@Skatan@Sunder I have a different opinion to both and here you are hounding me for not liking the game and my opinions on it. Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind.
Have I said your opinions are wrong or that u have to change the way you are. Nope. You just have to accept that everyone has the free will to think what they want. I think SoD is average for multiple reasons and you're just picking the reason what's easily picked up on. What about the recycled content or the more is harder style of battles which I've mentioned multiple times.
@wesboi, hounding? I just asked a question, relevant IMHO since it was just your own opinion which you stated previously here turned back to you. But it's ok, it was partly in jest so I don't expect a proper answer.
Do I object to Mizhena in Game? No. Do I object to having to care about her stupid name? Yes. It arises from nowhere for no reason.
That's where the writing fails.
You don't have to ask her about her name. You can not care and not ask about it. After you ask her about it once, and she says she created it herself, you're given the option to not care again. You can choose to leave the conversation entirely or you can choose to move on to another topic without inquiring any further about her name. You have to ask about her name again before she talks about being transgender.
You're not forced to care about her name. It's an optional dialog choice from an optional NPC.
I don't see why it is a problem to put social or political issues in a game such as this. Ok a game or videogame is leisure time and maybe a player don't desire to put his mind in these things when he or she does just want to play. But imo, games can be a useful to get a person to think about these issues, at least. Besides the game does not force the issues on you. The game wants you to roleplay.
You don't care about refugees? Fine, ignore them. You don't care about transgender?, or you want to understand them? Ok, choose the dialogue accordingly. These social problems were also in the original BG1, with the racial issues of nps towards Viconia or Drizzt. In BG2, there is an entire quest about slavery, and indeed is a social issues of these days as well.
OK the writing doesn't allow every possibility, but how could it? The writers did what they thought was the best, and imo they did a very good job. The writing could have been done better? Of course, everything could have been done better.
So in dont get all this noise. It is a roleplaying game. Roleplay.
i mean it all comes down to what your own view of the world is and obviously if your world is very straight and very white,
Really the "white" argument here? I didn't want to comment in this useless thread but this is too much.
Wesboi criticizing the hamfisted shoehorning of minorities has nothing to do with being "pro-white". Since when is the caucasian race a bad thing anyway? Are you a racist to caucasians or is white just the new progressive buzzword of the day?
people like me and trans people even have always been there. we've existed throughout history, but when you play a game you like to pretend we're not real? that's my problem tbh.
Your existance is irrelevant depending on the the lore of the game (so is mine).
Regardless the problem is when people "like you" try to white-knight champion a community you are not part of and end up just making them look bad. Most trans gamers I have heard of in various forums hate how beamdog tried to represent them as a token.
However some post above is not clearly breaking the forum rules, but it's not far from flaming or trolling. You are free to share your opinion on the forum, but we ask you to do that in a respectful manner and try to not anger other forum users, unintentionally or not.
Do I object to Mizhena in Game? No. Do I object to having to care about her stupid name? Yes. It arises from nowhere for no reason.
That's where the writing fails.
You don't have to ask her about her name. You can not care and not ask about it. After you ask her about it once, and she says she created it herself, you're given the option to not care again. You can choose to leave the conversation entirely or you can choose to move on to another topic without inquiring any further about her name. You have to ask about her name again before she talks about being transgender.
You're not forced to care about her name. It's an optional dialog choice from an optional NPC.
You miss my point. It's a stupid name that arouses no interest, has no recognisible resonance, yet for some reason it has dialog choices attached.
Better writing would have come up with a name that prompted the interest. Somebody mentioned there is a character in another game called "Pox" or maybe "Plague", it makes sense to ask about that as a name.
Once again poor writing is being defended by saying there is player agency to overlook the poor writing.
And once again, as it was mentioned in another thread, there's no English, or French, or Chinese in Faerun. And not all players are native English speakers. Why the in-game events and characters must be undertandable only in English?
For me personally the name "Mizhena" makes much sense to ask about that as a name, just as Pox in PST.
In Russian, "zhena" - "жена" means a wife, and going deeper in times, it originates from "zhenshina" - "женщина", which means "woman". While "Mi" at the start is associated with M in "muzchina", which means "man".
I know that is the same for other eastern european languages.
I would bring another example here.
