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The Party of Spiders: No-reload SCS2 run

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  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey @semiticgod! I've only just caught up. Congratulations my friend!! Far out! Not only did you beat BG2 SoA and ToB on SCS/Ascension no-reload, but you did so using an unconventional party-setup (arcane warriors) and you made some interesting discoveries in the process (especially the Flasher stuns).
    The Sendai fight and the final battle were particularly enjoyable for me to read. To stay in control of such complex situations, where you were managing multiple characters that are up against multiple powerful foes, is superhard for me. Very impressive, so hats off to you! :)

    You wondered why Balthasar didn't join the final battle. The reason is your CHA. Charname needs an unmodified CHA-score of 16 or higher (in addition to meeting alignment, reputation, and dialogue path requirements) for Balthasar to decide to fight alongside the party.

    As to the exploits and the question of the EEs vs the original game, I'm with you on this. First of all many exploits are a grey area (why would UAI not allow the use of NPCs' personal items? unlike @wowo, I don't see this as an 'exploit' the EEs had to fix). Secondly the EEs make some things harder (fixing some 'exploits'), and others easier (new weapons and items, powerful NPCs for example), so I wouldn't say that the EEs make the game harder, just (slightly) different.
    You should just keep on doing whatever you like: do a Trilogy run, with BG1 included, start another unconventional type of playthrough, make your next challenge slightly harder (e.g. play on core rules, allow no testing since you've just beat the game, limit the number of traps or clones you can use), take a break, anything. Thanks at any rate for sharing this well-documented run!
    semiticgoddesskcwiselolienJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Serg_BlackStrider: I've checked the files in DLTCEP and all of the save bonus effects for the Ring of Earth Control have 100% probability, not 0%. It must be a version difference.
    kcwise
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 98
    Sorry, about the semi-necro, but I was just curious about the CC:On Hit trick...

    I've seen Saros mention using LMD-on-self to trigger it. Is that what you used as well, or did you use something else, e.g. just maneuvering cleverly to get "hit" (for no damage, presumably)? I've tried searching a bit in the thread, but couldn't find any mention of what you used.

    (The reason I ask is that I've tried this in my own setup with SCS, but it doesn't seem to work if you have full resistance to magic damage. I think it's probably related to the "don't interrupt casting when all damage resisted" tweak that TobEx has, but I'm not sure.)
    kcwisesemiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @AnonymousHero: I used Project Image to trigger the Chain Contingency. The condition for my CC was on "Helpless," not on "Hit," so it would trigger whenever I got disabled. Project Image counts as disabling the caster, and therefore will trigger an On Helpless Chain Contingency.
    kcwiselolien
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 759
    edited July 2015
    Quick Note: If you'd like to scout for ways to set off your Hit Contingencies in combat, activate Autopause: Hit in you game menu options then take note of all the things that the engine considers hits. That may give you some ideas.

    Best,

    A.


    Post edited by Alesia_BH on
    semiticgoddesskcwiselolien
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 98
    edited July 2015
    I was referring to this:

    I set up all of our Contingencies, and Sil's Chain Contingency, to trigger on hit, which I didn't even realize was an option for a contingency condition (you have to scroll up to see it, on the contingency screen). I thought it would trigger when the caster was hit by a weapon, indicating their Stoneskins and PFMW spells weren't keeping them safe. But apparently any hostile act that makes contact can trigger such a contingency.
    which you wrote on page 8. It seems to imply that you were using an on-hit trigger (at least for this encounter!).

    It's a great trick to use offensive CC's in a much more controlled manner, so I was curious if there are ways of triggering it that I just haven't throught of... :)

    EDIT: Great run, btw, though I must confess I haven't read all 8 pages of it :).
    semiticgoddesskcwise
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @AnonymousHero: I understand now. I was thinking of the Feeblemind contingencies I was using for Abazigal. The On Hit contingencies in the fight with Melissan were for defensive reasons, to activate our buffs in case we got caught off guard. So the triggering of those contingencies was accidental, not tactical. I assumed you were talking about the Abazigal contingencies because you were talking about intentionally triggering them.

