Well, all high fantasy is a mixture of pseudo-medieval.
You need to read more high fantasy.
? If all this that we're describing is not both high fantasy and pseudo-medieval then what is high fantasy? "Medieval Europe but with magic and dragons and elves" is excatly what I would call "pseudo-medieval" and also excatly what I would call "high fantasy"
And I repeat: you need to read more high fantasy.
High Fantasy doesn't always default to pseudo-medieval-Europe. Sometimes it's Egypt on another planet. Sometimes it's a city floating in the sky, or submerged beneath the ocean. Sometimes it's a desert full of nomads laughing at jokes no one understands. Sometimes it's our own world, merged with another. Sometimes there are no elves, or dragons, or even magic. Sometimes it's something else entirely.
Yes, "pseudo-medieval-Europe" is a very common type of setting found in high fantasy, and one I'm rather fond of. But I wouldn't say that's all it is.
I wasn't saying early matchlocks where super easy to use and worked all the time. Fardragon said that its stated in the source material that some technology simply doesn't work.
You could build a car, but it wouldn't work. I was just saying that's bad logic.
Actually, there is quite a lot of speculation amongst physicists about alternative universes with different physical laws. It's entirely plausible. It also explains why magic spells don't work in our universe.
What makes siege weapons and sewers work but not guns or whatever other technology you don't feel like putting in your setting. There's no point. Just say it hasn't been invented yet.
That is bad logic when your universe contains people like Elminster who can travel between alternative universes (including ours) as well as travel though time.
I'm not saying there should be guns in FR. I'm just saying that their excuse for not having them is bad.
There ARE guns in the Forgotten Realms. They are known as smokepowder weapons. As already stated, they don't function reliably, so you would usually be better with a Wand of Magic Missiles. There are some cannon in TotSC.
My main issue here is the idea that FR is not a medieval setting because in has the stray anachronism. It is clearly a pseudo-medieval or "high fantasy" setting.
"Pseudo-medieval" and "High Fantasy" are very different settings. A realistically pseudo-medieval setting would be classed as "Low Fantasy".
People fight with swords, wear chainmail, have Knights and castles and a feudal system.
During the medieval period most people fought with bows, pikes, lances and other variations of pointy stick. Swords served more as status symbols. It is no coincidence that they are phallic.
There is no such thing as "chainmail". If it is made from interlinked iron or steel rings it is mail. If it isn't made that way, then it is not mail. The prefix "chain" is a redundant modern americanism. D&D has modernisms baked into its core rules.
Much of the Forgotten Realms is not Feudal. Many political systems are practised, including dictatorship, theocracy, magocracy, oligarchy (as in Baldur's Gate) and democracy.
It's not really the idea of a sewer system that's important. The principle and technology is relatively simple. The construction of sewers was driven by urbanisation.
Before the industrial evolution most people where farmers, and the population of cities was relatively low. We would find walking through excrement filled streets unpleasant, but if you where used to it it wouldn't bother you. Industrialisation triggered a mass migration from the countryside to the cities. This rapid increase in population left the gutters simply unable to cope with the volume of excrement. In London, this was called "The Great Stink". This is what caused sewers to be built.
If Baldur's Gate where an actual medieval city, the existance of sewers would be "unlikely" rather than "impossible". However, when you look at the details you see the circular valve controls on water pipes which would require casting high quality steel and machine tools to manufacture, and therefore would have been impossible prior to the 18th century.
I have come to realise that "Western Fantasy" is very literally *western*. Of course the influences by Tolkien and Lovecraft can't be denied, but the typical D&D style fantasy world is much more like the Wild West (as depicted in popular fiction) than medieval Europe:
The setting consists mostly of vast areas of very sparsely explored and settled wilderness; the Government is distant and can only inadequately uphold order; small towns are thus very isolated and independent; it is common for gangs of armed men to roam the countryside; like an order of paladins, the Cavalry struggles to expand the reach of order; the protection of the law depends on heroic individuals and bounty hunters; tribes of hostile "savages" are a constant threat beyond the protection of forts and towns; there is the underlying assumption that everyone can rise to fortune and power through hard labour alone. actual nobles fulfill no function in society, but self-made men and appointed officials do; society is a mix of people from very different cultures; the economy seemingly depends largely on logging and the prospection of precious metals.
Could I please get a working definition for high fantasy? So far I've gotten some rather off putting quips implying I'm not well read enough to understand what high fantasy is, and if only I would read more of it I then understand. How can I read more of it if I don't know what it is? Prior to this I had defined it as a medieval setting with low to medium magic, no guns, and probably some different races. Basically using Tolkien as the model for high fantasy.
@Fardragon I'm on mobile so I'm not going to pick through all the layers of quotes like you did, but I will respond to a few things. First off, about the guns, I was just saying that what you were describing sounded like bad storytelling with a few "a wizard did its" to explain away the lack of guns. If I where to actually read the source material I may judge it differently. That's all. I don't want guns in my BG game, I have pillars of eternity for that. In the end whatever lame mage ex machina they came up with to keep guns out of the world doesn't matter.
just a note to everyone saying magic filled the niche technology does in our world, while I have some problems with that, I'm willing to accept it in this setting. I wasn't disagreeing with that, I was just saying why bother having the technology in the first place? Don't have a gnome build a car then have it just not work, just never have the gnome build the car because he can teleport.
-elmisnter can travel to our universe?!