Yoshimo. This means nothing in English. But in Chinese it means "cat". So people immediately associate Yoshimo with a far-east. And yes, much more people in the world know and recognize Chinese than Russian. But the nature of these names stay the same. And yes, you can say that Yoshimo hails from Kara-Tur, a region roughly, but not precisely, equivalent to 14th-15th century China/Japan. But there's a Russia-like region in Faerun, - Rashemen (and Minsc is pronounced as the capital of Belarus).
So I will never see the poor writing in this name, I will never see a stupid name here. Instead I, personally, immediately saw that the name Mizhena makes sense, considering her story.
From what you are saying, the name translates as "man-wife" or "man-woman" into English from Russian? Which could well prompt a question about origins.
And if Russian is the inspiration for the name because of what it means in Russian, why the answer about letters from different languages that mean something to her?
Yoshimo, doesn't mean anything in English, but "Yoshi" had at the time become well known from the Mario Bros. I would say that's far more the inspiration for the name than the Chinese for cat. And well known enough to be associated with the region which was the writers' intent.
Minsc, obvious, and works the same way.
Those two examples work surely both in English, Russian and other languages because they reference globally known names. People, regardless of language spoken, get the message.
So I will never see the poor writing in this name, I will never see a stupid name here. Instead I, personally, immediately saw that the name Mizhena makes sense, considering her story.
What story?
"I was born a dude, but I want to be a chick. So one day I decided to wear a dress and everyone supported me yay! Btw I made up my name from different languages cause I felt like it."
That is literally her entire storyline. She doesn't talk about why she chose a non-magic transition, why she is a Tempus cleric or anything regarding her name by languages. No fleshing out, no questing, no party-joining, no dialogue options, no romance... just an abrupt confession with an abrupt end from a strange "minor" cleric merchant. I call it bad/lazy writing (aka tokenism).
I think Yoshimo would mean cat in Japanese, not Chinese (though I think it probably still came from Yoshi the Mario character). Chinese would be mao (猫). Yoshi in Chinese would be youxi (游戏), which means game.
For what it's worth, people in D&D speak Common, not English, so naturally these names would sound different to them. Minsc would not necessarily seem like a meaningful name at all to a person in Faerun, because there is no Minsk and no Belarus in the Forgotten Realms. Mizhena could just as easily sound interesting or strange to someone in Faerun as Minsc or Yoshimo, because Faerunian names, unlike the Common tongue, aren't translated into English. Otherwise they'd have names like Crazy Horse instead of Thaxll'ssillyia--usually, across RL cultures, names have clear meanings, but English incorporates a lot of foreign names whose meanings are little known (Brian means "hill," but that's not well-known).
In a word, just because a name sounds normal or unusual to us doesn't mean it sounds normal or unusual to people in a different universe (Faerun) speaking a different language (Common).
But again, we're still talking about Mizhena, even though it's just rehashing the same arguments we've all read a hundred times before.
To me, not all things should be so openly obvious. In each story and a game there're hidden mysteries, hidded easter eggs, hidden details that readers and players should find out themselves.
In the 12th century there was a monk called John Irenicus who was condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as a heretic.
1166 A council met under the presidency of the emperor Manuel Comnenus to address the interpretation of John 14.28: “My father is greater than I.” Demetrius of Lampe, a Roman (Byzantine) diplomat recently returned from the West, raised the issue to the emperor’s attention. Demetrius ridiculed the way the verse was interpreted there: Christ was inferior to his father in his humanity, but equal in his divinity. The emperor thought the Western interpretation made good sense. Eventually, he called a council to settle the matter. The council met on March 2. The following anathemas were directed against Constantine the Bulgarian, formerly Metropolitan of Corfu, and John Irenicus, by a synod in 1166. They are included in the Synodicon of Orthodoxy (see year 842).
(38) Constantine the Bulgarian, who says that “My father is greater than I” refers only to Christ's human nature, taken in abstraction; whereas the Fathers use such an abstraction only to explain statements implying servitude or ignorance, and explain the statement "My father is greater than I" in various ways, one of which is that the statement refers to the fact that Christ's human nature retained its properties in the hypostatic union; (39) those who agree with Constantine of Bulgaria; (40) John Irenicus, who held the same view.
