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A little disappointed

So I finally beat BG trilogy yesterday and I wonder was I thinking only person a little disappointed with the way some stuff was handled? So the biggest disappointment was Viconia's epilogue if you choose to not become a god and you romanced her.

First I need to know, is Drzzt also huntrd by Lolth handmaidens? If not, why not? I remember reading a little about the character, and basically someone hr befriended helped him turn away from the Spider queen. Yet Vi is hunted until the very end, in which she dies and protag just disappears. I mean seriously, that really isn't a fulfilling ending to a romance that required you to be really understanding or have the patience of Buddha. Depending on what race PC is, I can the tragic irony in PC outliving the lover that naturally would outlive him. But still, after everything was said and done I felt that mpty with how it ended. But that's not the biggest let down,the biggest let down were in the npc themselves.

For example, I put Jaheira and Viconia on the same team because I knew that they would always come to conflict with each other. But, what I also hoped to see were how the characters would react to dome characters change and growth. When Vi started to change and become more aware of her emotions instead of sealing them up, I expected Jaheira to eventually make some type of comment or remark even if it was mocking Vi about her change. Nothing, that's what we get. Not even some ttype of "we fought along side each other for some months-years now and you've gained some batylfied respect from me" type of deal. I mean I remember what year the game was originally released, but I would hope the EE actually would build on this.

With that said, I do feel that the delivery of the story was damn near perfect, despite how some people preferred 1 or 2.

Baldur Gate 1 was this open world, that you god tossed into to, despite how the world felt empty, which it should if you ask me. Bandits were attacking the travels, and the iron shortage was hurting the economy from my perspective. You wouldn't see to many people in all those areas for that type of reason. Charname had to grow and learn to stand on his/her own two feet, he/she no longer had Gorion sheltering him/her or Imeon, so he/she needed to explore the world to learn how it works before anything else.

Baldur Gate 2- the world is more closed off, but much more focus driven now. Charname oa no longer a little welp, but an adult with his/her on thoughts and ideas with real world experience to back up his/her actions. The choices made now has a stronger reflection of the character Charname is then any in BG1.

Throne of Bhaal- a linear story, which it had to be. The world was being torn apart so charname doesn't really have the time to go exploring that empty forest on the otherside of the map close to the borders, you are literally racing against time itself. Everything charname ever done up to now should reflect on the type of man/woman charname grew to be, the type of people charname attracted to his/her side. This is end game and its all about Charname.

If the npc were a little more then just ragdolls half the time I would call BG perfect. Literally, is Jan the only npc who has a comment for majority of the situation? I played with him for the first time and he just had comment after comment, and the one time I expected him to have a crazy story... The one time I needed him to speak... He said nothing! Jan, say something! Tell this idiot pirate King one of your stupid stories so we can get into spellhold. I mean shoot, boo opens his mouth even against yoshimo's wishes and we are there in a matter of seconds..

Jan is literally the one who seemed the most alive, and that is because he made his presence more known throughout the game. Hexxat, and Vi I would expect to be mostly silent since they don't want attention drawn to themselves, but Minsc and Nalia I would expect t to have just as many comments as Jan, maybe more in Minsc.

GrumDJKajuruSmilingSwordJuliusBorisov

Comments

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,183
    My memory of the Drizzt saga is fuzzy, but from what I remember, Drizzt was hunted by drow in the earlier years of his escape, but he caused so much trouble that it wasn't worth it. Viconia, by comparison, is an female ex-priestess of Lolth (and therefore of a higher station in society) so her betrayal is a more severe thing, especially since she directly caused her House to fall to ruin.

    Viconia only opens up more towards you, the player. To everyone else, she's her usual unfriendly self. Real-life people can be like this too- you can't expect someone like Jaheira, who has no personal relations with Viconia, to suddenly pick up on the fact that she is occasionally showing more emotion to someone else.

    Jan says a lot when he comments - that doesn't mean he comments the most. If you want my two-cents, his long-winded nonsense is just too much trouble to read and I usually skip it in the rare instances where I use him. Other NPCs comment plenty, it's just that they do it at different times, so every time you use a different party you'll get a comment where you won't expect it. Nowadays, RPGs like Dragon Age literally have all your companions comment at the exact same moment, so the difference can be jarring.

