@kamuizin I actually never had them both in my party at the same time. I'm just having a hard time believing that a Paladin of all things would kill a good drow just because he's a drow.
I believe @Edvin made a reference to her true behavior @LadyRhian, not the alignment she has. Viconia indeed don't sound so evil for me, all the smalltalk she spread on the begin of the romance about killing the ppl that helped her, all lies to cover the fact she had to humiliate herself by laying with many mens to get what she want.
She's a bitter woman indeed, but not much evil from my view, even her evil comments through the game are not much persuasive, so much that in ToB she change to chaotic good (if main char want). She use evil as a cloak to hide herself from the hard world that surrounds her, be it the underdark or the surface world, this become pretty obvious when she refused to sacrifice the human baby to Lolth on the presence of many Lolth's priests, on the event that started the fall of De'vir house.
@Tanthalas, Keldorn was a pool of problems on all my gameplays, his racial hate for Viconia was pretty obvious, and i knew on my plays that he eventually would attack viconia, just as Minsc kill Edwin and Chaotic Neutral Anomen kills Aerie also if both groups stay on the same party for too long.
My only disappointment was to discover later on a play that Edwin attack keldorn (and die of course) if he stay on the party for too, long. I never take serious his banters that he distrust a paladin to stay to near of one. The bitch attacked Keldorn inside spellhold, just to screw more the things...
@Kamulzin Ah, sorry, been a long day at work. But I do agree with you there. Maybe that's what alignment she *used* to be, but she's riding on the edge of NE and TN. It can certainly happen. You know, she does an evil deed once in a while, which keeps her on the NE side of the line, but she's sliding into TN because she just wants to be left alone to live her life.
The only reason Keldorn does not outright kill Viconia when they first meet is due to the PC influence and Keldorn's honor. As time goes on Viconia and Keldorn chat about their views, but even their views clash and with Viconia's constant arrogance and disdain towards him, his prejudice gets to the point that the PC is no longer able to keep them both in check. Keldorn being a "paladin" and servant of his faith (also don't forget he is an Inquisitor which are known to be either corrupt or being zealots) attacks her as his patience and tolerance reach their limits.
@bill_zagoudis Unless you're actually evil I don't see why Aerie and Keldorn would refuse to join you.
You're forgetting that people rarely wait to hear your story to cast a judgement on you. You're also using the examples of two drows who are 1) famous and 2) powerful.
It's already hard being a black person in certain parts of the world... but being a drow in the Sword Coast is easy? In medieval times, racism and biggotry were much, much stronger than they are now (even at the beginning at the century, stonings of Italian migrants occured in the south of France). And saying that you could play a drow character in the game's setting is like saying that you could be a travelling black man in France in 732.
If charname was a drow, he'd be lynched the minute he steps inside a Nashkel tavern. The owner would refuse giving him a room, or even talking to him, then he'd try to sleep in a nearby stable only to be waken up by an angry mob.
If charname was a drow, he'd be lynched the minute he steps inside a Nashkel tavern. The owner would refuse giving him a room, or even talking to him, then he'd try to sleep in a nearby stable only to be waken up by an angry mob.
1) CHARNAME dont travel alove. 2) If merchant can accept drow companion, they can accept drow CHARNAME. 3) Even Drows what live on surface long time wear cape ( they dont like direct sunlight on eyes ) 4) BG1 is set in times what are´t so bad for drows ( is it still bad, but not THAT bad ) 5) You can always say: " Drizzt Do'Urden, nice to meet you ! "
Ppl assume that Drizzt is a famous person like a bill gates, but you know we can kill drizzt on BG1 just by don't aknowledge his existance and because we saw a drow and attacked before for precaution.
Instead of force a drow race at any cost, isn't better to make a pool for the devs to partly renegotiate some points of the contract with Atari, so they could make the needed adaptations on the main plot to make it receptible for drows? The original content generally can't be modified, but i heard that this rule HAS EXCEPTIONS (just hope this to be truth).
1) two weird-looking hippies are not going to stop an angry mob from killing you. 2) merchants are a special travelling, money-driven kind of people, and even among them I believe it isn't common to find drow. 3) You can't just say that charname spends the whole game in a damn cape... buying drinks, fighting mercenaries, investigating the iron shortage while wearing a cape. He's not Batman. 4) It's still bad to the point that some people would kill on sight (Keldorn, Aerie if she wasn't a sissy). The setting loosely corresponds to our Renaissance, which is still a time of intolerance and violence. 5) Well, yeah... but then Drizzt might kill you : (
There have been a few discussions around adding the same races that iwd2 offered, and just glossing over the fact that a drow probably wouldn't need to be transformed by Adalon to fart around in Menzobarrenzan. I would like to add them, but we have some tight deadlines. What may happen (Read: May) is that sub-races will be added after release, although this is less than optimal because few people want to start a new character after investing 40+ hours.