Irenicus has become a just a name for many gamers, they don't look for any extra meaning in it. Mizhena stays as just a name for many gamers as well, but if people really begin wondering what sense does it have, they can find an answer.
So I will never see the poor writing in this name, I will never see a stupid name here. Instead I, personally, immediately saw that the name Mizhena makes sense, considering her story.
What story?
"I was born a dude, but I want to be a chick. So one day I decided to wear a dress and everyone supported me yay! Btw I made up my name from different languages cause I felt like it."
That is literally her entire storyline. She doesn't talk about why she chose a non-magic transition, why she is a Tempus cleric or anything regarding her name by languages. No fleshing out, no questing, no party-joining, no dialogue options, no romance... just an abrupt confession with an abrupt end from a strange "minor" cleric merchant. I call it bad/lazy writing (aka tokenism).
Just as I said in the other thread, introduction of Mizhena and the amount of lines she has to tell her story is no different from introduction of Pox in PST.
In the comment you quoted I replied to UnderstandMouseMagic on the subject of her name.
You're sayng that it's a big thing Mizhena 1) isn't fleshed out, doesn't have 2) questing, 3) party-joining, 4) dialogue options, 5) romance. Let's look at these points, although it has been done several times already.
1) this character doesn't differ much from any other merchant/cleric/minor NPC you meet in Baldur's Gate in terms of the number of lines she has. Again, her introduction is standard for IE games. There was no particular reason to make it different just only because of her sex. So this argument is invalid.
With the next patch Mizhena will be more "fleshed out", though. It's a decision by the company and is in the same line new content is appearing with some patches.
2) Mizhena is involved in several quests in SoD, one of them defining one of the factors the folks in Baldur's Gate will believe your main character in the end. So this argument is not valid at all.
3) If you request to make Mizhena an NPC who can enter your party, then this request is no different to request to make other NPCs joinable, in BG1, BG2 and SoD. There're tons of NPCs who fans would like to see in their party, and there can be no evidence Mizhena is somehow different. Why, for example, there're no joinable good dwarfs in BG2? So this argument is invalid as well.
4) As covered in my comment about Pox from PST, and as covered by many posters on this forum about other minor NPCs in BG1 and BG2, dialogue options of Mizhena are no particularly short or abrupt. So this argument is invalid, again.
5) If you request to make Mizhena romanceable, than, just as in the case of joinable NPCs, this request is no different to request to make other NPCs romanceable. I'm sure there're people who want to romance NPCs who are party members but not romanceable. Think about Alora. And I'm sure there're people who want to romance minor NPCs. Think about Delainy from the Werefolves island. There was no particular reason to make Mizhena romanceable just only because of her sex.
All in all, it's OK to wish for more content for Mizhena. But it's just like it's OK to wish for more content for the Hidden, for example (yay, a romanceable Illithid NPC).
Or for Tamoko. Why can't we take her to the party?
It's OK to wish for a mod to make Mizhena a joinable NPC, even a romanceable figure.
But it's not OK to DEMAND that exactly one NPC should have the same amount of content as Jaheira, Aerie or Edwin.
It's the decision which is being made by developers during the game creating process.
And it's not OK to constantly accuse writers of not doing this and not that. Because, actually, there's a myriad of things you can accuse writers of any product, of any movie, game, or even a book, of not doing the way you want it. All people are different and have their own views. It's normal.
1) this character doesn't differ much from any other merchant/cleric/minor NPC you meet in Baldur's Gate in terms of the number of lines she has. Again, her introduction is standard for IE games. There was no particular reason to make it different just only because of her sex. So this argument is invalid. With the next patch Mizhena will be more "fleshed out", though. It's a decision by the company and is in the same line new content is appearing with some patches.
Seems beamdog agrees with my "invalid" way of thinking and disagrees with you
The character does differ from other minor characters, being the first trans by choice character in BG saga history. Like it or not, we don't yet live in a world where a trans doesn't stand out. Expecting all criticism/praise to be amplified on any standout character is a no-brainer
2) Mizhena is involved in several quests in SoD, one of them defining one of the factors the folks in Baldur's Gate will believe your main character in the end. So this argument is not valid at all.
Quests about HER (him?), not about the Hero of Baldur's gate. Perhaps giving her some of Safana's "empowerment"?