-swords where used as sidearms. Most of the fighting was done with polearms and larger weapons but swords where widely used by normal soldiers and did not cost that much. To say swords where status symbols would be to say that cars today are status symbols. In some cases they are, like a Mercedes Benz or Maserati. But Lots of people have cars and not everyone has a fancy status symbol car. Fancy swords with gold leaf and jewels where status symbols for Knights, but lots of common soldiers had swords. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lqa1YBdJQ4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dy1fcRG0A3g http://blog.britishmuseum.org/2012/04/20/swords-as-symbols-of-status/
-Oh, for- You know what I meant. Today chainmail, mail, chainmaille, chain armor, and are used interchangeably. I just say chainmail because it's the most widely used term and most people know what I'm talking about. Whatever you call it's, I'm quite familiar with it. This is one of quite a few chainmail bracelets I've made.
its not steel, but it's still chainmail("maille" if your pad antic). It's made using the same 4in1 linking method almost all medieval armor was made with.
As for the political system, you've got a pretty good point, but there are still peasants, lords, and noblemen. If it's not feudal anymore it obviously heavily influence by the feudal system.
I think many people overthink it and make the situation more complicated than it should be. There is no reason that a steam or internal combustion engine couldn't work in a world with magic unless the laws of physics are different there; if they are, then the person creating the world is going to have a difficult time figuring out how things really do work. Just because mages are able to teleport and/or fly doesn't mean that aerodynamics isn't needed or that airplanes won't work.
That being said, if healing magic is available then there really wouldn't be a need for doctors, especially if some healers give away their services for free (as some of the truly good-natured ones would do). Why learn about how diseases are caused or spread when the local healer can give you a "cure disease" potion for a few coins, a healthy goat, or some other goods in trade?
Why bother discovering how to generate and/or harness electricity when mages can enchant pieces of wood to burn like a torch without being consumed or small rocks so that they always give off light and/or heat? Of course, this doesn't stop anyone from figuring out those things, especially on worlds where mages are restricted or outlawed.
Some anachronisms do break immersion to a degree--note the "spaceship" feel of the Planar Sphere near the Copper Coronet--but other worlds allow for them, such as Stephen R. Donaldson's Mordant's Need world where mages can translate anything through shaped mirrors, including a guy with power armor and a blaster rifle.
I've always found Charname calling someone a "psychopath" to be more jarring than anything Neera ever said.
Why? There isn't any technological requirement for psychoanalysis (couches definately exist in FR) and with all those enchanters specialising in mind influencing spells, it seems likely that "the science of the mind" would be pretty advanced.
The AD&D 2nd edition Psionicist class is replete with references to Freudian psychoanalysis (Ego Whip, Id Insinuation); the BG games have, in the past, referenced psionics, even if psionic powers are not currently available to playable characters. It's reasonable to assume that people living in the BG slice of the D&D multiverse are, therefore, at least knowledgable enough about the way the mind works to have a concept for psychosis.
"Psychopath" jars with the medieval setting as it is a distinctly modern term, dating back only as far as the mid 19th century. However, that said, I would give the writers some leeway in this respect as I'm sure that we as players identify many of the characters we meet in BG as psychopaths.
FR characters are as modern as you or I. Most characters (who aren't immortal 23rd level Mages) speak in modern American English where their dialogue is represented.
You want to talk jarring? I have an entirely different standard: try levelling a WoW character and getting your hands on a piece of "Alterac Swiss" cheese. Now that's a dilly of a pickle right there: how'd this piece of cheese get all the way from Switzerland into world-named-after-the-human-kingdom-from-the-original-Warcraft-game?
"Psychopath" jars with the medieval setting as it is a distinctly modern term, dating back only as far as the mid 19th century. However, that said, I would give the writers some leeway in this respect as I'm sure that we as players identify many of the characters we meet in BG as psychopaths.
FR characters are as modern as you or I. Most characters (who aren't immortal 23rd level Mages) speak in modern American English where their dialogue is represented.
You want to talk jarring? I have an entirely different standard: try levelling a WoW character and getting your hands on a piece of "Alterac Swiss" cheese. Now that's a dilly of a pickle right there: how'd this piece of cheese get all the way from Switzerland into world-named-after-the-human-kingdom-from-the-original-Warcraft-game?
Umm... the cheese is so good, it shatters dimensional barriers?
Given that gunpowder in the Realms was a gift to the Lantanese from Gond when they sheltered the god's avatar during the Time of Troubles it's not entirely beyond possibility that a firearm of some sort and a finite amount of powder and shot could be discovered in the Gond temple in Baldur's Gate.
Or, in SoD, Beamdog could add an as yet unknown new NPC: A priest of Gond, who would wield a smokepowder weapon of some sort and have the special ability to generate a small amount of ammunition each day (like Eldoth and his poisoned arrows). Being an exotic weapon, only that character would be able to use it.
I'll just stand over here while heads explode. Honestly, the chances of Beamdog adding any sort of firearm to the game seems less than zero to me, so I don't think it's anything to worry about.
Could I please get a working definition for high fantasy? So far I've gotten some rather off putting quips implying I'm not well read enough to understand what high fantasy is, and if only I would read more of it I then understand. How can I read more of it if I don't know what it is? Prior to this I had defined it as a medieval setting with low to medium magic, no guns, and probably some different races. Basically using Tolkien as the model for high fantasy.
"High fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy, defined either by its setting in an imaginary world or by the epic stature of its characters, themes, and plot."
It's a form of storytelling that is classified by these elements:
-Taking place in an imaginary world (this is usually pseudo-medieval-Europe style world, but it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE).
-An overarching battle between good versus evil, law versus chaos, dark versus light, or some other kinda yatta-yatta theme of great consequence.
-Includes an expansive plot, character cast, or time frame.
-Needs some element of magic (because fantasy).
