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  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    America first has meant we withdraw from the world stage and leave space for other countries such as China to fill the void.

    Thank God we're changing administrations soon but the damage done has probably screwed us over completely forever.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    "There's no concentration camps, that's a liberal conspiracy."
    "Those aren't concentration camps, they are only holding children with no medical care or beds. Only a few have died."
    "Well Obama did it first, that means its okay now!"
    "Biden's president even though he hasn't been sworn in, right? Man, he should do something about those children in cages that he's responsible for!"

    I bet the next step is, "Concentration camps have practical uses and shouldn't be dismissed."
    smeagolheart
  • TaylanTaylan Member Posts: 76
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I bet the next step is, "Concentration camps have practical uses and shouldn't be dismissed."

    This just reminded me of the recent Guardian article titled "Child labor doesn't have to be exploitation..."

    They changed the title after a big shitstorm. You can see the original title in the permalink URL:

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/nov/06/child-labour-doesnt-have-to-be-exploitation-it-gave-me-life-skills
    ThacoBell
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "Well Obama did it first, that means its okay now!"

    That's basically the forum position, is it not? Does anyone else but me have anything negative to say about the child prisons that were built in the early 2010's until Trump came into office? I spent the better part of yesterday reading and discussing comments about it. Folks were clearly doing research with the express intent of finding a reason to defend it. It's a way of thinking I can only describe as poisonous. There should clearly be no excuse for facilities unable to meet basic needs, and worse, to lose kids within the system, but nobody wants to say this for fear of tarnishing the democrats image.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited November 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "Well Obama did it first, that means its okay now!"

    That's basically the forum position, is it not? Does anyone else but me have anything negative to say about the child prisons that were built in the early 2010's until Trump came into office? I spent the better part of yesterday reading and discussing comments about it. Folks were clearly doing research with the express intent of finding a reason to defend it. It's a way of thinking I can only describe as poisonous. There should clearly be no excuse for facilities unable to meet basic needs, and worse, to lose kids within the system, but nobody wants to say this for fear of tarnishing the democrats image.

    Here's mine. Plenty of people are being critical of it.

    Here you go:
    It seems to me like some just dont want to accept that there is a significant difference between a very bad policy that imprisoned unaccompanied minors that crossed the border, and a second policy that was a form of terrorism used to try to prevent anyone from coming across the border (... plus included everything that was bad about the first policy. Worse, technically - since conditions were considerably worse under Trump than Obama).

    I am able to recognize why the first was bad, and understand that the second was dramatically worse. It doesnt exonerate the first, but it is a false equivalence to treat them as the same.


    ThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2020
    So, the Biden Administration is FLOATING the idea of cancelling alot of student debt. The responses against it are falling into two camps: people who seem to believe because they had a tough time, others should suffer as well, and so-called right-wing "populists" who object to Biden rewarding people who were more likely to vote for him demographically. Gee, I wonder where all that concern was the last four years:


    This would actually be infinitely more "populist" than anything Trump ever did, from a sheer monetary standpoint. But it's not going to the "right" people. Same as it ever was. Farmers "deserve" it because they they have dirt on their hands at the end of the day and are the "salt of the earth". Alot of people are telling on themselves with the reaction to this.
    ThacoBellDinoDinsemiticgoddess
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    "Well Obama did it first, that means its okay now!"

    That's basically the forum position, is it not? Does anyone else but me have anything negative to say about the child prisons that were built in the early 2010's until Trump came into office? I spent the better part of yesterday reading and discussing comments about it. Folks were clearly doing research with the express intent of finding a reason to defend it. It's a way of thinking I can only describe as poisonous. There should clearly be no excuse for facilities unable to meet basic needs, and worse, to lose kids within the system, but nobody wants to say this for fear of tarnishing the democrats image.

    There are pages upon pages in this thread criticizing Trump putting children in cages. The only person who never does? You. You keep deflecting it to Obama, while never once accepting any criticism of the policy itself. Which begs the question, what is your point of bringing up Obama every time Trump's policy is mentioned?If Trump shouldn't be criticized, does that mean you bring up Obama in support of the policy? Since Obama "did it" Trump should get off scot free?
    DinoDinsmeagolheart
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2020
    DinoDin wrote: »
    If we're going to bring up the lack of self-identified Republicans among journalists, then I have to bring this link up again: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2009/07/09/section-4-scientists-politics-and-religion/

    Physicists, chemists and biologists self identify as 6% Republican, 55% Democrat and 32% independent. It's from 2009, but this kind of question doesn't get asked a lot. It should surprise no one that people whose job means they have to investigate facts do not align with modern Republican party.