3) If you request to make Mizhena an NPC who can enter your party, then this request is no different to request to make other NPCs joinable, in BG1, BG2 and SoD. There're tons of NPCs who fans would like to see in their party, and there can be no evidence Mizhena is somehow different. Why, for example, there're no joinable good dwarfs in BG2? So this argument is invalid as well.
Yet again mysteriously forgetting the one major difference between Mizhena and every other NPC in BG history. You have a much bigger reason to make Mizhena joinable though. Much of the criticism, so called "hatred", dissatisfaction etc leading to inevitable profit loss may have been avoided by doing this simple change I am willing to bet on it. Heck beamdog didn't even have to do it themselves, just provide fans some incentive and they will do it for free.
Sounds smarter than what actually happened demonizing the audience as "transphobic bigots" and inevitably losing customers.
4) As covered in my comment about Pox from PST, and as covered by many posters on this forum about other minor NPCs in BG1 and BG2, dialogue options of Mizhena are no particularly short or abrupt. So this argument is invalid, again.
I have no idea about a pox or a pst btw (or I just suck at abbreviations?). What I can say is that no other npc (well except the ones in Nashkel) comes out of the closet lets then gives you no way of answering back other then "wow nice". Heck even the Nashkel closet dialogue allows an evil option and they are minor as hell.
So I guess this makes your argument Invalid? I just had to say that since you love labeling everything you disagree with as invalid lol To sum up everything else you have said:
- Point 5) is covered by point 1). - Tamoko was Sarevok's companion not yours, aka the enemy. Nor is Tamoko unique (Cynthea or whatever her name was is very similar to Tamoko) - Yes it is OK to make demands, NPC changes, requests and criticism. If they are listened to it or not is another story entirely. - Yes it is OK to accuse writers of doing XYZABC. All people have different views and tastes, however objectively there is a way and means of doing things that will appeal to most and gain the most productivity and profits. It is usually called "common sense"
Seems Beamdog has listened to people like me, rather than just the beamdog fans here. Trent's speech, the Minsc line removal and the new patch is all positive in my eyes. One small step in my ideal direction at the very least.
"Sounds smarter than what actually happened demonizing the audience as "transphobic bigots" and inevitably losing customers." Except that this perfectly describes a vast majority of the people I've seen complaining about it.
When did Beamdog use the phrase "transphobic bigots?" It's certainly nowhere in this thread.
Seriously? Need me to be 100% literal? *sigh* fine I accept the bait..
1) "Transphobic/bigot/combination of both/dinosaur/white/misogynist/other buzzwords" etc has already been used by beamdog fanboys, reviewers, bloggers, journos etc to dismiss dialogue criticism. So if you want to be technical, those are the culprits
2) However a former staffer who I shall not mention took the insulting of anyone critical of dialogue to a whole new level much worse than any holier-than-thou labellers imo by simply showing lack of care "If people don’t like that, then too bad" ....The person who said this probably has a charisma of 3
3) Beamdog on the other hand isn't dumb enough to be so overt/insane, that will be business suicide. However they still dismissed dialogue criticism at first with some subtle rosy virtue signalling "I find the controversy ridiculous. Yes, we have a transgendered character. I know a number of transgendered people and they are genuine, wonderful humans" ....Yes let's ignore potential bad writing for anyone who might be wonderful human beings!
All 3 instances were quite demonizing of the audience, yay for the useless history lesson. You already know of this @semiticgod so I have no idea why the question was even asked?
For the record I am trying my best to convince people who are salty about those 3 instances to give beamdog a chance and buy SoD since their outcry didn't fall on deaf ears. Some positive changes have already been made and the upcoming patch also sounds promising. I read something interesting regarding Mizhena intentions from another website I will post it here later. For now I need an aspirin this thread is cancer >.>
To help out the OP the content is average at best, will only get 2 playthroughs out of it from the good/evil point of view then probably skip like chateau irencus.
Honestly, i didn't play SoD yet, and if i would have to make the decision on the opinion of other people, i would neither play it in the future. Fortunatley i saw the following two videos multiple time, and eager to try the game out since the first time.
if you want to be technical, those are the culprits
Yes, that's what I was getting at.
God knows this subject is vulnerable to generalizations. You've pointed this out yourself: in your case, the generalization you want to call attention to is the notion that all of Mizhena's critics are just "transphobic bigots." I agree that that's a wild oversimplification, and that it doesn't really contribute to the conversation.