Some examples are:
Lord of the Rings (Tolkien) Wheel of Time (Robert Jordan) Harry Potter (J.K. Rowling) The Dark Tower (Stephen King) The Rakshura Books (Martha Wells) The Inheritance Trilogy (N.K. Jemisin) Earthsea (Ursula Le Guin) Mistborn (Brandon Sanderson)
Some of these take place in a pseudo-medieval-European style world. Some of these do not. However, they all deal with an overarching epic theme told through a wide cast of characters, extensive plot with multiple books, and some element of magic.
Hope that helps; it really is hard to define. If anyone sees something that needs correcting, feel free to point it out, as I'm hardly an expert. But seriously, this is getting pretty off-topic, so maybe "High Fantasy and what qualifies it" needs its own thread...?
Could I please get a working definition for high fantasy? So far I've gotten some rather off putting quips implying I'm not well read enough to understand what high fantasy is, and if only I would read more of it I then understand. How can I read more of it if I don't know what it is? Prior to this I had defined it as a medieval setting with low to medium magic, no guns, and probably some different races. Basically using Tolkien as the model for high fantasy.
"High fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy, defined either by its setting in an imaginary world or by the epic stature of its characters, themes, and plot."
It's a form of storytelling that is classified by these elements:
-Taking place in an imaginary world (this is usually pseudo-medieval-Europe style world, but it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE).
-An overarching battle between good versus evil, law versus chaos, dark versus light, or some other kinda yatta-yatta theme of great consequence.
-Includes an expansive plot, character cast, or time frame.
-Needs some element of magic (because fantasy).
Some examples are:
Lord of the Rings (Tolkien) Wheel of Time (Robert Jordan) Harry Potter (J.K. Rowling) The Dark Tower (Stephen King) The Rakshura Books (Martha Wells) The Inheritance Trilogy (N.K. Jemisin) Earthsea (Ursula Le Guin) Mistborn (Brandon Sanderson)
Some of these take place in a pseudo-medieval-European style world. Some of these do not. However, they all deal with an overarching epic theme told through a wide cast of characters, extensive plot with multiple books, and some element of magic.
Hope that helps; it really is hard to define. If anyone sees something that needs correcting, feel free to point it out, as I'm hardly an expert. But seriously, this is getting pretty off-topic, so maybe "High Fantasy and what qualifies it" needs its own thread...?
I would have simply called this "fantasy," though it appears I'm mistaken. Very well.
Could I please get a working definition for high fantasy? So far I've gotten some rather off putting quips implying I'm not well read enough to understand what high fantasy is, and if only I would read more of it I then understand. How can I read more of it if I don't know what it is? Prior to this I had defined it as a medieval setting with low to medium magic, no guns, and probably some different races. Basically using Tolkien as the model for high fantasy.
"High fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy, defined either by its setting in an imaginary world or by the epic stature of its characters, themes, and plot."
It's a form of storytelling that is classified by these elements:
-Taking place in an imaginary world (this is usually pseudo-medieval-Europe style world, but it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE).
-An overarching battle between good versus evil, law versus chaos, dark versus light, or some other kinda yatta-yatta theme of great consequence.
-Includes an expansive plot, character cast, or time frame.
-Needs some element of magic (because fantasy).
Some examples are:
Lord of the Rings (Tolkien) Wheel of Time (Robert Jordan) Harry Potter (J.K. Rowling) The Dark Tower (Stephen King) The Rakshura Books (Martha Wells) The Inheritance Trilogy (N.K. Jemisin) Earthsea (Ursula Le Guin) Mistborn (Brandon Sanderson)
Some of these take place in a pseudo-medieval-European style world. Some of these do not. However, they all deal with an overarching epic theme told through a wide cast of characters, extensive plot with multiple books, and some element of magic.
Hope that helps; it really is hard to define. If anyone sees something that needs correcting, feel free to point it out, as I'm hardly an expert. But seriously, this is getting pretty off-topic, so maybe "High Fantasy and what qualifies it" needs its own thread...?
I would have simply called this "fantasy," though it appears I'm mistaken. Very well.
Well, you weren't wrong. It is high fantasy after all.
Or, in SoD, Beamdog could add an as yet unknown new NPC: A priest of Gond, who would wield a smokepowder weapon of some sort
She drives a bus, actually.
As to the actual topic, I can see the issue with overt modernisms breaking immersion (Garrick's "Brave Sir Garrick ran away" VO throws me off every damn time); I also see the modernisms (at least some of them) as being part of the Baldur's Gate experience, if not necessarily the Forgotten Realms one (I get the impression licensor oversight wasn't as rigorous back in the good olde days.)
We try to emulate the tone of the original games as much as possible, without violating FR canon. It's not something I take lightly, but sometimes that target gets missed. That's almost inevitable--every player's going to have their own view of where the target actually is (as do Amber, Phil, Trent, myself, and pretty much everyone else in the office, to say nothing of WotC).
When that happens, I hope the player can forgive the disruption and accept it as an error made in good faith. If they can't, I get that too--god knows I've lost patience and my temper with games that "failed" me. For whatever it's worth, I really appreciate threads like this one, as they give me solid examples of things worth keeping in mind going forward.
If I where to actually read the source material I may judge it differently.
Smokepowder was the Realms magical alchemical equivalent of black powder.
History The difference was in the composition of the powder.The secret to making smokepowder was given by Gond to the Lantanese for sheltering him during the Time of Troubles in 1358 DR. The church of Gond are one of the few manufacturers of smokepowder. It was banned on many cities and a source of friction as it is considered dangerous to use and a threat to the status quo.
Most of the fighting was done with polearms and larger weapons but swords where widely used by normal soldiers and did not cost that much.
Depends what part of the medieval period. In the 5th century, when the period is taken to begin, even a simple iron sword (or ploughshare) was out of the reach of an ordinary person. By the end of the period, 1000 years later, the price had come down significantly.
