so why are you being a **** about it then? i used to play sonic, loved it (still do), turned out gay.
people like me and trans people even have always been there. we've existed throughout history, but when you play a game you like to pretend we're not real? that's my problem tbh.
what happens when your child turns out to be gay? what are you going to say? will you be supportive or will you just ignore it? don't be a simpleton mate.
This is a prime example why people get annoyed when this nonsense is in games when we hear about it in media all the time. Some people like switching off and just relaxing. I am one of those people.
Political correctness and social justice has no place in a time set aside for a leasure activity when it's thrown at as at all angles during the rest of the day.
no. i'd like to know how my representation in computer games is infringing on someone else's "free time".
@Wesboi do you not respect my right as a fellow human then? or a trans person? do they not deserve the same amount of representation you do? i mean how many of us do you encounter in games opposed to the plethora of other characters
no. i'd like to know how my representation in computer games is infringing on someone else's "free time".
@Wesboi do you not respect my right as a fellow human then? or a trans person? do they not deserve the same amount of representation you do? i mean how many of us do you encounter in games opposed to the plethora of other characters
I don't see many midgets complaining they've been misrepresented as thieving halflings or turnip eating gnomes. Don't know why u have your knickers in a twist about it. Have u complained about lack of trans zombies in black ops?
your role in this fantasy world is not defined by gender (btw. where was gender when rohan needed them?), sex, color, diet, formal edumification or whatever exept one thing: CLASS. In this fantasy world your role is only defined by class. this fantasy world is a game and it doesn't mater really how much you can roleplay lol (or LARP) and how much story mode you can love to romance anomen mmmm... story mode...oh, story mode who needs to play a game when playing a game?? story mode is love, story mode is life... what I am saying just is in this fantasy world everyone can be a Mizhena. Everyone! If Mizhena is a cleric with 3 wisdom ....ummm, no. but if her wisdom is actually 18 or at least 16 then oh, yeah baby, come ere! that simple, get it?
But the funny part begins now. Main stat must be high if you want to actually role-play. Why? Lets imagine that the Order of the moist Radiant Hart just stands there behind your window and you are a perfectly healthy 15 year old wannabe paladin but you have a one little problem intelligence 3. Would you think that the moist members of the radiant hart actually would allow you to join them?? yes, yes they would.
"But the first part of SOD ( the one in those catacoms to defeat the last of Sarevok lietenants) happens just after Sarevok defeat. Then some time passes, quite some time actually, before the refugees and CA become a really problem for CHARNAME.
So time-wise makes sense, imo"
You are right about the first dungeon timing. But Imoen/Charname have a conversation that specifically says (paraphrased) in the palace. "I am so tired I could sleep for a week" Indicating that it is immediately afterwards.
And all that about your stuff being in a chest? And your money being lost? What, you left the dungeon some time ago, didn't ask about your money (to live on) for a few weeks/months or sort out your belongings? Does that indicate a length of time between events in the first dungeon and the actual start of SOD?
You walk outside the palace and BG is full to bursting with refugees which you have had no sign or indication of existing before.
no. i'd like to know how my representation in computer games is infringing on someone else's "free time".
@Wesboi do you not respect my right as a fellow human then? or a trans person? do they not deserve the same amount of representation you do? i mean how many of us do you encounter in games opposed to the plethora of other characters
I don't see many midgets complaining they've been misrepresented as thieving halflings or turnip eating gnomes. Don't know why u have your knickers in a twist about it. Have u complained about lack of trans zombies in black ops?
The only complaining I recall were the ones upset at the inclusion of minorities. I don't remember these forums full of complaints prior to Siege from transgender folk mad about not being represented in an IE games. Instead people, such as yourself, got mad when they were included. So, yes, you & the people mad about inclusion are showing racist tendencies, not the other way around where political correctness invaded games and ruined them. Sometimes peering into the mirror and seeing yourself for what you really are can be hard to do though.
how anybody is approving of anything simples says after his intentionally provocative "minorities will decide what your future is one day, mr. white guy" little outburst is beyond me.