I can promise you that if you add the Drow race and a few other races that, while interesting, certainly aren't OP and to me actually add to the flavor of the world, they don't detract. What I find fascinating about the Drow race is the concept of a very intelligent race that was part of the "core races" at some point in their history, being inherently evil. From what I understand there are now entire villages of "good" drow and there have been undiscovered clans of good Drow both above and beneath the surface.
You cannot deny the magnetism of that race, there was a subrace mod awhile back that did a fantastic job with handling the Aasamir (?), Tiefling, and various elven races, as well as Duerger and Deep Gnomes. All subtarian races like that should be playable, imo. The Aasmar(mir? lol, sorry...) and Tiefling races actually go very well with the BG storyline, especially A-one, lol, that's what I'll call it.
Drow is interesting as I don't think Drizzt should have exclusive rights to being the only awesome and good Drow. Nor should he have exclusive rights on being the only badass swordsman. To me it's more about your character and his dialogue, the storyline he follows, etc.
Also, Half-Drow was one of the most interesting options of NWN 2. Definitely bring that in, if you can. I'd love to see some added dialogue about that (as well as more involving half-orcs, and some involving Tieflings if they get added). I may invest heavily into my character that has had years to be developed and dozens of transitional forms, but the option to play half-drow or a drow is very enticing indeed.
I didn't notice this before "few people want to start a new character after investing 40+ hours." I'd love to know if that really is the case WITHOUT THE USE OF POLLS!
I start new games over and over and over again for the very reason that I want to be playing a new race or class. How unusual is that?
Not very, I have had hudreds of savegames I have not finished because I suddenly want to try something out, and then forget I had another game on the go.
I've always liked the option of playing Drow, but hated the later rules that start them at lower level - feels punitive. I'd be more for a 20% XP penalty or something like that - slows them down early, but less of a gimp later in the game. Seems more fair than a -2 Level Adjustment because the little powers you get early become less and less significant as the game progresses.
Aside from the magic resistance. That is why you get some minuses to abilities.
I didn't notice this before "few people want to start a new character after investing 40+ hours." I'd love to know if that really is the case WITHOUT THE USE OF POLLS!
I start new games over and over and over again for the very reason that I want to be playing a new race or class. How unusual is that?
As someone that played this game more than 150x (BG II at least, BG start to ToB end i did probally something around 50 or 60 runs) i have to agree with @Moomintroll and disagree with @PhillipDaigle.
Unless he's focusing the casual players that gonna do 1 or 2 plays at maximum, the true fans, the 3.000 persons that pre-ordered the game for example, those gonna surelly make tons of runs with BG EE and we all will apreciate a lot any new race or sub-race added, with the exception of drow race on the main history, cos in reason of the plot line, a LOT of uncoherence will happen if they're added (but i have no problem with them in the Black pits alternative adventure).
I've always liked the option of playing Drow, but hated the later rules that start them at lower level - feels punitive. I'd be more for a 20% XP penalty or something like that - slows them down early, but less of a gimp later in the game. Seems more fair than a -2 Level Adjustment because the little powers you get early become less and less significant as the game progresses.
Aside from the magic resistance. That is why you get some minuses to abilities.
The 20% penalty would be a gimp too. What would make sense is a -2 level penalty at the start that doesn't affect XP gained later on.
The reason you have a level adjustment in 3.x is that a level 1 drow is as powerful as a level 3 human. The part where this system falls apart is when the system is still treating a level 13 drow as being as powerful as a level 15 human--since power is gained exponentially, the level adjustment is more of a penalty than the race is a bonus. However, if it didn't affect new XP, you'd start at level 1 being as powerful as your level 3 party, but by the time you got into higher levels, you'd really only be behind by about 3000 XP--which more closely reflects the gap in power.
How about no multiclassing allowed for drow? Only pure class. Not a great penalty, but narrows the usefulness of the race.
Not good idea. Nearly all drows have some magic powers even if they are fighters or thieves. Theirs favorite profession is Mage/something.
BTW: Even Drizzt himself have multiclass.
I disagree. While every drow is familiar with magic, drow society seems to be a strict caste system where you either a fighter, a mage or a cleric. Yes, in 3.5 they made drizzt into a barbarian/fighter/ranger and possibly even a level in mage because he got 6 months of magical schooling. But in 2nd edition he was just a ranger.