    DJKajuru
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866


    Viconia only opens up more towards you, the player. To everyone else, she's her usual unfriendly self. Real-life people can be like this too- you can't expect someone like Jaheira, who has no personal relations with Viconia, to suddenly pick up on the fact that she is occasionally showing more emotion to someone else.

    This would be more understandable if it wasn't for the fact her second most emotional dialogue wasn't to the PC on private, be in front of everyone when she had to face the past ghosts of her brother. She showed emotions to everyone that the world seem to believe Drow doesn't possess. Also, you don't have to like someone or even know them on a personal level to show a person some respect. If that was the case then o would have no respect for men/women of history who fought and died for other people. You can actually not like someone bit still respect them. Even in one of Viconia's own dialogue, she talked about respecting trees because the stood strong, yet she hates the surface world. The emotional outburst I don't expect Jaheira to respect her for, I expected her to comment about, whether it was surprisingly or even mockingly. The way those two go at it, its one those moments you'd expect her to make some kind of remark to.

    Jan says a lot when he comments - that doesn't mean he comments the most. If you want my two-cents, his long-winded nonsense is just too much trouble to read and I usually skip it in the rare instances where I use him. Other NPCs comment plenty, it's just that they do it at different times, so every time you use a different party you'll get a comment where you won't expect it. Nowadays, RPGs like Dragon Age literally have all your companions comment at the exact same moment, so the difference can be jarring.

    Comment at different times? Please clarify what you mean by this so I am sure that I'm actually interpreting what you mean. I'm not speaking about the amount he speaks, but actually at the frequency he does it. BG is no different from Dragon age on the account of how the characters comment since they are all event triggered dialogue, oh and I'm actually talking about the npc and there response to the world and events which your currently in. Jan has had the most event triggered dialogue from what I saw. Granted I stopped using him once I reaches TOB.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595

    My memory of the Drizzt saga is fuzzy, but from what I remember, Drizzt was hunted by drow in the earlier years of his escape, but he caused so much trouble that it wasn't worth it. Viconia, by comparison, is an female ex-priestess of Lolth (and therefore of a higher station in society) so her betrayal is a more severe thing, especially since she directly caused her House to fall to ruin.

    This as well as the fact that Drizzt is secretly an unwitting Chosen of Lolth. This only comes into the light of day at the end of the Neverwinter trilogy, which is pretty recent. So Lolth kinda told her Handmaidens to stay away from her golden boy-wonder of chaos.

    SmilingSword
  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 477
    Yannir said:

    My memory of the Drizzt saga is fuzzy, but from what I remember, Drizzt was hunted by drow in the earlier years of his escape, but he caused so much trouble that it wasn't worth it. Viconia, by comparison, is an female ex-priestess of Lolth (and therefore of a higher station in society) so her betrayal is a more severe thing, especially since she directly caused her House to fall to ruin.

    This as well as the fact that Drizzt is secretly an unwitting Chosen of Lolth. This only comes into the light of day at the end of the Neverwinter trilogy, which is pretty recent. So Lolth kinda told her Handmaidens to stay away from her golden boy-wonder of chaos.
    That's a fairly good reason why Lolth sent a few yochlol after Viconia but not after Drizzt.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866

    Yannir said:

    My memory of the Drizzt saga is fuzzy, but from what I remember, Drizzt was hunted by drow in the earlier years of his escape, but he caused so much trouble that it wasn't worth it. Viconia, by comparison, is an female ex-priestess of Lolth (and therefore of a higher station in society) so her betrayal is a more severe thing, especially since she directly caused her House to fall to ruin.

    This as well as the fact that Drizzt is secretly an unwitting Chosen of Lolth. This only comes into the light of day at the end of the Neverwinter trilogy, which is pretty recent. So Lolth kinda told her Handmaidens to stay away from her golden boy-wonder of chaos.
    That's a fairly good reason why Lolth sent a few yochlol after Viconia but not after Drizzt.
    What, and this is why I love the Spider queen! Well, semi love her, I'm still sour about vi!

