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  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited November 2018
    the only rational answer but it comes too late. the mainstream liberal reaction was relativization of the upcoming crisis by claiming that the migrants are very far away, that it will take them a long time to arrive, and that they will disperse along the way.

    after i saw that i've been having such a dim view of things... i'm totally overcome by pessimism. trump absolutely controlled the narative, just by hanging onto the facts first (and they were not alternative facts this time) and putting a generic rightist spin on it, and instead of undoing his spin, the media was undoing the facts that there's going to be a difficult situation at the border, no matter how you turn it around.

    why, oh why must they suck so bad
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    bob_veng said:

    the only rational answer but it comes too late. the mainstream liberal reaction was relativization of the upcoming crisis by claiming that the migrants are very far away, that it will take them a long way to arrive, and that they will disperse along the way.

    after i saw that i've been having such a dim view of things... i'm totally overcome by pessimism. trump absolutely controlled the narative, just by hanging onto the facts first (and they were not alternative facts this time) and putting a generic rightist spin on it, and instead of undoing his spin, the media was undoing the facts that there's going to be a difficult situation at the border, no matter how you turn it around.

    why, oh why must they suck so bad
    Yeah let's just send the message that you can charge the border and that way you will get to skip everyone else and go right to the front of the line for visa applications.


    Is that what we are going to do for the next wave? And the next wave? Is curtailing this sort of behavior not at all a priority?


    This is why Trump controlled the narrative. It looks terrible because it is terrible and nobody should want this sort of thing happening let alone encourage more of it. Rewarding it with special treatment encourages it.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited November 2018



    Listen to what you're saying. Freely traveling and working between America, Mexico, and Canada is open borders. Can't get more open borders than that, really.


    If you meant between states, we already have that.

    Restrictions can still be put in place. I think the eventual goal of allowing travel, residence (but not citizenship) and employment was a goal. Then again, it was just a blurb in a statement, maybe I should defer more to her comments on the matter (The one where she says she doesnt advocate for open borders - in this case meaning illegal immigration into the EU or the US).



    Irrelevant. Not related at all to the statistics I posted, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't arguing that an economic boost is worth the flipside to their policies.

    You've actually proven my point a bit here. I'm not making any argument based on *two* news articles, because that's flatly absurd. The information is incomplete, and doesnt appear to include a great deal of sourcing.

    Edit - to clarify. It was more to show that I can also google up stories about immigrants (only, positive ones). The issue isnt one sided, so we need to stop pretending it is.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308

    bob_veng said:

    the only rational answer but it comes too late. the mainstream liberal reaction was relativization of the upcoming crisis by claiming that the migrants are very far away, that it will take them a long way to arrive, and that they will disperse along the way.

    after i saw that i've been having such a dim view of things... i'm totally overcome by pessimism. trump absolutely controlled the narative, just by hanging onto the facts first (and they were not alternative facts this time) and putting a generic rightist spin on it, and instead of undoing his spin, the media was undoing the facts that there's going to be a difficult situation at the border, no matter how you turn it around.

    why, oh why must they suck so bad
    Yeah let's just send the message that you can charge the border and that way you will get to skip everyone else and go right to the front of the line for visa applications.


    Is that what we are going to do for the next wave? And the next wave? Is curtailing this sort of behavior not at all a priority?


    This is why Trump controlled the narrative. It looks terrible because it is terrible and nobody should want this sort of thing happening let alone encourage more of it. Rewarding it with special treatment encourages it.
    who's saying that all "visa applications" - in fact asylum applications would be accepted? there isn't a line for asylum applications.

    trump controlled the narrative because the democrats and mainstream media gauged that if the public is frankly told that there is going to be a difficult situation that absolutely calls for a strong institutional response, and that it's not something totally unprecedented anymore, having in mind the recent migrant crisis in europe, the majority of people would be scared and they would not understand what the appropriate, legal and effective response to the crisis is. the contrary element of the media narrative would break down and the effects on public opinion would be unpredictable.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2018
    Trump and the Border Patrol literally shut down all incoming and outgoing traffic from Mexico in San Diego. American citizens were stranded in Mexico, denied the right to even re-enter their own country. Was martial law declared?? I must have missed that part. And they shut down the actual border crossings in San Diego ON PURPOSE to force them to congregate at the fence.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811




    This is true, although it leaves out that 2018 had 29 cases.

    One particularly annoying example of media manipulation is the dishonest framing of bipartisan routine behavior out as some aberrant deviation from the norm with sinister undertones.

    I've said it before and I certainly didn't invent the phrase but the biggest lies these activists who call themselves journalists tell are in what they leave out rather than what they outright fabricate.

    They play for their team.
    Because it was the only time the media was present when the gas was used.

    With the image of children running away from a cannister (a powerful picture all by itself), it becomes more real than just words. Pictures do not lie.

    It is like this picture here:

    This wasn't the first child to die of starvation in Africa, but it was the one who brought a higher awareness to the issue. To make everyone sit and say "It's that bad?"

    What that tweet (as all tweets do) is missing is context. why, and on who was tear gas used on in all those other cases? We don't know, mainly because a journalist wasn't there to report on it. This time there was, and its now a legitimate question to ask: Should tear gas be used to disperse people looking to enter the country illegally?
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    In other news - There is now only 1 seat in the House of Representatives that has not been called. CA-21. Well. Sortof. It was called for the Republican Valadao on election night, but as absentee ballots and provisional ballots have been counted, the Democrat took the lead yesterday. Judging by where the votes are left to be counted, it sounds like the Democrats will end up winning this seat.

