1. Balance - Try to achieve some sort of balances between classes, don't make some super overlord classes and tell people to (ab)use them and deal with it. People should not be discouraged for playing in a "wrong" way. Being faithful with original is good but being faithful for the sake of doing so could potentially make the game unfun when you do not have GM to mediate. Either tune classes so that they are viable no matter what the setup is or enforce a strict roles for each char so that balanced party is recommended. (And personal suggestion here : Get rid of all the contingincies/sequencers/immunities/untargetables, nerf them hard or put more ways to counter them.)
2. Campaign Editors - Would like to see more player created contents, not the super restricted SCL type dungeon maker but one that would enable players to create entire games and so on.
3. Forging System - I think players should be allowed to create their own weapons/armors/trinkets, progressing up as the player grows stronger and is able to gather more powerful/rare reagents. Who doesn't want handmade +6 epic weapons with options that you chose?
3. Forging System - I think players should be allowed to create their own weapons/armors/trinkets, progressing up as the player grows stronger and is able to gather more powerful/rare reagents. Who doesn't want handmade +6 epic weapons with options that you chose?
Me. Forging systems deteriorate lore as well as the higher end drops. In games like Skyrim and Inquisition, I rarely use items found in the game because, I (or my forger) can create more powerful weapons then I get off of enemies.
How BG series implements it is better. Either finding hide or items, that a specialist can use to create an above average weapon, or collecting pieces of a lost and forgotten artifact to have a specialist recreate it. This preserves the lore woven into the game and keeps what you find balanced to what can be created for you.
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it just make NWN2 but with 5e rules. Robust and expansive modding tools, very faithful to the P&P version of the game, real-time-with-pause gameplay with both third person and isometric cameras.
Edit: Of course I mean without all the bugs and initial camera issues that NWN2 had.
We are a DM's and developers nightmare without a doubt. I spent a few minutes reading all the posts and these seem to be common themes. Not to be read in any specific order.
Isometric Turn Based or Real Time With Pause to simulate Robust character creation and customization Big fascinating detailed immersive worlds Good music More moddable with better modding tools for rules and world building Fun balanced gameplay Better monster/enemy AI Interesting companions that grow with more friendship/romance options More class and race diverse companions to make full good and neutral And evil parties Excellent story with different alignment branches/choices/consequences/endings More role playing opportunities instead of always fighting monsters Smart villain with interesting motivation Player choices to "adventure" freely in different areas ala BG2 Ch2 Player options to do quests in a different order while advancing the story. More branching dialog options without enforced structure And with different outcomes Ability checks changing dialogs and outcomes Multiple ways to resolve quests Moar Better Dragons Backstabbing Ferrets with 's Gazebos
A very good list. Thanks. I'm going to underline this point:
Player choices to "adventure" freely in different areas ala BG2 Ch2
and add that (a) to do it right you need so many side quests that you can forget the main plot and (b) this opportunity should come early. See the popularity of the dungeon be gone mod -- let's get to chapter 2 shall we?
I read J.E. Sawyer's comments on BG chapter 2 and he thought / thinks this chapter is/was a design flaw. For Sawyer, it is better to have a good number of side quests in each chapter and not load them all into one. This is the way that SoD is organized and the way PoE is organized; I'm calling this modern design theory. Chapter 1 -- five or six side quests, optional battles; Chapter 2 -- 6 or 7 side quests, optional battles . . .
But I also think that is why PoE -- the game with superior graphics and a superior story [*] -- doesn't have the same replay value that BG2 does. There are plots I would really like to replay in the PoE city -- but I'm not willing to go through all the other chapters to get there.
Tl;DR -- While PoE has plenty of "free adventure areas" in the form of optional battles it doesn't allow the player to ignore the plot altogether
oh and @Buttercheese -- great find! Thanks for the poem. We agree that villains need to be SMRT to be interesting!
You make an interesting point @killerrabbit I hadn’t really thought about it much before, but I agree. I like having the bulk of the quests available to be completed when, and in the order, that the player chooses to do them, rather than having to advance the main quest in order to gain access to a few more side quests.
3. Forging System - I think players should be allowed to create their own weapons/armors/trinkets, progressing up as the player grows stronger and is able to gather more powerful/rare reagents. Who doesn't want handmade +6 epic weapons with options that you chose?
Me. Forging systems deteriorate lore as well as the higher end drops. In games like Skyrim and Inquisition, I rarely use items found in the game because, I (or my forger) can create more powerful weapons then I get off of enemies.