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    I don't see a reason Jaheira would open up and comment on Viconia's change. I believe that the druid would rather show her acceptance through actions, rather than dramatical dialogues. Same for Viconia , actually, she loves Charname, but she stills believe that one has to be strong and avoid being vulnerable in front of others.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    DJKajuru said:

    I don't see a reason Jaheira would open up and comment on Viconia's change. I believe that the druid would rather show her acceptance through actions, rather than dramatical dialogues. Same for Viconia , actually, she loves Charname, but she stills believe that one has to be strong and avoid being vulnerable in front of others.

    She doesn't even show it through action either, I would've been perfectly fine with that. I was trying.to avoid this statement, its like with wynne and morigan, while they don't go at each others throat. Wynne was not originally a large fan of the relationship forming between the grey warden and the witch of the wilds. By as the relationship reached a climax, Wynne started showing acceptance of it. Evenakimg comments about how she would look at the PC and giggle behind his back.

    It was little things like that, that just made the companions and the world feel live. Now, Jaheira and Wynne are two different characters who don't necessarily play the same role and dao and BG are years apart when it come to productions so I don't have the same level of expectations. But there are some things here and there I was hoping, not expecting to see.

  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    Yannir said:

    My memory of the Drizzt saga is fuzzy, but from what I remember, Drizzt was hunted by drow in the earlier years of his escape, but he caused so much trouble that it wasn't worth it. Viconia, by comparison, is an female ex-priestess of Lolth (and therefore of a higher station in society) so her betrayal is a more severe thing, especially since she directly caused her House to fall to ruin.

    This as well as the fact that Drizzt is secretly an unwitting Chosen of Lolth. This only comes into the light of day at the end of the Neverwinter trilogy, which is pretty recent. So Lolth kinda told her Handmaidens to stay away from her golden boy-wonder of chaos.
    That's a fairly good reason why Lolth sent a few yochlol after Viconia but not after Drizzt.
    Actually it was revealed a little earlier in the Hunter's Blade Trilogy. When the rogue Drows helping the orcs have a discussion about Drizzt some of them suspect that Drizzt is actually in Loth's favor. Which is one of the reason why they decide to do their best to avoid him.

    DragonKingSmilingSword
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595

    Actually it was revealed a little earlier in the Hunter's Blade Trilogy. When the rogue Drows helping the orcs have a discussion about Drizzt some of them suspect that Drizzt is actually in Loth's favor. Which is one of the reason why they decide to do their best to avoid him.

    If we're talking about speculations of Lolth's Favor, we can go all the way back to Siege Of Darkness for that. There was a part where Yvonnel Baenre speculates of this right before she dies. Only in the Neverwinter Trilogy is this actually confirmed.

    DragonKingSmilingSword
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    I find it quite interesting that there seems to be no way for a Drow to escape lolth's grasp. What was to happen of a Drow escaped the underdark became a servant of Helm or even Mystra. If that Drow gained their favor, could Lolth still touch them? Do they still fallninto the spiders pit after death? Is the afterlife for some races just guaranteed simply because of their race, something they had no cant control at all?

  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 448

    I find it quite interesting that there seems to be no way for a Drow to escape lolth's grasp. What was to happen of a Drow escaped the underdark became a servant of Helm or even Mystra. If that Drow gained their favor, could Lolth still touch them? Do they still fallninto the spiders pit after death? Is the afterlife for some races just guaranteed simply because of their race, something they had no cant control at all?

    Many drows escaped Loth through her daughter Eilistraee: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee

    "Meanwhile, another High Magic ritual performed by Q'arlynd Melarn transformed those drow not tainted by Wendonai's blood and the followers of Eilistraee back into their original dark elven form, and Corellon Larethian thus permitted the souls of Eilistraee's faithful and the newly transformed dark elves to enter Arvandor.[31]"

    SmilingSword
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    My memory of the Drizzt saga is fuzzy, but from what I remember, Drizzt was hunted by drow in the earlier years of his escape, but he caused so much trouble that it wasn't worth it. Viconia, by comparison, is an female ex-priestess of Lolth (and therefore of a higher station in society) so her betrayal is a more severe thing, especially since she directly caused her House to fall to ruin.