    If that comes to pass, the Democrats will have picked up a full 40 seats in the House of Representatives. This only trails 2010, 2006 and 1992 for the largest such changes in recent history.

    I've seen reports that the Popular House Vote total will fall within a few percentage points of Trump's popular vote count in 2016 (like 61 million voted Democrat for the house in 2018 vs 63 million that voted for Donald Trump in 2016). There's only been a single instance of so narrow a margin in prior history (I think it was Jimmy Carter and his midterm, but I could be wrong).

    For a midterm, that's kind of insane.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2018
    Trump Makes Up MORE Lies About Border Closure

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_p5xIvyen4&t=285s

    Some lies pulled from his posterior from Trump below, I mean who believes his nonsense constant lies:

    "the good kind of tear gas!" <- there's only one kind
    "500 known criminals!" <- pulled from thin air
    "3 border agents seriously injured by rocks!" contradicted by the head of Customs and Border Patrol, a Trump appointee, who said no one got hurt.

    Trump has less than zero credibility. Absolutely disgusting.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2018
    He also called the adults at the border "grabbers", as in, people who just randomly grab children as human shields when in a crisis. This is only a thing in the climax of "The Dead Zone", not something that exists in real life.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    He also called the adults at the border "grabbers", as in, people who just randomly grab children as human shields when in a crisis. This is only a thing in the climax of "The Dead Zone", not something that exists in real life.

    made up out of thin air. "Grabbers" what the crazy hell is this lunatic talking about.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    He also called the adults at the border "grabbers", as in, people who just randomly grab children as human shields when in a crisis. This is only a thing in the climax of "The Dead Zone", not something that exists in real life.

    made up out of thin air. "Grabbers" what the crazy hell is this lunatic talking about.
    And you know, maybe we could have a discussion about this immigration situation if we had a reasonable figurehead in this country setting the tone. But instead he has to take every opportunity to slander them en masse as inhuman monsters and parasites.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2018

    He also called the adults at the border "grabbers", as in, people who just randomly grab children as human shields when in a crisis. This is only a thing in the climax of "The Dead Zone", not something that exists in real life.

    made up out of thin air. "Grabbers" what the crazy hell is this lunatic talking about.
    And you know, maybe we could have a discussion about this immigration situation if we had a reasonable figurehead in this country setting the tone. But instead he has to take every opportunity to slander them en masse as inhuman monsters and parasites.
    And just make stuff up. "Grabbers". What.
    Why even lie about that? Why just make stuff up. Those of us who live in the real world just shake our heads. He's always just inventing harmful lies out of thin air.

    He said in a court deposition back in the day that his wealth was based on whatever he felt. Could be five million. Could be five billion. We should not take this clown seriously yet here we are acting like the Emperor has clothes on.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    Here is an interesting video about victoria secret

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUcSSJoWqy4

    I know Victoria's Secret. Nobody over 21 can wear her clothing. :P
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2018
    Looks like Republican Cindy Hyde-Smith wins the Mississippi Senate seat.

    Shaming Republicans is useless, it seems they have no shame.

    Pedophiles, kitty grabbers, neo-confederates, racists, those are GOP stars. That's gold, Jerry. Gold! Well I suppose the one pedophile didn't win but the rest did. You just gotta wonder what is up with people's lives that they find that behavior attractive? How sad are you lol that you hand over your freedom to these guys?

    Voter: "That's what I want a guy who grabs women by the kitty, doesn't even ask! That's great!"

    Why?

    It's baffling to me. I guess they are so scared of the people with little to no power that Fox News and Trump fearmonger about. Then they vote in these bad people and their agenda such as it is to give themselves tax cuts, cut business regulations and make things worse for you. Way to go. I don't get it. But watch out for that mom and her kids feeling violence in a third world country! Right....
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Okay, Trump News, behind a Spoiler Tag.

    White House approves military to use lethal force at southern border

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/11/21/white-house-approves-military-use-lethal-force-border-migrant-caravan/2082306002/?fbclid=IwAR2TAV83Rl1HM1c7z0EtlUsAJrZBWd-kPHbnJ_qBzqkNFusWbnooPUtVHbM
    Lethal force?! Really?!!

    Trump threatens to cut GM’s federal subsidies over layoffs

    https://nypost.com/2018/11/27/trump-threatens-to-cut-gms-federal-subsidies-over-layoffs/?fbclid=IwAR2QSRQpyZGRmIDFypUF7xH4SV-7JR7EAK5vDcxOgv8RsbXbUDECqMBiLcM
    Because that will *really* Help the situation!

    Donald Trump Gets Fact-Checked By Reporter Right To His Face, Walks Away

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-fact-checked-by-reporter_us_5bfd0cb8e4b0771fb6bda02e?guccounter=1&fbclid=IwAR2efuqol1cRjV8HZPqQWSvgwJemYCkEPdrW0NyaZrjzjwh8hdKaQFXTeFM
    A reporter earned praise Monday after she called out President Donald Trump, over one of his more questionable claims, right to his face.
    CBS’ Paula Reid challenged Trump over his discredited assertion that his administration’s policy of separating migrant children from their families at the U.S.-Mexico border was the same as that conducted by former President Barack Obama.
    “Obama had a separation policy. We all had the same policy,” Trump said. “You did not have it, sir. No, you didn’t,” Reid fired back.
    Trump said he “tried to do it differently” and claimed “Obama had a separation policy” but “people don’t like to talk about it.” As Trump walked away, Reid said: “Sir, it was different. You decided to prosecute everyone at the border.”