-Oh, for- You know what I meant. Today chainmail, mail, chainmaille, chain armor, and are used interchangeably.
"Today" being the key word. It wasn't used until Sir Walter Scott coined the term in 1822, and is still considered incorrect by academics (Tolkien, notably, doesn't use it). That makes it just as much a modernism as "Psychopath".
As for the political system, you've got a pretty good point, but there are still peasants, lords, and noblemen.
That would depend where in the Realms you are. In Thay, for example, you are either a Red Wizard or a slave.
"peasants, lords, and noblemen" is a vast oversimplifcation of what is meant by "feudal" anyway. The region of the Sword Coast where Baldur's Gate takes place is clearly not feudal. The City itself appears to be a self perpetuating oligarchy/plutocracy. If it had been Feudal, Saravok's plan to seize power couldn't have worked, since he would have officially been considered a commoner (gods don't count). The surrounding areas: Candlekeep, Friendly Arm Inn, Beragost etc are much too independent to be part of feudal nation. It be feudal, each one would have a lord who has sworn loyalty to a hereditary ruler.
* Bangsian fantasy, interactions with famous historical figures in the afterlife, named for John Kendrick Bangs; * Comic fantasy, humorous in tone; * Contemporary fantasy, set in the real world but involving magic or other supernatural elements; * Dark fantasy, including elements of horror fiction; * Dieselpunk, similar to steampunk but with early 20th century technology; * Epic fantasy, see high fantasy below; * Fables; * Fairy tales themselves, as well as fairytale fantasy, which draws on fairy tale themes; * Fantastic poetry, poetry with a fantastic theme; * Fantastique, French literary genre involving supernatural elements; * Fantasy of manners, or mannerpunk, focusing on matters of social standing in the way of a comedy of manners; * Gaslamp fantasy, stories in a Victorian or Edwardian setting, influenced by gothic fiction; * Gods and demons fiction (shenmo), involving the gods and monsters of Chinese mythology; * "Grimdark" fiction, a somewhat tongue-in-cheek label for fiction with an especially violent tone or dystopian themes; * Hard fantasy, whose supernatural aspects are intended to be internally consistent and explainable, named in analogy to hard science fiction; * High fantasy or epic fantasy, characterized by a plot and themes of epic scale; * Heroic fantasy, concerned with the tales of heroes in imaginary lands; * Historical fantasy, historical fiction with fantasy elements; * Juvenile fantasy, children's literature with fantasy elements; * Legends, which combine a possible factual basis with fictional material; * Low fantasy, characterized by few or non-intrusive supernatural elements, in contrast to high fantasy; * Magic realism, a genre of literary fiction incorporating minor supernatural elements; * Magical girl fantasy, involving young girls with magical powers, mainly in Japanese anime and manga; * Mythic fiction, rooted in or inspired by myth, folklore, and fairy tales; * Mythopoeia, which creates a fictional mythology; * Paranormal romance, romantic fiction with fantasy elements; * Romantic fantasy, focusing on romantic relationships; * Science fantasy, including elements of science fiction; this includes sword and planet and Dying Earth fiction, as noted below; * Steampunk, featuring anachronistic steam-powered machinery; * Superhero fiction, involving super-powered heroes and villains, principally in American comic books; * Sword and sorcery, adventures of sword-wielding heroes, generally more limited in scope than epic fantasy; * Urban fantasy, set in a city; * Weird fiction, a label for macabre and unsettling stories from before the terms "fantasy" and "horror" were widely used; see also the more modern forms of slipstream fiction and the New Weird; * Wuxia, Chinese martial arts fiction often incorporating fantasy elements.
Since this discussion seems to have moved from anachronistic language in BG to anachronisms in general in BG, it always bugs me when I walk into an inn on the promenade in Athkatla and see a grand piano.
The piano was a late eighteenth century invention that didn't reach full development into the modern grand until well into the nineteenth century. Even its forerunner, the harpsichord, didn't start becoming widespread until the late Renaissance at the earliest.
Keyboard instruments of any kind are dreadfully anachronistic in any kind of medieval-renaissance setting.
We also see nineteenth century steampunk sci-fi style technology in places in BG, for example, the machine of Lum the Mad, and the planar sphere.
I agree with the point that was made earlier that BG characters are supposed to simulate tabletop D&D players. There's a certain spectrum of personality types of players that has evolved over time in the sub-culture of people who play D&D, and anachronistic language is definitely a part of it.
Take Rich Burlew's "Order of the Stick", for comparison. Each of the main characters in the strip represents a type of D&D player. In the comic, anachronistic language, pop culture references, and lampshading of tropes are combined to brilliant comedic effect, mixed with plenty of well-written serious character drama. Baldur's Gate did the same sort of thing to a lesser degree long before Burlew got started. I think D&D is at its best when it has a good bit of humor in it, not taking itself too seriously.
It's about people having fun with swords and sorcery, and not about holding to any academic historical standards. So I think maybe it's a case of overthinking it or of missing the point of playing a game to get too wrapped up in what is and isn't anachronistic in the game.
Setting - A world other than ours. It may have a nominal connection with present day Earth, such as being our remote past or future, but this plays no role in the plot. Mythopoeia is often put into play to define the very metaphysics of the world. Nevertheless it often resembles medieval Europe, and is often peopled by People of Hair Color.
Scale - Epic. Power politics, wars, the death of nations, gods walking the earth, and the real threat of The End of the World as We Know It. This is what distinguishes High Fantasy from Heroic Fantasy.