My wife is a minority where we live does it bother us. No. We have far more important things to worry about rather than causing a huge fuss. Bills, day to day issues and what's for dinner are far more important to me than including minorities on a 15 year old game series.
Inclusion is a good thing but sometimes u need a break and that's my whole point. I don't get much me time and I can't be dealing with political correctness.
How is including a transgender character in a D&d game about dragons, monsters, magic, ect ruining "your break"?
Didn't say it was ruining it. It's the how it's thrown in your face along with other issues as a clear social justice blah blah blah. With the amount of exposure we have to the whole social injustice politically correctness do we really need more of it in a game what's designed as a leisure activity.
If it were a brand new game, then there'd be no cause for complaint about whatever some SJW devs chose to include in their product. You could buy it if that was to your taste, or leave it alone if not.
However, when it's an old classic with an established style which does not include explicit SJW totems, then the pre-existing players predictably include some people who aren't enthusiasts for SJW causes, so it's bound to be more controversial if SJWs seize control of development and insert blatant placard-waving tokens for their causes. No-one with an ounce of sense should be surprised to find that some non-SJW pre-existing players will resent their preferred entertainment environment becoming colonised by SJW imperialists. To players who don't enjoy SJW material, it feels like an unwanted intrusion into their personal space.
no. i'd like to know how my representation in computer games is infringing on someone else's "free time".
@Wesboi do you not respect my right as a fellow human then? or a trans person? do they not deserve the same amount of representation you do? i mean how many of us do you encounter in games opposed to the plethora of other characters
I don't see many midgets complaining they've been misrepresented as thieving halflings or turnip eating gnomes. Don't know why u have your knickers in a twist about it. Have u complained about lack of trans zombies in black ops?
The only complaining I recall were the ones upset at the inclusion of minorities. I don't remember these forums full of complaints prior to Siege from transgender folk mad about not being represented in an IE games. Instead people, such as yourself, got mad when they were included. So, yes, you & the people mad about inclusion are showing racist tendencies, not the other way around where political correctness invaded games and ruined them. Sometimes peering into the mirror and seeing yourself for what you really are can be hard to do though.
Didn't have any if these issues when the original bg2 came out. If your happy to be exposed to trans at every opportunity good for u I'm generally pleased for u. I on the other hand remember the game in its original glory when it was first released no social issues just discussions about party setups and theory crafting. That's how games in my opinion should be.
your not exposed to anything at every opportunity. she has 4 lines about the subject and never mentions it again.
And only brings it up when you ask her.
Man...why do so many people need to claim BG as a safe space? It's like "I'm not *minority group* so if I see *minority group* I can't enjoy my game. Please don't allow *minority group* in my game because it is my safe space. If I can't escape to my game where everyone is just like me...well, I'll be unhappy. So sorry *minority group*, I have nothing against you. I just can't be happy if your presence is anywhere near my safe space. Even seeing you ruins that. So go find your own games. You don't belong in mine."
even before beam dog brought the series back modders have made characters that were bi/gay. no one complains about some of those npc mods, heck some are still being made in this very forum. but because it's an official product people need to complain that people ruined their franchise.
which i find hilarious as alot of beamdog's staff are modders.
even before beam dog brought the series back modders have made characters that were bi/gay. no one complains about some of those npc mods, heck some are still being made in this very forum. but because it's an official product people need to complain that people ruined their franchise.
which i find hilarious as alot of beamdog's staff are modders.
Those user made mods was optional installs. SoD is paid content. A bit of huge difference there if beamdog made there own original game they can add whatever content they like.
even before beam dog brought the series back modders have made characters that were bi/gay. no one complains about some of those npc mods, heck some are still being made in this very forum. but because it's an official product people need to complain that people ruined their franchise.
which i find hilarious as alot of beamdog's staff are modders.
Those user made mods was optional installs. SoD is paid content. A bit of huge difference there if beamdog made there own original game they can add whatever content they like.
SoD=Optional Install Don't like paid content, don't buy it...