    Tear-gassed toddlers: a chilling symbol of Trump’s illegal immigration policies

    https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2018/11/tear-gassed-toddlers-chilling-symbol-trump-s-illegal-immigration?fbclid=IwAR0iZ42ocOHFl9c77exsiNsEyR0W1ydLf0W00AQ_uk_pCuMxgqpYs46O1dY
    The Trump administration shows a flagrant disregard for international refugee law.
    Yes, he does. And this makes me virulently angry. Nobody should Tear-gas asylum seekers, especially NOT children!

    New Mexican government contradicts Trump claim on migrants and asylum

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-new-mexican-government-contradicts-trump-claim-on-migrants-and-asylum/?fbclid=IwAR2cmDzZaGL6eEYniFFcMPQJEE9_ljdPN_Kg5rQ715N0S2q-cNI6-iAaPQg
    Mexico’s incoming government denied a report Saturday that it plans to allow asylum seekers to wait in the country while their claims move through U.S. immigration courts, one of several options the Trump administration has been pursuing in negotiations for months.
    The deal was seen as a way to dissuade thousands of Central American migrants from seeking asylum in the U.S., a process that can take years. In effect, Mexican border towns are already acting as waiting rooms for migrants hoping to start new lives in the United States due to bottlenecks at the border.
    “There is no agreement of any sort between the incoming Mexican government and the U.S. government,” future interior minister Olga Sanchez said in a statement.
    Trump lied again. Imagine my surprise. :neutral:

    The past 24 hours in Trump-Russia news, explained

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/27/18114355/manafort-assange-mueller-corsi-trump-russia?fbclid=IwAR17z50D_c7iYBSA8k_lNHpCszxzPTHb3LgyHVgSK9tCM2bbBg11xbsYp38

    Farmers are going bankrupt thanks to Trump’s trade war

    https://shareblue.com/trump-trade-war-bankrupting-farms/
    Trump’s trade war continues to wreak havoc on farms in the Midwest, with a sharp increase in farmers filing for bankruptcy over the past year.
    And “the worst is likely yet to come,” the Star Tribune reports, based on an analysis by the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis finding that the bankruptcy trend “has not yet seen a peak.”

    Trump's War on Facts is getting worse, but the new Democratic House Majority can fight back

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2018/11/27/trumps-war-on-facts-is-getting-worse-but-the-new-democratic-majority-can-fight-back/?fbclid=IwAR33NJb5uxi4-RT9QTpI9VEbYIgjhaOf30m7GcOLEL8iQfvf41zXS646qOM&utm_term=.fa288a5b8d0c
    And they will, if they know what's good for them.

    It looks like a big day for Collusion. No Wonder Trump is Raging

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2018/11/27/its-a-big-day-for-collusion-no-wonder-trump-is-raging/?utm_term=.f4181a190294&fbclid=IwAR3qKXPW5l7dogZcBtFVNWssowxQVSvjROFOX9MRWNjrrkOYaQ7Va6MLrDc

    The GOP is now the party of neo-Confederates

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-gop-is-now-the-party-of-neo-confederates/2018/11/25/d5d9dd88-f109-11e8-bc79-68604ed88993_story.html?fbclid=IwAR1byCg5icRod7OMb8qlDOpflh7owHk1Z-pmJW0fJHnR9uocwuFawvXQvN0&utm_term=.a2e2992b3798
    In some ways, they always have been.

    ‘The rule of law is worth pushing’: Intel Dem ready to fight Mitch McConnell to protect Robert Mueller

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/rule-law-worth-pushing-intel-dem-ready-fight-mitch-mcconnell-protect-robert-mueller/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR3ltU2lkYghNBLzco1e4Fv_NFbysNNh8I7hncmL6W8B8cIekNNa6tDmY0c
    Again, this is good.
    Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell could be risking a government shutdown if he does not allow a vote on a bipartisan bill to protect special counsel Robert Mueller.

    Two posts on Twitter, I completely agree with:

    https://www.facebook.com/ConservativesAreDestroyingOurFuture/photos/a.620455781304096/2400657563283900/?type=3&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/341113802569909/photos/a.347869171894372/1850653058282635/?type=3&theater

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Non-Trump news, also behind a spoiler tag

    Mississippi voters send Hyde-Smith back to the US Senate after a runoff marred by controversy

    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/mississippi-voters-head-polls-special-election-marred-controversy-090903442--abc-news-topstories.html?.tsrc=notification-brknews
    The woman who joked about being in the front row if a big contributor asked her to a public hanging has been elected.

    Explosive New Report Says CIA Has Taped Recording Of Saudi Crown Prince Ordering Jamal Khashoggi’s Killing

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/explosive-report-says-cia-taped-140835003.html?soc_src=hl-viewer&soc_trk=fb&fbclid=IwAR0OfEfoOMTM05AUSToISNFoGYxEpPEQANTIqCJdHLe64dY4MT7LWI9eko0
    In a massive new twist to the saga surrounding the brutal murder of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi, a bombshell new report in a Turkish newspaper now claims that the CIA finally has the evidence it needs to implicate Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of murder, according to Haaretz.
    Ever since the killing of Khashoggi in Istanbul’s Saudi embassy in early October, Turkish media has steadily published reports accusing the Saudi administration of carrying out the execution. While Saudi Arabia denied any knowledge of the killing and pleaded innocence initially, the constant barrage of growing evidence has meant that it has had to alter its position on the killing. Even so, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman still claims to have not given the order to kill Khashoggi, leading Donald Trump on Wednesday to issue a statement which said that there was no way to know the truth, but the explosive new report could change all that.

