Just my two cents (everyone is giving their two cents here anyway) but as long as Safana won't be rewritten in order to be in tune with her original personnality (I don't support censoring female sexuality in fictionnal characters, and I'm female myself.), I won't be buying SoD.
Perhaps beamdog should just have nothing but selection sounds for characters. That way everyone can be happy that they were preserved so faithfully.
Five days later:
I, for one, oppose the new selection sounds, as they are not true to the characters. They have obviously been rewritten to fit some inclusionist SJW political agenda being pushed by Beamdog. I will not be purchasing the game until they hire an actual writer that can make the selection sounds more true to the characters they were in BG1.
After hearing once and again ridiculous claims about "changes in Safana", I think I've had enough.
Here're all possible BG1 banters for Safana:
Replies to Coran:
"I assume, Coran, that you think that your elven charms are considerably. Let me enlighten you, they aren't!" "Watch what you say, Elf!" "I might find you attractive, Coran, if you weren't so irritating."
INSULT towards Minsc/Edwin/Garrick - My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them.
RESPONSE TO INSULT (from Ajantis and Tiax) - I like it when you're nasty to me. - You could be somewhat more creative in your insults.
COMPLIMENT (towards Kivan, Ajantis/Xan) - You're a very sexy man. - I'd love to see what other skills you possess.
RESPONSE TO COMPLIMENT (from Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth) - I always love a good compliment. - I love it when you speak to me that way! - You have about as much appeal as a rotting owl bear! - You think that I'd surrendur myself to the likes of you? That's a laugh!
GENERAL DEATH - The rest of you should be careful, lest you end up like our unfortunate friend.
UNIQUE DEATH (after Coran's death) - Don't die silly elf, I didn't mean all of the things I've said.
Here're all general BG1 quotes for Safana:
INT = I've been looking for. . . strong men like yourselves. MOR = Nothing's worth dying for. BCY = N/A LEA = This is probably the sanest decision this group has ever made. TIR = A woman needs her beauty rest. BOR = Perhaps we could do something a little more exciting than looking pretty. HUR = I'm hurt, stop what you're doing and help me now. DMG = *Damage Sound* DYN = *Death Sound*
Where INT = First encounter with NPC MOR = Morale Failure BCY = Occurs when launching into battle LEA = NPC moved to Leader slot TIR = Fatigue BOR = Idle HUR = Takes Damage DMG = Damage Sound DYN = Death Sound
Here're all BG1 reputation quotes for Safana:
HPY = Mmmmm. I keep very pleasant company. ANY = I really think this party needs new leadership. SRS = To lead this party, we need someone intelligent, preferably female, and most likely me. BRK = I've tried to guide this group in the right direction, but I'm tired of trying. Goodbye.
Where HPY = HAPPY ANY = UNHAPPY_ANNOYED SRS = UNHAPPY_SERIOUS BRK = UNHAPPY_BREAKING_POINT
Here're all BG1 selection lines for Safana:
CMN = Yes dear? CMN = I'll do anything. CMN = I feel so sensual. RAR = Between two evils I always choose the one I haven't tried. RAR = I love it when you speak to me that way. RAR = When I'm good I'm very very good, but when I'm bad I'm better. RAR = Everyone in this party is entitled to my opinion. ACT = If that's your desire. ACT = With pleasure. ACT = Of course, darling.
Where CMN = SELECT_COMMON RAR = SELECT_RARE ACT = SELECT_ACTION
Here's the only BG1 area quote for Safana:
CTY = The city is a beautiful place, so full of the gullible and stupid.
Where CTY = AREA_CITY
Other than these, there're no unique banter dialogues for Safana in BG1.
Instead of these few lines, Safana in SoD has a lot more about her.
Here's just one her starting SoD dialogue:
Safana: Damn you to all Nine Hells, Coran, I swear I'm going to -- Oh, Hello. Charname: Greetings. How does this afternoon find you, Safana? Safana: It's been less than pleasant thus far, but it's improving by the second. Come in, Charname, come in. Make yourself comfortable. Safana: What brings you to my door? Charname: A desire to see you isn't sufficient? Safana: Nice try, Charname. I've spent the last month with that two-faced elf, Coran. A flattering tongue will get you nowhere. What do you want, really? Charname: Your company on a journey north. I go to face the Shining Lade, Caelar Argent. Safana: Who? Charname: Caelar Argent. We're going to fight her. We'd like your help. Safana: "We"? Or "you"? Charname: We. Safana: You're hurting my feeling, Charname. But I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to...
This is one dialogue, ONE. Even in this dialogue Safana already says more than nearly during whole BG1. And even in this one dialogue Safana, true to her BG1 lines, speaks about Coran.
And even in this one dialogue Safana already has an innuendo: "We"? Or "you"? and "I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to..."
There's a lot more of Safana in SoD after that.
A romance for a male charname. A romance with another NPC for a female charname.
And all her lines are voiced in a very sexy manner by Stephanie Wolfe, who stays true to the vanilla voice over work by Diane Pershing.
So, please, stop telling about rewriting Safana in order to be in tune with her original personality.
SoD Safana is very much in tune with BG1 Safana, but with more banters, a romance and voiced lines.
I thought about creating a new thread for this, but decided not to.
Anyway, I'd love to know what the playerbase would have done if Beamdog had included content leanings towards a different political direction. Let us say that they had a joke in the game that was supportive of Trump. Or a character named Trump who was portrayed in a positive light.
I guarantee that those people on these forums who say Mizheena etc is not a big deal would be singing a very different tune if anything positive about Trump, or Trump-like politics was in the game. There would be boycotts and Twitter wars.
I thought about creating a new thread for this, but decided not to.
Anyway, I'd love to know what the playerbase would have done if Beamdog had included content leanings towards a different political direction. Let us say that they had a joke in the game that was supportive of Trump. Or a character named Trump who was portrayed in a positive light.
I guarantee that those people on these forums who say Mizheena etc is not a big deal would be singing a very different tune if anything positive about Trump, or Trump-like politics was in the game. There would be boycotts and Twitter wars.
I romanticized Jaheiras character(used Safana once maybe), since I killed Khalid early on, her comments were never nagging wife for me. I always took them to be the nagging druid, since I'd expect a druid to say something. Haha, I wonder if that's the problem for so many others? dropped Khalid early on so how could she be the nagging wife if she isn't married .