Great evil - An enemy which is near enough Evil incarnate or fundamentally abhorrent
Methods - Victory is not achieved through force of arms, the main feature distinguishing High Fantasy from Heroic Fantasy. If Aragorn had killed Sauron in hand-to-hand combat, that would have been Heroic Fantasy. In short, a Supporting Leader or the Reluctant Hero will be offered up instead of the rough-hewn barbarian of, say, Conan the Barbarian or Beowulf.
So while High Fantasy frequently resembles medieval Europe, it is not mandatory to, nor what defines, High Fantasy. High Fantasy is to Fantasy as Space Opera is to Sci-Fi, go big or go home.
I would suggest that Forgotten Realms with its high magic, superpowered people rich, setting arguably falls somewhere around this and Heroic Fantasy, depending on the story being told and the level that the characters are at.
Or one very much like it. It's mentioned as an aside in one of the novels, sorry can't remember which one.
In Dragon magazine, he regularly dropped in at Ed Greenwood's house for dinner meetings with Mordenkainen from Greyhawk and Dalamar from Dragonlance. He's probably the reason there's all those spells in FR named after Greyhawk mages.
@Fardragon I don't think anyone would mistake BG for the 5th century so my point about the price of swords stands. When I said chainmail I was just using the fact that there is medieval type armor in BG as proof that it is a medieval setting. I wasn't trying to say anything about the raging(and rather annoying) semantic debate on chainmail. If you want to talk about armor and weapon anachronisms, there's a lot more there than just the word "chainmail." -And to be fair to Dnd, in order to make a usable weapon and armor system you have to make clear distinctions between categories of things. A mail shirt with large rings is less protective than a full suit with a very fine weave, but historically thier both just "mail." You need to make that distinction clear to the player, so we get things like "plate mail" "splint mail" and "chainmail"
Since "High Fantasy" is defined by the type of story, you can call Baldur's Gate saga High Fantasy. However, the Forgotten Realms as such cannot be called "High Fantasy" as it is a setting, not a story. You could set a gritty low fantasy story there for example. The same is true for D&D rules: you can tell high fantasy stories with them, but they are not inherently high fantasy.
Since this discussion seems to have moved from anachronistic language in BG to anachronisms in general in BG, it always bugs me when I walk into an inn on the promenade in Athkatla and see a grand piano.
The piano was a late eighteenth century invention that didn't reach full development into the modern grand until well into the nineteenth century. Even its forerunner, the harpsichord, didn't start becoming widespread until the late Renaissance at the earliest.
Keyboard instruments of any kind are dreadfully anachronistic in any kind of medieval-renaissance setting.
We also see nineteenth century steampunk sci-fi style technology in places in BG, for example, the machine of Lum the Mad, and the planar sphere.
@BelgarathMTH ,this I felt when I first saw it about 15 years ago. It does have steampunk elements for sure. What others stated, it also does have high and heroic fantasy style too.
In the beginning your can choose racial enemy for rangers. One of the choices are faerie. Did anyone play as ranger and then couldn't continue the dryads quest being dryads racial enemy as faerie? I'm sure that art director of the BG2 who created faeries was inspired with fairy tale themes.
Furthermore, there are Ilithids, the mind flayers. Gary Gygax said that one of his inspirations for them was the cover painting of the book "The Burrowers Beneath" by Brian Lumley. The Burrowers Beneath deals with Cthulhu monsters created by Lovecraft. -> Another example of dark fantasy.
Sahuagin were created by Steve Marsh who told that an episode of the Justice League cartoon was the original inspiration for the creatures.
To conclude. Dragons and pianos, ilithids, sahuagin and demons show mixes of elements from all fantasies. Perhaps, it's not "black and white" to categorize BG universe in only one fantasy setting.
@Fardragon I don't think anyone would mistake BG for the 5th century so my point about the price of swords stands.
No, but the early medieval period is a popular setting for historical fantasy. We have Vikings and Last Kingdom on TV, not to mention various versions of Beowulf. It's a pretty good setting for a DnD campaign too. Lots of blank areas on maps, small kingdoms and tribal groupings allowing for "Wild West" lawlessness, polytheism still has a strong presence, etc.
When I said chainmail I was just using the fact that there is medieval type armor in BG as proof that it is a medieval setting. I wasn't trying to say anything about the raging(and rather annoying) semantic debate on chainmail. If you want to talk about armor and weapon anachronisms, there's a lot more there than just the word "chainmail." -And to be fair to Dnd, in order to make a usable weapon and armor system you have to make clear distinctions between categories of things. A mail shirt with large rings is less protective than a full suit with a very fine weave, but historically thier both just "mail." You need to make that distinction clear to the player, so we get things like "plate mail" "splint mail" and "chainmail"
Sure, that wasn't my point. My point was that with the DnD rules already full of anachronisms (not least that many of the types of armour and weapons would never have co-existed in the same time and place so there was no need for terminology to distinguish between them), it's kind of pointless to complain about anachronisms in Baldur's Gate. It's telling that the ones that grate with various people is tied to their area of expertise: grand pianos with musicians, railway track with engineers, and so on. Ones that fall outside of our knowledge pass by unnoticed. I expect a lot of the pop culture references from the original game meant nothing to youngsters who came in for the Extended Edition.
I did consider using a historical setting when I started my new PnP campaign last year, but I eventually decided against it, as it creates a lot of pressure to get things right, an I knew one of my players was much more of a history buff than I am.
To [charname] and friends - love Larry, Darryl and Darryl.
A parochial cultural reference to some obscure American comedian of whom the rest of the world has never heard. (It may be a surprise to North Americans, but I had to look up who Bob Newheart was, he's pretty unknown on my side of the Pond.)
Nevertheless, that's an anachronism which is obviously a deliberate joke. I suspect that many of the people complaining in this thread are probably more annoyed by anachronisms which look like careless errors rather than deliberate jests.