    WikiLeaks calls for Guardian editor’s decapitation if Manafort story proves false

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/18114380/wikileaks-trump-julian-assange-decapitation-manafort?fbclid=IwAR0vmYmyCzcuKlgOkK8Sa0nYIFUR_6uhIn_sDKJhs6gWsf7QZXPQDqkd1-M
    President Donald Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, held multiple meetings with WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange around the time that Manafort was brought on to run Trump’s campaign, according to The Guardian. Assange has vehemently opposed the integrity of the report, calling for the editor of paper’s head.
    Gosh, that's awfully Middle Eastern punishment of them!

    Manafort held secret talks with Assange in Ecuadorian embassy, sources say

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy?fbclid=IwAR0Q5J5HT6wcTKRzWQxCG5N-HZdPhmcYSZiRg9Rtaa2gw3cLBK1gBQruNLI
    And this is the report WikiLeaks is so up in arms about. According to the article:
    Donald Trump’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort held secret talks with Julian Assange inside the Ecuadorian embassy in London, and visited around the time he joined Trump’s campaign, the Guardian has been told.
    Sources have said Manafort went to see Assange in 2013, 2015 and in spring 2016 – during the period when he was made a key figure in Trump’s push for the White House.

    The NRA Just Reported Losing $55 Million in Income

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-nra-just-reported-losing-dollar55-million-in-income?fbclid=IwAR0DhdbibB18ci4rzG1FqlDY1bd1FUsB95YRwqSNTFGMF7Mh7xpyJYuRyeo
    The gun-rights group has its biggest champion in the White House. But its financial situation has worsened in the age of Trump
    Good. It purports to be a club for gun owners, but it's really a organization championing the rights of gun makers. And if you're black and want to own a gun, the NRA won't back you. When Black Panthers stood up for gun rights, the NRA said, basically, that not *everyone* should own a gun. So I like this very much.

    Transgender Asylum-Seeker Who Died In ICE Custody Was Beaten, Autopsy Shows

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/roxsana-hernandez-transgender-asylum-seeker-autopsy_us_5bfd0f20e4b03b230fa66995?utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&utm_medium=facebook&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000046&utm_source=women_fb&fbclid=IwAR0bPOxbIMJ-fxi-TIx4YpBsRleFHlOykaf9EXjuXRPvWrtLLRUTRyzpjQM
    Why, no this should be of no concern at all. ::Heavy sarcasm::
    Roxsana Hernández Rodriguez had “deep bruises” on her body and died of dehydration, an independent autopsy found.
    A transgender asylum-seeker who fell sick and died while being held by Immigration and Customs Enforcement may have been beaten while in federal custody, according to an independent autopsy report released this week.
    The body of 33-year-old trans woman Roxsana Hernández Rodriguez was marked by “deep bruises” and “contusions” consistent with “blows and/or kicks and possible strikes with a blunt object,” The Washington Post reported on Monday, citing the autopsy commissioned by Hernández’s family. Her wrists showed signs of extensive hemorrhaging, which the report said was “typical of handcuff injuries.”
    The autopsy shows Hernández “endured physical assault and abuse while in custody,” said the California-based Transgender Law Center, which, along with other activist groups, plans to file a wrongful death lawsuit against ICE and other federal immigration agencies on behalf of Hernández’s family. The report also shows that Hernández, who was HIV-positive, died from “severe complications of dehydration” exacerbated by HIV infection.
    Nobody deserves to die like this. NO ONE.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2018
    LadyRhian said:

    Non-Trump news, also behind a spoiler tag

    Mississippi voters send Hyde-Smith back to the US Senate after a runoff marred by controversy

    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/mississippi-voters-head-polls-special-election-marred-controversy-090903442--abc-news-topstories.html?.tsrc=notification-brknews
    The woman who joked about being in the front row if a big contributor asked her to a public hanging has been elected.
    She also said it'd be great if it was harder for liberals to vote. Hahaha right. No votes for you. What a laugh. Voting, right, it's not allowed.

    ----------------

    Anyway, here's a good short read.

    The near-certain guilt of President Trump

    https://theweek.com/articles/809544/nearcertain-guilt-president-trump

    And it's being reported that Manafort has been informing Trump's lawyers about Mueller even after he plead guilty.

    Manafort’s Lawyer Said to Brief Trump Attorneys on What He Told Mueller

    Prosecutors from the special counsel’s office have said that Paul Manafort breached his plea agreement by lying to them after he agreed to cooperate with their inquiry.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/us/politics/manafort-lawyer-trump-cooperation.html

    Seems Manfort has been holding back and reporting to Trump's legal team. And lying.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    edited November 2018
    The Swedish rape statistics argument against immigration has been used forever now, even though it doesn’t work. Ever since Nigel Farage first came with his ”rape capital” quote, people (including me in the old thread) have pointed out over and over and over again why it’s wrong and why it’s notoriously difficult to compare rape statistics at all. Different legal definition, different ways to sort files and higher inclination to report - I’m sure a lot of you have heard those three several times by now.