    Viconia only opens up more towards you, the player. To everyone else, she's her usual unfriendly self. Real-life people can be like this too- you can't expect someone like Jaheira, who has no personal relations with Viconia, to suddenly pick up on the fact that she is occasionally showing more emotion to someone else.

    Jan says a lot when he comments - that doesn't mean he comments the most. If you want my two-cents, his long-winded nonsense is just too much trouble to read and I usually skip it in the rare instances where I use him. Other NPCs comment plenty, it's just that they do it at different times, so every time you use a different party you'll get a comment where you won't expect it. Nowadays, RPGs like Dragon Age literally have all your companions comment at the exact same moment, so the difference can be jarring.

    Drizzt is to blame for the fall of his house too. His act of saving the elven child is the reason why the Dourden family fell out of Loth's favor never to regain it.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866



    Drizzt is to blame for the fall of his house too. His act of saving the elven child is the reason why the Dourden family fell out of Loth's favor never to regain it.

    So basically he did a similar thing as Viconia, but he becomes her favored while Viconia doesn't even get to see her son grow. So I'm guessing that he didn't curae Lolth's name while he did it?

  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470



    Drizzt is to blame for the fall of his house too. His act of saving the elven child is the reason why the Dourden family fell out of Loth's favor never to regain it.

    So basically he did a similar thing as Viconia, but he becomes her favored while Viconia doesn't even get to see her son grow. So I'm guessing that he didn't curae Lolth's name while he did it?
    Drizzt hates Loths wih a passion, but he was so skilled that him staying alive created so much chaos that he must of gain Loths favor.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866



    Drizzt is to blame for the fall of his house too. His act of saving the elven child is the reason why the Dourden family fell out of Loth's favor never to regain it.

    So basically he did a similar thing as Viconia, but he becomes her favored while Viconia doesn't even get to see her son grow. So I'm guessing that he didn't curae Lolth's name while he did it?
    Drizzt hates Loths wih a passion, but he was so skilled that him staying alive created so much chaos that he must of gain Loths favor.
    This is where you're losing me... He hates her with a passion, but he was so skilled that trying to kill him created Chaos... Gaining lolth's favor...

    But doesn't thay contradicted itself? If attempting to kill him is what was creating the chaos, then why would you favor him ultimately having your hand maidens stop hunting him, or hunting him less? That lessens the chaos not creates more. Add ontop of that he's obvious gained quite a bit of respect on the surface world which would lessen it even more since now everyone isn't trying to kill the random Drow that is on the surface. I'm not seeing how any of this is working in lolth's favor, or hell even just feeding her insatiable appetite at all.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @DragonKing Let's focus more on what Viconia did for a moment. She was a priestess of Lolth before everything happened, and she betraying Lolth is a bit more personal than what Drizzt did. He never wanted anything to do with the Spider Queen in the first place.

    Besides, Drizzt is a lowly male, Lolth's boytoy on the surface. And Lolth doesn't particularly enjoy chaos among her drow, but the chaos that they cause everywhere. Sometimes that is among themselves, sometimes it's to the other races.

    As the last point, it really doesn't have to make sense. Two people can do the exact same thing, and get two totally different reactions from the same person. FR gods have a persona as well, they are not just mighty entities.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    @Yannir see I get all that easily,what is stinging me now is Drizzt, if the very thing that made her favor him now was the chaos hr created, why would she have the handmaidens avoid it. Hell if you even look at it from the cultural perspective, why favor the lowly male in the first place? You have how many female Drow who is more than willing to do the exact same thing.

    The only plus I can see from Drizzt being favored is the idea that some people now no longer believes he follows lolth, hell others see him as a hero. Now unless Lolth is tossing none Drow related problems at him left and right, while trying to cause a bigger storm to grow, I really don't see the point of him becoming favored. I might never see the point on that action, I may need to see the end game there.

