when I met her. Ok so she lost her priest levels when she left Lloth but hadn't gone up one level since? Ok so she spent some time with a fat merchant from Calimshan but Level one. That's almost as ridiculous as seasoned adventures Khalid and Jaheira being Level one. Is there some secret group of Vampire's nearby draining people's levels but rather than killing they casting amnesia spells and send them on their way, for Lolz and Yucks I suppose.

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