    And that's not saying that Sweden doesn't have a problem with rape. It's saying that the entire world has a huge problem with rape. And that statistics is a tricky business.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2018
    Donald Trump during his campaign:

    "If I'm elected, you won't lose one plant. You’ll have plants coming into this country," then-candidate Donald Trump said at a campaign rally in Warren, Michigan, in October, 2016. "You’re going to have jobs again, you won’t lose one plant. I promise you. I promise you.”

    And at a rally in Youngstown, Ohio, in July of last year, the president vowed to bring more factory jobs back to the area.

    "They're all coming back," he told the crowd. "Don't sell your house . . . We're going to fill up those factories or rip them down and build new ones."


    GM announces it is cutting 15,000 jobs, many in Ohio and Michigan. Trump on Tuesday:

    "We don't like it. I believe they'll be opening up something else. And I was very tough. I spoke with her when I heard they were closing and I said, you know, this country has done a lot for general motors. You better get back in there soon."


    I'm sure they are quaking in their boots considering Trump and his Congress signed a bill that just handed them half a BILLION dollars last year. His tariffs are directly causing massive layoffs in the two most important states for his re-election. Oh, and for the record, Obama and his policies saved GM and the auto industry after the recession. And Trump came in and has started the process of destroying it within two years. So much winning.

    Trump has tied nearly all of whatever actual credibility he has to the economy by EXPLICITLY taking credit for every positive piece of economic news. The problem with that strategy is that you then leave yourself open to taking the blame for all bad economic news (which in this case is actually 100% his fault). You can't have your cake and eat it too. Trump has time and again declared himself as the sole reason for positive economic news. It is absurd to then argue he shouldn't be held accountable for the bad news, by his OWN STANDARDS.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    LadyRhian said:

    Here is an interesting video about victoria secret

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUcSSJoWqy4

    I know Victoria's Secret. Nobody over 21 can wear her clothing. :P
    No, but most people who criticize the "model industry" tends to be very hypocrite. For example :

    - Naomi Campbell being the most successful UK model = Good, it will empower minorities)
    - Gisele Bundchen being the most successful BR model = This shows how beauty is Eurocentric and the model industry is racist. How dare people find Gisele Bundchen more attractive than Mc Carol in a white minority country!!!
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    More Trump News behind a Spoiler Tag.

    CNN airs fact-check graphics during Sanders press briefing

    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/418598-cnn-airs-fact-check-graphics-during-sanders-press-briefing?amp&fbclid=IwAR1YAAFXjMg9tMdbYEOKG1zBi5IBLVjMApoSfO9fB6-tmlYs-cocFol_i7c
    Seriously? This is a good thing. I smiled at this story.
    CNN ran fact-check graphics while broadcasting White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders's press briefing on Tuesday.

    DOJ urges justices not to delve into Whitaker appointment

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/26/doj-supreme-court-whitaker-1017365?fbclid=IwAR3Zy1bRRuNeEILrraxZ7uES5LFNAENERhUrgWElgGts74pjSlg-wvnGaDA
    Oh, dear! Do think they might... find something? Something injurious to Trump and/or Whitaker? I do declare!
    The Justice Department is urging the Supreme Court to turn down — at least for now — a chance to weigh in on whether President Donald Trump acted legally when he installed former Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ chief of staff, Matthew Whitaker, as acting attorney general earlier this month after demanding Sessions’ resignation.
    Litigants in several different courts have questioned the legality of Trump’s move, but Solicitor General Noel Francisco told the Supreme Court on Monday that it should stay out of the fray until lower courts had a chance to weigh in.
    Yes, lower courts should weigh in first. But, honestly...

    Trump Historian finds German decree banishing Trump's grandfather

    Royal decree ordered Friedrich Trump to leave Bavaria and never come back after he failed to do military service
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/21/trump-grandfather-friedrich-banished-germany-historian-royal-decree?fbclid=IwAR1oh9XT8HOEwseuXDXE9MYyArg3lIoL19OUt_8ksEd8UySNXHJ52WTgBUg
    Wow, he sounds like his grandsom, Commander Bonespurs!

    Lost jobs, shrinking growth, and rotting crops — here are the ways Trump's trade war is hurting America

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-china-trade-war-all-the-industries-hurt-by-us-tariffs-2018-11?r=UK&IR=T&fbclid=IwAR2GqRJs-yLPoqAW-P4f0SNKGpVJBrbM3nYcm9S0E0EKH1c3mDQqwOin-Wk
    Eight months on from the opening salvos of President Donald Trump's trade war, and the real-world impacts are starting to be felt across the globe.
    The US, which the trade war was ostensibly launched to protect, looks as if it is likely to be the worst affected, with some forecasters suggesting that as much as 1 percentage point could be knocked off economic growth in the coming years.

    Major TV Network Refuses To Air Sarah Sanders Press Briefing, Tired Of The Lies

    http://dctribune.org/major-tv-network-refuses-to-air-sarah-sanders-press-briefing-tired-of-the-lies/?fbclid=IwAR1U-Cylpw10e2O5HuXe6Hyt8inaTAhfhynBdS7xibH85DCRRid-gLeVD3M
    In what looks like perhaps a new policy altogether for the network, MSNBC elected not to air the White House’s first press briefing in nearly a month — since October 29, before the midterm election — instead showing their normal programming of Velshi & Ruhle, who were discussing the disastrous effects of both Trump’s tariffs and his comments on General Motors, whose stock has taken a dive today after the President’s dizzying reversal of conservative policy regarding private business.