There have been a few discussions around adding the same races that iwd2 offered, and just glossing over the fact that a drow probably wouldn't need to be transformed by Adalon to fart around in Menzobarrenzan. I would like to add them, but we have some tight deadlines. What may happen (Read: May) is that sub-races will be added after release, although this is less than optimal because few people want to start a new character after investing 40+ hours.
I can promise you that if you add the Drow race and a few other races that, while interesting, certainly aren't OP and to me actually add to the flavor of the world, they don't detract. What I find fascinating about the Drow race is the concept of a very intelligent race that was part of the "core races" at some point in their history, being inherently evil. From what I understand there are now entire villages of "good" drow and there have been undiscovered clans of good Drow both above and beneath the surface.
You cannot deny the magnetism of that race, there was a subrace mod awhile back that did a fantastic job with handling the Aasamir (?), Tiefling, and various elven races, as well as Duerger and Deep Gnomes. All subtarian races like that should be playable, imo. The Aasmar(mir? lol, sorry...) and Tiefling races actually go very well with the BG storyline, especially A-one, lol, that's what I'll call it.
Drow is interesting as I don't think Drizzt should have exclusive rights to being the only awesome and good Drow. Nor should he have exclusive rights on being the only badass swordsman. To me it's more about your character and his dialogue, the storyline he follows, etc.
Also, Half-Drow was one of the most interesting options of NWN 2. Definitely bring that in, if you can. I'd love to see some added dialogue about that (as well as more involving half-orcs, and some involving Tieflings if they get added). I may invest heavily into my character that has had years to be developed and dozens of transitional forms, but the option to play half-drow or a drow is very enticing indeed.
The problem with drow or thiefling races been "hunted" can be solved giving them a -8 to its initial reputation, all faerum will hate you , but if drizzt can gain reputation makking good you can too.
@Arctic The Iron Crisis was in 1368 DR, in that years was situation for drows better. Drizzt and followers of Eilistraee ( hundreds mayby thousands good drows ) was improve Drows reputation on surface. Peoples still do´t like drows, but they also do´t hunt them or kill them when they see them. Now is it similar situation like half-orc ( not very popular in towns ), live and let live.
-8 is little to much because then guards instant kill you on start in candlekeep -2 is much more reasonable ( Viconia is also drow and she also have -2 )
Their drawbacks don't look very substantial compared to their down sides. Strength can very easily be modified and constitution isn't really a drawback for non warrior classes. A fighter/mage or thief/mage drow would be very OP...
The only thing making them OP in general is the magic resistance because in the end Charisma outside of Paladins and Clerics for Turning Undead (not even sure if the bonus is included in E2) and Intelligence outside of spell learning failure are pretty much useless stats.
In an old 2nd Ed. PnP supplement, drow look like this:
+2 Dex +1 Int -1 Con -2 Cha
Some innate spell abilities (know alignment, clairvoyance, dispel magic, others).
50% Magic Resistance +2% per level (max 80%) +2 saves vs. spells
20% XP PENALTY
That's right people. That's how drow MR is balanced in the normal PnP game. Natural drow abilities are potent enough that drow learn and advance only 4/5ths as fast as normal characters.
Comments
I actually never had them both in my party at the same time. I'm just having a hard time believing that a Paladin of all things would kill a good drow just because he's a drow.
She's a bitter woman indeed, but not much evil from my view, even her evil comments through the game are not much persuasive, so much that in ToB she change to chaotic good (if main char want). She use evil as a cloak to hide herself from the hard world that surrounds her, be it the underdark or the surface world, this become pretty obvious when she refused to sacrifice the human baby to Lolth on the presence of many Lolth's priests, on the event that started the fall of De'vir house.
@Tanthalas, Keldorn was a pool of problems on all my gameplays, his racial hate for Viconia was pretty obvious, and i knew on my plays that he eventually would attack viconia, just as Minsc kill Edwin and Chaotic Neutral Anomen kills Aerie also if both groups stay on the same party for too long.
My only disappointment was to discover later on a play that Edwin attack keldorn (and die of course) if he stay on the party for too, long. I never take serious his banters that he distrust a paladin to stay to near of one. The bitch attacked Keldorn inside spellhold, just to screw more the things...
It's already hard being a black person in certain parts of the world... but being a drow in the Sword Coast is easy?
In medieval times, racism and biggotry were much, much stronger than they are now (even at the beginning at the century, stonings of Italian migrants occured in the south of France). And saying that you could play a drow character in the game's setting is like saying that you could be a travelling black man in France in 732.