And they made a game, with the blessing of the company that owns it, the help of the people who made the originals, and using original notes. The CREATOR of the setting gave his blessing and said that the issue you don't like isn't actually an issue.
Tell me...why is your need for a safe space equaling games having to be made the way you want? Isn't the people mentioned above the people Beamdog had to report to, rather than you?
I, as many here know, think Charname was a dwarf. It's my headcanon. It's how I played the games. Beamdog didn't make the game that way. And you know what? I'm ok with that. Because I don't get to tell them what belongs in their game. He does.
Here is what the person who created Faerun has to say:
“I am saddened by what I hear of the current kerfluffle raging about Siege of Dragonspear and the trans character Amber Scott designed and included in it.
Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. How underscored this was by TSR and later Wizards varied over time, and was always softpedaled, because D&D wasn’t a sex game, and we generally don’t rub the reader’s nose in sex unless there’s a good in-story reason for it.
But even deities have changed gender, sometimes for good, and the servants of deities (Elminster, in ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE) have sometimes been forced by the deity to “spend time as the other” to learn what life is like.
So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. With that said, I’ve never met a gamer yet who doesn’t tinker with every adventure to “make it their own” at their own gaming table, so if trans, LGBT, or sexual matters at all don’t suit your tastes and needs in your gaming sessions, leave it out or change it.
But D&D has half-orcs, and half-dragons, and half-elves, and has magic items that specifically change gender, right there in the rules. Surely, if you can handle the basic notion of cross-SPECIES sex, having a full variety of gender roles should be something that doesn’t blow your mind. If it’s not for you, that’s fine. I hate wearing certain shades of yellow. But I don’t scream and yell at someone I see wearing those shades of yellow, and call them names, and threaten things. My right to dislike yellow applies to me; it doesn’t extend to others. Because somehow, through an incredible oversight on the part of the universe that still hasn’t been rectified, no one made me a god. (I’m still crushed.)”
“And another thing: I have always felt HONOURED to have met, worked with, and enjoyed the work of so many talented women in all of my professional fields (library work has traditionally been dominated by females, gaming hasn’t, and fiction-writing was male-dominated when I was young, but has steadily shifted throughout my lifetime). Does Paul Jaquays becoming Jennell Jaquays rob his, now her, artwork or game design or prose of one iota of its richness and the enjoyment it gives me? NO! And how by the Nine flaming Hells does one human being made happier by being the gender they prefer to be lessen my own security, or happiness, or make my life the less?
Sheesh.
The world has REAL problems, people. Telling someone else how to behave in bed (or dress, or what jobs they can hold down) isn’t one of them. Or shouldn’t be.”
There you go. Faerun isn't *yours*. It doesn't matter if it is your safe space. It doesn't matter if you don't want to see certain minorities in a game you buy. Because it isn't your game. It isn't your world. You are a customer. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Don't like a mod? Don't download it. Don't like a game? Don't buy it.
But don't come here and tell everyone that game developers have to censors themselves because of your "political correctness."
And yes, what you are doing is demanding political correctness. Including characters that you don't like hurts your feelings, so game developers have to stay out of your safe space so you can enjoy the game.
I'm sorry. Really sorry. But that isn't how the world works. So stop demanding that everyone follow your brand of political correctness.
If you really feel strongly, make a mod. Take out content you don't like. Or don't buy the game. Just don't demand others to follow only what you want and only what you deem as appropriate.
I paid money for a product. Said product didn't meet my expectations and I feel the SJW content didn't sit right with the rest of the series in my opinion. Obviously having a different opinion upsets many of the white knights who spring to action the moment any social injustice is seen.
I paid money for a product. Said product didn't meet my expectations and I feel the SJW content didn't sit right with the rest of the series in my opinion. Obviously having a different opinion upsets many of the white knights who spring to action the moment any social injustice is seen.
Or how about this. You paid money. You saw a minority. You didn't like said minority. So you are complaining that the minority shouldn't be in the series because it doesn't match *your* vision of what escapism should be.