    GM warned Trump that his China tariffs would hurt jobs. He now complains that it's happening.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-trade-war-trump-blames-gm-for-job-losses-caused-by-his-tariffs-2018-11?fbclid=IwAR30OmS1S_3alXHGhoSJ1vhR5aDv_OI0fHNM3awQD5FPrt2Xh7YrErDbShs
    I bet his concern was "How dare you make me look bad!"

    Trump’s Washington Post interview shows a presidency that’s beyond satire

    https://www.vox.com/2018/11/27/18115395/trumps-washington-post-interview-gut?fbclid=IwAR0TVrYkv5sYQmUFuK5ZrmdrWRGzN8GwhqHBxhhR6J8YL0xtViy008msTgw
    "Go from the Gut. And Bring a Rake." ::Sigh.:: I think we need less gut and more brain!

    Border officials are separating families again by falsely accusing parents of gang membership

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/11/28/1815773/-Border-officials-are-separating-families-again-by-falsely-accusing-parents-of-gang-membership?detail=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2qdHphDfCp7cc6ZKHCDmINfvFgsBmURERsmvjw6l6BKOYss2_8b77rzpA
    I know I saw a woman with two toddlers who belonged to the Elsa: Frozen Gang... :P
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    edited November 2018
    Non-Trump type news, also under spoiler

    Border Officials are Separating Families Again by Falsely Accusing Parents of Gang Membership

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/11/28/1815773/-Border-officials-are-separating-families-again-by-falsely-accusing-parents-of-gang-membership?detail=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2qdHphDfCp7cc6ZKHCDmINfvFgsBmURERsmvjw6l6BKOYss2_8b77rzpA
    And then not telling agencies they are supposed to report to about this. One young boy, Brian, was separated from his father, Julio, and given to people to care for, telling them that he was an unaccompanied minor. :P This is just horrendous.

    Christian Pastor: Roy Moore Likes Teen Girls Because They’re Pure

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2017/11/christian-pastor-roy-moore-likes-teen-girls-theyre-pure/?fbclid=IwAR2REJZ7AZxiNC85FvuaUilssSmSSj4rsQcJoP2vo9Btmx7IGSzB-3bxN20
    And once he has his way with them, they are no longer pure. But hey, there are plenty more like that out there for him to prey on next! :angry:
    Christian Pastor Flip Benham justifies Roy Moore’s pursuit of a 14-year-old girl by claiming “there is something about the purity of a young woman.”
    There's just something about a pedophile, or, excuse me, an ephebeophile, that makes me make a face like I've just gotten a whiff of Raw Sewage.
    For the record, “Philip “Flip” Benham is an Evangelical Christian minister and the national leader of Concord, North Carolina-based Operation Save America, a pro-life group that evolved from another pro-life organization, Operation Rescue.” He is also a long time friend and supporter of Roy Moore.
    Bottom line: Another leading conservative Christian is willing to justify crimes against children in order to promote their political candidate.
    Now that's sad!

    Killing Of American Missionary Ignites Debate Over How To Evangelize

    https://www.npr.org/2018/11/27/671285330/killing-of-american-missionary-ignites-debate-over-how-to-evangelize?fbclid=IwAR21KaefPcEw8hKMM7YdhQdRtg8t0Zdfpaj7VybwXSyZCxkeXJx7TxMERkI
    Christians who are killed while on a mission to spread the Gospel are often considered martyrs and treated as heroes of the faith.
    But there has been little celebration for John Allen Chau, the 26-year-old American missionary who was killed by indigenous people this month after sneaking onto North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal.
    The island is inhabited by a few hundred people whose ancestors are believed to have migrated to the Andaman archipelago from Africa more than 50,000 years ago. For centuries, the Sentinelese have resisted all contact with the outside world, sometimes violently. As a result, any intrusion by outsiders, Chau included, could bring communicable diseases against which the islanders had no immunity.
    Anyone who would say "At least they'd die Christian", is a horrible, horrible person.
    "Even though I share his faith, Chau had no business going to those people," wrote Rod Dreher, a Christian writer whose blog in The American Conservative is widely read.
    "Chau could not have preached to these people," Dreher wrote. "Nobody speaks their language. How on earth could he have witnessed to them?"
    But Chau was not deterred.
    He hired local fishermen to take him near the island and then ventured closer in a kayak, disregarding local laws that prohibited outsiders from visiting the island.
    "My name is John!" he hollered when he spotted some Sentinelese men on shore. "I love you, and Jesus loves you. Jesus Christ gave me authority to come to you."
    He dared go no closer, but in journal entries he described how he went back later with gifts to offer, only to retreat again when a young man shot an arrow at him.
    "Lord," he wrote, "is this island Satan's last stronghold, where none have heard or even had a chance to hear your name?"
    In his final journal entry, on Nov. 16, Chau left instructions with the fishermen for contacting friends, family and colleagues.
    "You guys might think I'm crazy in all this," he said, "but I think it's worth it to declare Jesus to these people. Please do not be angry at them or at God if I get killed."
    The next day the fishermen saw the islanders dragging Chau's body along the beach and then burying it. Indian police authorities have concluded, for now, that it is impossible to retrieve the body, given the risk of a confrontation with the Sentinelese people.
    And now he's dead. I feel no sorrow at his passing. He lived stupidly and he died a stupid, pointless death. He didn't think about what he might have done to these people, and apparently, he didn't care if his presence might have killed them.
    Stupidity kills. He might have thought he was intelligent, but he was stupid. And he died for it.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694