    Journalists -- and scientists -- are under no obligation to break down evenly between two unequal parties.

    Conservatives act like they were frozen out of academia, journalism and the types of professions listed above as some sort of plot, rather than their own choices. The media, higher education, and science. The three things the conservative movement writ large has been railing against for well over a half century. It's like me wondering why I'm not a NASCAR driver.
    DinoDinThacoBellsemiticgoddesssmeagolheart
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,567
    edited November 2020
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    So, the Biden Administration is FLOATING the idea of cancelling alot of student debt. The responses against it are falling into two camps: people who seem to believe because they had a tough time, others should suffer as well, and so-called right-wing "populists" who object to Biden rewarding people who were more likely to vote for him demographically. Gee, I wonder where all that concern was the last four years:

    ...

    This would actually be infinitely more "populist" than anything Trump ever did, from a sheer monetary standpoint. But it's not going to the "right" people. Same as it ever was. Farmers "deserve" it because they they have dirt on their hands at the end of the day and are the "salt of the earth". Alot of people are telling on themselves with the reaction to this.

    Yeah, we can already see the gearing up for things like deficit concerns. My own opinion is that student loan forgiveness should be less of a priority than just straight up getting people COVID relief checks, or expanding existing welfare programs. But, on the other hand, those things would require passage in the Senate, and the idea about loans being floated may be do-able solely through the executive branch. Getting something is better than nothing.
    BallpointManThacoBellsmeagolheart
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2020
    DinoDin wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    So, the Biden Administration is FLOATING the idea of cancelling alot of student debt. The responses against it are falling into two camps: people who seem to believe because they had a tough time, others should suffer as well, and so-called right-wing "populists" who object to Biden rewarding people who were more likely to vote for him demographically. Gee, I wonder where all that concern was the last four years:

    ...

    This would actually be infinitely more "populist" than anything Trump ever did, from a sheer monetary standpoint. But it's not going to the "right" people. Same as it ever was. Farmers "deserve" it because they they have dirt on their hands at the end of the day and are the "salt of the earth". Alot of people are telling on themselves with the reaction to this.

    Yeah, we can already see the gearing up for things like deficit concerns. My own opinion is that student loan forgiveness should be less of a priority than just straight up getting people COVID relief checks, or expanding existing welfare programs. But, on the other hand, those things would require passage in the Senate, and the idea about loans being floated may be do-able solely through the executive branch. Getting something is better than nothing.

    Every one of those $250-$500 checks not getting sent out to pay the loans each month is getting injected straight back into the economy (I would guess upwards of 90% of the money). Boosting consumer spending given the current situation is FAR more important than a previous generation thinking they got a raw deal. The situation is the situation. I don't know if they will do it, but they should, just for the shot in the arm in a consumer-driven economy.
    DinoDinThacoBell
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    Looks like Trump is going to be drawing down the troop levels in both Iraq and Afghanistan real soon. Down to 2500 troops each, from what I can gather (which isnt a huge reduction. I think they're at like 3k and 4.5k respectively).

    On one hand - I'm pretty okay with this move in general. Less intervention abroad is mostly a good thing, and I think its long past time to get troops home from those places.

    On the other hand - It's frustrating and seems reckless for Trump to be making major decisions like this in the lame duck period of his presidency, with a new incoming administration. I'd like Biden to keep the troops pulled out, but I think it's just generally a worse situation if Trump draws them down and Biden immediately sends them back. I guess I'm saying i'd rather they never left if that ends up being the case.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    So, the Biden Administration is FLOATING the idea of cancelling alot of student debt. The responses against it are falling into two camps: people who seem to believe because they had a tough time, others should suffer as well, and so-called right-wing "populists" who object to Biden rewarding people who were more likely to vote for him demographically. Gee, I wonder where all that concern was the last four years:


    This would actually be infinitely more "populist" than anything Trump ever did, from a sheer monetary standpoint. But it's not going to the "right" people. Same as it ever was. Farmers "deserve" it because they they have dirt on their hands at the end of the day and are the "salt of the earth". Alot of people are telling on themselves with the reaction to this.