I thought about creating a new thread for this, but decided not to.
Anyway, I'd love to know what the playerbase would have done if Beamdog had included content leanings towards a different political direction. Let us say that they had a joke in the game that was supportive of Trump. Or a character named Trump who was portrayed in a positive light.
I guarantee that those people on these forums who say Mizheena etc is not a big deal would be singing a very different tune if anything positive about Trump, or Trump-like politics was in the game. There would be boycotts and Twitter wars.
1) If Minsc had had a joke selection quote about "Making adventuring great again!", absolutely noone would care. There would be no boycott or Twitter war about it. Guaranteed. Similar jokes have popped up all over pop culture in the last six months and failed to offend anybody.
2) Could you please read the link above again, and then explain why you feel the existence of a transgendered character is equivalent to a character who is an expy or based directly around a controversial businessman/politician currently running for office? Because your entire point hinges on those two things being equivalent.
(Super secret bonus answer: a Donald Trump expy was in Gremlins 2, and Gremlins 2 is awesome, so there: clear proof nobody would have cared about Trump anyway provided that SoD was made in 1990.)
Because the acceptance or not of transgender people, and thus characters, is political. I thought this was clear from the reaction to it.
If it was not political, there would have been no reaction. Quite simple really.
Ask 100 Americans what they feel about transgenderism and you will probably get 100 different responses. It is a contentious and highly political issue. Opinions on it mostly fall along party lines, with Democrats being more accepting of transgender people and Republicans less accepting.
Hence, it is political and should not have been in the game.
(Super secret bonus answer: a Donald Trump expy was in Gremlins 2, and Gremlins 2 is awesome, so there: clear proof nobody would have cared about Trump anyway provided that SoD was made in 1990.)
He was also the basis for Old Biff in Back to the Future 2, where he... wasn't quite as awesome.
Because the acceptance or not of transgender people, and thus characters, is political.
Well, that's refreshing. I thought we were going to have to go through the usual smokescreen about "tokenism" and such before the admission that you think the very existence of transgendered people is an inherently left-wing thing.
(It isn't, by the way. Transgender people exist; that is scientifically and medically proven and it really doesn't matter if some people want to think differently due to political convictions.)
You did not, however, address the obvious problem with your post that "a transgendered character" is not a political statement on the same level as "putting Donald Trump in the game". Nor did you acknowledge the fact that the Trumpism "Make X great again" would not have attracted even remotely the same response than the "ethics in heroic adventuring" line did.
(It is also arguable whether Trump is right-wing and therefore any sort of suitable "mirror" of the supposedly left-wing existence of a transgendered person, but that's another debate.)
If it was not political, there would have been no reaction. Quite simple really.
The reaction to it came almost entirely from Gamergatea group of people who just happen to act like, sound like, and believe all the same things as Gamergate a certain group of internet activists who say things like "SJW" constantly and were very upset about Minsc's now-cut line.
This isn't really a right-versus-left thing, as that certain group of internet activists who will go unnamed do not handily fit into those political categories. By and large, Beamdog has not been harassed by or gotten complaints from "right wingers" or even religious right wingers.
Ask 100 Americans what they feel about transgenderism and you will probably get 100 different responses. It is a contentious and highly political issue. Opinions on it mostly fall along party lines, with Democrats being more accepting of transgender people and Republicans less accepting.
Actually, it's more complex than that and depends on precisely what question is being asked. It also breaks down along different lines (Catholics are far more supportive of transgender rights than Protestants regardless of party affiliation in most polls I've seen, for example)
Hence, it is political and should not have been in the game.
Ah-ha. So, because monarchy and indeed all forms of government are inherently political, they should also not be in the game? Environmentalism is political, so toss all druids (bye, Jaheira!)? Significant portions of the religious right believe magic is a real thing you can do by making deals with demons (and specifically think D&D teaches people to do this), so remove all magic and all demons? Carrying concealed weapons is pretty political, and so's literally anything to do with warfare. Better cut all combat, just to be sure.
We could keep going like this until there's literally nothing left, if you like. You want an unpolitical game? Go play Tetris and try to pretend it isn't from Russia.
After hearing once and again ridiculous claims about "changes in Safana", I think I've had enough.
Here're all possible BG1 banters for Safana:
Replies to Coran:
"I assume, Coran, that you think that your elven charms are considerably. Let me enlighten you, they aren't!" "Watch what you say, Elf!" "I might find you attractive, Coran, if you weren't so irritating."
INSULT towards Minsc/Edwin/Garrick - My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them.
RESPONSE TO INSULT (from Ajantis and Tiax) - I like it when you're nasty to me. - You could be somewhat more creative in your insults.
COMPLIMENT (towards Kivan, Ajantis/Xan) - You're a very sexy man. - I'd love to see what other skills you possess.
RESPONSE TO COMPLIMENT (from Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth) - I always love a good compliment. - I love it when you speak to me that way! - You have about as much appeal as a rotting owl bear! - You think that I'd surrendur myself to the likes of you? That's a laugh!
GENERAL DEATH - The rest of you should be careful, lest you end up like our unfortunate friend.
UNIQUE DEATH (after Coran's death) - Don't die silly elf, I didn't mean all of the things I've said.
Here're all general BG1 quotes for Safana:
INT = I've been looking for. . . strong men like yourselves. MOR = Nothing's worth dying for. BCY = N/A LEA = This is probably the sanest decision this group has ever made. TIR = A woman needs her beauty rest. BOR = Perhaps we could do something a little more exciting than looking pretty. HUR = I'm hurt, stop what you're doing and help me now. DMG = *Damage Sound* DYN = *Death Sound*
Where INT = First encounter with NPC MOR = Morale Failure BCY = Occurs when launching into battle LEA = NPC moved to Leader slot TIR = Fatigue BOR = Idle HUR = Takes Damage DMG = Damage Sound DYN = Death Sound
Here're all BG1 reputation quotes for Safana:
HPY = Mmmmm. I keep very pleasant company. ANY = I really think this party needs new leadership. SRS = To lead this party, we need someone intelligent, preferably female, and most likely me. BRK = I've tried to guide this group in the right direction, but I'm tired of trying. Goodbye.