    If you're the favored of Helm, he's not going to tell you to go on a mass killing spree of the weak and innocent. If your the favored of Mystra, she won't tell you to seal away your magic and then go speed the rest of your life inside an antimagic field. If you're the favored of Talos, he isn't going to tell you to spend the rest of your life in peace and harmony.

    Soi can't comprehend the logical choice of Drizzt. When he first came to the surface, yea I could see it then, no one knew him and all people would see is just another evil Drow. Even when he was making a name for himself, the struggle of gaining a lot of peoples trust. But, from.what I can tell now... That's just a, "yea that no longer makes any damn sense" choice.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    "The way that new-born spider broods tore each other apart to survive especially appealed to her. She promoted this by encouraging her worshipers to kill their rivals, thus ensuring that they were the strongest of the "brood"."
    In a way, Drizzt is constantly proving himself to be "the strongest of the brood", even if he hates the Spider Queen. That's exactly the kind of contradiction that Lolth loves.

    SmilingSword
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    Yannir said:


    This as well as the fact that Drizzt is secretly an unwitting Chosen of Lolth. This only comes into the light of day at the end of the Neverwinter trilogy, which is pretty recent. So Lolth kinda told her Handmaidens to stay away from her golden boy-wonder of chaos.

    This is literally what you said earlier, based on this alone... Why would she tell her hand maidens to stay away?
    Yannir said:

    "The way that new-born spider broods tore each other apart to survive especially appealed to her. She promoted this by encouraging her worshipers to kill their rivals, thus ensuring that they were the strongest of the "brood"."
    In a way, Drizzt is constantly proving himself to be "the strongest of the brood", even if he hates the Spider Queen. That's exactly the kind of contradiction that Lolth loves.

    ESPECIALLY if this is the case.

    Based on this very quite, avoiding and staying away from Drizzt would t be the biggest appeal to get or to the Drow. The biggest appeal would be overcoming his strength to prove they are the superior strength or getting torn apart trying too.

    The bigger appeal would be a handmaiden being able to manipulate his movements into doing something hr thinks is for the greater good, but instead he is messing things up. Not avoiding or staying away from him. Maybe it's just me, but nothing about Lolth screams, " protect my strongest child."

    You say he's the golden boy because of the cause he creates, but then you tell me Lolth told them to leave him be... Which ironically, creates none of the chaos that got him favored in the first place...

    Are you seeing what I'm seeing here? Unless Lolth is trying to use Drizzt to show the rest of the world that the Drow aren't all bad, which would make no sense at all, there is no method to this madness.

    And you can't just say, "he's a lowly male!" This lowly male is favored by their most powerful god so he can't be too much of just a lowly male since lolth favored him over the Elite females.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    edited July 2015
    @DragonKing You're taking things way too literal. The beautiful thing about literature is that it isn't literal. Lolth never actually told her handmaidens to stay away, she just indicated that Drizzt's head on a plate wouldn't bring them any extra favor from her. However, the same isn't true for other males. In the 3rd book of the Neverwinter Trilogy, Tiago Baenre goes after Drizzt to prove he's the better warrior. HE gains Lolth's blessing for this attempt. That kind of indicates that while females shouldn't attempt to go after Drizzt, for other males it's fine.

    She favors Drizzt to some extent but she doesn't intend to sacrifice her precious priestesses or handmaidens in order to test him out. She's the queen of chaos, but that doesn't mean she would constantly feel the need to manipulate things in order to create chaos or throw her priestesses into pointless slaughter. She already knows how capable he is when pushed. He DID repel an army of drow, and killed many of her most powerful servants during that campaign.

    One part of this is the matriarchality of the drow society. While Drizzt as a male has Lolth's favor, he is still lower in value than the lowest female, even if he could easily defeat them. The competition of the drow generally doesn't cross the gender barrier. Even amongst all the chaos, it's usually males that kill males, and females that kill females. For us here in the real world, the way drow society works may be hard for us to wrap our head around, with all the talk of equality and all that.

    Besides, it's very rare that Lolth actually communicates with her followers, or tells them what to do. Even Baenre priestesses, that are in high favor of Lolth, rarely know exactly what she wants.