How BG series implements it is better. Either finding hide or items, that a specialist can use to create an above average weapon, or collecting pieces of a lost and forgotten artifact to have a specialist recreate it. This preserves the lore woven into the game and keeps what you find balanced to what can be created for you.
Yeah why stress in getting Carsomyr if my player character could just whip up something better by putting a few pieces of iron together? Not to mention all of these items usually have extensive lore about how they were made and so on.. Likely took a lot of skill and magic that shouldn't really be available for a low level character waltzing through the neverwinter streets...
@killerrabbit Thanks for elaborating more. I was trying to summarize everybody's points together without losing too much individual detail. I added "Player options to do quests in a different order while advancing the story." does that work better?
Obviously they are reading everything here. Hopefully they will work everybody's full suggestions in somewhere but realistically in order to release something you have to acknowledge that you can't do it all.
Well said @killerrabbit though I would like to add that modern design theory, as you call it, usually wreaks havoc when it comes to immersion. BG2 chapter 2 is the place to place all those sidequests because you are not lacking a soul and hurrying to save it and the Suldanesselar. Actually you have a very good reason to do all that side questing in chapter 2: money. Of course you get your money in first hour in the city without a mod that raises the asked amount but it is a different sort of design flaw.
Concerning crafting: I have nothing in particular against it, but player character(s) should not be experts in everything. Good blacksmith, for example, trains for years and keeps his know-how up by constantly blacksmithing. PC usually does heroish and actionish stuff with like minded companions. All your crafting needs should be fulfilled by experts in crafting matters and they should demand their works worth in gold. Good balance might be if the best craftable items just cost so much that there is not enough money in whole game to fully arm the player (and pro_hisher team if game has one). This also handles the usual problem of money becoming worthless.
And then a suggestion of my own: fewer but better and more important fights. Some sort of dream game of mine would have Planescape good writing for running around and preparing for a battle you know is coming. Perhaps the game has you playing as a leader of mercenary band and you know that village that hired you is about to be attacked by bandits, so you prepare the defenses, handle morale and delegate some minor jobs to your followers. All this affect the grand finale of that quest/chapter/plot when you have great fight against the overwhelming bandit group that being the only fight in that quest/chapter/plot. Compare this to running trough 5 to 10 minor encounters before having a fight against some sort of boss creature (Firkraag's dungeon might be prime example).
One thing about crafting items is to take into consideration that in 5e, which I assume we'll be using, magic items are much more rare. Items don't have prices attached to them because the items are priceless.
Because of this I think we should have maybe more consumable items or required items. Like maybe buying torches and adventuring gear and stuff.
1. Very short prologue. In BG1 you can talk to Gorion immediately and start exploring. In BG2 the prologue is too long–a full play session–which discourages staring new games. 2. Interface similar to the Infinity Engine. 3. Use of skills in dialogue.
1. Forgotten Realms based 2. 3D based engine with similar approach to the Aurora engine, but much better (I really do like isometric for single player only, but I would prefer 3D for a game where people can make their own servers for online play) 3. Toolset, full DM client and Persistent World capability
1. Persistent world multiplayer support 2. Persistent world multiplayer support 3. Persistent world multiplayer support
Seriously, you don't need to re-invent the wheel. If you just make a solid successor to NWN1/2, you'll attract the thousands of players STILL actively playing those games online on roleplaying worlds. People are clamouring for a replacement, because right now, there's still nothing that can replace NWN on the multiplayer persistent world front.
Single player RPGs are available in spades. Give us something with multiplayer and mods, and let us create our own adventures.
1. Good writing. I enjoyed the EE games and SoD, but writing has always been Beamdog's biggest weakness. This obviously can become a problem in a text heavy game.
2. Character customization and options. One the reasons why BG2 (and later the first game after it became heavily modded) had such longevity is the sheer number of class/kit/build options. No playthrough is the same. Games like Planescape and FF VII had a bigger impact on me when I first played them, but all these years later I'm still playing BG while I've barely touched the other two.
3. Meaningful dialogue choices and actions that are based on your stats. I think Planescape did this better than any game that I can think of.
As for real-time vs. turn-based, either is fine for me. That said, we've already had a lot of semi real-time RPGs. I actually wouldn't mind a turn-based system at this point. I really enjoyed the turn-based combat in Temple of Elemental Evil (though I didn't care much for the rest of the game). I always thought it was a shame that there aren't more games like that.