Where HPY = HAPPY ANY = UNHAPPY_ANNOYED SRS = UNHAPPY_SERIOUS BRK = UNHAPPY_BREAKING_POINT
Here're all BG1 selection lines for Safana:
CMN = Yes dear? CMN = I'll do anything. CMN = I feel so sensual. RAR = Between two evils I always choose the one I haven't tried. RAR = I love it when you speak to me that way. RAR = When I'm good I'm very very good, but when I'm bad I'm better. RAR = Everyone in this party is entitled to my opinion. ACT = If that's your desire. ACT = With pleasure. ACT = Of course, darling.
Where CMN = SELECT_COMMON RAR = SELECT_RARE ACT = SELECT_ACTION
Here's the only BG1 area quote for Safana:
CTY = The city is a beautiful place, so full of the gullible and stupid.
Where CTY = AREA_CITY
Other than these, there're no unique banter dialogues for Safana in BG1.
Instead of these few lines, Safana in SoD has a lot more about her.
Here's just one her starting SoD dialogue:
Safana: Damn you to all Nine Hells, Coran, I swear I'm going to -- Oh, Hello. Charname: Greetings. How does this afternoon find you, Safana? Safana: It's been less than pleasant thus far, but it's improving by the second. Come in, Charname, come in. Make yourself comfortable. Safana: What brings you to my door? Charname: A desire to see you isn't sufficient? Safana: Nice try, Charname. I've spent the last month with that two-faced elf, Coran. A flattering tongue will get you nowhere. What do you want, really? Charname: Your company on a journey north. I go to face the Shining Lade, Caelar Argent. Safana: Who? Charname: Caelar Argent. We're going to fight her. We'd like your help. Safana: "We"? Or "you"? Charname: We. Safana: You're hurting my feeling, Charname. But I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to...
This is one dialogue, ONE. Even in this dialogue Safana already says more than nearly during whole BG1. And even in this one dialogue Safana, true to her BG1 lines, speaks about Coran.
And even in this one dialogue Safana already has an innuendo: "We"? Or "you"? and "I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to..."
There's a lot more of Safana in SoD after that.
A romance for a male charname. A romance with another NPC for a female charname.
And all her lines are voiced in a very sexy manner by Stephanie Wolfe, who stays true to the vanilla voice over work by Diane Pershing.
So, please, stop telling about rewriting Safana in order to be in tune with her original personality.
SoD Safana is very much in tune with BG1 Safana, but with more banters, a romance and voiced lines.
Posts like these make me wish I could click Insightful, Like and Agree all together on one post.
Yes please. Stupid tree huggers are standing in the way of progress. We need more paved roads to easily move around, walled cities for safety and commerce, and irrigated farmlands for prosperous growth. Let's get rid of these hippies and make the Sword Coast great again!
Yes please. Stupid tree huggers are standing in the way of progress. We need more paved roads to easily move around, walled cities for safety and commerce, and irrigated farmlands for prosperous growth. Let's get rid of these hippies and make the Sword Coast great again!
1) If Minsc had had a joke selection quote about "Making adventuring great again!", absolutely noone would care. There would be no boycott or Twitter war about it. Guaranteed. Similar jokes have popped up all over pop culture in the last six months and failed to offend anybody.
I'm one of those #nevertrump people, and I would find that hilarious
After hearing once and again ridiculous claims about "changes in Safana", I think I've had enough.
Here're all possible BG1 banters for Safana:
Replies to Coran:
"I assume, Coran, that you think that your elven charms are considerably. Let me enlighten you, they aren't!" "Watch what you say, Elf!" "I might find you attractive, Coran, if you weren't so irritating."
INSULT towards Minsc/Edwin/Garrick - My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them.
RESPONSE TO INSULT (from Ajantis and Tiax) - I like it when you're nasty to me. - You could be somewhat more creative in your insults.
COMPLIMENT (towards Kivan, Ajantis/Xan) - You're a very sexy man. - I'd love to see what other skills you possess.
RESPONSE TO COMPLIMENT (from Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth) - I always love a good compliment. - I love it when you speak to me that way! - You have about as much appeal as a rotting owl bear! - You think that I'd surrendur myself to the likes of you? That's a laugh!
GENERAL DEATH - The rest of you should be careful, lest you end up like our unfortunate friend.
UNIQUE DEATH (after Coran's death) - Don't die silly elf, I didn't mean all of the things I've said.
Here're all general BG1 quotes for Safana:
INT = I've been looking for. . . strong men like yourselves. MOR = Nothing's worth dying for. BCY = N/A LEA = This is probably the sanest decision this group has ever made. TIR = A woman needs her beauty rest. BOR = Perhaps we could do something a little more exciting than looking pretty. HUR = I'm hurt, stop what you're doing and help me now. DMG = *Damage Sound* DYN = *Death Sound*
Where INT = First encounter with NPC MOR = Morale Failure BCY = Occurs when launching into battle LEA = NPC moved to Leader slot TIR = Fatigue BOR = Idle HUR = Takes Damage DMG = Damage Sound DYN = Death Sound
Here're all BG1 reputation quotes for Safana:
HPY = Mmmmm. I keep very pleasant company. ANY = I really think this party needs new leadership. SRS = To lead this party, we need someone intelligent, preferably female, and most likely me. BRK = I've tried to guide this group in the right direction, but I'm tired of trying. Goodbye.
Where HPY = HAPPY ANY = UNHAPPY_ANNOYED SRS = UNHAPPY_SERIOUS BRK = UNHAPPY_BREAKING_POINT
Here're all BG1 selection lines for Safana:
CMN = Yes dear? CMN = I'll do anything. CMN = I feel so sensual. RAR = Between two evils I always choose the one I haven't tried. RAR = I love it when you speak to me that way. RAR = When I'm good I'm very very good, but when I'm bad I'm better. RAR = Everyone in this party is entitled to my opinion. ACT = If that's your desire. ACT = With pleasure. ACT = Of course, darling.
Where CMN = SELECT_COMMON RAR = SELECT_RARE ACT = SELECT_ACTION
Here's the only BG1 area quote for Safana:
CTY = The city is a beautiful place, so full of the gullible and stupid.