To [charname] and friends - love Larry, Darryl and Darryl.
A parochial cultural reference to some obscure American comedian of whom the rest of the world has never heard. (It may be a surprise to North Americans, but I had to look up who Bob Newheart was, he's pretty unknown on my side of the Pond.)
Nevertheless, that's an anachronism which is obviously a deliberate joke. I suspect that many of the people complaining in this thread are probably more annoyed by anachronisms which look like careless errors rather than deliberate jests.
Not really. I don't think anyone is under the impression that the developers included a grand piano because they believed they where a feature of medieval Europe. People are mearly citing them to illustrate the point that Baldur's Gate is not a historical simulation, and to counter the suggestion that Beamdog are responsible for introducing "modernisms" that run counter to the spirit of the original game.
That's true but I can't think of many careless anachronisms that are actually annoying other than maybe, "You rang?".
I haven't seen "You rang?", but if it's in the game, that's an "Addams Family" reference. It's what Lurch always said first when summoned, and it was a running joke on the show.
Neera says that to me all the time when clicked but I didn't know it was a "Addams Family" reference.
That's the thing with pop culture references: if you grew up in the correct decade they are too obvious to mention, if you didn't, they are the hight of obscurity.
Comments
High Fantasy doesn't always default to pseudo-medieval-Europe. Sometimes it's Egypt on another planet. Sometimes it's a city floating in the sky, or submerged beneath the ocean. Sometimes it's a desert full of nomads laughing at jokes no one understands. Sometimes it's our own world, merged with another. Sometimes there are no elves, or dragons, or even magic. Sometimes it's something else entirely.
Yes, "pseudo-medieval-Europe" is a very common type of setting found in high fantasy, and one I'm rather fond of. But I wouldn't say that's all it is.
You can read more about the genre here.
Actually, there is quite a lot of speculation amongst physicists about alternative universes with different physical laws. It's entirely plausible. It also explains why magic spells don't work in our universe.
That is bad logic when your universe contains people like Elminster who can travel between alternative universes (including ours) as well as travel though time.
There ARE guns in the Forgotten Realms. They are known as smokepowder weapons. As already stated, they don't function reliably, so you would usually be better with a Wand of Magic Missiles. There are some cannon in TotSC. "Pseudo-medieval" and "High Fantasy" are very different settings. A realistically pseudo-medieval setting would be classed as "Low Fantasy".
During the medieval period most people fought with bows, pikes, lances and other variations of pointy stick. Swords served more as status symbols. It is no coincidence that they are phallic.
There is no such thing as "chainmail". If it is made from interlinked iron or steel rings it is mail. If it isn't made that way, then it is not mail. The prefix "chain" is a redundant modern americanism. D&D has modernisms baked into its core rules.
Much of the Forgotten Realms is not Feudal. Many political systems are practised, including dictatorship, theocracy, magocracy, oligarchy (as in Baldur's Gate) and democracy.
Knowing some history, I would say.
Before the industrial evolution most people where farmers, and the population of cities was relatively low. We would find walking through excrement filled streets unpleasant, but if you where used to it it wouldn't bother you. Industrialisation triggered a mass migration from the countryside to the cities. This rapid increase in population left the gutters simply unable to cope with the volume of excrement. In London, this was called "The Great Stink". This is what caused sewers to be built.
If Baldur's Gate where an actual medieval city, the existance of sewers would be "unlikely" rather than "impossible". However, when you look at the details you see the circular valve controls on water pipes which would require casting high quality steel and machine tools to manufacture, and therefore would have been impossible prior to the 18th century.
The setting consists mostly of vast areas of very sparsely explored and settled wilderness;
the Government is distant and can only inadequately uphold order;
small towns are thus very isolated and independent;
it is common for gangs of armed men to roam the countryside;
like an order of paladins, the Cavalry struggles to expand the reach of order;
the protection of the law depends on heroic individuals and bounty hunters;
tribes of hostile "savages" are a constant threat beyond the protection of forts and towns;
there is the underlying assumption that everyone can rise to fortune and power through hard labour alone.
actual nobles fulfill no function in society, but self-made men and appointed officials do;
society is a mix of people from very different cultures;
the economy seemingly depends largely on logging and the prospection of precious metals.
@Fardragon I'm on mobile so I'm not going to pick through all the layers of quotes like you did, but I will respond to a few things.
First off, about the guns, I was just saying that what you were describing sounded like bad storytelling with a few "a wizard did its" to explain away the lack of guns. If I where to actually read the source material I may judge it differently. That's all. I don't want guns in my BG game, I have pillars of eternity for that. In the end whatever lame mage ex machina they came up with to keep guns out of the world doesn't matter. -elmisnter can travel to our universe?!
-swords where used as sidearms. Most of the fighting was done with polearms and larger weapons but swords where widely used by normal soldiers and did not cost that much. To say swords where status symbols would be to say that cars today are status symbols. In some cases they are, like a Mercedes Benz or Maserati. But Lots of people have cars and not everyone has a fancy status symbol car. Fancy swords with gold leaf and jewels where status symbols for Knights, but lots of common soldiers had swords.
http://blog.britishmuseum.org/2012/04/20/swords-as-symbols-of-status/
-Oh, for- You know what I meant. Today chainmail, mail, chainmaille, chain armor, and are used interchangeably. I just say chainmail because it's the most widely used term and most people know what I'm talking about. Whatever you call it's, I'm quite familiar with it. This is one of quite a few chainmail bracelets I've made.
As for the political system, you've got a pretty good point, but there are still peasants, lords, and noblemen. If it's not feudal anymore it obviously heavily influence by the feudal system.