I'm so very sorry that two sentences of lines from an NPC has triggered you like this. I highly recommend that instead of complaining about SJWs and White Knights and whatnot...you either don't buy games that can so easily trigger you, mod games you don't like...or just don't click on the one optional NPC's completely optional dialogue choice.
What I don't recommend is trying to enforce your headcanon.
And by the way, what is a SJW and what is a White Knight? I never heard these terms until the Mizhena shitstorm, and people like you keep using them like they are bad words. As far as I can tell, the first seems to mean "someone who thinks that everyone can have a seat at the table without being told to leave" and the latter is "someone who calls out douchiness when it is targeted towards minorities".
is it annoyingly obvious or easily dismissed and not a hinder to enjoyment?
It's pretty easy to ignore. Mizhena only says 4 sentences about her history, and that's only if you ask her twice--in fact, talking to her in the first place is optional.
The only other part of the game that remotely concerns social justice, or any modern political issue, is the refugee crisis in Baldur's Gate, but the game expresses multiple conflicting viewpoints about the issue, and your dialogue options can express any viewpoint or none at all. Or you can ignore it; those little side quests are optional.
Most of the game, including all of the main quest dialogue, has nothing to do with politics. It's a D&D game, not a lecture.
All I said is that all the political correctness doesn't belong in a the current story arc. In my opinion. That is all. Suddenly I'm a poster boy for mass hate/racism. So your all saying I'm wrong I don't enjoy anything and other wall of texts about how I'm an awful person.
The opinions I have are only about the game doesn't reflect anything in real life.
This original games are nearly 15 years olds and have totally different styles of writing and tones. Then the overall writing style of SoD throws it out the window. It just seems odd the tone and general feel of SoD it doesn't compare to BG1/2
i'd really like if we could discuses siege more then just the same three topics. every single time a thread comes up talking about the game first it's you know what. then it goes to that comment amber made about safana and it just stays there and we never go any further.
i'd really like if we could discuses siege more then just the same three topics. every single time a thread comes up talking about the game first it's you know what. then it goes to that comment amber made about safana and it just stays there and we never go any further.
I generally didn't think much of it reminded me of icewind dale with the battles. Doubt I'll run it again. Should of explored or added more story into bg2ee as in refugees/slave trades and explored more into that to add an extra link but meh.
i'd really like if we could discuses siege more then just the same three topics. every single time a thread comes up talking about the game first it's you know what. then it goes to that comment amber made about safana and it just stays there and we never go any further.
I generally didn't think much of it reminded me of icewind dale with the battles. Doubt I'll run it again. Should of explored or added more story into bg2ee as in refugees/slave trades and explored more into that to add an extra link but meh.
All I said is that all the political correctness doesn't belong in a the current story arc. In my opinion. That is all. Suddenly I'm a poster boy for mass hate/racism. So your all saying I'm wrong I don't enjoy anything and other wall of texts about how I'm an awful person.
The opinions I have are only about the game doesn't reflect anything in real life.
This original games are nearly 15 years olds and have totally different styles of writing and tones. Then the overall writing style of SoD throws it out the window. It just seems odd the tone and general feel of SoD it doesn't compare to BG1/2
End of discussion.
Yet Vicconia's symbolism of racism that exists invading the game (and numerous other art imitating life examples such as wars being fought for political gain) 15 year's ago was just fine and in no way imitates real life issues? Where as the inclusion of a transgender character with 4 lines is SJW crusade that is to much realism in your view? Interesting.
I paid money for a product. Said product didn't meet my expectations and I feel the SJW content didn't sit right with the rest of the series in my opinion. Obviously having a different opinion upsets many of the white knights who spring to action the moment any social injustice is seen.
I'm curious @Wesboi, have you ever played a Paladin class charname? Your negative comment of others acting like white knights and the way you object to bring RL into your game world should make it difficult for you to impersonate a paladin then I guess.
Comments
Political correctness and social justice has no place in a time set aside for a leasure activity when it's thrown at as at all angles during the rest of the day.