    My beef with this is:

    Throwing money at this problem will not fix it.

    The US government isn’t paying off individual debt holders, they are paying off the institutions that have created this mess in the first place.

    Forgiving student debt now, isn’t going to forgive the debt that the next crop of young students are going to rack up.

    Fix the problem with the post secondary education system first, then do debt forgiveness.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Looks like Trump is going to be drawing down the troop levels in both Iraq and Afghanistan real soon. Down to 2500 troops each, from what I can gather (which isnt a huge reduction. I think they're at like 3k and 4.5k respectively).

    On one hand - I'm pretty okay with this move in general. Less intervention abroad is mostly a good thing, and I think its long past time to get troops home from those places.

    On the other hand - It's frustrating and seems reckless for Trump to be making major decisions like this in the lame duck period of his presidency, with a new incoming administration. I'd like Biden to keep the troops pulled out, but I think it's just generally a worse situation if Trump draws them down and Biden immediately sends them back. I guess I'm saying i'd rather they never left if that ends up being the case.

    Trump’s position has ALWAYS been bring the troops home and he doesn’t care what vacuum it causes if and when he does so.

    I am not surprised he is doing this now again as it may also be a political ploy. His administration reduced the troop count overseas and Biden maybe forced to send more back (making him look hawkish) to protect assets and allies in the region(s).

    That said, Trump does not give a $&@“ about the actual military personnel. If they are overseas, he can’t use them for his own publicity stunts like issuing fake national emergencies so he can deploy them at the southern border. Him also pilfering the Pentagon infrastructure funds to pay for his vanity wall was a slap in the face to military families as that money was slated to fix up schools among other things.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The entire Republican Party has signed onto this shit:

    ThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    Just when you thought Qanon was the scariest conspiracy theory out there. Here's everybody's favorite has-been Libertarian with the latest from Cloud-Cuckoo-Land...

    https://larouchepac.com/file/how-theyre-stealing-election-hammer-and-scorecard
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2020
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Just when you thought Qanon was the scariest conspiracy theory out there. Here's everybody's favorite has-been Libertarian with the latest from Cloud-Cuckoo-Land...

    https://larouchepac.com/file/how-theyre-stealing-election-hammer-and-scorecard

    I thought he died a year ago. Then again, that wouldn't necessarily be a barrier for this crowd. They believe JFK Jr. is still alive and helping Trump behind the scenes. Qanon is indistinguishable from an issue of Weekly World News. I just hope they get around to figuring out who killed Biggie and Tupac.
    ThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Just when you thought Qanon was the scariest conspiracy theory out there. Here's everybody's favorite has-been Libertarian with the latest from Cloud-Cuckoo-Land...

    https://larouchepac.com/file/how-theyre-stealing-election-hammer-and-scorecard

    I thought he died a year ago. Then again, that wouldn't necessarily be a barrier for this crowd. They believe JFK Jr. is still alive and helping Trump behind the scenes. Qanon is indistinguishable from an issue of Weekly World News. I just hope they get around to figuring out who killed Biggie and Tupac.

    He died last year but apparently decided that his legacy would be his very own PAC to carry on the good fight...
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Just when you thought Qanon was the scariest conspiracy theory out there. Here's everybody's favorite has-been Libertarian with the latest from Cloud-Cuckoo-Land...

    https://larouchepac.com/file/how-theyre-stealing-election-hammer-and-scorecard

    The telling point in that statement about the allegations was: "If that's true, Mr Trump will have no problem in court overthrowing the kind of results we're seeing report." Following that logic, if a court case is thrown out at an early stage (as all the attempted cases have been so far), we might expect these campaigners to accept the allegations are untrue - but it seems much more probable they would just conclude the courts are part of the conspiracy (along with the Republican Secretary of State of course) ;).
    Balrog99
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    It's hard to take Q-anon bashing seriously. This is an online cult of powerless individuals with social media accounts. Because they have a false take on the world everyone wants to condemn them and shut them down. The majority of the public think the highest, most "credible" news organizations in the country have false takes on the world as well. Between the most powerful distributors of information in the land whose narratives are heard by every person and a subculture of the conspiracy internet that nobody but the extremely online or informed knows about, and all ire goes towards the latter. Tiresome and an outright refusal to reckon with the credibility crisis in news media that breeds and ferments conspiracy theories by design.