1. Persistent world multiplayer support 2. Persistent world multiplayer support 3. Persistent world multiplayer support
Seriously, you don't need to re-invent the wheel. If you just make a solid successor to NWN1/2, you'll attract the thousands of players STILL actively playing those games online on roleplaying worlds. People are clamouring for a replacement, because right now, there's still nothing that can replace NWN on the multiplayer persistent world front.
Single player RPGs are available in spades. Give us something with multiplayer and mods, and let us create our own adventures.
I am afraid that I strongly disagree with this point. There are tons and tons of multiplayer games out there right now, they are everywhere, and I believe that the opposite is true: multiplayer games are available in spades, and single player games are dying out.
I want a single player game. Multiplayer implemented would be fine, but I have no desire for any sort of mmorpg or even a descendant of NWN. NWN and BG are far too different from each other to make a game similar to both. Choose a successor to BG or a successor to NWN or do your on thing; but do NOT try to combine aspects of NWN and BG into one rollout.
1. Persistent worlds - give us a toolset, a DM client and make the game easily moddable. There are thousands of people still playing NWN1 and NWN2 because these are the only games that offer persistent worlds where you can roleplay online with friends.
2. Good writing - For single player, try something new for once? How about making the main character NOT be the chosen one, dragonborn or whatnot games have come up with in the past. Also don't waste billions on voice acting.
3. Don't give too much into player demands. I know it's contradicting to say, but there will always be loud minorities making demands or complaining over silly things. A proper company don't mind some bad reviews, if their base are satisfied. The majority of companies go for 100% positive reviews, try something different.
I am afraid that I strongly disagree with this point. There are tons and tons of multiplayer games out there right now, they are everywhere, and I believe that the opposite is true: multiplayer games are available in spades, and single player games are dying out.
I want a single player game. Multiplayer implemented would be fine, but I have no desire for any sort of mmorpg or even a descendant of NWN. NWN and BG are far too different from each other to make a game similar to both. Choose a successor to BG or a successor to NWN or do your on thing; but do NOT try to combine aspects of NWN and BG into one rollout.
mmos and Persistent Worlds are not the same thing. With a moddable experience, players can create their own modules, where several other players can roleplay. In NWN2's case it was up to 75 players per PW. This allows for a lot of opportunities to make custom servers taking place in different places of Forgotten Realms, or custom settings. These modules work very well for roleplaying purposes.
In mmo you can just grind and pvp, PWs can be much more handcrafted by players, with each their uniqueness.
Provider a certain amount of randomness like the item randomiser does. Randomize traps, locks, and monster groups too.
Agree, as long as it's done in a sensible way. I don't like IWD's system of having you plan ahead with spending proficencies and then not getting the right weapons out of the random loot. I do like knowing that weapon X is *somewhere* in the game, but not knowing where exactly.
Three things huh? Not asking for much: Dialogue options like in Planecape Torment Campanions as well written as those in Dragon Age Inquisition Witcher 3 style quest design with lots of ways to go about it.
Honestly though I think quality of quantity. If that means fewer companions, so be it. If better quest design means few quests, so be it. I'd trade in 100 fetch me 10 widget style quests for 1 quest like the Raedric quest in Pillars of Eternity which had several different approaches and methods of resolving the situation.
I think that goes for RPG's in general though, not just D&D.
Explorations and combat are important too, but get the first 3 things right, and the rest falls into place... hopefully.
Provider a certain amount of randomness like the item randomiser does. Randomize traps, locks, and monster groups too.
Agree, as long as it's done in a sensible way. I don't like IWD's system of having you plan ahead with spending proficencies and then not getting the right weapons out of the random loot. I do like knowing that weapon X is *somewhere* in the game, but not knowing where exactly.
Make the amount of randomness an user option. A slider between 0% (no randomness at all) and 100% (everything is randomized). The item randomizer mod provides such an option.
3. Forging System - I think players should be allowed to create their own weapons/armors/trinkets, progressing up as the player grows stronger and is able to gather more powerful/rare reagents. Who doesn't want handmade +6 epic weapons with options that you chose?
Me. Forging systems deteriorate lore as well as the higher end drops. In games like Skyrim and Inquisition, I rarely use items found in the game because, I (or my forger) can create more powerful weapons then I get off of enemies.
How BG series implements it is better. Either finding hide or items, that a specialist can use to create an above average weapon, or collecting pieces of a lost and forgotten artifact to have a specialist recreate it. This preserves the lore woven into the game and keeps what you find balanced to what can be created for you.