@Wesboi do you not respect my right as a fellow human then? or a trans person? do they not deserve the same amount of representation you do? i mean how many of us do you encounter in games opposed to the plethora of other characters
ok
your role in this fantasy world is not defined by gender (btw. where was gender when rohan needed them?), sex, color, diet, formal edumification or whatever exept one thing: CLASS. In this fantasy world your role is only defined by class. this fantasy world is a game and it doesn't mater really how much you can roleplay lol (or LARP) and how much story mode you can love to romance anomen mmmm... story mode...oh, story mode who needs to play a game when playing a game?? story mode is love, story mode is life...
what I am saying just is in this fantasy world everyone can be a Mizhena. Everyone! If Mizhena is a cleric with 3 wisdom ....ummm, no. but if her wisdom is actually 18 or at least 16 then oh, yeah baby, come ere! that simple, get it?
But the funny part begins now. Main stat must be high if you want to actually role-play. Why? Lets imagine that the Order of the moist Radiant Hart just stands there behind your window and you are a perfectly healthy 15 year old wannabe paladin but you have a one little problem intelligence 3. Would you think that the moist members of the radiant hart actually would allow you to join them??
yes, yes they would.
"But the first part of SOD ( the one in those catacoms to defeat the last of Sarevok lietenants) happens just after Sarevok defeat. Then some time passes, quite some time actually, before the refugees and CA become a really problem for CHARNAME.
So time-wise makes sense, imo"
You are right about the first dungeon timing.
But Imoen/Charname have a conversation that specifically says (paraphrased) in the palace.
"I am so tired I could sleep for a week"
Indicating that it is immediately afterwards.
And all that about your stuff being in a chest? And your money being lost?
What, you left the dungeon some time ago, didn't ask about your money (to live on) for a few weeks/months or sort out your belongings?
Does that indicate a length of time between events in the first dungeon and the actual start of SOD?
You walk outside the palace and BG is full to bursting with refugees which you have had no sign or indication of existing before.
I see this is your first comment on this forum, so I ask you to read the site rules. You can't attack people and groups of people in your comments.
When debating, tell arguments against a certain point of view, not against a certain poster or a group of people.
Also, it would be good if everyone read the OP here - https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/26717/a-quick-note-about-disagreement/p1.
Inclusion is a good thing but sometimes u need a break and that's my whole point. I don't get much me time and I can't be dealing with political correctness.
However, when it's an old classic with an established style which does not include explicit SJW totems, then the pre-existing players predictably include some people who aren't enthusiasts for SJW causes, so it's bound to be more controversial if SJWs seize control of development and insert blatant placard-waving tokens for their causes. No-one with an ounce of sense should be surprised to find that some non-SJW pre-existing players will resent their preferred entertainment environment becoming colonised by SJW imperialists. To players who don't enjoy SJW material, it feels like an unwanted intrusion into their personal space.
Man...why do so many people need to claim BG as a safe space? It's like "I'm not *minority group* so if I see *minority group* I can't enjoy my game. Please don't allow *minority group* in my game because it is my safe space. If I can't escape to my game where everyone is just like me...well, I'll be unhappy. So sorry *minority group*, I have nothing against you. I just can't be happy if your presence is anywhere near my safe space. Even seeing you ruins that. So go find your own games. You don't belong in mine."
which i find hilarious as alot of beamdog's staff are modders.
Don't like paid content, don't buy it...
And they made a game, with the blessing of the company that owns it, the help of the people who made the originals, and using original notes. The CREATOR of the setting gave his blessing and said that the issue you don't like isn't actually an issue.
Tell me...why is your need for a safe space equaling games having to be made the way you want? Isn't the people mentioned above the people Beamdog had to report to, rather than you?
I, as many here know, think Charname was a dwarf. It's my headcanon. It's how I played the games. Beamdog didn't make the game that way. And you know what? I'm ok with that. Because I don't get to tell them what belongs in their game. He does.
Here is what the person who created Faerun has to say:
“I am saddened by what I hear of the current kerfluffle raging about Siege of Dragonspear and the trans character Amber Scott designed and included in it.
Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. How underscored this was by TSR and later Wizards varied over time, and was always softpedaled, because D&D wasn’t a sex game, and we generally don’t rub the reader’s nose in sex unless there’s a good in-story reason for it.