    LadyRhian said:

    Here is an interesting video about victoria secret

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUcSSJoWqy4

    I know Victoria's Secret. Nobody over 21 can wear her clothing. :P
    No, but most people who criticize the "model industry" tends to be very hypocrite. For example :

    - Naomi Campbell being the most successful UK model = Good, it will empower minorities)
    - Gisele Bundchen being the most successful BR model = This shows how beauty is Eurocentric and the model industry is racist. How dare people find Gisele Bundchen more attractive than Mc Carol in a white minority country!!!
    One of my friends says, "Victoria's Secret is that she dresses like a ho'."
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    Trump Historian finds German decree banishing Trump's grandfather

    Royal decree ordered Friedrich Trump to leave Bavaria and never come back after he failed to do military service
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/21/trump-grandfather-friedrich-banished-germany-historian-royal-decree?fbclid=IwAR1oh9XT8HOEwseuXDXE9MYyArg3lIoL19OUt_8ksEd8UySNXHJ52WTgBUg
    Wow, he sounds like his grandsom, Commander Bonespurs!


    Actually, not really. I posted this in the lesser known history thread. Trump's Grandfather left Germany when he was 16 and he wasn't interested in going back until his fiancée became homesick. He moved back to Germany for her (Donald would never do this). The military service was to be conducted while he was making his fortune in the U.S. Since he failed to tell Germany he was leaving (as a 16 year old, you don't think of these consequences) and he missed his service, they told him he couldn't settle.

    He was also a self-made business man (albeit in the brothel business) unlike his grandson.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited November 2018
    JoenSo said:

    The Swedish rape statistics argument against immigration has been used forever now, even though it doesn’t work. Ever since Nigel Farage first came with his ”rape capital” quote, people (including me in the old thread) have pointed out over and over and over again why it’s wrong and why it’s notoriously difficult to compare rape statistics at all. Different legal definition, different ways to sort files and higher inclination to report - I’m sure a lot of you have heard those three several times by now.

    And that's not saying that Sweden doesn't have a problem with rape. It's saying that the entire world has a huge problem with rape. And that statistics is a tricky business.

    I was never really sure what those obfuscation tactics were ever supposed to prove. It doesn't have any relevance to who it is that are doing the crimes, meaning it doesn't touch on the immigration topic at all. It is, at best, an attempt to muddy the waters on irrelevant points. Maybe in some cases, possibly, there's a chance it's more like a really bad case of sexual assault and not a rape. Wonderful. What's that have to do with the fact that an extremely oversized portion of the criminals involved are not from there and wouldn't be there with a better border policy?
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    A North Texas woman, Rosa Ortega, was sentenced to 8 years in prison for illegally voting.

    The woman is a green card holder who almost certainly will be deported after her prison sentence. She has four kids, US citizens, aged between 13 and 16.

    She could not find a permanent resident option on election forms so Ms. Ortega, who has a sixth grade education, checked the box that said citizen because she was a citizen of Mexico.

    Others people who have voted like this have received probation. It is assumed that the AG of Texas, Ken Paxton, wanted to make an example of her to feed the false Republican narrative of rampant voter fraud. Ms. Ortega voted for Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and had registered as a Republican.

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/election/article222302160.html
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    More breaking "news"... Under Spoiler tag.

    Trump’s D.C. Hotel Tagged With $5 Million in Unpaid Worker Liens

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-05/trump-s-dc-hotel-tagged-with-5-million-in-unpaid-worker-liens?fbclid=IwAR2vlDWJnsKxQ8Xri1BD-Ohu6rpUhGEHsidASzAQA9JQLUKlx5K4Nl0Gcyk
    Donald Trump’s new Washington hotel, located just blocks from the White House, owes electricians, wood workers and a plumbing and heating business more than $5 million for unpaid labor, according to liens filed against the property with the District of Columbia.
    The 263-room hotel, located on the historic site of the city’s former main post office, opened in October following a $212 million renovation of the 1899 structure. The liens were filed in November and December, according to public records.
    World's cheapest scumsucker. That's how rich people stay rich, apparently.

    The Proud Boys Are Imploding

    The extremist gang’s leader is trying to bail, its members are in jail, and the FBI is on its tail.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-proud-boys-are-imploding_us_5bfc16dde4b0eb6d9311e26d?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063&utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=main_fb&fbclid=IwAR2V6IgjUTFzwM0B21IJGp_MYho0XKgphH4BqMwIV4RyTta23FZIFDcDSJY
    The Proud Boys, a punch-happy extremist gang whose members spend their time harassing people online and attacking them in real life, fell apart at the seams last week as the rest of the country gave thanks.
    Over the course of the Thanksgiving holiday, the Proud Boys were revealed as an extremist group in the eyes of the FBI; saw their leader, Vice Media co-founder Gavin McInnes, publicly bail on them; added two of their members to a growing list of defendants in a rioting case in New York City; and named a new leader in Jason Lee Van Dyke, their lawyer who himself is a serial harasser and racist criminal. (A representative for Vice Media reached out to HuffPost after publication to note that McInnes left the company 10 years ago.)
    Today’s Proud Boys are not the same as yesterday’s Proud Boys, who just last month bragged that they had the support of police after beating protesters in the streets of New York City and Portland, Oregon.
    These Proud Boys are being proudly thrown under the bus by their misogynistic and destructive founder. Immediately after that weekend of coastal violence in October, McInnes said publicly that he was arranging for the surrender of the members involved. Eight of them now face charges of assault and rioting in New York City.
    Then last Monday it was revealed that the FBI classified the Proud Boys as an extremist group. Suddenly it wasn’t just the media and watchdog groups calling them a violent hate group that counts white nationalists and skinheads among its ranks and publicly portrays racist and sexist sentiments. Now the government was involved, and for McInnes, the FBI designation was the straw that broke the Proud Boys’ back.
    Good! Couldn't happen to a more horrible set of people!