But I don't want Mizhena's defenders to be stereotyped, either. We're not all loud-mouthed PC police and we don't all throw around wild accusations of prejudice. I don't know about the rest of the places you've been, but around here, basically none of Mizhena's defenders act that way. Same goes for Mizhena's critics around here. In general, Mizhena debates on this forum are relatively civil compared to the rest of the web.
That said, I do find it distressing that we keep circling back to this same subject. Over and over, it degenerates into the same old thing: instead of being a discussion where people try to contribute, it's a debate that people try to win.
All this controversy ever seems to do is make people unhappy.
To help out the OP the content is average at best, will only get 2 playthroughs out of it from the good/evil point of view then probably skip like chateau irencus.
/close thread.
I thought certain things were just as decent as anything seen in Bg1 and bg2, though overall I agree it's not as good as those two.
More use of mental attributes in dialog that could sometimes change the outcome of a quest. While in the original saga there are perhaps only a handful of these for Wisdom and Intelligence. While Charisma and the reputation system has always been an annoyance, both for roleplaying purposes and gameplay, especially when playing evil. SoD didn't improve on that, but I doubt they could either.
The random special encounters are actually pretty unique and clever..Especially the dead magic zone encounter.
Zaviaks vision quest itself limits you to three charges, while there are like 8-10 of them you can spawn. There is replay value there..Unless you reload between each, but that could done in any rpg really.
Overall the expansion is pretty linear, so i agree there isn't quite as much fun to be had with replays..But the same could be said for Tales of the sword coast and Throne of Bhaal.
To help out the OP the content is average at best, will only get 2 playthroughs out of it from the good/evil point of view then probably skip like chateau irencus.
/close thread.
Always love when people state their opinion, declare it to be fact, and try to end the conversation.
At least I have the tact not to talk out of my arse then sign off accusing others of being cancer when I'm out of arguments. As for my lack of input, I'll simply quote a much wiser man:
Accusing others? Who exactly? I clearly said the thread was cancer/useless, I would never call an individual or group of people that.
You say I am "out of arguments"? I have written mountains of text ffs and will continue that so how on earth did you come up with such a bizarre conclusion!? ......I even specifically said I will be back later (aka I need to sleep/relax). Obviously not something I would say if I was "out of arguments" as I would just permanently leave the thread if was?
Maybe just go back to facepalming yourself until you have something more constructive to add?
**edit: grum is right in his post below, I shouldn't fight fire with fire (I wasn't offended or anything but it is annoying). Tried my best to edit this post to be a little less trollish.**
Comments
Have I said your opinions are wrong or that u have to change the way you are. Nope. You just have to accept that everyone has the free will to think what they want. I think SoD is average for multiple reasons and you're just picking the reason what's easily picked up on. What about the recycled content or the more is harder style of battles which I've mentioned multiple times.
No.
Do I object to having to care about her stupid name?
Yes.
It arises from nowhere for no reason.
That's where the writing fails.
You're not forced to care about her name. It's an optional dialog choice from an optional NPC.
Besides the game does not force the issues on you. The game wants you to roleplay.
You don't care about refugees? Fine, ignore them.
You don't care about transgender?, or you want to understand them? Ok, choose the dialogue accordingly.
These social problems were also in the original BG1, with the racial issues of nps towards Viconia or Drizzt.
In BG2, there is an entire quest about slavery, and indeed is a social issues of these days as well.
OK the writing doesn't allow every possibility, but how could it? The writers did what they thought was the best, and imo they did a very good job. The writing could have been done better? Of course, everything could have been done better.
So in dont get all this noise. It is a roleplaying game. Roleplay.
Wesboi criticizing the hamfisted shoehorning of minorities has nothing to do with being "pro-white". Since when is the caucasian race a bad thing anyway? Are you a racist to caucasians or is white just the new progressive buzzword of the day?
Regardless the problem is when people "like you" try to white-knight champion a community you are not part of and end up just making them look bad. Most trans gamers I have heard of in various forums hate how beamdog tried to represent them as a token.
You miss my point.
It's a stupid name that arouses no interest, has no recognisible resonance, yet for some reason it has dialog choices attached.