Well if you are a child of god / savior of the world / other super powerful being I don't see why you should not be able to whip out some really good items. Many magical weapons (including really powerful ones like holy avengers) have rather humble origins, and the protagonist is often of much greater power/importance.
The abovementioned problem (not using existing stuff) can be solved by limiting the craftibles to few slots so you cannot fill in every equipment slot with uber powerful crafted stuff.
Comments
- Try to achieve some sort of balances between classes, don't make some super overlord classes and tell people to (ab)use them and deal with it. People should not be discouraged for playing in a "wrong" way. Being faithful with original is good but being faithful for the sake of doing so could potentially make the game unfun when you do not have GM to mediate. Either tune classes so that they are viable no matter what the setup is or enforce a strict roles for each char so that balanced party is recommended. (And personal suggestion here : Get rid of all the contingincies/sequencers/immunities/untargetables, nerf them hard or put more ways to counter them.)
2. Campaign Editors
- Would like to see more player created contents, not the super restricted SCL type dungeon maker but one that would enable players to create entire games and so on.
3. Forging System
- I think players should be allowed to create their own weapons/armors/trinkets, progressing up as the player grows stronger and is able to gather more powerful/rare reagents. Who doesn't want handmade +6 epic weapons with options that you chose?
How BG series implements it is better. Either finding hide or items, that a specialist can use to create an above average weapon, or collecting pieces of a lost and forgotten artifact to have a specialist recreate it. This preserves the lore woven into the game and keeps what you find balanced to what can be created for you.
Edit: Of course I mean without all the bugs and initial camera issues that NWN2 had.
Isometric
Turn Based or Real Time With Pause to simulate
Robust character creation and customization
Big fascinating detailed immersive worlds
Good music
More moddable with better modding tools for rules and world building
Fun balanced gameplay
Better monster/enemy AI
Interesting companions that grow with more friendship/romance options
More class and race diverse companions to make full good and neutral And evil parties
Excellent story with different alignment branches/choices/consequences/endings
More role playing opportunities instead of always fighting monsters
Smart villain with interesting motivation
Player choices to "adventure" freely in different areas ala BG2 Ch2
Player options to do quests in a different order while advancing the story.
More branching dialog options without enforced structure And with different outcomes
Ability checks changing dialogs and outcomes
Multiple ways to resolve quests
Moar Better Dragons
Backstabbing Ferrets with
Gazebos
A very good list. Thanks. I'm going to underline this point: and add that (a) to do it right you need so many side quests that you can forget the main plot and (b) this opportunity should come early. See the popularity of the dungeon be gone mod -- let's get to chapter 2 shall we?
I read J.E. Sawyer's comments on BG chapter 2 and he thought / thinks this chapter is/was a design flaw. For Sawyer, it is better to have a good number of side quests in each chapter and not load them all into one. This is the way that SoD is organized and the way PoE is organized; I'm calling this modern design theory. Chapter 1 -- five or six side quests, optional battles; Chapter 2 -- 6 or 7 side quests, optional battles . . .
But I also think that is why PoE -- the game with superior graphics and a superior story [*] -- doesn't have the same replay value that BG2 does. There are plots I would really like to replay in the PoE city -- but I'm not willing to go through all the other chapters to get there.
Tl;DR -- While PoE has plenty of "free adventure areas" in the form of optional battles it doesn't allow the player to ignore the plot altogether
oh and @Buttercheese -- great find! Thanks for the poem. We agree that villains need to be SMRT to be interesting!
[*] sorry, its true
Obviously they are reading everything here. Hopefully they will work everybody's full suggestions in somewhere but realistically in order to release something you have to acknowledge that you can't do it all.
In the first game pretty much the whole map is open to your level 1 character to explore and find your feet.
Then Import your character the second game as a more seasoned adventurer with a greater purpose.
I would also love to see side quests ala bg2 chapter 2 although it would be nice if it took place at a lull in the story to improve immersion.
I also don't want to see everything perfectly balanced, the combat in the bg series is incredible despite it being a horrendously unbalanced mess.
Concerning crafting: I have nothing in particular against it, but player character(s) should not be experts in everything. Good blacksmith, for example, trains for years and keeps his know-how up by constantly blacksmithing. PC usually does heroish and actionish stuff with like minded companions. All your crafting needs should be fulfilled by experts in crafting matters and they should demand their works worth in gold. Good balance might be if the best craftable items just cost so much that there is not enough money in whole game to fully arm the player (and pro_hisher team if game has one). This also handles the usual problem of money becoming worthless.