Where CTY = AREA_CITY
Other than these, there're no unique banter dialogues for Safana in BG1.
Instead of these few lines, Safana in SoD has a lot more about her.
Here's just one her starting SoD dialogue:
Safana: Damn you to all Nine Hells, Coran, I swear I'm going to -- Oh, Hello. Charname: Greetings. How does this afternoon find you, Safana? Safana: It's been less than pleasant thus far, but it's improving by the second. Come in, Charname, come in. Make yourself comfortable. Safana: What brings you to my door? Charname: A desire to see you isn't sufficient? Safana: Nice try, Charname. I've spent the last month with that two-faced elf, Coran. A flattering tongue will get you nowhere. What do you want, really? Charname: Your company on a journey north. I go to face the Shining Lade, Caelar Argent. Safana: Who? Charname: Caelar Argent. We're going to fight her. We'd like your help. Safana: "We"? Or "you"? Charname: We. Safana: You're hurting my feeling, Charname. But I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to...
This is one dialogue, ONE. Even in this dialogue Safana already says more than nearly during whole BG1. And even in this one dialogue Safana, true to her BG1 lines, speaks about Coran.
And even in this one dialogue Safana already has an innuendo: "We"? Or "you"? and "I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to..."
There's a lot more of Safana in SoD after that.
A romance for a male charname. A romance with another NPC for a female charname.
And all her lines are voiced in a very sexy manner by Stephanie Wolfe, who stays true to the vanilla voice over work by Diane Pershing.
So, please, stop telling about rewriting Safana in order to be in tune with her original personality.
SoD Safana is very much in tune with BG1 Safana, but with more banters, a romance and voiced lines.
I do not find her true to her bg1 characterization and I am afraid that one dialogue hardly proves the point.
From the broad brush strokes of bg1 she is supposed to be (amongst other things) manipulative and charming and forthright when she cannot get her way or is not interested in doing so.
Her annoyed reaction to Coran is to do with the fact his character as a womaniser and either (1) she cannot get her way with him as she would like (he is somewhat immune to her charms); (2) she sees Coran as her own mirror reflection (a kind of self loathing). In any case, it is not correct to extrapolate her general character (as annoying) from her interactions with Coran.
Likewise she has abrasive comments to others she does not find attractive or cannot manipulate (Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth). Her comment (Minsc/Edwin/Garrick): "My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them." is not an insult but a flirtation.
But all I get from SoD is annoying - although she has 17 cha, I get the impression from the way she talks it is closer to 3.
@Baeloth_Jnr I've talked about this in another thread, but I'll say it here too, under spoilers since it technically has BG2 spoilers in it and this thread seems to attract newer users.
Safana got "a personality upgrade", as Amber Scott said, and I agree with that. We get to see a piece of her personality that only comes out in one moment of BG1 (that becomes a focal point of her character in BG2) expanded upon. Namely, in BG1 when you meet her, she's all seductive language and suggestive implications, but as soon as you actually let her join the party, she immediately comments that the group needs better leadership...namely her! In BG2, she expands on this aspect of her personality (also a piece of her personality that is gone into in the BG1 bio if you care to read it) of using and discarding people in her life for her own purposes and for her own advantage, and it seems quite extreme to see the jump from the one line in BG1 to the expanded cruelty and disdain she has in BG2 that lead all the way up to her conspiring to murder you with a wolfwere.
Amber Scott and the other writers wrote a linkage in SoD which is a perfect link between the personality of BG1 and BG2 by having her be crueler to CHARNAME now that she knows him well (or her, but lbr she acts like CHARNAME's a he either way if there's at least one man in the party in BG1, something they correct for SoD), letting slip a bit of her seductive mask to reveal the contempt behind it (and even here the contempt is playful, not to tip her hand too much about how lethal this contempt can get, as we find out in BG2). I think this is flawless characterization perfectly in line with BG1 and BG2, and in fact it serves to explain something that would otherwise have only been explained with her BG1 bio and that one line upon joining, which is to say, something left relatively unexplained!
Instead, we get to see the progression from seductress trying to stay in your good books, to seductress so confident she's in your good books that she stops trying so hard, to the outright betrayal in BG2. It's a perfect bridge and really good writing, and not at all a revision of her character or a rewrite that doesn't match...in fact, it's kind of the only thing that makes BG1 and BG2 match, aside from her bio and the 1 line upon joining...which the SoD content is in line with! It's an expansion of pre-existing facets of Safana that elevates her from the one dimensionality of BG1's characterization using content from BG1 and BG2 as inspiration. It's perfect, and I don't see why anyone who has actually played the original games would think the SoD content was a "rewrite" in any way.
Similarly, anyone who has played BG2 knows that the way Jaheira is handled in SoD is not a "rewrite" of Jaheira but instead an expansion of who we discover she is in BG2, so that there is a preview of that characterization in SoD to link BG1 to BG2 more fluidly than what had previously been the case. So again, for people who actually are part of the Baldur's Gate fanbase, it's no surprise that Jaheira was written that way in Siege of Dragonspear, and in fact it's a welcome fleshing out of pre-existing personality traits we were exposed to in BG2 if we had her in our party and especially if we romanced her. But some "common complaints" about Jaheira are clearly from people who didn't care about (or know about, or "remember accurately" if I'm being charitable) Jaheira's depiction in BG2 at all, and just wanted the one-note depiction of Baldur's Gate to be what we saw...but that doesn't make sense if your goal is to write an expansion that bridges BG1 and BG2. Amber Scott and Beamdog were doing their job, and doing it well. People who didn't bother to play all the way through SoD (or BG2, it seems) have had problems with SoD that don't exist for anyone in the fanbase who actually played all of these games many many times over the past few decades, because we know who these characters are and we can understand these linkages perfectly well.
That lends even more credence to the idea that a lot of these common complaints are only common because it's quite common for people who haven't played the original games to not understand what's going on, and apparently quite common for them to feel like that makes them an authority on the game enough to speak on it. Which is b.s.
Amber Scott's comments were not insulting to the fanbase, although the common complaints about her comments are definitely insulting to our intelligence as fans of the game who know they're not based on anything except a false perception of these characters (or, charitably, on a perception of these characters based only on BG1, but even then they're ignoring the clues in Safana's characterization that existed even then).
