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Imoen Romance?

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  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    when he started comparing romance mods to hentei i think my brain had to reboot.
    EnialusMeliamneThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    when we are talking of having "bang" with people it has to be told that it can happen cause a "hunter" try to catch a prey, and the goal of the hunter is clearly the bang itself.
    and is such situations is appropriate to use the word prey.

    but it can also happen when 2 people fall in love, and then to talk of a prey is probably not correct.

    i have not played the mod, so i don't know which of the 2 cases is there, also the OP has not played enough the mod to tell it.

    to assume that charname is an hunter, only interested in banging imoen, so corrupt what she should represent in the game, without previous knowledge of how the relation between them is deal with by the mod, seems to me not too correct.

    nothing in the game makes me think that imoen is something like the virgin mary, i assume that if not with charname she will probably bang with some other people in the future, if she has not done it already.
    a person can remain pure also while having romance or sexual activity.
    DJKajuru
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    Chiren wrote: »
    Reffering to ZAXARES' commentary; let me explain that I never claimed "attraction and intimacy is wrong, unclean or impure", as You were kind to accused me, suggesting some sexual inhibition as well. I claim that only in reference to Imoen, whichwhich personality doesn't even match to romance. Otherwise, in BG there is a couple of other romancing thread available, to which I was not critical (maybe Jaheira's was somehow uncomfortable; ultimately she is much older, and was a friend of my step father... Yyyh!). Those original were acceptable and absolutely sufficient. My opposition focuses on general trend to presenting EVERY female character (especially my dear Imoen), as a potential "prey". I do not accuse anything to any of other mods, but such as this one, are close to a moral level of hentai porn transformations of famous cartoons... And as everything filthy and unmoral, it found a lot of recognition, as well as legion of defenders. I was crushed having learned that some "sacrilegist" dared to breach Imoen's untouchability, but Your (i mean all of you) applause for that, is even more devastating. It seems I am still alone among "enemies". So be it. My view remains unwavering, even if I am the only one who think that way.

    My remarks were based on your original post, where you made comments about keeping Imoen "pure and innocent". In the quoted portion above, you also insinuate that the mere fact that Imoen might have romantic or sexual inclinations of her own is "filthy and unmoral", that doing so means that we view Imoen as "prey" in some way. All in all, it suggests to me that you do view attraction and sexual intimacy through a certain negative lens. I will not go as far as to say you are wrong in your beliefs (there are, after all, people who belong to the asexual or aromantic spectrum in real life. Perhaps you are one of them. What's more, Imoen is a fictional character. None of us except her original writers will know the truth of her preferences), but I do think you are being unnecessarily upset over this matter.

    At the end of the day, all I can do is return once again to the first thing I said on this thread; you are free not to install this mod and pretend it doesn't exist.
    ThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    it really does not matter now as the poster has been banned.
    gorgonzola
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    Oh! I hadn't paid closer attention to their new profile picture. XD
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    It sure was a wild ride down Freudian Madonna lane while it lasted.
    ThacoBellBeetle
  • Zest001Zest001 Member Posts: 9
    They are related, same father different mother that's why
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    Zest001 wrote: »
    They are related, same father different mother that's why

    My PCs are always full elf.

    Imoen is a full human.

    So...
    ThacoBellmegamike15
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Zest001 wrote: »
    They are related, same father different mother that's why

    Yeah, there's no way a dwarf charname and Imoen share any actual genetics. The Bhaal taint is literally a divine essence, not actual genetic material.
    Zaxares
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    The BG games were rather vague on how exactly Bhaal created the Bhaalspawn, but it seems that the most likely scenario was that upon arrival on Faerun, Bhaal created several avatars that split up and went around possessing various males that in turn impregnated various females. (This is the only way he could have had enough time to create the hundreds, possibly thousands, of Bhaalspawn.) As such, Bhaal is not REALLY their genetic father; the true father is the male that Bhaal was possessing at the time. As ThacoBell says, what links the Bhaalspawn is more that they each posses a tiny portion of Bhaal's divinity as a result of him being "present" during the conception.
    ThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    Zest001 wrote: »
    They are related, same father different mother that's why

    and bhaal is a shape shifter. if anything most of the genes come from the mother.
    ThacoBell
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 1,090
    As far as the incest angle is concerned, only Bhaalspawn who were birthed by the same mother would be true siblings. Otherwise, they would, at best, be half-siblings. Assuming Bhaal took on a different form, or possessed a male of the appropriate species/race, they wouldn't even be that. They would simply have a common divine connection. More like unrelated tieflings than brothers and sisters.