And then a suggestion of my own: fewer but better and more important fights. Some sort of dream game of mine would have Planescape good writing for running around and preparing for a battle you know is coming. Perhaps the game has you playing as a leader of mercenary band and you know that village that hired you is about to be attacked by bandits, so you prepare the defenses, handle morale and delegate some minor jobs to your followers. All this affect the grand finale of that quest/chapter/plot when you have great fight against the overwhelming bandit group that being the only fight in that quest/chapter/plot. Compare this to running trough 5 to 10 minor encounters before having a fight against some sort of boss creature (Firkraag's dungeon might be prime example).
Because of this I think we should have maybe more consumable items or required items. Like maybe buying torches and adventuring gear and stuff.
2. Interface similar to the Infinity Engine.
3. Use of skills in dialogue.
Actually, I only care about the first one.
Player can choose what area will he explore. But at some point all choices converge in a twist and aftermath.
Tell the story through the environment design too.
http://photobucket.com/images/feywild town
http://i.imgur.com/5s650.jpg
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u439/Apollonasf/Planes/Feywild2.jpg
http://alexruizart.deviantart.com/art/Fantasy-Environment-3-284332947
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44481/request-for-spell-quickbar-lightning-orb-surge-vortex-scythes-in-sod
2. 3D based engine with similar approach to the Aurora engine, but much better (I really do like isometric for single player only, but I would prefer 3D for a game where people can make their own servers for online play)
3. Toolset, full DM client and Persistent World capability
2. Persistent world multiplayer support
3. Persistent world multiplayer support
Seriously, you don't need to re-invent the wheel. If you just make a solid successor to NWN1/2, you'll attract the thousands of players STILL actively playing those games online on roleplaying worlds. People are clamouring for a replacement, because right now, there's still nothing that can replace NWN on the multiplayer persistent world front.
Single player RPGs are available in spades. Give us something with multiplayer and mods, and let us create our own adventures.
Saemon Havarian and the ability to punish or trick him in some sneaky sadistic way mahahahah
2. Character customization and options. One the reasons why BG2 (and later the first game after it became heavily modded) had such longevity is the sheer number of class/kit/build options. No playthrough is the same. Games like Planescape and FF VII had a bigger impact on me when I first played them, but all these years later I'm still playing BG while I've barely touched the other two.
3. Meaningful dialogue choices and actions that are based on your stats. I think Planescape did this better than any game that I can think of.
As for real-time vs. turn-based, either is fine for me. That said, we've already had a lot of semi real-time RPGs. I actually wouldn't mind a turn-based system at this point. I really enjoyed the turn-based combat in Temple of Elemental Evil (though I didn't care much for the rest of the game). I always thought it was a shame that there aren't more games like that.
I want a single player game. Multiplayer implemented would be fine, but I have no desire for any sort of mmorpg or even a descendant of NWN. NWN and BG are far too different from each other to make a game similar to both. Choose a successor to BG or a successor to NWN or do your on thing; but do NOT try to combine aspects of NWN and BG into one rollout.
2. Good writing - For single player, try something new for once? How about making the main character NOT be the chosen one, dragonborn or whatnot games have come up with in the past. Also don't waste billions on voice acting.
3. Don't give too much into player demands. I know it's contradicting to say, but there will always be loud minorities making demands or complaining over silly things. A proper company don't mind some bad reviews, if their base are satisfied. The majority of companies go for 100% positive reviews, try something different.
In mmo you can just grind and pvp, PWs can be much more handcrafted by players, with each their uniqueness.
Not asking for much:
Dialogue options like in Planecape Torment
Campanions as well written as those in Dragon Age Inquisition
Witcher 3 style quest design with lots of ways to go about it.
Honestly though I think quality of quantity. If that means fewer companions, so be it.
If better quest design means few quests, so be it.
I'd trade in 100 fetch me 10 widget style quests for 1 quest like the Raedric quest in Pillars of Eternity which had several different approaches and methods of resolving the situation.
I think that goes for RPG's in general though, not just D&D.
Explorations and combat are important too, but get the first 3 things right, and the rest falls into place... hopefully.
The abovementioned problem (not using existing stuff) can be solved by limiting the craftibles to few slots so you cannot fill in every equipment slot with uber powerful crafted stuff.