And if those people don't like that, too bad. They didn't play the games anyway, or they don't remember them very well. That's not Amber's or Beamdog's problem, that's their problem.
tl;dr version, if you think Safana and Jaheira are being mischaracterized you're misremembering, never discovered or never played key parts of BG1 and BG2 pertaining to those characters, and the evidence is in BG1 and BG2.
After hearing once and again ridiculous claims about "changes in Safana", I think I've had enough.
Here're all possible BG1 banters for Safana:
Replies to Coran:
"I assume, Coran, that you think that your elven charms are considerably. Let me enlighten you, they aren't!" "Watch what you say, Elf!" "I might find you attractive, Coran, if you weren't so irritating."
INSULT towards Minsc/Edwin/Garrick - My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them.
RESPONSE TO INSULT (from Ajantis and Tiax) - I like it when you're nasty to me. - You could be somewhat more creative in your insults.
COMPLIMENT (towards Kivan, Ajantis/Xan) - You're a very sexy man. - I'd love to see what other skills you possess.
RESPONSE TO COMPLIMENT (from Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth) - I always love a good compliment. - I love it when you speak to me that way! - You have about as much appeal as a rotting owl bear! - You think that I'd surrendur myself to the likes of you? That's a laugh!
GENERAL DEATH - The rest of you should be careful, lest you end up like our unfortunate friend.
UNIQUE DEATH (after Coran's death) - Don't die silly elf, I didn't mean all of the things I've said.
Here're all general BG1 quotes for Safana:
INT = I've been looking for. . . strong men like yourselves. MOR = Nothing's worth dying for. BCY = N/A LEA = This is probably the sanest decision this group has ever made. TIR = A woman needs her beauty rest. BOR = Perhaps we could do something a little more exciting than looking pretty. HUR = I'm hurt, stop what you're doing and help me now. DMG = *Damage Sound* DYN = *Death Sound*
Where INT = First encounter with NPC MOR = Morale Failure BCY = Occurs when launching into battle LEA = NPC moved to Leader slot TIR = Fatigue BOR = Idle HUR = Takes Damage DMG = Damage Sound DYN = Death Sound
Here're all BG1 reputation quotes for Safana:
HPY = Mmmmm. I keep very pleasant company. ANY = I really think this party needs new leadership. SRS = To lead this party, we need someone intelligent, preferably female, and most likely me. BRK = I've tried to guide this group in the right direction, but I'm tired of trying. Goodbye.
Where HPY = HAPPY ANY = UNHAPPY_ANNOYED SRS = UNHAPPY_SERIOUS BRK = UNHAPPY_BREAKING_POINT
Here're all BG1 selection lines for Safana:
CMN = Yes dear? CMN = I'll do anything. CMN = I feel so sensual. RAR = Between two evils I always choose the one I haven't tried. RAR = I love it when you speak to me that way. RAR = When I'm good I'm very very good, but when I'm bad I'm better. RAR = Everyone in this party is entitled to my opinion. ACT = If that's your desire. ACT = With pleasure. ACT = Of course, darling.
Where CMN = SELECT_COMMON RAR = SELECT_RARE ACT = SELECT_ACTION
Here's the only BG1 area quote for Safana:
CTY = The city is a beautiful place, so full of the gullible and stupid.
Where CTY = AREA_CITY
Other than these, there're no unique banter dialogues for Safana in BG1.
Instead of these few lines, Safana in SoD has a lot more about her.
Here's just one her starting SoD dialogue:
Safana: Damn you to all Nine Hells, Coran, I swear I'm going to -- Oh, Hello. Charname: Greetings. How does this afternoon find you, Safana? Safana: It's been less than pleasant thus far, but it's improving by the second. Come in, Charname, come in. Make yourself comfortable. Safana: What brings you to my door? Charname: A desire to see you isn't sufficient? Safana: Nice try, Charname. I've spent the last month with that two-faced elf, Coran. A flattering tongue will get you nowhere. What do you want, really? Charname: Your company on a journey north. I go to face the Shining Lade, Caelar Argent. Safana: Who? Charname: Caelar Argent. We're going to fight her. We'd like your help. Safana: "We"? Or "you"? Charname: We. Safana: You're hurting my feeling, Charname. But I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to...
This is one dialogue, ONE. Even in this dialogue Safana already says more than nearly during whole BG1. And even in this one dialogue Safana, true to her BG1 lines, speaks about Coran.
And even in this one dialogue Safana already has an innuendo: "We"? Or "you"? and "I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to..."
There's a lot more of Safana in SoD after that.
A romance for a male charname. A romance with another NPC for a female charname.
And all her lines are voiced in a very sexy manner by Stephanie Wolfe, who stays true to the vanilla voice over work by Diane Pershing.
So, please, stop telling about rewriting Safana in order to be in tune with her original personality.
SoD Safana is very much in tune with BG1 Safana, but with more banters, a romance and voiced lines.
Sorry, but the differences look even clearer than ever now that you've posted them side-by-side. Even when insulted in BG1, Safana may still try to endear herself/manipulate the other NPC, whereas SoD Safana is just generally snarky and off-putting all around (and BTW, "My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them," is NOT an insult). SoD basically turned Safana into Viconia.
Sorry, but the differences look even clearer than ever now that you've posted them side-by-side. Even when insulted in BG1, Safana may still try to endear herself/manipulate the other NPC, whereas SoD Safana is just generally snarky and off-putting all around (and BTW, "My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them," is NOT an insult). SoD basically turned Safana into Viconia.
You say snarky and off-putting differences between depictions toe-may-toes!
I say elaborating on a previously unexplored gap between canon BG1 biography/dialogue and BG2 dialogue in a satisfying and well-written way that doesn't deviate from either of Baldur's Gate canon sources in any way but in fact bridges the two to provide a previously lacking explanation via hints in her characterization toh-mah-tahs!
Good thing SoD is such a juicy, delicious vegetab...uh...fruit? Plant, anyway.
I'm sorry, but no. Viconia would never (except for late ToB if in romance) admit to not be able to say no to charname. It just contradicts her character, her independent role, her drow nature.