    It's mostly the uncertainty of Lolth's reaction to Drizzt getting killed by drow hands, that holds the other drow at bay. Lolth's favor is fickle, and while it might bring great glory, it could also mean Lolth's disfavor, which is a death sentence. Or worse, being made into a drider. The reason she is called the Spider Queen isn't because she likes spiders, she IS like a spider. Casting webs of plans and manipulating events to her advantage. She doesn't enjoy mindless slaughter, throwing her handmaidens into harms way, but she does approve of killing as a way to advance in rank. That's why she approves of other males going after Drizzt, to advance in rank. For a female that would be pointless, it wouldn't advance them anywhere, since Drizzt is already a thousand ranks below them.

    This very same thing applies to Jarlaxle and Gromph Baenre as well, that's how they keep their station in society.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member Posts: 14,506
    Whether Lolth attacks Drizzt or lets him live, it could make sense given Lolth's priorities.

    (1) Lolth decides not to attack Drizzt. This could be because:
    -(A) She wants everybody to see an example of badass drow power, which Drizzt demonstrates to surfacers.
    -(B) She doesn't want Drizzt to murdalize her faithful, and rob her of valuable assets.
    -(C) She doesn't want Drizzt to murdalize her faithful, and make her evil drow look weak.
    (2) Lolth decides to attack Drizzt. This could be because:
    -(A) She doesn't like good drow and feels like they're an embarrassment in the eyes of others.
    -(B) She wants to kill off Drizzt for disobedience.
    -(C) She wants to emphasize Drizzt's badass drow power by giving him another epic fight to win.

    Not all of these are particularly plausible, but we can't rule all of them out.

    @DragonKing, you're never happy. :wink:

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    Ok, I was kinda arguing 2 points at the same time. Please try to make sense of all that... :smiley:

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    Yannir said:

    Ok, I was kinda arguing 2 points at the same time. Please try to make sense of all that... :smiley:

    That's all I'm trying to do, every one giving me information, and I'm simply trying to connect dots. Great litatur just doesn't live huge holes that just expect the reader to accept them. So I'm just looking for connections or at least a level of understanding that makes sense. With that said, the Drow culture really isn't that hard to understand. It's Social heirchy is alot closer to our own then we may realize.especially with the concept of how gender is treated... But isn't a discussion for here or one I'm in the mood to have.

    As I said before, there had to be a end game I just don't know about.



    @DragonKing, you're never happy. :wink:

    Happy, what is happy? Oh is that the feeling I get when I reach into the depths of pure chaos just to turn a hamster pink?

    semiticgod
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470



    Drizzt is to blame for the fall of his house too. His act of saving the elven child is the reason why the Dourden family fell out of Loth's favor never to regain it.

    So basically he did a similar thing as Viconia, but he becomes her favored while Viconia doesn't even get to see her son grow. So I'm guessing that he didn't curae Lolth's name while he did it?
    Drizzt hates Loths wih a passion, but he was so skilled that him staying alive created so much chaos that he must of gain Loths favor.
    This is where you're losing me... He hates her with a passion, but he was so skilled that trying to kill him created Chaos... Gaining lolth's favor...

    But doesn't thay contradicted itself? If attempting to kill him is what was creating the chaos, then why would you favor him ultimately having your hand maidens stop hunting him, or hunting him less? That lessens the chaos not creates more. Add ontop of that he's obvious gained quite a bit of respect on the surface world which would lessen it even more since now everyone isn't trying to kill the random Drow that is on the surface. I'm not seeing how any of this is working in lolth's favor, or hell even just feeding her insatiable appetite at all.

    Loth loves chaos. In fact in the Legacy books series the first one being the Legacy Drizzt sister leads a group to kill drizzt in which a Handmaiden is summoned. The next book Starless night Drizzt travels back to his birth city and turns the whole city upside down. The next book siege of drakness the drow city leads an Invasion on Mithral hall during the time of troubles which fails but the whole power house in the drow city is thrown into chaos when the invasion fails. In fact where ever he goes drizzt creates chaos. I think she enjoys his chaos too much to kill him.

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