    In recent news, Macron has been rather critical of the self-evident ideological bias of Western media and now they are attacking him for it. I simply love how they put "bias" in quotation marks, as if it is such a ridiculous claim that nobody can take it seriously. Except, you know, most people.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    And I really like the fact that he said that they were not heirs to the Enlightenment because it is true and important to remember. Enlightenment values are increasingly lost in this age. The naked devotion to one political ideology at all times and at all costs is as antithetical to the supremacy of reason as any religion ever could be. The fact that they and the party at large wants to suppress knowledge and stifle discourse, rather than expand them, is even more telling.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Just when you thought Qanon was the scariest conspiracy theory out there. Here's everybody's favorite has-been Libertarian with the latest from Cloud-Cuckoo-Land...

    https://larouchepac.com/file/how-theyre-stealing-election-hammer-and-scorecard

    The telling point in that statement about the allegations was: "If that's true, Mr Trump will have no problem in court overthrowing the kind of results we're seeing report." Following that logic, if a court case is thrown out at an early stage (as all the attempted cases have been so far), we might expect these campaigners to accept the allegations are untrue - but it seems much more probable they would just conclude the courts are part of the conspiracy (along with the Republican Secretary of State of course) ;).

    "If it's true that Jefferey Epstein didn't kill himself, then Mr. Trump would have to be a serial pedophile."

    "If it is true the moon is made of bananas, then we'd have no difficulty making banana splits in space."
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2020
    It's hard to take Q-anon bashing seriously. This is an online cult of powerless individuals with social media accounts. Because they have a false take on the world everyone wants to condemn them and shut them down. The majority of the public think the highest, most "credible" news organizations in the country have false takes on the world as well. Between the most powerful distributors of information in the land whose narratives are heard by every person and a subculture of the conspiracy internet that nobody but the extremely online or informed knows about, and all ire goes towards the latter. Tiresome and an outright refusal to reckon with the credibility crisis in news media that breeds and ferments conspiracy theories by design.

    In recent news, Macron has been rather critical of the self-evident ideological bias of Western media and now they are attacking him for it. I simply love how they put "bias" in quotation marks, as if it is such a ridiculous claim that nobody can take it seriously. Except, you know, most people.

    Yeah, this definitely explains why millions of people think there is a worldwide cannibal pedophile cabal and that COVID-19 was created so Bill Gates could implant microchips in the population by way of a vaccine. As if "distrust in the news media" is just destined to lead to complete insanity. These are also the people MOST likely to be outright dismissing the existence of the virus. The 20% of people who are making it impossible for the rest of us to get a grip on a normal life again. As for me, I'll continue to not make excuses for lunatics.

    What they believe is no different than a belief in dragons or gnomes. And they've been hoodwinked by (in all likelihood) the founder of 8chan who is pulling their strings from a pig farm in Manila. You're also completely wrong about how widespread this is. In just the last year (hell, in the last few months), I've witnessed about half a dozen extended family members get consumed by it. Watch one aunt scold my other aunt for not attending a large family gathering because her granddaughter is currently in the middle of cancer treatment because, don't you know, the virus isn't what they say it is and there is nothing to worry about.

    This shit is breaking up families. I'm watching it happen. And it isn't the fault of the non-Q initiated relatives. Who are just sitting around asking me how their sisters and aunts went full-on looney tunes. And the only thing I can offer in way of suggestion is to ignore them for the moment if you want to continue having a relationship in the future. Because I've seen the back and forth texts when they attempt to reason with them.

    And it's completely futile. They aren't even interested in a "let's not talk about politics for the sake of the family" armistice anymore. Believe it or not, I have never really uttered a word about their support of Trump in front of them. Not even when some of them were wearing Trump jerseys in front of my dying grandmother who they damn well KNEW hated him. The liberal wing of my mom's side of the family has always kept out mouth shut about it for the sake of "go along to get along". And that doesn't seem to be working anymore. Sometime in May or June, not attending large events to protect vulnerable family members became a personal affront to them. Scratch that, it became a personal affront to their BELIEFS.
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    semiticgoddessThacoBellBalrog99
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659


    The next logical step in voter suppression, I suppose.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850


    The next logical step in voter suppression, I suppose.