Safana flirts with charname right after seeing him in the doorway of her inn room. It's very well in line with Safana in BG1. I don't see any difference and it doesn't look like Viconia at all.
And now, about Safana-Coran relationship.
As shown above, BG1 had only a handful of banters between them. And it's completely understandable that during several weeks of more close relations Safana could find out Coran better. So, "a silly elf" from BG1 could very much turn into someone who she wants to "damto to Nine Hells". No matter, how much a woman wants to be *sensual* (using the BG1 terminology), if her man acts wrong all time, she can become really angry at him.
Sorry, but the differences look even clearer than ever now that you've posted them side-by-side.
That's because BG1 has so little banter and personality sharing that you seem to have filled in the blanks yourself in your head and dressed the few lines of conversation in BG1 with context, traits and characterization that jsut isn't there. I do the same sometimes when a character isn't fleshed out enought to fill in all the blanks.
So saying that your PERSONAL interpretation of Safana differs from Beamdogs and that theirs is wrong and yours is right is kinda childish and, to be frank, just plain incorrect.
I haven't played SoD but I truly wonder if it would have been the same reactions to male companions, like if say Kagain got a personality upgrade. It often feels like most reactions stems down to it being a FEMALE that changes and a MALE who reacts to it. Whenever females stop being just sexual beings, alot of boys get threatened because the picking order has been changed.
Look. Why don't we just post a trigger warning for all of the conservatives who may be offended by Mizhena. It's clearly needed to keep some people from being traumatized to the very cores of their souls.
I mean, do you have ANY idea how delicious I would find that? Not to mention lusciously ironic that the *right* so sorely needs one?
Sorry, but the differences look even clearer than ever now that you've posted them side-by-side.
That's because BG1 has so little banter and personality sharing that you seem to have filled in the blanks yourself in your head and dressed the few lines of conversation in BG1 with context, traits and characterization that jsut isn't there. I do the same sometimes when a character isn't fleshed out enought to fill in all the blanks.
So saying that your PERSONAL interpretation of Safana differs from Beamdogs and that theirs is wrong and yours is right is kinda childish and, to be frank, just plain incorrect.
I haven't played SoD but I truly wonder if it would have been the same reactions to male companions, like if say Kagain got a personality upgrade. It often feels like most reactions stems down to it being a FEMALE that changes and a MALE who reacts to it. Whenever females stop being just sexual beings, alot of boys get threatened because the picking order has been changed.
1. Whatever Safana got it wasn;t an 'upgrade'. 2. As for the comment "Whenever females stop being just sexual beings"; this is just wrong. As has been well covered, the original Safana exercised her own sexual agency. The new Safana on the other hand is a whiny annoyance wanting all the boys to give her compliments and presents. Indeed, if you want to put things in terms of SJW tropes (as you seem to), then I'd say the new Safana is a more sexist caricature than the old one.
I'm sorry, but no. Viconia would never (except for late ToB if in romance) admit to not be able to say no to charname. It just contradicts her character, her independent role, her drow nature.
Safana flirts with charname right after seeing him in the doorway of her inn room. It's very well in line with Safana in BG1. I don't see any difference and it doesn't look like Viconia at all.
And now, about Safana-Coran relationship.
As shown above, BG1 had only a handful of banters between them. And it's completely understandable that during several weeks of more close relations Safana could find out Coran better. So, "a silly elf" from BG1 could very much turn into someone who she wants to "damto to Nine Hells". No matter, how much a woman wants to be *sensual* (using the BG1 terminology), if her man acts wrong all time, she can become really angry at him.
Furthermore...Coran the adventurer who spends every minute fighting for his life against the terrors of the sword coast is probably a very different Coran who has R&R in the city.
Traveling through the cloakwood and you are the only Cha17 female around? I'm sure you'll have his attention.
Just had a hard day fighting werewolves and you want your feet rubbed? I'm sure he'll do it.
A few weeks of him having nothing to do, gold to spend, and all of a major city before him? Yeah, different dynamics.
Makes sense to me that he'd go from 'silly elf' to 'damn him'
Comments
I, for one, oppose the new selection sounds, as they are not true to the characters. They have obviously been rewritten to fit some inclusionist SJW political agenda being pushed by Beamdog. I will not be purchasing the game until they hire an actual writer that can make the selection sounds more true to the characters they were in BG1.
Here're all possible BG1 banters for Safana:
Replies to Coran:
"I assume, Coran, that you think that your elven charms are considerably. Let me enlighten you, they aren't!"
"Watch what you say, Elf!"
"I might find you attractive, Coran, if you weren't so irritating."
INSULT towards Minsc/Edwin/Garrick
- My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them.
RESPONSE TO INSULT (from Ajantis and Tiax)
- I like it when you're nasty to me.
- You could be somewhat more creative in your insults.
COMPLIMENT (towards Kivan, Ajantis/Xan)
- You're a very sexy man.
- I'd love to see what other skills you possess.
RESPONSE TO COMPLIMENT (from Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth)
- I always love a good compliment.
- I love it when you speak to me that way!
- You have about as much appeal as a rotting owl bear!
- You think that I'd surrendur myself to the likes of you? That's a laugh!
GENERAL DEATH
- The rest of you should be careful, lest you end up like our unfortunate friend.
UNIQUE DEATH (after Coran's death)
- Don't die silly elf, I didn't mean all of the things I've said.
Here're all general BG1 quotes for Safana:
INT = I've been looking for. . . strong men like yourselves.
MOR = Nothing's worth dying for.
BCY = N/A
LEA = This is probably the sanest decision this group has ever made.
TIR = A woman needs her beauty rest.
BOR = Perhaps we could do something a little more exciting than looking pretty.
HUR = I'm hurt, stop what you're doing and help me now.
DMG = *Damage Sound*
DYN = *Death Sound*
Where
INT = First encounter with NPC
MOR = Morale Failure
BCY = Occurs when launching into battle
LEA = NPC moved to Leader slot
TIR = Fatigue
BOR = Idle
HUR = Takes Damage
DMG = Damage Sound
DYN = Death Sound
Here're all BG1 reputation quotes for Safana:
HPY = Mmmmm. I keep very pleasant company.
ANY = I really think this party needs new leadership.