    A Documentary For Our Time: ‘The American Meme’ Asks the Cost of Instagram Fame

    http://blacknerdproblems.com/a-documentary-for-our-time-the-american-meme-asks-the-cost-of-instagram-fame/?fbclid=IwAR2n1l8eck9npbQ_HqTNXBcvIP6staJ1GZNQ9Z6Pv_ktGsyWPlR_oNi2lIc
    The main four characters are public figures of internet fame ranging from the A-list to D-levels. You might separate them and their spatter of other interviewees into 3 categories: those who understand the game of public manipulation and do it willingly; those who understand the game of public manipulation and do it with a sense of shame or maintenance, a machine they were caught in until it became too lucrative to leave; and those who play the game well but who you get the sense don’t much understand their negative impact.
    Hmmm... I have never wanted internet fame.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910

    I was never really sure what those obfuscation tactics were ever supposed to prove. It doesn't have any relevance to who it is that are doing the crimes, meaning it doesn't touch on the immigration topic at all. It is, at best, an attempt to muddy the waters on irrelevant points. Maybe in some cases, possibly, there's a chance it's more like a really bad case of sexual assault and not a rape. Wonderful. What's that have to do with the fact that an extremely oversized portion of the criminals involved are not from there and wouldn't be there with a better border policy?

    I really feel like you're arguing in bad faith if you already call my point an obfuscation tactic. That is not my intention. The argument, as it usually is presented, is that Sweden has an extremely high number of rapes, and that it's directly connected to the immigration topic. So how is it obfuscating or muddying the waters to point out why the numbers look the way they do?

    Other countries' numbers will look different because of the different definitions. I wasn't saying "oh, it's just sexual assault, so it doesn't count." I was saying that in other countries, they might not count it as rape or sexual assault at all, making their rape statistics look "better". The classic example is people raping their spouses, or rape victims who don't resist. Which might not be illegal depending on where you are. Or systematic abuse over the course of several years that looks like a single case of rape in the statistics. Or the whole "she was asking for it" nonsense that leads to obvious rapists going free. So it's relevant because it's really hard to compare. And that's why it's brought up, not because it's some cynical obfuscation tactic.

    And yes, men born outside the EU are overrepresented when it comes to people convicted of rape in Sweden. But there is a lot of criticism of what conclusions you can draw from that. I think the biggest problem in Sweden (and the world) here is that so few are convicted of rape. And that could also lead to skewed statistics, since it's based on convictions. So the conclusion when we're talking about an extremely oversized portion of criminals is still based on very few individuals compared to the number of crimes.

    One thing I remember from the statistics for... 2012-2017 I think, is that you could draw the conclusion that people from Tanzania are more likely to rape someone in Sweden (it was among the top 4 "high-risk" countries). But that was based on one single person from Tanzania that was convicted of rape. Since there are so few Tanzanians in Sweden, it still had an impact on the numbers.

    I'm not saying all this because I want to defend rapists from other countries or something. Or even because I want to defend immigration policies for that matter. I just think that tougher immigration policies simply won't have any effect when it comes to rape and sexual crime in general. Because rape happens everywhere, on all social levels, all over the world. And if 0.02% of the people in one group are rapists and 0.01% are rapists in another, I don't think you can draw any conclusions at all about the groups as a whole. Especially when the groups are of vastly different sizes.

    So I do think my original point was relevant.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2018

    A North Texas woman, Rosa Ortega, was sentenced to 8 years in prison for illegally voting.

    The woman is a green card holder who almost certainly will be deported after her prison sentence. She has four kids, US citizens, aged between 13 and 16.

    She could not find a permanent resident option on election forms so Ms. Ortega, who has a sixth grade education, checked the box that said citizen because she was a citizen of Mexico.

    Others people who have voted like this have received probation. It is assumed that the AG of Texas, Ken Paxton, wanted to make an example of her to feed the false Republican narrative of rampant voter fraud. Ms. Ortega voted for Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and had registered as a Republican.

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/election/article222302160.html

    This is an INSANE sentence for this kind of crime, and mirrors the 5 year sentence that an African-American woman got for voting while on probation mistakenly. It's beyond draconian. Frankly, I don't care that she is a Republican, it's ridiculous to think this would be more than a fine and 3 months MAX for a first time offense. 8 years?? That is 10% of an average person's life. But it is worth noting that nearly every case of actual fradulent votes being cast I've heard about since 2016 have been Trump supporters who stated their reasons for doing so were to cancel out the votes of the "illegals" they were told were voting.
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