But even deities have changed gender, sometimes for good, and the servants of deities (Elminster, in ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE) have sometimes been forced by the deity to “spend time as the other” to learn what life is like.
So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. With that said, I’ve never met a gamer yet who doesn’t tinker with every adventure to “make it their own” at their own gaming table, so if trans, LGBT, or sexual matters at all don’t suit your tastes and needs in your gaming sessions, leave it out or change it.
But D&D has half-orcs, and half-dragons, and half-elves, and has magic items that specifically change gender, right there in the rules. Surely, if you can handle the basic notion of cross-SPECIES sex, having a full variety of gender roles should be something that doesn’t blow your mind. If it’s not for you, that’s fine. I hate wearing certain shades of yellow. But I don’t scream and yell at someone I see wearing those shades of yellow, and call them names, and threaten things. My right to dislike yellow applies to me; it doesn’t extend to others. Because somehow, through an incredible oversight on the part of the universe that still hasn’t been rectified, no one made me a god. (I’m still crushed.)”
“And another thing: I have always felt HONOURED to have met, worked with, and enjoyed the work of so many talented women in all of my professional fields (library work has traditionally been dominated by females, gaming hasn’t, and fiction-writing was male-dominated when I was young, but has steadily shifted throughout my lifetime). Does Paul Jaquays becoming Jennell Jaquays rob his, now her, artwork or game design or prose of one iota of its richness and the enjoyment it gives me? NO! And how by the Nine flaming Hells does one human being made happier by being the gender they prefer to be lessen my own security, or happiness, or make my life the less?
Sheesh.
The world has REAL problems, people. Telling someone else how to behave in bed (or dress, or what jobs they can hold down) isn’t one of them. Or shouldn’t be.”
There you go. Faerun isn't *yours*. It doesn't matter if it is your safe space. It doesn't matter if you don't want to see certain minorities in a game you buy. Because it isn't your game. It isn't your world. You are a customer. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Don't like a mod? Don't download it.
Don't like a game? Don't buy it.
But don't come here and tell everyone that game developers have to censors themselves because of your "political correctness."
And yes, what you are doing is demanding political correctness. Including characters that you don't like hurts your feelings, so game developers have to stay out of your safe space so you can enjoy the game.
I'm sorry. Really sorry. But that isn't how the world works. So stop demanding that everyone follow your brand of political correctness.
If you really feel strongly, make a mod. Take out content you don't like. Or don't buy the game. Just don't demand others to follow only what you want and only what you deem as appropriate.
I'm so very sorry that two sentences of lines from an NPC has triggered you like this. I highly recommend that instead of complaining about SJWs and White Knights and whatnot...you either don't buy games that can so easily trigger you, mod games you don't like...or just don't click on the one optional NPC's completely optional dialogue choice.
What I don't recommend is trying to enforce your headcanon.
And by the way, what is a SJW and what is a White Knight? I never heard these terms until the Mizhena shitstorm, and people like you keep using them like they are bad words. As far as I can tell, the first seems to mean "someone who thinks that everyone can have a seat at the table without being told to leave" and the latter is "someone who calls out douchiness when it is targeted towards minorities".
To answer a question we've wandered away from: It's pretty easy to ignore. Mizhena only says 4 sentences about her history, and that's only if you ask her twice--in fact, talking to her in the first place is optional.
The only other part of the game that remotely concerns social justice, or any modern political issue, is the refugee crisis in Baldur's Gate, but the game expresses multiple conflicting viewpoints about the issue, and your dialogue options can express any viewpoint or none at all. Or you can ignore it; those little side quests are optional.
Most of the game, including all of the main quest dialogue, has nothing to do with politics. It's a D&D game, not a lecture.
The opinions I have are only about the game doesn't reflect anything in real life.
This original games are nearly 15 years olds and have totally different styles of writing and tones. Then the overall writing style of SoD throws it out the window.
It just seems odd the tone and general feel of SoD it doesn't compare to BG1/2
End of discussion.