Better writing would have come up with a name that prompted the interest.
Somebody mentioned there is a character in another game called "Pox" or maybe "Plague", it makes sense to ask about that as a name.
Once again poor writing is being defended by saying there is player agency to overlook the poor writing.
For me personally the name "Mizhena" makes much sense to ask about that as a name, just as Pox in PST.
In Russian, "zhena" - "жена" means a wife, and going deeper in times, it originates from "zhenshina" - "женщина", which means "woman". While "Mi" at the start is associated with M in "muzchina", which means "man".
I know that is the same for other eastern european languages.
I would bring another example here.
Yoshimo. This means nothing in English. But in Chinese it means "cat". So people immediately associate Yoshimo with a far-east. And yes, much more people in the world know and recognize Chinese than Russian. But the nature of these names stay the same. And yes, you can say that Yoshimo hails from Kara-Tur, a region roughly, but not precisely, equivalent to 14th-15th century China/Japan. But there's a Russia-like region in Faerun, - Rashemen (and Minsc is pronounced as the capital of Belarus).
So I will never see the poor writing in this name, I will never see a stupid name here. Instead I, personally, immediately saw that the name Mizhena makes sense, considering her story.
Most memorable person in any I.engine had to be reekwind the smelly git.
So translate the names so it means something.
From what you are saying, the name translates as "man-wife" or "man-woman" into English from Russian?
Which could well prompt a question about origins.
And if Russian is the inspiration for the name because of what it means in Russian, why the answer about letters from different languages that mean something to her?
Yoshimo, doesn't mean anything in English, but "Yoshi" had at the time become well known from the Mario Bros. I would say that's far more the inspiration for the name than the Chinese for cat. And well known enough to be associated with the region which was the writers' intent.
Minsc, obvious, and works the same way.
Those two examples work surely both in English, Russian and other languages because they reference globally known names.
People, regardless of language spoken, get the message.
"I was born a dude, but I want to be a chick. So one day I decided to wear a dress and everyone supported me yay! Btw I made up my name from different languages cause I felt like it."
That is literally her entire storyline. She doesn't talk about why she chose a non-magic transition, why she is a Tempus cleric or anything regarding her name by languages.
No fleshing out, no questing, no party-joining, no dialogue options, no romance... just an abrupt confession with an abrupt end from a strange "minor" cleric merchant. I call it bad/lazy writing (aka tokenism).
For what it's worth, people in D&D speak Common, not English, so naturally these names would sound different to them. Minsc would not necessarily seem like a meaningful name at all to a person in Faerun, because there is no Minsk and no Belarus in the Forgotten Realms. Mizhena could just as easily sound interesting or strange to someone in Faerun as Minsc or Yoshimo, because Faerunian names, unlike the Common tongue, aren't translated into English. Otherwise they'd have names like Crazy Horse instead of Thaxll'ssillyia--usually, across RL cultures, names have clear meanings, but English incorporates a lot of foreign names whose meanings are little known (Brian means "hill," but that's not well-known).
In a word, just because a name sounds normal or unusual to us doesn't mean it sounds normal or unusual to people in a different universe (Faerun) speaking a different language (Common).
But again, we're still talking about Mizhena, even though it's just rehashing the same arguments we've all read a hundred times before.
In the 12th century there was a monk called John Irenicus who was condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as a heretic.
1166 A council met under the presidency of the emperor Manuel Comnenus to address the interpretation of John 14.28: “My father is greater than I.” Demetrius of Lampe, a Roman (Byzantine) diplomat recently returned from the West, raised the issue to the emperor’s attention. Demetrius ridiculed the way the verse was interpreted there: Christ was inferior to his father in his humanity, but equal in his divinity. The emperor thought the Western interpretation made good sense. Eventually, he called a council to settle the matter. The council met on March 2. The following anathemas were directed against Constantine the Bulgarian, formerly Metropolitan of Corfu, and John Irenicus, by a synod in 1166. They are included in the Synodicon of Orthodoxy (see year 842).