    Larloch's Minor Drain would indeed trigger an on-hit contingency. It should do so even with immunity to magic damage, as other on-hit contingency types (like in Fire Shields or Sanchuudoku) respond even when no damage is done. In fact, I've even seen a Grease spell trigger Sanchuudoku, which suggests to me that any spell tagged as "hostile" also counts as a hit.
    kcwise
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 98

    Larloch's Minor Drain would indeed trigger an on-hit contingency. It should do so even with immunity to magic damage, as other on-hit contingency types (like in Fire Shields or Sanchuudoku) respond even when no damage is done. In fact, I've even seen a Grease spell trigger Sanchuudoku, which suggests to me that any spell tagged as "hostile" also counts as a hit.

    It doesn't seem to in my (lightly modded, TobEx), unfortunately. I think this is because of the "no damage => no spell interruption" thing.

    @Alesia_BH: Thanks, that's a good idea, though I wonder if it's actually coded in the same place in the engine. I guess I'll have to try experimenting a bit.
    kcwisesemiticgoddess
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 759
    edited July 2015


    @Alesia_BH: Thanks, that's a good idea, though I wonder if it's actually coded in the same place in the engine.

    Use the auto pause data as a source of hypotheses, not a test in and of itself. Once you've discovered an interesting candidate trigger, do a proper experiment to confirm that it will work as intended in combat.

    I've discovered a number of Hit triggers that way, including one of my favorites, Sunfire.

    Best,

    A.
    kcwise
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 759
    edited July 2015
    @semiticgod. I just re-read your retrospective post. It was excellent. I fully agree on nearly every point.

    If you don't mind, I'd like to provide a link to it over at Bioware. I'd like players in our community to have it available for reference.

    Once again, great work!

    Best,

    A.
    Post edited by Alesia_BH on
    semiticgoddesskcwise
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Alesia_BH: A link to Bioware is very flattering. Thank you. I'm glad people have taken an interest in this run. I've had more fun, learned more stuff, and did crazier things in this run than I have in any other.
    Alesia_BHkcwiselolien
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    @semiticgod What're the odds on an anti-spider run (butterfly? I don't know...)?
    loliensemiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @dockaboomski: A butterfly run... I would probably need to have some visual thing to accompany it. I know there's a mod to add wearable wings to BG2, but the wings are feathery rather than butterfly-like and the mod sets my laptop on fire.

    An old character of mine, Poppy, has butterfly wings in her portrait, and she's one of my favorites. I certainly could design a butterfly-themed kit, though otherwise I don't know how we'd make a butterfly run.

    If there's a spell effect that looks especially like a butterfly, or some graphics mod that adds some butterfly-related animation or avatar or whatever, I'm sure a butterfly run would be lovely.
    dockaboomskilolien
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    There are two implications for this, in no-reload runs. First, you need to either get immunities to the relevant disablers, or you need a reliable means of removing them. Spell Revisions lets you remove any disabler with Break Enchantment, but in vanilla BG2, your options are limited. Dispel Magic can remove all disablers, but it'll also remove your buffs, and not just for the disabled characters. Only Greater Restoration removes confusion and charm, and you'll be charmed and confused long before you get Greater Restoration. There is no cure at all for unconsciousness.

    Basically, what you are meaning, is that Spell Revision actually helps no reload run? Because to be honest I'm not fond of it all, but reading what you're saying here scares me a bit.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Arthas: I think Spell Revisions overall is actually slightly worse for no-reload runs for several reasons. First, saving throw penalties are much stronger in SR than in vanilla. Sphere of Chaos and Prismatic Spray are especially devastating. Second, the Dispelling Screen spell (replacing Spell Immunity: Abjuration) can be very dicey in some key instances: against demons who spam Remove Magic, even a mage can easily lose their buffs if they get caught (Dispelling Screen only blocks a single Remove Magic spell; the second one goes right through everything else). SCS mages who use triple Remove Magic Spell Sequencers can do the same thing.

    Other parts of SR are more friendly to no-reload gameplay. Petrification and Imprisonment are no longer instant-death effects; they're permanent disablers that the right spell can fix (Charname can get hit by either and survive as long as there's a party member who can cure it). Break Enchantment does a lot to help clerics and mages bail out endangered party members, and even works against petrification. SR also adds a lot of low-level summoning spells, which are great for baiting out enemy spells and absorbing attacks.

    I don't think the difference is particularly dramatic, though. These are tradeoffs; SR's impact on no-reload gameplay has both positive and negative effects, and it's not clear to me that either of them makes a truly decisive impact on the nature of the challenge.
    lolienDreadKhanArthas
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    Thank you.
    lolien
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