That being said, if healing magic is available then there really wouldn't be a need for doctors, especially if some healers give away their services for free (as some of the truly good-natured ones would do). Why learn about how diseases are caused or spread when the local healer can give you a "cure disease" potion for a few coins, a healthy goat, or some other goods in trade?
Why bother discovering how to generate and/or harness electricity when mages can enchant pieces of wood to burn like a torch without being consumed or small rocks so that they always give off light and/or heat? Of course, this doesn't stop anyone from figuring out those things, especially on worlds where mages are restricted or outlawed.
Some anachronisms do break immersion to a degree--note the "spaceship" feel of the Planar Sphere near the Copper Coronet--but other worlds allow for them, such as Stephen R. Donaldson's Mordant's Need world where mages can translate anything through shaped mirrors, including a guy with power armor and a blaster rifle.
You want to talk jarring? I have an entirely different standard: try levelling a WoW character and getting your hands on a piece of "Alterac Swiss" cheese. Now that's a dilly of a pickle right there: how'd this piece of cheese get all the way from Switzerland into world-named-after-the-human-kingdom-from-the-original-Warcraft-game?
Or, in SoD, Beamdog could add an as yet unknown new NPC: A priest of Gond, who would wield a smokepowder weapon of some sort and have the special ability to generate a small amount of ammunition each day (like Eldoth and his poisoned arrows). Being an exotic weapon, only that character would be able to use it.
I'll just stand over here while heads explode.
It's a form of storytelling that is classified by these elements:
-Taking place in an imaginary world (this is usually pseudo-medieval-Europe style world, but it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE).
-An overarching battle between good versus evil, law versus chaos, dark versus light, or some other kinda yatta-yatta theme of great consequence.
-Includes an expansive plot, character cast, or time frame.
-Needs some element of magic (because fantasy).
Some examples are:
Lord of the Rings (Tolkien)
Wheel of Time (Robert Jordan)
Harry Potter (J.K. Rowling)
The Dark Tower (Stephen King)
The Rakshura Books (Martha Wells)
The Inheritance Trilogy (N.K. Jemisin)
Earthsea (Ursula Le Guin)
Mistborn (Brandon Sanderson)
Some of these take place in a pseudo-medieval-European style world. Some of these do not. However, they all deal with an overarching epic theme told through a wide cast of characters, extensive plot with multiple books, and some element of magic.
Hope that helps; it really is hard to define. If anyone sees something that needs correcting, feel free to point it out, as I'm hardly an expert. But seriously, this is getting pretty off-topic, so maybe "High Fantasy and what qualifies it" needs its own thread...?
As to the actual topic, I can see the issue with overt modernisms breaking immersion (Garrick's "Brave Sir Garrick ran away" VO throws me off every damn time); I also see the modernisms (at least some of them) as being part of the Baldur's Gate experience, if not necessarily the Forgotten Realms one (I get the impression licensor oversight wasn't as rigorous back in the good olde days.)
We try to emulate the tone of the original games as much as possible, without violating FR canon. It's not something I take lightly, but sometimes that target gets missed. That's almost inevitable--every player's going to have their own view of where the target actually is (as do Amber, Phil, Trent, myself, and pretty much everyone else in the office, to say nothing of WotC).
When that happens, I hope the player can forgive the disruption and accept it as an error made in good faith. If they can't, I get that too--god knows I've lost patience and my temper with games that "failed" me. For whatever it's worth, I really appreciate threads like this one, as they give me solid examples of things worth keeping in mind going forward.
History
The difference was in the composition of the powder.The secret to making smokepowder was given by Gond to the Lantanese for sheltering him during the Time of Troubles in 1358 DR. The church of Gond are one of the few manufacturers of smokepowder. It was banned on many cities and a source of friction as it is considered dangerous to use and a threat to the status quo.
Source: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Smokepowder Or one very much like it. It's mentioned as an aside in one of the novels, sorry can't remember which one. Depends what part of the medieval period. In the 5th century, when the period is taken to begin, even a simple iron sword (or ploughshare) was out of the reach of an ordinary person. By the end of the period, 1000 years later, the price had come down significantly. "Today" being the key word. It wasn't used until Sir Walter Scott coined the term in 1822, and is still considered incorrect by academics (Tolkien, notably, doesn't use it). That makes it just as much a modernism as "Psychopath". That would depend where in the Realms you are. In Thay, for example, you are either a Red Wizard or a slave.
"peasants, lords, and noblemen" is a vast oversimplifcation of what is meant by "feudal" anyway. The region of the Sword Coast where Baldur's Gate takes place is clearly not feudal. The City itself appears to be a self perpetuating oligarchy/plutocracy. If it had been Feudal, Saravok's plan to seize power couldn't have worked, since he would have officially been considered a commoner (gods don't count). The surrounding areas: Candlekeep, Friendly Arm Inn, Beragost etc are much too independent to be part of feudal nation. It be feudal, each one would have a lord who has sworn loyalty to a hereditary ruler.