If charname was a drow, he'd be lynched the minute he steps inside a Nashkel tavern. The owner would refuse giving him a room, or even talking to him, then he'd try to sleep in a nearby stable only to be waken up by an angry mob.
2) If merchant can accept drow companion, they can accept drow CHARNAME.
3) Even Drows what live on surface long time wear cape ( they dont like direct sunlight on eyes )
4) BG1 is set in times what are´t so bad for drows ( is it still bad, but not THAT bad )
5) You can always say: " Drizzt Do'Urden, nice to meet you ! "
Instead of force a drow race at any cost, isn't better to make a pool for the devs to partly renegotiate some points of the contract with Atari, so they could make the needed adaptations on the main plot to make it receptible for drows? The original content generally can't be modified, but i heard that this rule HAS EXCEPTIONS (just hope this to be truth).
1) two weird-looking hippies are not going to stop an angry mob from killing you.
2) merchants are a special travelling, money-driven kind of people, and even among them I believe it isn't common to find drow.
3) You can't just say that charname spends the whole game in a damn cape... buying drinks, fighting mercenaries, investigating the iron shortage while wearing a cape. He's not Batman.
4) It's still bad to the point that some people would kill on sight (Keldorn, Aerie if she wasn't a sissy). The setting loosely corresponds to our Renaissance, which is still a time of intolerance and violence.
5) Well, yeah... but then Drizzt might kill you : (
You cannot deny the magnetism of that race, there was a subrace mod awhile back that did a fantastic job with handling the Aasamir (?), Tiefling, and various elven races, as well as Duerger and Deep Gnomes. All subtarian races like that should be playable, imo. The Aasmar(mir? lol, sorry...) and Tiefling races actually go very well with the BG storyline, especially A-one, lol, that's what I'll call it.
Drow is interesting as I don't think Drizzt should have exclusive rights to being the only awesome and good Drow. Nor should he have exclusive rights on being the only badass swordsman. To me it's more about your character and his dialogue, the storyline he follows, etc.
Also, Half-Drow was one of the most interesting options of NWN 2. Definitely bring that in, if you can. I'd love to see some added dialogue about that (as well as more involving half-orcs, and some involving Tieflings if they get added). I may invest heavily into my character that has had years to be developed and dozens of transitional forms, but the option to play half-drow or a drow is very enticing indeed.
"My auntie says I'm not allowed to run, on account of my Aasimar!"
..but Drows would be soooooo cool, specially driders!!!
I start new games over and over and over again for the very reason that I want to be playing a new race or class. How unusual is that?
Aside from the magic resistance. That is why you get some minuses to abilities.
Unless he's focusing the casual players that gonna do 1 or 2 plays at maximum, the true fans, the 3.000 persons that pre-ordered the game for example, those gonna surelly make tons of runs with BG EE and we all will apreciate a lot any new race or sub-race added, with the exception of drow race on the main history, cos in reason of the plot line, a LOT of uncoherence will happen if they're added (but i have no problem with them in the Black pits alternative adventure).
The reason you have a level adjustment in 3.x is that a level 1 drow is as powerful as a level 3 human. The part where this system falls apart is when the system is still treating a level 13 drow as being as powerful as a level 15 human--since power is gained exponentially, the level adjustment is more of a penalty than the race is a bonus. However, if it didn't affect new XP, you'd start at level 1 being as powerful as your level 3 party, but by the time you got into higher levels, you'd really only be behind by about 3000 XP--which more closely reflects the gap in power.
Nearly all drows have some magic powers even if they are fighters or thieves.
Theirs favorite profession is Mage/something.
BTW: Even Drizzt himself have multiclass.
You can't argument with that.
The Iron Crisis was in 1368 DR, in that years was situation for drows better. Drizzt and followers of Eilistraee ( hundreds mayby thousands good drows ) was improve Drows reputation on surface. Peoples still do´t like drows, but they also do´t hunt them or kill them when they see them. Now is it similar situation like half-orc ( not very popular in towns ), live and let live.
-8 is little to much because then guards instant kill you on start in candlekeep
-2 is much more reasonable ( Viconia is also drow and she also have -2 )
+2 Dex
+1 Int
-1 Con
-2 Cha
Some innate spell abilities (know alignment, clairvoyance, dispel magic, others).
50% Magic Resistance +2% per level (max 80%)
+2 saves vs. spells
20% XP PENALTY
That's right people. That's how drow MR is balanced in the normal PnP game. Natural drow abilities are potent enough that drow learn and advance only 4/5ths as fast as normal characters.