(38) Constantine the Bulgarian, who says that “My father is greater than I” refers only to Christ's human nature, taken in abstraction; whereas the Fathers use such an abstraction only to explain statements implying servitude or ignorance, and explain the statement "My father is greater than I" in various ways, one of which is that the statement refers to the fact that Christ's human nature retained its properties in the hypostatic union;
(39) those who agree with Constantine of Bulgaria;
(40) John Irenicus, who held the same view.
http://www.geocities.ws/Heartland/Pines/7224/History/chrono12.htm
Irenicus has become a just a name for many gamers, they don't look for any extra meaning in it. Mizhena stays as just a name for many gamers as well, but if people really begin wondering what sense does it have, they can find an answer.
"But again, we're still talking about Mizhena, even though it's just rehashing the same arguments we've all read a hundred times before."
There are differences of opinion so of course the discussions will carry on. If everybody agreed, nothing to discuss.
Though I have learnt something new here.
Mizhena means or suggests "man-wife" or "man-woman" in Russian.
Well that would have gone down a treat had it been translated.
In the comment you quoted I replied to UnderstandMouseMagic on the subject of her name.
You're sayng that it's a big thing Mizhena 1) isn't fleshed out, doesn't have 2) questing, 3) party-joining, 4) dialogue options, 5) romance. Let's look at these points, although it has been done several times already.
1) this character doesn't differ much from any other merchant/cleric/minor NPC you meet in Baldur's Gate in terms of the number of lines she has. Again, her introduction is standard for IE games. There was no particular reason to make it different just only because of her sex. So this argument is invalid.
With the next patch Mizhena will be more "fleshed out", though. It's a decision by the company and is in the same line new content is appearing with some patches.
2) Mizhena is involved in several quests in SoD, one of them defining one of the factors the folks in Baldur's Gate will believe your main character in the end. So this argument is not valid at all.
3) If you request to make Mizhena an NPC who can enter your party, then this request is no different to request to make other NPCs joinable, in BG1, BG2 and SoD. There're tons of NPCs who fans would like to see in their party, and there can be no evidence Mizhena is somehow different. Why, for example, there're no joinable good dwarfs in BG2? So this argument is invalid as well.
4) As covered in my comment about Pox from PST, and as covered by many posters on this forum about other minor NPCs in BG1 and BG2, dialogue options of Mizhena are no particularly short or abrupt. So this argument is invalid, again.
5) If you request to make Mizhena romanceable, than, just as in the case of joinable NPCs, this request is no different to request to make other NPCs romanceable. I'm sure there're people who want to romance NPCs who are party members but not romanceable. Think about Alora. And I'm sure there're people who want to romance minor NPCs. Think about Delainy from the Werefolves island. There was no particular reason to make Mizhena romanceable just only because of her sex.
All in all, it's OK to wish for more content for Mizhena. But it's just like it's OK to wish for more content for the Hidden, for example (yay, a romanceable Illithid NPC).
Or for Tamoko. Why can't we take her to the party?
It's OK to wish for a mod to make Mizhena a joinable NPC, even a romanceable figure.
But it's not OK to DEMAND that exactly one NPC should have the same amount of content as Jaheira, Aerie or Edwin.
It's the decision which is being made by developers during the game creating process.
And it's not OK to constantly accuse writers of not doing this and not that. Because, actually, there's a myriad of things you can accuse writers of any product, of any movie, game, or even a book, of not doing the way you want it. All people are different and have their own views. It's normal.
The character does differ from other minor characters, being the first trans by choice character in BG saga history. Like it or not, we don't yet live in a world where a trans doesn't stand out. Expecting all criticism/praise to be amplified on any standout character is a no-brainer Quests about HER (him?), not about the Hero of Baldur's gate. Perhaps giving her some of Safana's "empowerment"? Yet again mysteriously forgetting the one major difference between Mizhena and every other NPC in BG history. You have a much bigger reason to make Mizhena joinable though. Much of the criticism, so called "hatred", dissatisfaction etc leading to inevitable profit loss may have been avoided by doing this simple change I am willing to bet on it. Heck beamdog didn't even have to do it themselves, just provide fans some incentive and they will do it for free.
Sounds smarter than what actually happened demonizing the audience as "transphobic bigots" and inevitably losing customers. I have no idea about a pox or a pst btw (or I just suck at abbreviations?). What I can say is that no other npc (well except the ones in Nashkel) comes out of the closet lets then gives you no way of answering back other then "wow nice". Heck even the Nashkel closet dialogue allows an evil option and they are minor as hell.