    So, the only time it could be genetic incest is if CN is a pure human or a half-[insert compatible race here]. If CN is a pure-blood anything other than human, they are not (by definition) blood related to Imoen. Even if they were, however, it wouldn't necessarily prevent them from being attracted to each other unless they were raised as siblings, and thus subject to the Westermarck effect.

    This is the "reverse sexual imprinting" concept that normally results in people who were raised as siblings at an early age not being attracted to each other. This is important, as a number of siblings where were adopted to different families have accidentally reconnected as adults and been attracted to each other. Conversely, foster children who are not blood related, but brought together at a young age, aren't generally attracted to each other - even though it would be genetically fine.

    In this case, Imoen and CN were both raised in Candlekeep, but by different adoptive "fathers" - Gorion for CN and Winthrop for Imoen. They would likely not have considered each other siblings growing up, but rather childhood friends.

    Thus, I have no real objections to an Imoen/CN romance, and done properly, it could really be a "best friends fall in love" story - in BG1.

    In BG2, when CN and Imoen discover they share a divine heritage, they could also come to the realization that they are blood related (or mistakenly assume it). This would make a relationship after chapter 4 troublesome, though with proper writing, it could be pulled off acceptably. Regardless of the truth, I have no doubt that such a revelation would not only change the way they view each other, but also possibly how they feel about each other.
  • minsc4prezminsc4prez Member Posts: 105
    *banjo music intensifies
    Permidion_Starkmegamike15Isewein
  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 1,054
    edited August 2020
    It's fine for a player to not like (And even condemn!) the incest angle. They don't have to download the mod, and it's obviously something the author has to grapple with. The more tastefully you do it, the quieter the condemnation.

    There are films and books that explore this sort of relationship and use it as a tool of drama, suspense, comedy, or such. I would say in almost all cases they don't end up together, or tragedy ensues or is implied, and the cases that they do they are usually very far from it. It will always be, and *should* always be controversial.

    The Original version of the Imoen mod did not handle the writing well at all, so the complaints before were really justified. It's not until the present versions we have that it got better. For those who want to enjoy it, there's a fun layer of drama to explore now, and it's far more worthwhile. I don't like all of the writing still (As I said somewhere else, I'd cut the entire Aerie-Imoen thing), but it's objectively far better than in the past.

    As for the nature of the relationship, I would personally call it genetic incest. There's nothing in the game that says Bhaal did it X way, and so I would conclude how it happened by path of least details, which is the implied non-consent way. Even if it isn't, they are more or less adopted siblings, and that still has the taboo attached.
    megamike15Isewein
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Skitia "It's fine for a player to not like (And even condemn!) the incest angle. "

    I'd agree if there was any incest going on. But Imoen and Charname aren't genetically related at all.
    megamike15
  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 1,054
    edited August 2020
    That would depend if you see Bhaal as transmitting his genetics or such. Personally I would say yes. But there is an argument for saying no, which is why people's reactions to the mod widely vary.

    Even with that aside, they are at a minimum, adopted siblings, which would still fall under the same incest umbrella, albeit far softer than a lot of the other possibilities.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    Is there any truth in the rumour that this is love theme that plays when you romance Imoen?
    Isewein
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    Skitia wrote: »
    That would depend if you see Bhaal as transmitting his genetics or such. Personally I would say yes. But there is an argument for saying no, which is why people's reactions to the mod widely vary.

    Even with that aside, they are at a minimum, adopted siblings, which would still fall under the same incest umbrella, albeit far softer than a lot of the other possibilities.

    besides the taint most of the genes come from the mother. and they are at most half siblings they only share the same father.

    and the mod does not treat it like it's no big deal. imoen does not want to go through it in the last love talk and you got to talk her into it.
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 199
    I'm curious how you guys know so much about bhaalspawn genetics. Has Irenicus written a book about it? No doubt he researched this topic extensively.

    It's time for more.. experiments.. >:)
    Permidion_Starkmegamike15
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    borntodie wrote: »
    I'm curious how you guys know so much about bhaalspawn genetics. Has Irenicus written a book about it? No doubt he researched this topic extensively.

    It's time for more.. experiments.. >:)

    explain how one bhaalspawn is a freakin dragon.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Skitia "That would depend if you see Bhaal as transmitting his genetics or such. Personally I would say yes. But there is an argument for saying no, which is why people's reactions to the mod widely vary."

    If you can explain the genetics of how a full blooded dwarf, orc, drow, halfling, gnome, dragon, or CHINCHILLA apparently shares genetics with a human, I would absolutely love to hear that explanation. No joke, that would be a heck of a discussion. This is open to everyone.