SRS = To lead this party, we need someone intelligent, preferably female, and most likely me.
BRK = I've tried to guide this group in the right direction, but I'm tired of trying. Goodbye.
Where
HPY = HAPPY
ANY = UNHAPPY_ANNOYED
SRS = UNHAPPY_SERIOUS
BRK = UNHAPPY_BREAKING_POINT
Here're all BG1 selection lines for Safana:
CMN = Yes dear?
CMN = I'll do anything.
CMN = I feel so sensual.
RAR = Between two evils I always choose the one I haven't tried.
RAR = I love it when you speak to me that way.
RAR = When I'm good I'm very very good, but when I'm bad I'm better.
RAR = Everyone in this party is entitled to my opinion.
ACT = If that's your desire.
ACT = With pleasure.
ACT = Of course, darling.
Where
CMN = SELECT_COMMON
RAR = SELECT_RARE
ACT = SELECT_ACTION
Here's the only BG1 area quote for Safana:
CTY = The city is a beautiful place, so full of the gullible and stupid.
Where
CTY = AREA_CITY
Other than these, there're no unique banter dialogues for Safana in BG1.
Source:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/11692/list-of-npc-interactions-banters
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/12045/npc-interaction-and-banter-guide-ok-finished
Instead of these few lines, Safana in SoD has a lot more about her.
Here's just one her starting SoD dialogue:
Safana: Damn you to all Nine Hells, Coran, I swear I'm going to -- Oh, Hello.
Charname: Greetings. How does this afternoon find you, Safana?
Safana: It's been less than pleasant thus far, but it's improving by the second. Come in, Charname, come in. Make yourself comfortable.
Safana: What brings you to my door?
Charname: A desire to see you isn't sufficient?
Safana: Nice try, Charname. I've spent the last month with that two-faced elf, Coran. A flattering tongue will get you nowhere. What do you want, really?
Charname: Your company on a journey north. I go to face the Shining Lade, Caelar Argent.
Safana: Who?
Charname: Caelar Argent. We're going to fight her. We'd like your help.
Safana: "We"? Or "you"?
Charname: We.
Safana: You're hurting my feeling, Charname. But I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to...
This is one dialogue, ONE. Even in this dialogue Safana already says more than nearly during whole BG1. And even in this one dialogue Safana, true to her BG1 lines, speaks about Coran.
And even in this one dialogue Safana already has an innuendo: "We"? Or "you"? and "I never could say no to you. Then again, I can't think of a single thing you could ask that would make me want to..."
There's a lot more of Safana in SoD after that.
A romance for a male charname. A romance with another NPC for a female charname.
And all her lines are voiced in a very sexy manner by Stephanie Wolfe, who stays true to the vanilla voice over work by Diane Pershing.
So, please, stop telling about rewriting Safana in order to be in tune with her original personality.
SoD Safana is very much in tune with BG1 Safana, but with more banters, a romance and voiced lines.
Anyway, I'd love to know what the playerbase would have done if Beamdog had included content leanings towards a different political direction. Let us say that they had a joke in the game that was supportive of Trump. Or a character named Trump who was portrayed in a positive light.
I guarantee that those people on these forums who say Mizheena etc is not a big deal would be singing a very different tune if anything positive about Trump, or Trump-like politics was in the game. There would be boycotts and Twitter wars.
Besides: we're not there yet.
I romanticized Jaheiras character(used Safana once maybe), since I killed Khalid early on, her comments were never nagging wife for me. I always took them to be the nagging druid, since I'd expect a druid to say something.
Haha, I wonder if that's the problem for so many others? dropped Khalid early on so how could she be the nagging wife if she isn't married
But, to answer your question:
1) If Minsc had had a joke selection quote about "Making adventuring great again!", absolutely noone would care. There would be no boycott or Twitter war about it. Guaranteed. Similar jokes have popped up all over pop culture in the last six months and failed to offend anybody.
2) Could you please read the link above again, and then explain why you feel the existence of a transgendered character is equivalent to a character who is an expy or based directly around a controversial businessman/politician currently running for office? Because your entire point hinges on those two things being equivalent.
If it was not political, there would have been no reaction. Quite simple really.
Ask 100 Americans what they feel about transgenderism and you will probably get 100 different responses. It is a contentious and highly political issue. Opinions on it mostly fall along party lines, with Democrats being more accepting of transgender people and Republicans less accepting.
Hence, it is political and should not have been in the game.
(It isn't, by the way. Transgender people exist; that is scientifically and medically proven and it really doesn't matter if some people want to think differently due to political convictions.)
You did not, however, address the obvious problem with your post that "a transgendered character" is not a political statement on the same level as "putting Donald Trump in the game". Nor did you acknowledge the fact that the Trumpism "Make X great again" would not have attracted even remotely the same response than the "ethics in heroic adventuring" line did.
(It is also arguable whether Trump is right-wing and therefore any sort of suitable "mirror" of the supposedly left-wing existence of a transgendered person, but that's another debate.) The reaction to it came almost entirely from
Gamergatea group of people who just happen to act like, sound like, and believe all the same things as Gamergatea certain group of internet activists who say things like "SJW" constantly and were very upset about Minsc's now-cut line.This isn't really a right-versus-left thing, as that certain group of internet activists who will go unnamed do not handily fit into those political categories. By and large, Beamdog has not been harassed by or gotten complaints from "right wingers" or even religious right wingers. Actually, it's more complex than that and depends on precisely what question is being asked. It also breaks down along different lines (Catholics are far more supportive of transgender rights than Protestants regardless of party affiliation in most polls I've seen, for example) Ah-ha. So, because monarchy and indeed all forms of government are inherently political, they should also not be in the game? Environmentalism is political, so toss all druids (bye, Jaheira!)? Significant portions of the religious right believe magic is a real thing you can do by making deals with demons (and specifically think D&D teaches people to do this), so remove all magic and all demons? Carrying concealed weapons is pretty political, and so's literally anything to do with warfare. Better cut all combat, just to be sure.
We could keep going like this until there's literally nothing left, if you like. You want an unpolitical game? Go play Tetris and try to pretend it isn't from Russia.
From the broad brush strokes of bg1 she is supposed to be (amongst other things) manipulative and charming and forthright when she cannot get her way or is not interested in doing so.