    Literally, sitting Senators are telling him to invalidate ALL mail-in ballots in areas where there have been an above average number of ones that need to have signatures matched. Not just the ones that need to be checked. But ALL of them. Because reasons.
    smeagolheart
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    It's hard to take Q-anon bashing seriously. This is an online cult of powerless individuals with social media accounts.
    QAnon is not just a group of powerless individuals. It's a massive and growing social movement, and the FBI identified QAnon as a terrorism threat in May 2019. Two separate women QAnon supporters kidnapped children who had been removed from their custody, one man committed murder out of his belief that his victim was a member of the conspiracy (though the victim was believed to belong to a different criminal organization), and one woman plotted to assassinate Joe Biden inspired by her exposure to QAnon.

    Nor is it limited to random actors; we've already seen QAnon supporters run for office. Two of them at least have won election to the House of Representatives, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert, putting QAnon in the halls of Congress.

    It's not just a silly idea. It's already directly resulted in several crimes and has put people in office at the federal level of our government. It is having a real-world impact, and the impact so far has been dark.
    ThacoBellGrond0
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    At least with stuff like flat earth theory or the idea that the moon landing was faked, it didn't have a specific bad guy that needed to urgently be taken down, or a policy that needed to be fought. But when it's antivaxxers or COVID deniers, we're working with an ideology that acts against people's physical health, and when it's QAnon, we've got an ideology that says that the government needs to be outright destroyed and the pedophiles eliminated.

    The QAnon conspiracy theory claimed that Trump was there to get rid of the pedophiles in the government. What happens when Trump leaves office and nothing happens? Does it mean Q was wrong, or does it mean someone else needs to take down the U.S. government?

    I don't know where QAnon is going after this. It could dissipate with Trump or it could just keep mutating and mutating like it always has.
    ThacoBelljjstraka34
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited November 2020
    semiticgod wrote: »
    At least with stuff like flat earth theory or the idea that the moon landing was faked, it didn't have a specific bad guy that needed to urgently be taken down, or a policy that needed to be fought. But when it's antivaxxers or COVID deniers, we're working with an ideology that acts against people's physical health, and when it's QAnon, we've got an ideology that says that the government needs to be outright destroyed and the pedophiles eliminated.

    The QAnon conspiracy theory claimed that Trump was there to get rid of the pedophiles in the government. What happens when Trump leaves office and nothing happens? Does it mean Q was wrong, or does it mean someone else needs to take down the U.S. government?

    I don't know where QAnon is going after this. It could dissipate with Trump or it could just keep mutating and mutating like it always has.

    The general plot twist when things like this happen, is that the conspiracy NOT coming to fruition is just further proof of the conspiracy itself. That if Trump couldn't stop it, it must be EVEN WORSE than they originally thought. This is no different than the preachers who have been predicting the end of the world ever couple of years since Reagan was in office. When the morning after the date comes and the world is still here, there is always an explanation, and they give a new date. Rarely if ever does it cause the initiated to rethink their trust.
    jonesr65Balrog99semiticgoddessThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited November 2020
    The amount of right wing misinformation in this country is too damn high. Q-anon, Fox News, Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, Ben Shapiro, Newsmax, Donald Trump, hundreds of lying Republican politicans, epoch times, washington times, prageru, breitbart, and many many more.

    We get it you hate people and you like lying to people. Freakin' propaganda. Too high, too much.
    ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    It's hard to take Q-anon bashing seriously. This is an online cult of powerless individuals with social media accounts. Because they have a false take on the world everyone wants to condemn them and shut them down. The majority of the public think the highest, most "credible" news organizations in the country have false takes on the world as well. Between the most powerful distributors of information in the land whose narratives are heard by every person and a subculture of the conspiracy internet that nobody but the extremely online or informed knows about, and all ire goes towards the latter. Tiresome and an outright refusal to reckon with the credibility crisis in news media that breeds and ferments conspiracy theories by design.

    It's serious because it's so widespread. Misinformation that even a year ago was mainly confined to specialist message boards is now circulating freely on mainstream social media. That makes a difference. Decades of research has shown conclusively that advertising works even on most of those convinced it has no effect on them. I see no reason to think that the same does not hold true for this sort of propaganda. In fact I've heard a couple of investigative programs covering anecdotal evidence like that mentioned by @jjstraka34 showing that it does hold true - and can infect people with a wide range of political views.
    semiticgoddessThacoBellDinoDin
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