    "Even with that aside, they are at a minimum, adopted siblings, which would still fall under the same incest umbrella, albeit far softer than a lot of the other possibilities."

    Wan't Imoen raised by Winthrop though? The game acts like there is only one "Gorion's Ward". I always thought they were presented more as childhood friends, rather than siblings.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    All deities are shapeshifters, really. Similar like in the Norse mythology Loki shifted into a female horse and birthed Sleipnir with Svaðilfari's seed. Bhaal, too, impersonated his partner's race to spread his taint. Just think of a god's DNA as helluva prone to mutation and adapts according to their will.

    Also, Imoen is the biological daughter of Winthrop. Bhaal clearly shapeshifted into a gorgeous human female and had a one night stand with a certain tavern owner. Making her the one and only Winthropspawn.
    Isewein
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    edited September 2020
    megamike15 wrote: »
    and the mod does not treat it like it's no big deal. imoen does not want to go through it in the last love talk and you got to talk her into it.

    That makes it sound so much worse. In my - admittedly rather limited - experience of romance it's only romantic if both parties are up for it. If someone doesn't want to go through with it and you are trying to talk them into it then romance is the wrong word for it.
    jastey
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    megamike15 wrote: »
    and the mod does not treat it like it's no big deal. imoen does not want to go through it in the last love talk and you got to talk her into it.

    That makes it sound so much worse. In my - admittedly rather limited - experience of romance it's only romantic if both parties are up for it. If someone doesn't want to go through with it and you are trying to talk them into it then romance is the wrong word for it.

    i have a bad way of explaining things. so may have made it sound worse then it actually is.
    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    megamike15 wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    and the mod does not treat it like it's no big deal. imoen does not want to go through it in the last love talk and you got to talk her into it.

    That makes it sound so much worse. In my - admittedly rather limited - experience of romance it's only romantic if both parties are up for it. If someone doesn't want to go through with it and you are trying to talk them into it then romance is the wrong word for it.

    i have a bad way of explaining things. so may have made it sound worse then it actually is.

    Fair enough. I haven't read the mod so I shouldn't judge. To be honest romances aren't really my thing and since I always imagine Imoen as my annoying little sister this is unlikely to be my cup of tea.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    All deities are shapeshifters, really. Similar like in the Norse mythology Loki shifted into a female horse and birthed Sleipnir with Svaðilfari's seed. Bhaal, too, impersonated his partner's race to spread his taint. Just think of a god's DNA as helluva prone to mutation and adapts according to their will.

    Even as a shapeshifter, Dwarven DNA (or dragon, etc.) is NOT Human DNA. There would be no genetic match.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    edited September 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Even as a shapeshifter, Dwarven DNA (or dragon, etc.) is NOT Human DNA. There would be no genetic match.

    Deities are, by definition, not bound by mortal concepts such as race or gender. So even if Bhaal's was a human mortal once. By merely willing it his avatar's body becomes any species he wishes for. This in itself is nothing new or limited to the Forgotten Realms either.

    In the end of the day, all that really changes is the 'shape' of the DNA. Bhaal's genetic material, albeit adapted to ensure compatibility with his partner's physiology, remains intact all the same. Resulting in all Bhaalspawn to be half-siblings no matter their races. The game itself tells us that much.
    Isewein
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 199
    edited September 2020
    It is a fantasy universe. Known laws of physics and other sciences don't work, how do you explain magic? How do you know that DNA even exists in there? Maybe dragons are entirely made out of unobtanium.
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Even as a shapeshifter, Dwarven DNA (or dragon, etc.) is NOT Human DNA. There would be no genetic match.

    Wellllll... In the case of human-dwarf crossbreeds, we DO have the Mul (from the Dark Sun setting), but Muls themselves are sterile hybrids (that at one point were always male, but I think this may have been retconned in 3rd Ed), not the kind of true-breeding half-race we're used to with other beings like half-elves, half-orcs and planetouched.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Kamigoroshi "Resulting in all Bhaalspawn to be half-siblings no matter their races. The game itself tells us that much."

    That's a colloquialism. They aren't genetically related. Unless Imoen and Sarevok happened to have the same mother or something. Its a divine/magical essence that can, I must note, be TAKEN AWAY without physically altering the person. So Bhaal's essence CANNOT be genetic or actually affect the physical makeup of his spawn. If it was an actual, physical/genetic part of them, taking it away would be deadly.
    megamike15Zaxares
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