So I guess this makes your argument Invalid? I just had to say that since you love labeling everything you disagree with as invalid lol
- Point 5) is covered by point 1).
- Tamoko was Sarevok's companion not yours, aka the enemy. Nor is Tamoko unique (Cynthea or whatever her name was is very similar to Tamoko)
- Yes it is OK to make demands, NPC changes, requests and criticism. If they are listened to it or not is another story entirely.
- Yes it is OK to accuse writers of doing XYZABC. All people have different views and tastes, however objectively there is a way and means of doing things that will appeal to most and gain the most productivity and profits. It is usually called "common sense"
Seems Beamdog has listened to people like me, rather than just the beamdog fans here. Trent's speech, the Minsc line removal and the new patch is all positive in my eyes. One small step in my ideal direction at the very least.
1) "Transphobic/bigot/combination of both/dinosaur/white/misogynist/other buzzwords" etc has already been used by beamdog fanboys, reviewers, bloggers, journos etc to dismiss dialogue criticism. So if you want to be technical, those are the culprits
2) However a former staffer who I shall not mention took the insulting of anyone critical of dialogue to a whole new level much worse than any holier-than-thou labellers imo by simply showing lack of care
"If people don’t like that, then too bad"
....The person who said this probably has a charisma of 3
3) Beamdog on the other hand isn't dumb enough to be so overt/insane, that will be business suicide. However they still dismissed dialogue criticism at first with some subtle rosy virtue signalling
"I find the controversy ridiculous. Yes, we have a transgendered character. I know a number of transgendered people and they are genuine, wonderful humans"
....Yes let's ignore potential bad writing for anyone who might be wonderful human beings!
All 3 instances were quite demonizing of the audience, yay for the useless history lesson. You already know of this @semiticgod so I have no idea why the question was even asked?
For the record I am trying my best to convince people who are salty about those 3 instances to give beamdog a chance and buy SoD since their outcry didn't fall on deaf ears. Some positive changes have already been made and the upcoming patch also sounds promising. I read something interesting regarding Mizhena intentions from another website I will post it here later. For now I need an aspirin this thread is cancer >.>
*FACEPALM*
/close thread.
Edit: however i never skip Irenicus dungeon, so my opinion is biased.
God knows this subject is vulnerable to generalizations. You've pointed this out yourself: in your case, the generalization you want to call attention to is the notion that all of Mizhena's critics are just "transphobic bigots." I agree that that's a wild oversimplification, and that it doesn't really contribute to the conversation.
But I don't want Mizhena's defenders to be stereotyped, either. We're not all loud-mouthed PC police and we don't all throw around wild accusations of prejudice. I don't know about the rest of the places you've been, but around here, basically none of Mizhena's defenders act that way. Same goes for Mizhena's critics around here. In general, Mizhena debates on this forum are relatively civil compared to the rest of the web.
That said, I do find it distressing that we keep circling back to this same subject. Over and over, it degenerates into the same old thing: instead of being a discussion where people try to contribute, it's a debate that people try to win.
All this controversy ever seems to do is make people unhappy.
More use of mental attributes in dialog that could sometimes change the outcome of a quest. While in the original saga there are perhaps only a handful of these for Wisdom and Intelligence. While Charisma and the reputation system has always been an annoyance, both for roleplaying purposes and gameplay, especially when playing evil. SoD didn't improve on that, but I doubt they could either.
The random special encounters are actually pretty unique and clever..Especially the dead magic zone encounter.
Zaviaks vision quest itself limits you to three charges, while there are like 8-10 of them you can spawn. There is replay value there..Unless you reload between each, but that could done in any rpg really.
Overall the expansion is pretty linear, so i agree there isn't quite as much fun to be had with replays..But the same could be said for Tales of the sword coast and Throne of Bhaal.
You say I am "out of arguments"? I have written mountains of text ffs and will continue that so how on earth did you come up with such a bizarre conclusion!?
......I even specifically said I will be back later (aka I need to sleep/relax). Obviously not something I would say if I was "out of arguments" as I would just permanently leave the thread if was?
Maybe just go back to facepalming yourself until you have something more constructive to add?
**edit: grum is right in his post below, I shouldn't fight fire with fire (I wasn't offended or anything but it is annoying). Tried my best to edit this post to be a little less trollish.**