Her annoyed reaction to Coran is to do with the fact his character as a womaniser and either (1) she cannot get her way with him as she would like (he is somewhat immune to her charms); (2) she sees Coran as her own mirror reflection (a kind of self loathing).
In any case, it is not correct to extrapolate her general character (as annoying) from her interactions with Coran.
Likewise she has abrasive comments to others she does not find attractive or cannot manipulate (Xzar, Khalid and Eldoth).
Her comment (Minsc/Edwin/Garrick): "My feet are very sore, perhaps you could massage them." is not an insult but a flirtation.
But all I get from SoD is annoying - although she has 17 cha, I get the impression from the way she talks it is closer to 3.
Amber Scott and the other writers wrote a linkage in SoD which is a perfect link between the personality of BG1 and BG2 by having her be crueler to CHARNAME now that she knows him well (or her, but lbr she acts like CHARNAME's a he either way if there's at least one man in the party in BG1, something they correct for SoD), letting slip a bit of her seductive mask to reveal the contempt behind it (and even here the contempt is playful, not to tip her hand too much about how lethal this contempt can get, as we find out in BG2). I think this is flawless characterization perfectly in line with BG1 and BG2, and in fact it serves to explain something that would otherwise have only been explained with her BG1 bio and that one line upon joining, which is to say, something left relatively unexplained!
Instead, we get to see the progression from seductress trying to stay in your good books, to seductress so confident she's in your good books that she stops trying so hard, to the outright betrayal in BG2. It's a perfect bridge and really good writing, and not at all a revision of her character or a rewrite that doesn't match...in fact, it's kind of the only thing that makes BG1 and BG2 match, aside from her bio and the 1 line upon joining...which the SoD content is in line with! It's an expansion of pre-existing facets of Safana that elevates her from the one dimensionality of BG1's characterization using content from BG1 and BG2 as inspiration. It's perfect, and I don't see why anyone who has actually played the original games would think the SoD content was a "rewrite" in any way.
Similarly, anyone who has played BG2 knows that the way Jaheira is handled in SoD is not a "rewrite" of Jaheira but instead an expansion of who we discover she is in BG2, so that there is a preview of that characterization in SoD to link BG1 to BG2 more fluidly than what had previously been the case. So again, for people who actually are part of the Baldur's Gate fanbase, it's no surprise that Jaheira was written that way in Siege of Dragonspear, and in fact it's a welcome fleshing out of pre-existing personality traits we were exposed to in BG2 if we had her in our party and especially if we romanced her. But some "common complaints" about Jaheira are clearly from people who didn't care about (or know about, or "remember accurately" if I'm being charitable) Jaheira's depiction in BG2 at all, and just wanted the one-note depiction of Baldur's Gate to be what we saw...but that doesn't make sense if your goal is to write an expansion that bridges BG1 and BG2. Amber Scott and Beamdog were doing their job, and doing it well. People who didn't bother to play all the way through SoD (or BG2, it seems) have had problems with SoD that don't exist for anyone in the fanbase who actually played all of these games many many times over the past few decades, because we know who these characters are and we can understand these linkages perfectly well.
That lends even more credence to the idea that a lot of these common complaints are only common because it's quite common for people who haven't played the original games to not understand what's going on, and apparently quite common for them to feel like that makes them an authority on the game enough to speak on it. Which is b.s.
Amber Scott's comments were not insulting to the fanbase, although the common complaints about her comments are definitely insulting to our intelligence as fans of the game who know they're not based on anything except a false perception of these characters (or, charitably, on a perception of these characters based only on BG1, but even then they're ignoring the clues in Safana's characterization that existed even then).
And if those people don't like that, too bad. They didn't play the games anyway, or they don't remember them very well. That's not Amber's or Beamdog's problem, that's their problem.
tl;dr version, if you think Safana and Jaheira are being mischaracterized you're misremembering, never discovered or never played key parts of BG1 and BG2 pertaining to those characters, and the evidence is in BG1 and BG2.
I say elaborating on a previously unexplored gap between canon BG1 biography/dialogue and BG2 dialogue in a satisfying and well-written way that doesn't deviate from either of Baldur's Gate canon sources in any way but in fact bridges the two to provide a previously lacking explanation via hints in her characterization toh-mah-tahs!
Good thing SoD is such a juicy, delicious vegetab...uh...fruit? Plant, anyway.
Safana flirts with charname right after seeing him in the doorway of her inn room. It's very well in line with Safana in BG1. I don't see any difference and it doesn't look like Viconia at all.
And now, about Safana-Coran relationship.
As shown above, BG1 had only a handful of banters between them. And it's completely understandable that during several weeks of more close relations Safana could find out Coran better. So, "a silly elf" from BG1 could very much turn into someone who she wants to "damto to Nine Hells". No matter, how much a woman wants to be *sensual* (using the BG1 terminology), if her man acts wrong all time, she can become really angry at him.
So saying that your PERSONAL interpretation of Safana differs from Beamdogs and that theirs is wrong and yours is right is kinda childish and, to be frank, just plain incorrect.
I haven't played SoD but I truly wonder if it would have been the same reactions to male companions, like if say Kagain got a personality upgrade. It often feels like most reactions stems down to it being a FEMALE that changes and a MALE who reacts to it. Whenever females stop being just sexual beings, alot of boys get threatened because the picking order has been changed.
I mean, do you have ANY idea how delicious I would find that? Not to mention lusciously ironic that the *right* so sorely needs one?
2. As for the comment "Whenever females stop being just sexual beings"; this is just wrong.
As has been well covered, the original Safana exercised her own sexual agency. The new Safana on the other hand is a whiny annoyance wanting all the boys to give her compliments and presents.
Indeed, if you want to put things in terms of SJW tropes (as you seem to), then I'd say the new Safana is a more sexist caricature than the old one.
Traveling through the cloakwood and you are the only Cha17 female around? I'm sure you'll have his attention.
Just had a hard day fighting werewolves and you want your feet rubbed? I'm sure he'll do it.
A few weeks of him having nothing to do, gold to spend, and all of a major city before him? Yeah, different dynamics.
Makes sense to me that he'd go from 'silly elf' to 'damn him'