* Bangsian fantasy, interactions with famous historical figures in the afterlife, named for John Kendrick Bangs;
* Comic fantasy, humorous in tone;
* Contemporary fantasy, set in the real world but involving magic or other supernatural elements;
* Dark fantasy, including elements of horror fiction;
* Dieselpunk, similar to steampunk but with early 20th century technology;
* Epic fantasy, see high fantasy below;
* Fables;
* Fairy tales themselves, as well as fairytale fantasy, which draws on fairy tale themes;
* Fantastic poetry, poetry with a fantastic theme;
* Fantastique, French literary genre involving supernatural elements;
* Fantasy of manners, or mannerpunk, focusing on matters of social standing in the way of a comedy of manners;
* Gaslamp fantasy, stories in a Victorian or Edwardian setting, influenced by gothic fiction;
* Gods and demons fiction (shenmo), involving the gods and monsters of Chinese mythology;
* "Grimdark" fiction, a somewhat tongue-in-cheek label for fiction with an especially violent tone or dystopian themes;
* Hard fantasy, whose supernatural aspects are intended to be internally consistent and explainable, named in analogy to hard science fiction;
* High fantasy or epic fantasy, characterized by a plot and themes of epic scale;
* Heroic fantasy, concerned with the tales of heroes in imaginary lands;
* Historical fantasy, historical fiction with fantasy elements;
* Juvenile fantasy, children's literature with fantasy elements;
* Legends, which combine a possible factual basis with fictional material;
* Low fantasy, characterized by few or non-intrusive supernatural elements, in contrast to high fantasy;
* Magic realism, a genre of literary fiction incorporating minor supernatural elements;
* Magical girl fantasy, involving young girls with magical powers, mainly in Japanese anime and manga;
* Mythic fiction, rooted in or inspired by myth, folklore, and fairy tales;
* Mythopoeia, which creates a fictional mythology;
* Paranormal romance, romantic fiction with fantasy elements;
* Romantic fantasy, focusing on romantic relationships;
* Science fantasy, including elements of science fiction; this includes sword and planet and Dying Earth fiction, as noted below;
* Steampunk, featuring anachronistic steam-powered machinery;
* Superhero fiction, involving super-powered heroes and villains, principally in American comic books;
* Sword and sorcery, adventures of sword-wielding heroes, generally more limited in scope than epic fantasy;
* Urban fantasy, set in a city;
* Weird fiction, a label for macabre and unsettling stories from before the terms "fantasy" and "horror" were widely used; see also the more modern forms of slipstream fiction and the New Weird;
* Wuxia, Chinese martial arts fiction often incorporating fantasy elements.
The piano was a late eighteenth century invention that didn't reach full development into the modern grand until well into the nineteenth century. Even its forerunner, the harpsichord, didn't start becoming widespread until the late Renaissance at the earliest.
Keyboard instruments of any kind are dreadfully anachronistic in any kind of medieval-renaissance setting.
We also see nineteenth century steampunk sci-fi style technology in places in BG, for example, the machine of Lum the Mad, and the planar sphere.
I agree with the point that was made earlier that BG characters are supposed to simulate tabletop D&D players. There's a certain spectrum of personality types of players that has evolved over time in the sub-culture of people who play D&D, and anachronistic language is definitely a part of it.
Take Rich Burlew's "Order of the Stick", for comparison. Each of the main characters in the strip represents a type of D&D player. In the comic, anachronistic language, pop culture references, and lampshading of tropes are combined to brilliant comedic effect, mixed with plenty of well-written serious character drama. Baldur's Gate did the same sort of thing to a lesser degree long before Burlew got started. I think D&D is at its best when it has a good bit of humor in it, not taking itself too seriously.
It's about people having fun with swords and sorcery, and not about holding to any academic historical standards. So I think maybe it's a case of overthinking it or of missing the point of playing a game to get too wrapped up in what is and isn't anachronistic in the game.
I would suggest that Forgotten Realms with its high magic, superpowered people rich, setting arguably falls somewhere around this and Heroic Fantasy, depending on the story being told and the level that the characters are at.
When I said chainmail I was just using the fact that there is medieval type armor in BG as proof that it is a medieval setting. I wasn't trying to say anything about the raging(and rather annoying) semantic debate on chainmail. If you want to talk about armor and weapon anachronisms, there's a lot more there than just the word "chainmail."
-And to be fair to Dnd, in order to make a usable weapon and armor system you have to make clear distinctions between categories of things. A mail shirt with large rings is less protective than a full suit with a very fine weave, but historically thier both just "mail." You need to make that distinction clear to the player, so we get things like "plate mail" "splint mail" and "chainmail"
In the beginning your can choose racial enemy for rangers. One of the choices are faerie.
Did anyone play as ranger and then couldn't continue the dryads quest being dryads racial enemy as faerie?
I'm sure that art director of the BG2 who created faeries was inspired with fairy tale themes.
Furthermore, there are Ilithids, the mind flayers. Gary Gygax said that one of his inspirations for them was the cover painting of the book "The Burrowers Beneath" by Brian Lumley. The Burrowers Beneath deals with Cthulhu monsters created by Lovecraft.
-> Another example of dark fantasy.
Sahuagin were created by Steve Marsh who told that an episode of the Justice League cartoon was the original inspiration for the creatures.
To conclude. Dragons and pianos, ilithids, sahuagin and demons show mixes of elements from all fantasies.
Perhaps, it's not "black and white" to categorize BG universe in only one fantasy setting.
Sure, that wasn't my point. My point was that with the DnD rules already full of anachronisms (not least that many of the types of armour and weapons would never have co-existed in the same time and place so there was no need for terminology to distinguish between them), it's kind of pointless to complain about anachronisms in Baldur's Gate. It's telling that the ones that grate with various people is tied to their area of expertise: grand pianos with musicians, railway track with engineers, and so on. Ones that fall outside of our knowledge pass by unnoticed. I expect a lot of the pop culture references from the original game meant nothing to youngsters who came in for the Extended Edition.
I did consider using a historical setting when I started my new PnP campaign last year, but I eventually decided against it, as it creates a lot of pressure to get things right, an I knew one of my players was much more of a history buff than I am.
Nevertheless, that's an anachronism which is obviously a deliberate joke. I suspect that many of the people complaining in this thread are probably more annoyed by anachronisms which look like careless errors rather than deliberate jests.